SOOP, the rebranded AfreecaTV, have announced their next premier Brood War tournament. The AfreecaTV Starcraft League (ASL) has been rebranded as the SOOP StarCraft League (SSL), with the inaugural SSL 2024 Autumn tournament to be held during August 26-November 2.
The online qualifiers will be held during August 10-11, with 24 players qualifying for the main event (4 players seeded). The maps used will be Radeon, Apocalypse, and Retro.
The total prize money of ₩78,000,000 KRW and its distribution are identical to the previous ASL 17.
On July 27 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote: It can’t just be me who isn’t a massive fan of the rebrand?
Nonetheless more StarCraft carnage incoming can’t be a bad thing
It seems the rebrand has been accompanied by a renewed aversion to foreign-made maps...I had a conversation with one of the top foreign Brood War mapmakers who says he was essentially told by the power that be: "foreign-made maps have no place in Korean Brood War"
On July 27 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote: It can’t just be me who isn’t a massive fan of the rebrand?
Nonetheless more StarCraft carnage incoming can’t be a bad thing
It seems the rebrand has been accompanied by a renewed aversion to foreign-made maps...I had a conversation with one of the top foreign Brood War mapmakers who says he was essentially told by the power that be: "foreign-made maps have no place in Korean Brood War"
This makes no sense unless the people in charge are just racist. o.O IIrc, foreign entries were usually some of the better maps being considered for a season.
On July 27 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote: It can’t just be me who isn’t a massive fan of the rebrand?
Nonetheless more StarCraft carnage incoming can’t be a bad thing
It seems the rebrand has been accompanied by a renewed aversion to foreign-made maps...I had a conversation with one of the top foreign Brood War mapmakers who says he was essentially told by the power that be: "foreign-made maps have no place in Korean Brood War"
Yes, this was said via 910. I think the rebranding has nothing to do with what was said to me. It’ll probably be the same thing with fresh look, whatever that entails. Let’s see what this crazy map pool brings us.
On July 27 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote: It can’t just be me who isn’t a massive fan of the rebrand?
Nonetheless more StarCraft carnage incoming can’t be a bad thing
It seems the rebrand has been accompanied by a renewed aversion to foreign-made maps...I had a conversation with one of the top foreign Brood War mapmakers who says he was essentially told by the power that be: "foreign-made maps have no place in Korean Brood War"
Love to see nationalism in esports in 2024 -_-
I get the korean scene but burned by blizzard but how the FUCK are they still not trying to work with the foreign scene at this point lol. A good map is a good map and there are so few great map makers left on the scene wtf lol
On July 27 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote: It can’t just be me who isn’t a massive fan of the rebrand?
Nonetheless more StarCraft carnage incoming can’t be a bad thing
It seems the rebrand has been accompanied by a renewed aversion to foreign-made maps...I had a conversation with one of the top foreign Brood War mapmakers who says he was essentially told by the power that be: "foreign-made maps have no place in Korean Brood War"
Love to see nationalism in esports in 2024 -_-
I get the korean scene but burned by blizzard but how the FUCK are they still not trying to work with the foreign scene at this point lol. A good map is a good map and there are so few great map makers left on the scene wtf lol
Agreed, especially with this season's very uninspiring map pool... they should be seriously trying to work with foreign map makers.
Awesome. My work is sending me to SK for 3 weeks, conveniently during this. I'm going to keep an eye on the schedule to see if I can catch some of this live while I'm there.
On July 30 2024 01:56 Impervious wrote: Awesome. My work is sending me to SK for 3 weeks, conveniently during this. I'm going to keep an eye on the schedule to see if I can catch some of this live while I'm there.
On July 30 2024 00:34 Mutaller wrote: Forget FlaSh, Soulkey going into his bonjwa era
Not sure how likely that is. This map pool seems designed specifically to stop a ZvZ final from happening again lol. If SK can make the finals again with these maps he truly is S-class.
On July 27 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote: It can’t just be me who isn’t a massive fan of the rebrand?
Nonetheless more StarCraft carnage incoming can’t be a bad thing
It seems the rebrand has been accompanied by a renewed aversion to foreign-made maps...I had a conversation with one of the top foreign Brood War mapmakers who says he was essentially told by the power that be: "foreign-made maps have no place in Korean Brood War"
Love to see nationalism in esports in 2024 -_-
I get the korean scene but burned by blizzard but how the FUCK are they still not trying to work with the foreign scene at this point lol. A good map is a good map and there are so few great map makers left on the scene wtf lol
Agreed, especially with this season's very uninspiring map pool... they should be seriously trying to work with foreign map makers.
my thinking is that the language barrier is probably too much of a inconvenience with them to liaise and fix balance/bug changes with non-korean speakers
I assume that after the qualifiers on Aug 11, we will get a full schedule shortly after? I'm going to be in Korea around the end of the tournament and want to buy tickets!
Missed opportunity for them to have Gwyneth Paltrow sponsor the whole thing 'SOOP by GOOP', maybe add scented candles to the player booths, could've been good.
On July 30 2024 23:24 Creager wrote: Missed opportunity for them to have Gwyneth Paltrow sponsor the whole thing 'SOOP by GOOP', maybe add scented candles to the player booths, could've been good.
Please no "This Smells like my V*****" candle scent.
On July 30 2024 23:24 Creager wrote: Missed opportunity for them to have Gwyneth Paltrow sponsor the whole thing 'SOOP by GOOP', maybe add scented candles to the player booths, could've been good.
Hahahaha
Trying to think of another word that rhymes to continue this chain and I think ‘poop’ will just take this to unnecessarily dark places.
On July 30 2024 00:34 Mutaller wrote: Forget FlaSh, Soulkey going into his bonjwa era
In the past 3 months Soulkey has played 17 Ultimate Battle type series, winning 15 of them, losing only twice with close scores (3-4 Snow and 4-5 Royal).
Of the 15 he won, he showed utter dominance against everyone, including Light, Snow, Rush, Royal, Mini, with regular scores of 8-1, 7-2 or 6-3. In many of them he was just up like 5-0 or 5-1 in the first place and the other player probably got 1 2 games back as consolation.
His win rate in the past 3 months against: Snow 64%, Rush 74%, Light 65%, Royal 66%, Mini 71%. Only Bisu comes close to 50/50 with him. Maybe Flash if he comes back.
I've watched his ZvP with frustration. The guy is impossible to break on 3 bases in like 80+% of his games. Navigating the lategame in the required way is a feat I've only seen Snow pull off. Bisu is also quietly the most stately macro beast on the ladder in the matchup. He's not afraid to go Archon Dark Archon Storm 200/200 and win off slow steady chip with reavers or his gateway strike squads. But to get there without giving Soulkey an economic power window requires a lot of really slippery tells and leads.
On August 01 2024 08:14 ThunderJunk wrote: Good point about Soulkey.
I've watched his ZvP with frustration. The guy is impossible to break on 3 bases in like 80+% of his games. Navigating the lategame in the required way is a feat I've only seen Snow pull off. Bisu is also quietly the most stately macro beast on the ladder in the matchup. He's not afraid to go Archon Dark Archon Storm 200/200 and win off slow steady chip with reavers or his gateway strike squads. But to get there without giving Soulkey an economic power window requires a lot of really slippery tells and leads.
During mudfestival offline tourney vs Bisu, he showcased his super lategame ZvP. He deviates from other macro zergs like larva and plays in very cost efficient manner despite being aggressive. Compared to larva who builds a lot of thing and then throws the kitchen sink. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f9epWa_Tgc)
On August 02 2024 15:52 RowdierBob wrote: Soulkey’s mass lurker, ling, defiled play late game ZvP is so good. I think Snow is the only P capable of beating him in the long game.
Problem is, I wish Soulkey was a mega-charismatic performer because then him smashing it would be great sport. As it is I feel his dominance comes a bit at the expense of the spectacle, because he doesn't wear it like, say FBH or Larva would/did.
So staked, all the very top players have already qualified, with the exception of Flash who didnt played. Lets hope for players like Speed, Mong, Motive, Sacrsi, Ample, Shine, Action, Ruin, Ss1nZ, 815, ZeLoT, YSC, Shuttle, ggaemo and yoon to qualify on day 2. And to some extent, beast, PianO, Mighty, Rich, soso, Hm, Spire, Bishop, Leta and hyun
Edit: i also hope for an upset like ForGG, MC, firebathero, Midas or even Pusan lol
On August 10 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote: So staked, all the very top players have already qualified, with the exception of Flash who didnt played. Lets hope for players like Speed, Mong, Motive, Sacrsi, Ample, Shine, Action, Ruin, Ss1nZ, 815, ZeLoT, YSC, Shuttle, ggaemo and yoon to qualify on day 2. And to some extent, beast, PianO, Mighty, Rich, soso, Hm, Spire, Bishop, Leta and hyun
Edit: i also hope for an upset like ForGG, MC, firebathero, Midas or even Pusan lol
Forgg lost in the first round vs an amateur. Shuttle lost vs Piano which is slightly surprising because PianO is rusty and didn't prepare that much. But then again, Shuttle is currently probably at the lowest activity he's ever been. Not in terms of how much he streams but how much he actually plays. Mong was eliminated by Bono which... doesn't come as a surprise because Bono is very strong in TvT. Mighty and Ssinz are banned from participating.
Highest odds I'd place on: Action, Speed, Ruin, Shine, Motive, Sacsri, Mong, Beast, Shuttle, Scan, Ssak, Quickly(ACS winner so gets a final).
But it really depends on who they get in their group. If any of the above get grouped together it will all change.
Edit: Just noticed I forgot Ample, HiyA, Killer in my predictions... eh we'll see tomorrow. There's probably going to be an upset qualification in either Noel, Rich or Quickly.
Yeah i also forgot sSak and Killer. They should be able to qualify. Thing is, i feel like they are the kind of players who almost have no chance to reach RO8. So thats less interesting. As oppose to the likes of Action, Shine, Sacsri and Ample. And even if they never reached a RO8, players like Ruin, Motive and Speed can expect to go far also
On August 10 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote: So staked, all the very top players have already qualified, with the exception of Flash who didnt played. Lets hope for players like Speed, Mong, Motive, Sacrsi, Ample, Shine, Action, Ruin, Ss1nZ, 815, ZeLoT, YSC, Shuttle, ggaemo and yoon to qualify on day 2. And to some extent, beast, PianO, Mighty, Rich, soso, Hm, Spire, Bishop, Leta and hyun
Edit: i also hope for an upset like ForGG, MC, firebathero, Midas or even Pusan lol
Forgg lost in the first round vs an amateur. Shuttle lost vs Piano which is slightly surprising because PianO is rusty and didn't prepare that much. But then again, Shuttle is currently probably at the lowest activity he's ever been. Not in terms of how much he streams but how much he actually plays. Mong was eliminated by Bono which... doesn't come as a surprise because Bono is very strong in TvT. Mighty and Ssinz are banned from participating.
Highest odds I'd place on: Action, Speed, Ruin, Shine, Motive, Sacsri, Mong, Beast, Shuttle, Scan, Ssak, Quickly(ACS winner so gets a final).
But it really depends on who they get in their group. If any of the above get grouped together it will all change.
Edit: Just noticed I forgot Ample, HiyA, Killer in my predictions... eh we'll see tomorrow. There's probably going to be an upset qualification in either Noel, Rich or Quickly.
Why are Mighty and Ss1nz banned from participating??
Do i read the bracket right with my man lecaf OZ - Sky qualifying?
Edit: i do not lol, I checked when the final match were 0-0 and thought both advanced. Still a good run
If you're talking about 조하늘, that's certainly not Sky. Sky got caught matchfixing in 2017 so he's banned. This guy also played in the ACS qualifiers so it's an Amateur (Also Sky is only 하늘)
On August 10 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote: So staked, all the very top players have already qualified, with the exception of Flash who didnt played. Lets hope for players like Speed, Mong, Motive, Sacrsi, Ample, Shine, Action, Ruin, Ss1nZ, 815, ZeLoT, YSC, Shuttle, ggaemo and yoon to qualify on day 2. And to some extent, beast, PianO, Mighty, Rich, soso, Hm, Spire, Bishop, Leta and hyun
Edit: i also hope for an upset like ForGG, MC, firebathero, Midas or even Pusan lol
Forgg lost in the first round vs an amateur. Shuttle lost vs Piano which is slightly surprising because PianO is rusty and didn't prepare that much. But then again, Shuttle is currently probably at the lowest activity he's ever been. Not in terms of how much he streams but how much he actually plays. Mong was eliminated by Bono which... doesn't come as a surprise because Bono is very strong in TvT. Mighty and Ssinz are banned from participating.
Highest odds I'd place on: Action, Speed, Ruin, Shine, Motive, Sacsri, Mong, Beast, Shuttle, Scan, Ssak, Quickly(ACS winner so gets a final).
But it really depends on who they get in their group. If any of the above get grouped together it will all change.
Edit: Just noticed I forgot Ample, HiyA, Killer in my predictions... eh we'll see tomorrow. There's probably going to be an upset qualification in either Noel, Rich or Quickly.
Why are Mighty and Ss1nz banned from participating??
They smurfed on someone else's account in an amateur tournament If I am correct.
Sad hearing about IntoTheRain, he looked healthy always.
Is FlaSh scared to play on qualifiers because he's not in his former form and afraid to get eliminated and ppl will never forget if that happens? There's no other explanation.
Not a fun explanation, but spitting facts. He obviously has a lot to lose at this point, and judging by the time he took to get back to BW again after the crypto scandal, when his reputation is on the line, Flash is nowhere to be found.
Day 2 Groups are starting. Noteworthy names in the available groups as of this moment: Group 1: YSC and Hani/Soso..... this group seems.... too easy for either of these two... extremely understacked group. Group 2: Shine and Piano. Again a group with very few challenges for the two chosen two. Piano has a disgustingly good TvZ, While Shine has the better track record. Piano can take this and knock Shine out, but the odds are in favor of Shine. Edit: ZeloT is in group 2. missed him. Group 3: not available yet.
PianO is extremely under-rated, always been, but he can't be a contender. ZeLoT and Shine, with their unique style, are likely to upset or, at least, create some fun games. I hope to see Shine advances, if not, go ZeLoT.
Any insights from our Korean folk here about Flash not playing? Seems he’d easily do it. Is he worried about not feeling good enough yet to compete or about the public reaction he’ll cop coming out of the crypto scandal?
Looks like Quickly the ACS winner blew a huge lead to YSC. I can't believe how many fights he took from an unfavorable position in that game. It's like he kept spliting his army and shoving them up a ramp.
As usual the groups in day 2 are dogshit once again.
How come YSC kept getting placed in group 1 with no other competitors to play the ACS winner every season?
Horang2 and Sea always in the same group and probably play each other in the finals
How come Shuttle and sSak are in the same group? Are you seriously telling me one of them is ranked lower than all the seeds of the 11 other groups? There is no fucking way Shuttle and sSak can't be the top seed of the groups where YSC, Speed, P: Ruin, Horang2, Beast or Calm are the top seeds.
On August 11 2024 13:44 Peeano wrote: Bag-of-Builds is through! Hellll yes. Also lol at Piano, who had unbeatable TvZ, getting 0-2ed by Zelot.
I think most of us would agree that ZeLoT 2-0 PianO is expected...
Then I doubt you have an idea how insane PianO's TvZ was or either you're very up-to-date on how rusty Piano has become (and that's not disrespecting ZeLoT).
Ive always been a fan of PianO myself. But hes inactive for half a decade now, only showing up for ASL which he always fail to qualify. He always put on some great games though. But there is no way he favorite against ZeLoT. He is active, in great form, and his ZvsT always been scary.
It's clear qualifier brackets are not completely randomized and by tier as they should, but it is what it is... In general the best players still have favorable odds, so we'll get to see the best + a clown (or two) from the obvious rigged brackets.
Qualifiers day 2 results: Group 1: huro - Hani Group 2: Shine - ZeLoT Group 3: Absolute - Sacrsi Group 4: Mind - Yoon Group 5: Killer - Speed Group 6: Mong - Scan Group 7: Action - yabsab Group 8: Sea - Horang2 Group 9: Motive - Leta Group 10: beast - free Group 11: HiyA - sSak Group 12: Calm - NoeL (wico'1127)
Sea beat Horang2 in their rigged group (again) to qualify for ASL. Horang2's play is sus af. It was like this last season as well: they put Sea on one side of the bracket with only amateurs to beat, and put Horang2 on the other side and have him clear out all the semi-notable names, then lose to Sea in the finals.
Players who have qualified: YSC, Shine, Sacsri, Mind, Speed, Scan, Action, Sea, Motive (1-0 up and very likely), Free
Shuttle and sSak battling it out in group 11 Calm and Hyun in group 12
On August 10 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote: So staked, all the very top players have already qualified, with the exception of Flash who didnt played. Lets hope for players like Speed, Mong, Motive, Sacrsi, Ample, Shine, Action, Ruin, Ss1nZ, 815, ZeLoT, YSC, Shuttle, ggaemo and yoon to qualify on day 2. And to some extent, beast, PianO, Mighty, Rich, soso, Hm, Spire, Bishop, Leta and hyun
Edit: i also hope for an upset like ForGG, MC, firebathero, Midas or even Pusan lol
Forgg lost in the first round vs an amateur. Shuttle lost vs Piano which is slightly surprising because PianO is rusty and didn't prepare that much. But then again, Shuttle is currently probably at the lowest activity he's ever been. Not in terms of how much he streams but how much he actually plays. Mong was eliminated by Bono which... doesn't come as a surprise because Bono is very strong in TvT. Mighty and Ssinz are banned from participating.
Highest odds I'd place on: Action, Speed, Ruin, Shine, Motive, Sacsri, Mong, Beast, Shuttle, Scan, Ssak, Quickly(ACS winner so gets a final).
But it really depends on who they get in their group. If any of the above get grouped together it will all change.
Edit: Just noticed I forgot Ample, HiyA, Killer in my predictions... eh we'll see tomorrow. There's probably going to be an upset qualification in either Noel, Rich or Quickly.
Why are Mighty and Ss1nz banned from participating??
They smurfed on someone else's account in an amateur tournament If I am correct.
Oof.. That's one of the dumbest things they could ever do..
On August 11 2024 16:13 DiMiaN wrote: Qualifiers day 2 results: Group 1: huro - Hani Group 2: Shine - ZeLoT Group 3: Absolute - Sacrsi Group 4: Mind - Yoon Group 5: Killer - Speed Group 6: Mong - Scan Group 7: Action - yabsab Group 8: Sea - Horang2 Group 9: Motive - Leta Group 10: beast - free Group 11: Group 12:
On August 11 2024 16:15 TMNT wrote: Sea beat Horang2 in their rigged group (again) to qualify for ASL. Horang2's play is sus af. It was like this last season as well: they put Sea on one side of the bracket with only amateurs to beat, and put Horang2 on the other side and have him clear out all the semi-notable names, then lose to Sea in the finals.
Players who have qualified: YSC, Shine, Sacsri, Mind, Speed, Scan, Action, Sea, Motive (1-0 up and very likely), Free
Shuttle and sSak battling it out in group 11 Calm and Hyun in group 12
Its NoeL vs Calm. NoeL is very underrated but will he beat calm?
Also these are the worsr and most obviously rigged groups in years. They did an absolutely terrible job and screwed some real talent out of the tournament.
Shuttle actually dropped out to Hiya in the semi finals. Not like he would beat sSak if he went to the finals, but can't complain much about group when you can't beat Piano yesterday and Hiya today. To be fair this was coming, as he barely played BW since the last ASL, spending most of the time running the university with Terror.
In the last group, Calm probably will lose another qualifier finals. Edit: yes he did. Noel has his first ASL appearance.
On August 11 2024 17:54 TMNT wrote: Shuttle actually dropped out to Hiya in the semi finals. Not like he would beat sSak if he went to the finals, but can't complain much about group when you can't beat Piano yesterday and Hiya today. To be fair this was coming, as he barely played BW since the last ASL, spending most of the time running the university with Terror.
In the last group, Calm probably will lose another qualifier finals. Edit: yes he did. Noel has his first ASL appearance.
On August 11 2024 17:54 TMNT wrote: Shuttle actually dropped out to Hiya in the semi finals. Not like he would beat sSak if he went to the finals, but can't complain much about group when you can't beat Piano yesterday and Hiya today. To be fair this was coming, as he barely played BW since the last ASL, spending most of the time running the university with Terror.
In the last group, Calm probably will lose another qualifier finals. Edit: yes he did. Noel has his first ASL appearance.
heck yeah. i gave noel the highest odds out of the amateurs because he has improved the most out of the entire amateur group. Promise has been practicing the hardest but he just didnt grow that much.
Motive, Speed, Scan and Sacsri qualified from the original moonlight proleague regular group. glad to see them all on again, and Motive foe the first time.
About Noel..TvZ is his weakest, his PvT is very good and his tvt is a bit neutral.
On August 11 2024 16:15 TMNT wrote: Sea beat Horang2 in their rigged group (again) to qualify for ASL. Horang2's play is sus af. It was like this last season as well: they put Sea on one side of the bracket with only amateurs to beat, and put Horang2 on the other side and have him clear out all the semi-notable names, then lose to Sea in the finals.
No offense, but to me this sounds a bit too conspiratorial. The brackets are cleary rigged and imho it would be much better if they were transparent about how they make them. However, I don't get why they would put in extra effort for Sea specifically, especially the notion of match-fixing by Horang2. Can you elaborate or back up your claim?
I'm really glad to see Scan make it through and also a new face with NoeL. I hope he can keep his nerves in the Ro24 because I feel like this is what always gets the newcomers.
On August 11 2024 16:15 TMNT wrote: Sea beat Horang2 in their rigged group (again) to qualify for ASL. Horang2's play is sus af. It was like this last season as well: they put Sea on one side of the bracket with only amateurs to beat, and put Horang2 on the other side and have him clear out all the semi-notable names, then lose to Sea in the finals.
No offense, but to me this sounds a bit too conspiratorial. The brackets are cleary rigged and imho it would be much better if they were transparent about how they make them. However, I don't get why they would put in extra effort for Sea specifically, especially the notion of match-fixing by Horang2. Can you elaborate or back up your claim?
I'm really glad to see Scan make it through and also a new face with NoeL. I hope he can keep his nerves in the Ro24 because I feel like this is what always gets the newcomers.
Because it has been THREE season in a row now that Sea repeatedly beat Horang2 in the finals of day 2. And in all three times the Horang2 side of the bracket is the more difficult one, while Sea faced almost no notable player in his side.
Horang2 is also the better player judging from his online play and he also practiced more, sometimes getting in the top 10 ladder. But at the same time he's also the one who cares less about getting into ASL while Sea is kind of Afreeca's cash cow. Sea Britney and Terror are the 3 big Afreeca streamers who are also ex-pros, so getting them into ASL generates viewers, narratives and therefore, money. But let's be real only Sea has the ability to qualify out of them 3, so there it is.
Lets be fair. Sea is considered inactive, and his multitasking and reactivity shows just that. But the guy is skilled, and hes smart. He has decent macro and his decision making are fast and often correct. From my perspective, if he practice between the qualifiers and the RO28, which I assume he will, he has some small chances of getting to the RO16
Hell yeah, I'm glad to see Scan and especially Motive - I'm expecting a lot from this guy. Disappointed to see rigged results where Sea squeezes once again and against same protoss lol, maybe they think this way he will attract viewership. No FlaSh really bummer, this year gonna pass without him once again... And BTW, are they really going to call SSL Autumun 2024, SSL Spring 2025 from now on? That sucks compared we had ASL with numbers.
On August 11 2024 23:38 outscar wrote: Hell yeah, I'm glad to see Scan and especially Motive - I'm expecting a lot from this guy. Disappointed to see rigged results where Sea squeezes once again and against same protoss lol, maybe they think this way he will attract viewership. No FlaSh really bummer, this year gonna pass without him once again... And BTW, are they really going to call SSL Autumun 2024, SSL Spring 2025 from now on? That sucks compared we had ASL with numbers.
This is why it will always be ASL to me
ASL Season 18 qualifiers just finished! Now waiting for the main tournament to start.
On August 11 2024 23:38 outscar wrote: Hell yeah, I'm glad to see Scan and especially Motive - I'm expecting a lot from this guy. Disappointed to see rigged results where Sea squeezes once again and against same protoss lol, maybe they think this way he will attract viewership. No FlaSh really bummer, this year gonna pass without him once again... And BTW, are they really going to call SSL Autumun 2024, SSL Spring 2025 from now on? That sucks compared we had ASL with numbers.
This is why it will always be ASL to me
ASL Season 18 qualifiers just finished! Now waiting for the main tournament to start.
My thought also.. we can call it ASL 18 Also, let's see the new id of Rush
Horang2 has always been very shaky PvT. So while the draw itself is hella sus, i don't think he would matchfix. Would need to see the actual games but it s not unreasonable to expect sea to just win tvp vs horang2
Sad to see killer not make it, he looked to be training really hard. Glad to see so many new and younger faces though. Going to be a tough season for Zergs with this map pool :\
On August 12 2024 01:38 TornadoSteve wrote: YSC , free, Sea, Action and sSak are all in pretty bad form at the moment. I hope they practice and step up their game in the following weeks.
Action in a slump is still the best out of those 5 players. action > ssak > free > sea/ysc Action and Ssak play A LOT. Despite playing a lot they are still in a slump. Maybe they are in a slump because they play too much.
also quick look at who are currently the best performers on ELOBOARD rankings: + Show Spoiler +
Also just realized flash decided not to participate even though he could have qualified easily (definitely could make Ro8 at least, but iffy on going past that in current form it seems?). Maybe he only wants to return if he knows for sure his skill level is good enough to win?
On August 12 2024 01:26 End1ess wrote: almost half Terran in RO24. are they going to put 2t+p+z in each bracket or we will see 4t dog fight?
I think Ro24 groups are drawn to split up players by "rank" (not sure if they ONLY use ASL ranking or also take into account other tournaments/matches). So they'll do like a top tier player, 2 mid tier, and 1 bottom tier per group generally. Don't think they factor race that much if at all, but generally it spreads out well.
On August 12 2024 01:26 End1ess wrote: almost half Terran in RO24. are they going to put 2t+p+z in each bracket or we will see 4t dog fight?
I think Ro24 groups are drawn to split up players by "rank" (not sure if they ONLY use ASL ranking or also take into account other tournaments/matches). So they'll do like a top tier player, 2 mid tier, and 1 bottom tier per group generally. Don't think they factor race that much if at all, but generally it spreads out well.
Exactly
Something like T1 Light / Rain / Bisu / ZerO / Mini / Rush T2 JyJ / sOrry / Action / Shine / Mind / BeSt T3 barracks / Stork / Jaedong / Sacsri / sSak / Sea T4 Motive / Scan / YSC / NoeL / free / Speed
I think Stork should be tier 1-2 given his current performances. Btw Noel is 1127, yes? Maybe some mods can update the SOSPA page and/or the Liquipedia page so that they refer to the same person. 1127
Of course, any players who played in ASL in the past have automatically ASL points. In fact, thats how they create the RO28 in every season. Since they finished top4 last season, as you probably know, they are seeded onto the RO16 for this season.
ZerO is likely to be in a goup with YSC, sOrry and barracks. I think he'll make it with sOrry. But i hope he won't, and we get to see barracks in the RO16
It's kind of wild to me that Mini has almost 2x the points that Bisu has. Here's a Protoss that totally leans into the early game because his probe micro is actually even better than Bisu. I'm just waiting for the day that Mini can actually make more than 40 probes in PvT in a game he isn't going carriers off a lucky early game lead... and I admit wholeheartedly - he gets lucky a lot because a lot of it isn't luck... I just don't ever see him going big macro.
He'll need to be able to go big macro if he wants to take down Soulkey. Sharp has what he needs to hard stop Mini just like Soulkey does, but where Soulkey is reliably indomitable in the early game, Sharp is just extremely good at the early game.
Also, Motive beat Leta in a somewhat close series. He might make it to the ro16 if he draws lucky groups.
I'm stoked to see Motive finally in an ASL. With all the practice he's been getting with Flash, his game sense and fundamentals are doubtless boosted pretty well.
On August 13 2024 03:47 ThunderJunk wrote: It's kind of wild to me that Mini has almost 2x the points that Bisu has. Here's a Protoss that totally leans into the early game because his probe micro is actually even better than Bisu. I'm just waiting for the day that Mini can actually make more than 40 probes in PvT in a game he isn't going carriers off a lucky early game lead... and I admit wholeheartedly - he gets lucky a lot because a lot of it isn't luck... I just don't ever see him going big macro.
He'll need to be able to go big macro if he wants to take down Soulkey. Sharp has what he needs to hard stop Mini just like Soulkey does, but where Soulkey is reliably indomitable in the early game, Sharp is just extremely good at the early game.
Just my 2 cts.
First of all, Mini has an ASL win, and 3 ASL finals if im not mistaken. While Bisu has never reached an ASL finals. Also, saying that Mini can't macro is completely ridiculous. I do like Bisu, but Mini is the better player of the 2 nowadays and has been for quite some time now.
He guys, will be in Korea last week of September. First time attending and want to be sure I make it.
I see some comments that say the games take place on Monday and Tuesday, and that the venue is the jamsil coliseum venue, is this correct? Also, how complicated is it to get tickets? Want to get them with as much anticipation as possible.
On August 13 2024 04:49 Yeiem13 wrote: He guys, will be in Korea last week of September. First time attending and want to be sure I make it.
I see some comments that say the games take place on Monday and Tuesday, and that the venue is the jamsil coliseum venue, is this correct? Also, how complicated is it to get tickets? Want to get them with as much anticipation as possible.
I followed this guide on reddit and it was pretty simple! Just make sure you keep track of the schedule.
He'll need to be able to go big macro if he wants to take down Soulkey.
Don't think going big macro is the way to solve Soulkey, especially for the Protosses as late game PvZ is not in their favor.
Mini actually has the right approach: get an advantage in the early game and kill Zerg in the mid game. And to get an advantage in the early game, you need to be good at it and have a well executed plan.
Snow goes late game vs Soulkey a lot and gets destroyed regularly. And here's Bisu going super late vs Soulkey recently, on equal bases as well, but still couldn't take him down.
Its a sad discussion to have about BW, especially in 2024. At equal level, trying to kill a zerg late game with protoss is like trying to kill a protoss with terran early game. Extremely unlikely.
He'll need to be able to go big macro if he wants to take down Soulkey.
Don't think going big macro is the way to solve Soulkey, especially for the Protosses as late game PvZ is not in their favor.
Mini actually has the right approach: get an advantage in the early game and kill Zerg in the mid game. And to get an advantage in the early game, you need to be good at it and have a well executed plan.
Snow goes late game vs Soulkey a lot and gets destroyed regularly. And here's Bisu going super late vs Soulkey recently, on equal bases as well, but still couldn't take him down.
I mean... as P you do have to apply pressure and hopefully damage Zerg in the early-midgame if you want to play Zerg in the lategame. But once you get map control with storm, archon, dark archon, reaver - Bisu showed me games where that sort of latemax scenario is winnable against a top Zerg. It actually might have been Soulkey. It was before Larva won the ASL. In fact, Larva's main macro prep for that ASL was against Bisu. That was the ASL where Larva beat Mini 4-3 by defending well enough take it late and surviving 6 bespoke early-midgame aggression builds. Mini actually just proxy gated game 7 on Fighting Spirit because he knew he couldn't go late against Larva.
He'll need to be able to go big macro if he wants to take down Soulkey.
Don't think going big macro is the way to solve Soulkey, especially for the Protosses as late game PvZ is not in their favor.
Mini actually has the right approach: get an advantage in the early game and kill Zerg in the mid game. And to get an advantage in the early game, you need to be good at it and have a well executed plan.
Snow goes late game vs Soulkey a lot and gets destroyed regularly. And here's Bisu going super late vs Soulkey recently, on equal bases as well, but still couldn't take him down.
I mean... as P you do have to apply pressure and hopefully damage Zerg in the early-midgame if you want to play Zerg in the lategame. But once you get map control with storm, archon, dark archon, reaver - Bisu showed me games where that sort of latemax scenario is winnable against a top Zerg. It actually might have been Soulkey. It was before Larva won the ASL. In fact, Larva's main macro prep for that ASL was against Bisu. That was the ASL where Larva beat Mini 4-3 by defending well enough take it late and surviving 6 bespoke early-midgame aggression builds. Mini actually just proxy gated game 7 on Fighting Spirit because he knew he couldn't go late against Larva.
I mean of course it's winnable for Protoss at any state of the game including very late game. It's just they have the best chance to beat Zerg in the mid game (see pic below), so basing your strategy on that is the right approach. Let's face it: Protoss goes to late game vs Zerg because they can't kill them, not because they want to.
He'll need to be able to go big macro if he wants to take down Soulkey.
Don't think going big macro is the way to solve Soulkey, especially for the Protosses as late game PvZ is not in their favor.
Mini actually has the right approach: get an advantage in the early game and kill Zerg in the mid game. And to get an advantage in the early game, you need to be good at it and have a well executed plan.
Snow goes late game vs Soulkey a lot and gets destroyed regularly. And here's Bisu going super late vs Soulkey recently, on equal bases as well, but still couldn't take him down.
I mean... as P you do have to apply pressure and hopefully damage Zerg in the early-midgame if you want to play Zerg in the lategame. But once you get map control with storm, archon, dark archon, reaver - Bisu showed me games where that sort of latemax scenario is winnable against a top Zerg. It actually might have been Soulkey. It was before Larva won the ASL. In fact, Larva's main macro prep for that ASL was against Bisu. That was the ASL where Larva beat Mini 4-3 by defending well enough take it late and surviving 6 bespoke early-midgame aggression builds. Mini actually just proxy gated game 7 on Fighting Spirit because he knew he couldn't go late against Larva.
I mean of course it's winnable for Protoss at any state of the game including very late game. It's just they have the best chance to beat Zerg in the mid game (see pic below), so basing your strategy on that is the right approach. Let's face it: Protoss goes to late game vs Zerg because they can't kill them, not because they want to.
If you look closely on that chart, you'll see that games that go super late favor P at the highest MMR displayed.
I just think it's short-sighted to never play lategame PvZ because your build is so all-in in the midgame. Like, throwing in all-ins in the midgame will get you wins and keep a Z honest, but if you can't transition from heavy midgame pressure into later scenarios, Z knows they can just cut drones and survive and you'll kill yourself on their army. But like, being able to pull back after the pressure netted you 5 or 6 hydras more than you lost while smoothly transitioning to later scenarios against a Z is an important thing to be able to do.
Anything could happen, but if we got a Mini Soulkey finals, my money would be on 4-1 Soulkey.
On August 13 2024 11:28 TornadoSteve wrote: According to Liquipedia, RO24 are starting at the end of february 2025. Please tell me this is a mistake ?!
On August 13 2024 02:15 TornadoSteve wrote: Of course, any players who played in ASL in the past have automatically ASL points. In fact, thats how they create the RO28 in every season. Since they finished top4 last season, as you probably know, they are seeded onto the RO16 for this season.
Thanks for clarifying. I meant to ask, what are their ASL points? Cuz it's not listed in the NAMU website (I don't think...)
He'll need to be able to go big macro if he wants to take down Soulkey.
Don't think going big macro is the way to solve Soulkey, especially for the Protosses as late game PvZ is not in their favor.
Mini actually has the right approach: get an advantage in the early game and kill Zerg in the mid game. And to get an advantage in the early game, you need to be good at it and have a well executed plan.
Snow goes late game vs Soulkey a lot and gets destroyed regularly. And here's Bisu going super late vs Soulkey recently, on equal bases as well, but still couldn't take him down.
I mean... as P you do have to apply pressure and hopefully damage Zerg in the early-midgame if you want to play Zerg in the lategame. But once you get map control with storm, archon, dark archon, reaver - Bisu showed me games where that sort of latemax scenario is winnable against a top Zerg. It actually might have been Soulkey. It was before Larva won the ASL. In fact, Larva's main macro prep for that ASL was against Bisu. That was the ASL where Larva beat Mini 4-3 by defending well enough take it late and surviving 6 bespoke early-midgame aggression builds. Mini actually just proxy gated game 7 on Fighting Spirit because he knew he couldn't go late against Larva.
I mean of course it's winnable for Protoss at any state of the game including very late game. It's just they have the best chance to beat Zerg in the mid game (see pic below), so basing your strategy on that is the right approach. Let's face it: Protoss goes to late game vs Zerg because they can't kill them, not because they want to.
If you look closely on that chart, you'll see that games that go super late favor P at the highest MMR displayed.
I just think it's short-sighted to never play lategame PvZ because your build is so all-in in the midgame. Like, throwing in all-ins in the midgame will get you wins and keep a Z honest, but if you can't transition from heavy midgame pressure into later scenarios, Z knows they can just cut drones and survive and you'll kill yourself on their army. But like, being able to pull back after the pressure netted you 5 or 6 hydras more than you lost while smoothly transitioning to later scenarios against a Z is an important thing to be able to do.
Anything could happen, but if we got a Mini Soulkey finals, my money would be on 4-1 Soulkey.
super late game heavily favors protoss in pvz. bases become extremely cost efficient to defend while a zerg has to throw large amounts of units to break narrow and fortified positions. I have seen so many 35+ minute games become unwinnable for a zerg because they just run out of money. It happens in that very long zvp on nemesis in ASL. Zerg just could not break because the cost efficiency is so bad with units that die to one storm or one scarab. Another example is Motive vs MisO in CNSL on retro. Motive just killed thousands of minerals of zerg units because he had a ramp. and it cost him almost nothing beside good control.
He'll need to be able to go big macro if he wants to take down Soulkey.
Don't think going big macro is the way to solve Soulkey, especially for the Protosses as late game PvZ is not in their favor.
Mini actually has the right approach: get an advantage in the early game and kill Zerg in the mid game. And to get an advantage in the early game, you need to be good at it and have a well executed plan.
Snow goes late game vs Soulkey a lot and gets destroyed regularly. And here's Bisu going super late vs Soulkey recently, on equal bases as well, but still couldn't take him down.
I mean... as P you do have to apply pressure and hopefully damage Zerg in the early-midgame if you want to play Zerg in the lategame. But once you get map control with storm, archon, dark archon, reaver - Bisu showed me games where that sort of latemax scenario is winnable against a top Zerg. It actually might have been Soulkey. It was before Larva won the ASL. In fact, Larva's main macro prep for that ASL was against Bisu. That was the ASL where Larva beat Mini 4-3 by defending well enough take it late and surviving 6 bespoke early-midgame aggression builds. Mini actually just proxy gated game 7 on Fighting Spirit because he knew he couldn't go late against Larva.
I mean of course it's winnable for Protoss at any state of the game including very late game. It's just they have the best chance to beat Zerg in the mid game (see pic below), so basing your strategy on that is the right approach. Let's face it: Protoss goes to late game vs Zerg because they can't kill them, not because they want to.
If you look closely on that chart, you'll see that games that go super late favor P at the highest MMR displayed.
That's just not true. From minute 20 to 40, the green line has just 1 point above 50% and the yellow line has 7 points.
You probably focused on the yellow line from minute 30 to 40 where the yellow line has 6 points above 50% but keep in mind that the sample size here is extremely small, like probably 10-20 games at each minute (thus the huge error bars). So most likely you can say the game is 50/50 at this extremely rare state.
The majority of PvZ games end before the 25th minute mark with a huge uptick for Protoss in the mid game (10-17th minute):
Even if your assumption that PvZ favors Protoss in the super duper late game (beyond 33th minute), which I doubt is true anyway, it makes no sense for Protoss to not end the game when it favors them massively (10-17th minute), go through a lengthy period when it favors Zerg (19-33th minute), just to end up in a place of unclear advantage. That's why I said Mini has the right approach.
Z is on a timer as soon as it hits late game unless they have (or control) 3/4 of the map. The key moment for Protoss is probably around that 17-20 minute mark to close it out or make a transition into resource management possible that's not terribly skewed into Zerg's favor.
Z dont need 3/4 of the 4p maps. 3/4 is total domination. Just slightly above half of the map is enough, or in other words, 1-2 bases more than P.
Like in the Soulkey vs Bisu game I linked above. Both are on 4 bases at the 17th minute, then both take a fifth base at 18th minute, and Z takes a sixth base at 20th minute while P is still on 5 bases. The game ended with Z having 7 and P having 6 bases.
2p maps are probably better for P in late game PvZ though. You can split the map better and defend your remaining bases easier and Z dont have a lot of resources to eat like in a 4p map.
On August 13 2024 11:28 TornadoSteve wrote: According to Liquipedia, RO24 are starting at the end of february 2025. Please tell me this is a mistake ?!
Think we'll see many upsets in Ro24 because of the map pool. Maps are very unbalanced this season.
First two games are played on Dominator. Winners and losers games played on Minstrel, Deja Vu or Kick Back (each player bans 1), so probably mostly Deja Vu. Final game on Monty Hall, Radeon or Pantheon, so most likely Pantheon.
On August 14 2024 19:22 TMNT wrote: Think we'll see many upsets in Ro24 because of the map pool. Maps are very unbalanced this season.
First two games are played on Dominator. Winners and losers games played on Minstrel, Deja Vu or Kick Back (each player bans 1), so probably mostly Deja Vu. Final game on Monty Hall, Radeon or Pantheon, so most likely Pantheon.
Did zergs hate or love dominator? Because Dominator first is going to really determine which race will make it to Winner's Match the most.
Predictions + spoonful of wishful thinking for some wack predictions Group A: NoeL > Queen (LOL) | Rain > NoeL | Queen > Barracks | Queen > NoeL (Rain + Queen) Rain > Barracks
Group B: Mini > Scan | Mini > Bisu | Scan > Ssak | Scan > Bisu (Mini+Scan) Bisu > Ssak
Group C: Motive > Rush | RoyaL > Motive | Rush > Sacsri | Motive > Rush (Royal+Motive RoyaL > Sacsri
Group D: Speed > Best | Speed > Action | Best > Sea | Best > Action (Speed+Best) Action > Sea
On August 14 2024 19:22 TMNT wrote: Think we'll see many upsets in Ro24 because of the map pool. Maps are very unbalanced this season.
First two games are played on Dominator. Winners and losers games played on Minstrel, Deja Vu or Kick Back (each player bans 1), so probably mostly Deja Vu. Final game on Monty Hall, Radeon or Pantheon, so most likely Pantheon.
Did zergs hate or love dominator? Because Dominator first is going to really determine which race will make it to Winner's Match the most.
Not a great sample size but ZvT on Dominator is at 37%. PvZ 43% and TvP 46%. I guess it makes sense considering the position of the 3rd gas.
On August 14 2024 19:22 TMNT wrote: Think we'll see many upsets in Ro24 because of the map pool. Maps are very unbalanced this season.
First two games are played on Dominator. Winners and losers games played on Minstrel, Deja Vu or Kick Back (each player bans 1), so probably mostly Deja Vu. Final game on Monty Hall, Radeon or Pantheon, so most likely Pantheon.
Did zergs hate or love dominator? Because Dominator first is going to really determine which race will make it to Winner's Match the most.
Not a great sample size but ZvT on Dominator is at 37%. PvZ 43% and TvP 46%. I guess it makes sense considering the position of the 3rd gas.
It does feel like bad a zerg map pool for anyone but Soulkey(maybe hero too) I think ELOBOARD reflects this well. Soulkey #1. then its terrans and protoss from rank 2 to 9 with HerO on 10. Then its 11-13 terrans/protoss and the third zerg(Jaedong) at 14.
On August 14 2024 21:37 M3t4PhYzX wrote: At what hour will the groups start, btw? Anyone knows? 7PM KST?
Thanks for posting the groups. Cheers
Probably that 7 number next to the day and month means the starting hour, so very likely it is 7 pm KST. But you probably knew that when u were asking the question )
Motive has a tough but winnable group. If he could get a good 1 game win by cheese, he'll be in a great position to beat Royal and advance 1st. The problem is I can't see him advancing past Sacsri in a Bo3.
On August 15 2024 05:18 ThunderJunk wrote: Motive has a tough but winnable group. If he could get a good 1 game win by cheese, he'll be in a great position to beat Royal and advance 1st. The problem is I can't see him advancing past Sacsri in a Bo3.
Motive doesn't cheese. He's an eco control player. No wacky or crazy builds from him. I won't put him over RoyaL, but I think he has his best shot vs Sacsri. Realistically it would be Rush + Royal in Winner's, with Motive vs Sacsri in loser's with odds there at 50/50. Motive's odds vs Rush or Royal are closer yo 40/60. He could still win but its less likely. I want him to make it out in 1st place, but its less likely.
Also, I've noticed games are getting shorter and shorter lately. The meta seems to favor STRONG early and mid players, with late becoming much less common amongst all match-ups.
Group A: Queen and Rain, the two biggest players in the group both have the advantage of only needing to practice 2 matchups. They handily win group A, but with some challenging Terran cheese thrown at them. Group B: Mini and Bisu are always clear favorites in every group. Bisu is highly reliable in his path to the Ro16. Mini could lose to Terrans who know how to turtle and macro because mini can't build more than 60 probes. Scan tends to play aggressively in the early game. If he does that, he'll lose to Mini. No matter what he'll lose to Bisu. Scan beating sSaK is also possible, though I'd give him like 40% odds against sSaK on competition day. Group C: Rush and Sacsri are impressive Broodwar players. Sacsri in fact is very good at being Zerg. Royal is strong, but Sacsri feels the pull of the Zerg race yearning for a new champion. More importantly, he only needs to win one series against Royal, lose to Rush, and collect against Motive in the final match. Group D: Best and Action are heads and shoulders better than Sea and Speed. I think Speed could maybe do something against Action, but certainly not twice. And Sea spends most of his time convincing pretty Korean chicks to follow him around and enjoy him while he talks loudly about stuff. Group E: Who is teolbo? Light and Jaedong. Jaedong has been around long enough to not be thrown off guard by novelty. Light is one of the most stable defensive terrans around. They're equipped to deal with cheese. Respect teolbo for making it this far. Group F: Can Free beat JyJ? If he gets one really good win against JyJ, he could move on against Mind and we'll find out if the guy is for real. Stork is going to the loser's match. I give him 90% to beat free in PvP. So, Free needs to beat JyJ to have a shot of getting out of this group. My hypothetical money's on JyJ and Mind to clear the group with stylistic gumption.
On August 15 2024 10:54 ThunderJunk wrote: Group A: Queen and Rain, the two biggest players in the group both have the advantage of only needing to practice 2 matchups. They handily win group A, but with some challenging Terran cheese thrown at them. Group B: Mini and Bisu are always clear favorites in every group. Bisu is highly reliable in his path to the Ro16. Mini could lose to Terrans who know how to turtle and macro because mini can't build more than 60 probes. Scan tends to play aggressively in the early game. If he does that, he'll lose to Mini. No matter what he'll lose to Bisu. Scan beating sSaK is also possible, though I'd give him like 40% odds against sSaK on competition day. Group C: Rush and Sacsri are impressive Broodwar players. Sacsri in fact is very good at being Zerg. Royal is strong, but Sacsri feels the pull of the Zerg race yearning for a new champion. More importantly, he only needs to win one series against Royal, lose to Rush, and collect against Motive in the final match. Group D: Best and Action are heads and shoulders better than Sea and Speed. I think Speed could maybe do something against Action, but certainly not twice. And Sea spends most of his time convincing pretty Korean chicks to follow him around and enjoy him while he talks loudly about stuff. Group E: Who is teolbo? Light and Jaedong. Jaedong has been around long enough to not be thrown off guard by novelty. Light is one of the most stable defensive terrans around. They're equipped to deal with cheese. Respect teolbo for making it this far. Group F: Can Free beat JyJ? If he gets one really good win against JyJ, he could move on against Mind and we'll find out if the guy is for real. Stork is going to the loser's match. I give him 90% to beat free in PvP. So, Free needs to beat JyJ to have a shot of getting out of this group. My hypothetical money's on JyJ and Mind to clear the group with stylistic gumption.
Action is not better than Speed right now. Jaedong is getting thrown off guard every single season. teolbo is YSC. 90% in a PvsP is absurd. lol.
On August 14 2024 21:37 M3t4PhYzX wrote: At what hour will the groups start, btw? Anyone knows? 7PM KST?
Thanks for posting the groups. Cheers
Probably that 7 number next to the day and month means the starting hour, so very likely it is 7 pm KST. But you probably knew that when u were asking the question )
???
I didn't "know". I presumed but wanted confirmation from somebody who was sure. That's why I asked the question.. why would I ask the question if I was sure about the answer?
Man if Jaedong get eliminated in a silly bo1 in Ro24 vs Shine or Teolbo i gonna be so mad. Who the hell wanna see a bo7 in QF. I dont even think Bo7 is that Fitting for BroodWar. Apart from finals. I could be wrong tho. Im so used to the classic Bo5 from OSL .
On August 16 2024 01:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Man if Jaedong get eliminated in a silly bo1 in Ro24 vs Shine or Teolbo i gonna be so mad. Who the hell wanna see a bo7 in QF. I dont even think Bo7 is that Fitting for BroodWar. Apart from finals. I could be wrong tho. Im so used to the classic Bo5 from OSL .
On August 16 2024 01:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Man if Jaedong get eliminated in a silly bo1 in Ro24 vs Shine or Teolbo i gonna be so mad. Who the hell wanna see a bo7 in QF. I dont even think Bo7 is that Fitting for BroodWar. Apart from finals. I could be wrong tho. Im so used to the classic Bo5 from OSL .
Here I completely agree. Bo5 is pretty much ideal imo. That said, there's the upside that we'll get to see more matches on the weird maps since they can't just be vetoed out of the series >
On August 16 2024 01:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Man if Jaedong get eliminated in a silly bo1 in Ro24 vs Shine or Teolbo i gonna be so mad. Who the hell wanna see a bo7 in QF. I dont even think Bo7 is that Fitting for BroodWar. Apart from finals. I could be wrong tho. Im so used to the classic Bo5 from OSL .
On August 16 2024 01:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Man if Jaedong get eliminated in a silly bo1 in Ro24 vs Shine or Teolbo i gonna be so mad. Who the hell wanna see a bo7 in QF. I dont even think Bo7 is that Fitting for BroodWar. Apart from finals. I could be wrong tho. Im so used to the classic Bo5 from OSL .
pretty much how I feel about it, Bo5 just feels right, I liked that the map pool was only 4 maps in OSL too, there would be strategy towards map order and trying to get a good map as the repeat for set 5.
Like GTR said just do 2 Bo5 QF matches on the same day so you can get a longer broadcast and SOOP can save on production costs.
On August 16 2024 01:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Man if Jaedong get eliminated in a silly bo1 in Ro24 vs Shine or Teolbo i gonna be so mad. Who the hell wanna see a bo7 in QF. I dont even think Bo7 is that Fitting for BroodWar. Apart from finals. I could be wrong tho. Im so used to the classic Bo5 from OSL .
On August 16 2024 01:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Man if Jaedong get eliminated in a silly bo1 in Ro24 vs Shine or Teolbo i gonna be so mad. Who the hell wanna see a bo7 in QF. I dont even think Bo7 is that Fitting for BroodWar. Apart from finals. I could be wrong tho. Im so used to the classic Bo5 from OSL .
I agree. Bo5 is fine and finaly can be Bo7. It would have been better to increase the the first games of the group stages to Bo3 instead. I understand this makes for long days with potentially 15 games but it's more needed that increasing the QF to Bo7 imho.
^ surprising is one of the best things on Sports and eSports. If ro24 is BO3, it's 0% surprise to audiences (reason for the league is exist). Ro24 is BO1, it's 1% surprise to audiences. Anyway, 1% is better than 0%.
On August 16 2024 20:47 SCRVN wrote: ^ surprising is one of the best things on Sports and eSports. If ro24 is BO3, it's 0% surprise to audiences (reason for the league is exist). Ro24 is BO1, it's 1% surprise to audiences. Anyway, 1% is better than 0%.
I don't know the biggest upset recently was queen losing to that terran and it was a bo3.
You could have bo1 winners and bo3 loser as a compromise. Still some surprise potential while being still fairer, and ditch qf bo7 (semi bo7 i think maybe ok)
At least a Bo3 compared to Bo1 you're less likely to have a single BO loss in ZvZ determine everything. At the same time, the Bo1 format in Ro24 is best chance for an underdog like teolbo or scan to make it to Ro16 so I'm pretty neutral on it.
On August 16 2024 22:04 WGT-Baal wrote: I don't know the biggest upset recently was queen losing to that terran and it was a bo3.
You could have bo1 winners and bo3 loser as a compromise. Still some surprise potential while being still fairer, and ditch qf bo7 (semi bo7 i think maybe ok)
Actually, I don't see anything difference between BO1 and BO7. Do you think that FlaSh will be weaker than usual, if all round of SSL is BO1, I don't think so. He just becomes champion faster usual.
Do you know why ro24 is always BO1 but not BO2 or BO3? Organizer wants to give new faces a chance to go Ro16 from cheese or all-in. But unfortunately, tier 1, 2 players usually do that, not poor them who just want to sit on their chairs as long as they can in ro24 with standard build order.
In the real competition, BO5 and 4 maps is perfect format. That's time to strategy, map, try-hard speak loud their roles. BO7, BO9, BO11... just literally entertain for gamers, audiences and sponsors.
It's almost 30 years, all of us know what race is the best, worst and so so. How Snow, Light, Soma, ZerO, Best... play. We don't care nearly everything in this game, except this game.
Prepare some soft drink, popcorn and lean back on your chair, relax. Enjoy it with me, I love you!
On August 16 2024 22:04 WGT-Baal wrote: I don't know the biggest upset recently was queen losing to that terran and it was a bo3.
You could have bo1 winners and bo3 loser as a compromise. Still some surprise potential while being still fairer, and ditch qf bo7 (semi bo7 i think maybe ok)
Actually, I don't see anything difference between BO1 and BO7. Do you think that FlaSh will be weaker than usual, if all round of SSL is BO1, I don't think so. He just becomes champion faster usual.
This is an especially funny example as Flash got famously kicked out by Ssak and Classic in the Bo1 group stages of an MSL at the time he was at his peak skill.
The idea of giving underdogs a better chance to qualify for Ro16 by having only Bo1 in Ro24 is just stupid. You are only deserving of a place in Ro16 if you can show you're good enough, not by fluking a win or cheesing. It's pointless to have those players in Ro16 just for "diversity", only for them to be picked first in group nomination (hah) and blasted by better players once Bo3 is used.
And from the other side of the argument, where someone would say "if you are the better player you should beat the weaker one in a single game" to justify the use Bo1, well BW doesn't exactly work that way. And if that were the case then we might as well have Bo1 in finals as well.
On August 16 2024 22:04 WGT-Baal wrote: I don't know the biggest upset recently was queen losing to that terran and it was a bo3.
You could have bo1 winners and bo3 loser as a compromise. Still some surprise potential while being still fairer, and ditch qf bo7 (semi bo7 i think maybe ok)
Actually, I don't see anything difference between BO1 and BO7. Do you think that FlaSh will be weaker than usual, if all round of SSL is BO1, I don't think so. He just becomes champion faster usual.
This is an especially funny example as Flash got famously kicked out by Ssak and Classic in the Bo1 group stages of an MSL at the time he was at his peak skill.
both became made men after that group.
On August 16 2024 23:38 TMNT wrote: The idea of giving underdogs a better chance to qualify for Ro16 by having only Bo1 in Ro24 is just stupid. You are only deserving of a place in Ro16 if you can show you're good enough, not by fluking a win or cheesing. It's pointless to have those players in Ro16 just for "diversity", only for them to be picked first in group nomination (hah) and blasted by better players once Bo3 is used.
And from the other side of the argument, where someone would say "if you are the better player you should beat the weaker one in a single game" to justify the use Bo1, well BW doesn't exactly work that way. And if that were the case then we might as well have Bo1 in finals as well.
Bo1 Group Stage where you have an extra chance to get out is different from Bo1 finals. It sucks someone got cheesed, if they get cheesed twice by 2 different opponents, or even the same opponent twice if they meet in the final game then they deserved to have lost, doesn't mean the player is bad, it just wasn't their day.
but there is randomness that I don't agree with, winners/loser/final map in Ro24 used to be announced in advance, they should bring that back.
the less randomness with maps the players need to prepare for the better equipped they are to handle bullshit.
On August 16 2024 23:38 TMNT wrote: The idea of giving underdogs a better chance to qualify for Ro16 by having only Bo1 in Ro24 is just stupid. You are only deserving of a place in Ro16 if you can show you're good enough, not by fluking a win or cheesing. It's pointless to have those players in Ro16 just for "diversity", only for them to be picked first in group nomination (hah) and blasted by better players once Bo3 is used.
And from the other side of the argument, where someone would say "if you are the better player you should beat the weaker one in a single game" to justify the use Bo1, well BW doesn't exactly work that way. And if that were the case then we might as well have Bo1 in finals as well.
I understand the mentality behind this, but then the argument would be that every serious should just be like a bo5 then to make sure only the best players advance. Cheese is still part of the game and while it is higher variance with Bo1, better players should be prepping for cheeses too.
It takes a lot of effort to craft a fine cheese build, and the whole time you're practicing that cheese build, you're not practicing the standard build orders. So, having part of the tournament decided by games with fewer matches sort of pays back the creative players, who sacrifice standard practice to create unique strategies.
If the skill difference between two players isn't big enough to confidently shut someone out in a Bo1, then players who cheese and win get to demonstrate with more authority that they are closer in skill to our heroes than some of us want to admit.
On August 16 2024 23:38 TMNT wrote: The idea of giving underdogs a better chance to qualify for Ro16 by having only Bo1 in Ro24 is just stupid. You are only deserving of a place in Ro16 if you can show you're good enough, not by fluking a win or cheesing. It's pointless to have those players in Ro16 just for "diversity", only for them to be picked first in group nomination (hah) and blasted by better players once Bo3 is used.
And from the other side of the argument, where someone would say "if you are the better player you should beat the weaker one in a single game" to justify the use Bo1, well BW doesn't exactly work that way. And if that were the case then we might as well have Bo1 in finals as well.
I understand the mentality behind this, but then the argument would be that every serious should just be like a bo5 then to make sure only the best players advance. Cheese is still part of the game and while it is higher variance with Bo1, better players should be prepping for cheeses too.
Which is exactly the format of the KSL group stage that I love (but KSL starts at Ro16 I know). Plus on each day there are only two matches and you know who your opponent is to prep.
ASL used to have all-Bo1 format in Ro16 and they were able to switch to the current format. There's no reason they can't do the same for Ro24. And there's also the argument to give more game time to newcomers in Ro24 as well. Like if you make it to ASL for the first time, you would want to play more than 2 games and show what you've got, instead of crashing out in 30 minutes and go home and no one remembers who you are.
People keep talking about zerg being OP against Protoss, when the truth is that the only Zerg that is performing at the top level at all (not only against P) is Soulkey. Hero, Action, Queen and JD have been floating in the 11-20 ranks of eloboard for the most part of the last four months, with the exception of very short peaks at top 3 by Hero, JD and Action. Queen has barely managed to enter the top10, and has often dropped to rank 20-25.
Right now there are five Protoss in the top 10; four Terrans; and only one Zerg (Soulkey), as usual.
Since May 1st, Other than Soulkey, only Hero has a win rate above 50% against the top 4 Protoss, and not even by much.
So this narrative that Zerg is OP against protoss is plain BS skewed by Soulkey's recent performance.
Edit:
To keep things even, we could compare only the top 4 Zergs vs the top 4 Protoss, in which case 2 out of 4 Zergs would have a win rate above 50%.
On August 17 2024 05:13 cheesehuehue wrote: People keep talking about zerg being OP against Protoss, when the truth is that the only Zerg that is performing at the top level at all (not only against P) is Soulkey. Hero, Action, Queen and JD have been floating in the 11-20 ranks of eloboard for the most part of the last four months, with the exception of very short peaks at top 3 by Hero, JD and Action. Queen has barely managed to enter the top10, and has often dropped to rank 20-25.
Right now there are five Protoss in the top 10; four Terrans; and only one Zerg (Soulkey), as usual.
Since May 1st, Other than Soulkey, only Hero has a win rate above 50% against the top 4 Protoss, and not even by much.
So this narrative that Zerg is OP against protoss is plain BS skewed by Soulkey's recent performance.
Edit:
To keep things even, we could compare only the top 4 Zergs vs the top 4 Protoss, in which case 2 out of 4 Zergs would have a win rate above 50%.
Soulkey 71% against Mini. Mini does the worst against him out of all the top 4 Protoss.
That would mean he has the worst approach to beating Soulkey out of those top Protoss. And who has the best? Oh look, it's Bisu.
On August 17 2024 05:13 cheesehuehue wrote: People keep talking about zerg being OP against Protoss, when the truth is that the only Zerg that is performing at the top level at all (not only against P) is Soulkey. Hero, Action, Queen and JD have been floating in the 11-20 ranks of eloboard for the most part of the last four months, with the exception of very short peaks at top 3 by Hero, JD and Action. Queen has barely managed to enter the top10, and has often dropped to rank 20-25.
Right now there are five Protoss in the top 10; four Terrans; and only one Zerg (Soulkey), as usual.
Since May 1st, Other than Soulkey, only Hero has a win rate above 50% against the top 4 Protoss, and not even by much.
So this narrative that Zerg is OP against protoss is plain BS skewed by Soulkey's recent performance.
Edit:
To keep things even, we could compare only the top 4 Zergs vs the top 4 Protoss, in which case 2 out of 4 Zergs would have a win rate above 50%.
Soulkey 71% against Mini. Mini does the worst against him out of all the top 4 Protoss.
That would mean he has the worst approach to beating Soulkey out of those top Protoss. And who has the best? Oh look, it's Bisu.
I'll just smugly stop here.
I mean, it means Mini is a worse PvZ player than Bisu (always has been). In fact, in the past 1-2 years at least, he's been worse at PvZ than Bisu and Snow and probably just on par with Best. His PvZ series in ASLs is another story though.
On the other hand, Bisu, the best PvZ player of all time, and still top 3 PvZ in modern time, maintaining his form should come as no surprise.
Can't base on win rate to say anything about their approach. Take Best for example. He's probably a macro player. Doesn't get better than Bisu?
Trying to understand the schedule here (Liquipedia not updated yet), is it: - last day of groups Oct 1 - quarter 1 October 7 - quater 2 October 8 - quarter 3 October 14 - quarter 4 October 15 - semi 1 October 21 - semi 2 October 22 - finals November 2
On August 17 2024 11:31 Alzadar wrote: Trying to understand the schedule here (Liquipedia not updated yet), is it: - last day of groups Oct 1 - quarter 1 October 7 - quater 2 October 8 - quarter 3 October 14 - quarter 4 October 15 - semi 1 October 21 - semi 2 October 22 - finals November 2
Before Soma left he was the best ZvP zerg. it is quite noticable in the zerg scores that he is gone. he spend 3 years straight in the top 10, most of which in top 5, on elo rankings. Zerg lost its 2nd best player.
Also important to note for the online scores from ELOBOARD. The chinese community has been organizing their own version of ultimate battle plus sponsor matches with exclusively korean top players. These matches only get added/recorded on ELOBOARD about half the time. Soulkey's record is way better than what ELOBOARD shows. When he plays in the chinese ultimate battle he absolutely destroys everyone. He has lost like 3 out of 20(idk the exact number but he's been on quite often) chinese ultimate battles he's played. Light and snow have also been dominating, but not quite as dominant. Now I don't know why these chinese sponsored events don't get added half the time, because the rankings and the elos would be different. They organize these daily, sometimes twice or three times on a single day.
On August 17 2024 20:35 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Also important to note for the online scores from ELOBOARD. The chinese community has been organizing their own version of ultimate battle plus sponsor matches with exclusively korean top players. These matches only get added/recorded on ELOBOARD about half the time. Soulkey's record is way better than what ELOBOARD shows. When he plays in the chinese ultimate battle he absolutely destroys everyone. He has lost like 3 out of 20 chinese ultimate battles he's played. Light and snow have also been dominating, but not quite as dominant. Now I don't know why these chinese sponsored events don't get added half the time, because the rankings and the elos would be different. They organize these daily, sometimes twice or three times on a single day.
Yeah that's what I've noticed recently. Maybe not half the time but definitely some games are missing. Weird that sometimes you even have 7 games of the 9 recorded but the remaining 2 nowhere to be seen (maybe the person who recorded it went to bed early lol).
I know this has been always the case for eloboard, as each game has to be manually recorded by users like us so there were missing games before. Maybe now the number of games has become too big due to the Chinese UB, so it's even more difficult for them to keep track of. In addition there were some UBs where one of the two players didn't even stream lol.
At least the record for proleagues remains good though.
On August 17 2024 20:35 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Also important to note for the online scores from ELOBOARD. The chinese community has been organizing their own version of ultimate battle plus sponsor matches with exclusively korean top players. These matches only get added/recorded on ELOBOARD about half the time. Soulkey's record is way better than what ELOBOARD shows. When he plays in the chinese ultimate battle he absolutely destroys everyone. He has lost like 3 out of 20 chinese ultimate battles he's played. Light and snow have also been dominating, but not quite as dominant. Now I don't know why these chinese sponsored events don't get added half the time, because the rankings and the elos would be different. They organize these daily, sometimes twice or three times on a single day.
Yeah that's what I've noticed recently. Maybe not half the time but definitely some games are missing. Weird that sometimes you even have 7 games of the 9 recorded but the remaining 2 nowhere to be seen (maybe the person who recorded it went to bed early lol).
I know this has been always the case for eloboard, as each game has to be manually recorded by users like us so there were missing games before. Maybe now the number of games has become too big due to the Chinese UB, so it's even more difficult for them to keep track of. In addition there were some UBs where one of the two players didn't even stream lol.
At least the record for proleagues remains good though.
They switched some of the ultimimate battles to best of 7s, hence why sometimes its less games. they also do bo5s now. for the first few months it was exclusively 9 games. These chinese sponsored matches have convinced me Soulkey is in maybe an unbeatable final form. It will take Snow or Light at their utmost best to take him down. I give everyone else low odds.... except maybe JyJ cuz he a stone cold killer on stage.
As I just said, there was a Bo7 between Mini and JD and JD was playing offstream.
Btw, if any mod reads this, can we have StarCastTV stream in the side bar as well. They are hosting so many events these days including the Chinese spons and SCSL: https://bj.afreecatv.com/cruiser0929
On August 17 2024 11:31 Alzadar wrote: Trying to understand the schedule here (Liquipedia not updated yet), is it: - last day of groups Oct 1 - quarter 1 October 7 - quater 2 October 8 - quarter 3 October 14 - quarter 4 October 15 - semi 1 October 21 - semi 2 October 22 - finals November 2
On August 17 2024 11:31 Alzadar wrote: Trying to understand the schedule here (Liquipedia not updated yet), is it: - last day of groups Oct 1 - quarter 1 October 7 - quater 2 October 8 - quarter 3 October 14 - quarter 4 October 15 - semi 1 October 21 - semi 2 October 22 - finals November 2
Choose the player you think will win. If you are right, you get a point.Finals, Semi Finals, Quarter Finals usually are worth more points. Then the TL member with the most points in the end of the season wins.
On August 16 2024 23:38 TMNT wrote: The idea of giving underdogs a better chance to qualify for Ro16 by having only Bo1 in Ro24 is just stupid. You are only deserving of a place in Ro16 if you can show you're good enough, not by fluking a win or cheesing. It's pointless to have those players in Ro16 just for "diversity", only for them to be picked first in group nomination (hah) and blasted by better players once Bo3 is used.
And from the other side of the argument, where someone would say "if you are the better player you should beat the weaker one in a single game" to justify the use Bo1, well BW doesn't exactly work that way. And if that were the case then we might as well have Bo1 in finals as well.
I understand the mentality behind this, but then the argument would be that every serious should just be like a bo5 then to make sure only the best players advance. Cheese is still part of the game and while it is higher variance with Bo1, better players should be prepping for cheeses too.
I’d go the other way and argue the ro24 should mirror the ro16 format with bo3 added after the first two games.
Bo1 format encourages a lot of all ins which (generally, there are exceptions) are pretty crappy quality games. Series should be geared to rewarding skills rather than luck.
I understand why people want Ro24 with Bo3 in the decider matches, but it would add a ton of games. Changing Ro8 from Bo5 to Bo7 adds 4-8 games to the season, whereas changing to Ro24 to the Ro16 format adds 18-36 games. In addition to having upsets in the Ro24, SOOP probably just doesn't want to stretch out the season that much.
On August 22 2024 21:42 prion_ wrote: I understand why people want Ro24 with Bo3 in the decider matches, but it would add a ton of games. Changing Ro8 from Bo5 to Bo7 adds 4-8 games to the season, whereas changing to Ro24 to the Ro16 format adds 18-36 games. In addition to having upsets in the Ro24, SOOP probably just doesn't want to stretch out the season that much.
It wouldn't stretch the lenght of the tournament for even one day though. Upsets also lower the viewer base, since less popular players advance instead of the more popular ones. It just doesn't make any sense, is just used for arbitrary "tradition" reasons and majorly detracts from the overall quality and enjoyment of the tournament.
EPT
Bag-of-Builds is through! Hellll yes.
Piano, who had unbeatable TvZ, getting 0-2ed by 
Quickly the ACS winner blew a huge lead to 
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1127![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/Qb40CXm/racial-win-rate-vs-time-pvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png)
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