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Lets settle this ones and for all

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MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 05:47:52
March 27 2024 05:47 GMT
#1
As i just had a 'beef' with Kudos / zen_bw i gotta ask:

Poll: Easiest race to play, period.

You must be logged in to vote in this poll.

☐ T
☐ Z
☐ P



Choose one, no comments, no nothing, free interpretation of easy and what it applies to, does it apply to pros? To you? You decide. Just choose the race that comes to mind when you read poll title.

Dont read comments before you choose. Choose fast before someone changes your mind.

some blank nonsense to remove comment rows
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-.-
FinsT
Profile Joined March 2024
32 Posts
March 27 2024 05:53 GMT
#2
'toss lead with 2:0:0 so far. Dragoon spam 4ever? :D
Agh
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States936 Posts
March 27 2024 05:53 GMT
#3
What does "play" mean? Is this centered around winning?

If 'winning' is the focus, I'd say zerg.

If we're talking about being able to have a basic idea of what is going on and a new player just picking up the game, probably terran.

otherwise protoss.
I may appear to be an emotionless sarcastic pos, but just like an onion when you pull off more and more layers you find the exact same thing everytime and you start crying
FinsT
Profile Joined March 2024
32 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 06:04:53
March 27 2024 06:04 GMT
#4
On March 27 2024 14:53 Agh wrote:
What does "play" mean? Is this centered around winning?

If 'winning' is the focus, I'd say zerg.

If we're talking about being able to have a basic idea of what is going on and a new player just picking up the game, probably terran.

otherwise protoss.

He said "easiest to play" man. Easiest means most easy. Easy means the opposite of difficult.

Jokes aside, zerg can't be easiest in BW - effective larva management is way more difficult than other races' production, this alone rules zerg out. Besides, mutas and lings are heaviest micro in the game, too.

So, toss or terran? Production pretty similar difficulty-wise, but units are easier for toss: marines have the stim button but dragoons just go; battlecruisers have yamato cannon, but carriers just go (ok, need to build interceptors 1st, but that's done outta combat, so easier); siege tanks require timely siege button press in a good location and can't move while at it, but reavers just go (again, with charges pre-built outta combat).

But the nail in the coffin? Shields which regen and shield batteries which regen shields super pronto. Wanna easy times, slap an extra shield battery here and there, right? It works! Well, sometimes, at least. :D
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
March 27 2024 06:04 GMT
#5
On March 27 2024 14:53 Agh wrote:
What does "play" mean? Is this centered around winning?

If 'winning' is the focus, I'd say zerg.

If we're talking about being able to have a basic idea of what is going on and a new player just picking up the game, probably terran.

otherwise protoss.


So what did you choose? Its free interpretation whats your opinion of easy and race in the same sentence
-.-
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States910 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 06:13:04
March 27 2024 06:08 GMT
#6
On March 27 2024 14:53 Agh wrote:
What does "play" mean? Is this centered around winning?

If 'winning' is the focus, I'd say zerg.

If we're talking about being able to have a basic idea of what is going on and a new player just picking up the game, probably terran.

otherwise protoss.


When I offrace, I lose horribly with Terran and often win with Protoss

You CAN just make a death ball of dryad/bear throwing in fairy dr... I mean dragoon/zealot and throw in some templars and go win. Try just attack moving siege tanks vs. Protoss or running into lurkers vs. Zerg

Protoss is truly the Night Elf of Brood War

can't comment on Zerg because I usually win with mutas in every matchup, except to say Zerg players spend a lot more time optimizing builds while players like BeSt just randomly split. I've watched Zerg progamers and they know the optimal minerals to mine first on EVERY map, while Protoss players mine the incorrect minerals
Agh
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States936 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 07:00:59
March 27 2024 06:59 GMT
#7
On March 27 2024 15:04 MeSaber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2024 14:53 Agh wrote:
What does "play" mean? Is this centered around winning?

If 'winning' is the focus, I'd say zerg.

If we're talking about being able to have a basic idea of what is going on and a new player just picking up the game, probably terran.

otherwise protoss.


So what did you choose? Its free interpretation whats your opinion of easy and race in the same sentence



Since the OP didn't specify I assumed he meant the easiest race to amass wins with.

So if I was given a time constraint if I had to win the most amount of games in a handful of hours I'd choose Zerg.
I'd just do 3 hatch hydra vs P, muta to lurker all in vs T, and flip some coins in ZvZ.
All of those are relatively low effort and very powerful even into pro level of play.

Terran at the highest level is a lot more taxing and but aside from that I personally don't think one race has easier execution. With that in mind I didn't have a vote for how the question was presented. vs.Z seems like the "easiest" matchup to drop games against so I went with that.
I may appear to be an emotionless sarcastic pos, but just like an onion when you pull off more and more layers you find the exact same thing everytime and you start crying
bovienchien
Profile Joined March 2014
Vietnam1152 Posts
March 27 2024 07:21 GMT
#8
Race is the easiest to play, it means the weakest race to win

In PvT, Carrier and Arbiter are so strong but Protoss will die before they can buy those units

In PvZ, Protoss's not won before 15 minutes yet, they never win after then (1 zergling + 1 delifier can kill 1000000 canons, how protoss can come over it)

In PvP, Protoss has 0% winrate
https://www.facebook.com/StarcraftRemasteredVN/
HOLYBATS
Profile Joined August 2021
Turkey726 Posts
March 27 2024 08:21 GMT
#9
z easily.Just spam units and attack.
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4188 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 09:50:29
March 27 2024 09:15 GMT
#10
Wait, how was the stated question in op ever controversial?

P is by far the easiest to play (overall) but also by far the hardest to win tier 1 championship trophies with.
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 09:33:17
March 27 2024 09:31 GMT
#11
protoss is the easiest race mechanically by far, units have a long build time and are strong, no need to hotkey scanner so can literally hotkey like 7 gates midgame and later on just macro with one screen key.

toss micro is less intricate than zerg muta micro or terran overall army control, zealot micro and dragoon micro fairly easy to learn.

I'd say zerg is the hardest race because of having to produce out of 3,4 locations in the mid to late game, as well as having to learn muta micro very well before winning any games. Zerg is also purely reactionary vs terran after the muta phase ends, which makes it tough to play.

But terran is close behind, they just feel a bit more intuitive with their location screen macro, and always having the initiative (at least vs z.)

t v p , z v t , p v z are historically the hardest matchups in the game but tvp/zvt are hard mechanically while p v z is actually not hard at all mechnically, you just need a lot of knowledge and zealot micro. (look at bonyth)
Cleptocure Annecy
Profile Joined March 2024
4 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 10:19:27
March 27 2024 10:19 GMT
#12
--- Nuked ---
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2697 Posts
March 27 2024 13:02 GMT
#13
Obviously Protoss but the problem is "easy to play" is very different to "easy to win" and since many people just mix the two together we have endless debates about this.

I tried to find an anology in physical sports but could never find one, as every sport out there is just a mirror BW matchup.

Instead we could think like this: if Protoss now could only use one probe to build one building at a time like Terran, and Pylon took twice the size it takes now, it'd make them a lot harder to play, but it wouldn't make them any stronger lol.
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4987 Posts
March 27 2024 13:58 GMT
#14
I voted P and would like to main P, but goon freeze tilts me into oblivion.
I would 100% play Z if I had time to invest.
I played Terran as main because it takes the least amount of practice to execute at a satisfying level.
FBH #1!
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10151 Posts
March 27 2024 14:50 GMT
#15
As mentioned in this thread already, Protoss is the easiest race to pick up and learn (barring PvZ where forge FE and gate FE have some intricacies). At lower levels, the time investment to pick up wins with Protoss is fairly low. When friends ask why I started playing Protoss, I simply said I wanted to win more.

Obviously, higher skilled players know that Protoss begins to fall off at some point and becomes a bit more challenging to win at the highest levels.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands833 Posts
March 27 2024 15:00 GMT
#16
Protoss is very difficult once you reach top amateur competitive levels in the korean scene. we see very few zergs in the top of the foreign scene and a few terrans. In korea you see a lot of terrans and zergs and fewer protoss.


Protoss though is easier than t and z until that level.
JDON MY SOUL!
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8003 Posts
March 27 2024 15:24 GMT
#17
On March 27 2024 22:58 Peeano wrote:
I voted P and would like to main P, but goon freeze tilts me into oblivion.
I would 100% play Z if I had time to invest.
I played Terran as main because it takes the least amount of practice to execute at a satisfying level.


Yes Peeano , my goons are dumb and they freeze for no reason at all. You just need to press S a few times and they are ready to fight again !
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8003 Posts
March 27 2024 15:24 GMT
#18
BTW, i play only with toss and i pick toss in this poll
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
March 27 2024 16:32 GMT
#19
So if most choose P as easiest to play, how come its not easiest to win with?

What if we go back to say 2005 but we had 2024 strategy/micro? Would P be 100% winrate because maps being different?
-.-
FinsT
Profile Joined March 2024
32 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 18:01:15
March 27 2024 18:00 GMT
#20
On March 28 2024 01:32 MeSaber wrote:
So if most choose P as easiest to play, how come its not easiest to win with?
...

Because "play" and "win" are different words which describe different things. "To play" means doing the process of playing - regardless if you win or not.

Consider this example: what musical instrument is easier to play - 1-string guitar or 6-string guitar? Obviously, 1-string is easier to play. But does it mean 1-string guitar is "better" at what it does? Obviously, not: 6-string guitar allows to play much better than 1-string guitar.

Same thing with protoss: they are easier to play, in no small part because there are less "strings" to pull when you play 'toss - but to significant extent, that ease of play also results in 'toss showing worse results in terms of winning.
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4987 Posts
March 27 2024 19:28 GMT
#21
On March 28 2024 01:32 MeSaber wrote:
So if most choose P as easiest to play, how come its not easiest to win with?

What if we go back to say 2005 but we had 2024 strategy/micro? Would P be 100% winrate because maps being different?

Who said it is not easiest to win with? Protoss is the easiest to beat a player of higher skill with. Executing 1a2a3a and macro, thanks to auto-building and high psi units, is easy. Easier basic army control and macro than the other 2 races.

Luck is a thing, so 100% is already impossible.
FBH #1!
castleeMg
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Canada760 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 20:22:39
March 27 2024 20:21 GMT
#22
Starcraft is very hard for all races

Protoss probably has the easiest learning curve top to bottom for new players.

I’d argue playing Zerg probably gives you the best chance of beating someone that is overall more skilled than you due to the all in potential it has early game.

Terran has vultures
AKA: castle[eMg]@USEast/ iCCup
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10151 Posts
March 27 2024 20:49 GMT
#23
At the end of the day, we all suck. Realistically, if you lose, you just played worse. None of us can really balance whine.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2697 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 21:02:41
March 27 2024 21:02 GMT
#24
On March 28 2024 04:28 Peeano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2024 01:32 MeSaber wrote:
So if most choose P as easiest to play, how come its not easiest to win with?

What if we go back to say 2005 but we had 2024 strategy/micro? Would P be 100% winrate because maps being different?

Who said it is not easiest to win with? Protoss is the easiest to beat a player of higher skill with. Executing 1a2a3a and macro, thanks to auto-building and high psi units, is easy. Easier basic army control and macro than the other 2 races.

Luck is a thing, so 100% is already impossible.

You're talking about PvT, not Protoss. You don't beat Zerg and Protoss players of higher skills by 1a2a3a.

Zerg is probably the easiet to beat a player of higher skill with (9 Pool speed, regardless of matchup).


FinsT
Profile Joined March 2024
32 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-28 00:21:18
March 28 2024 00:20 GMT
#25
On March 28 2024 04:28 Peeano wrote:
Who said it is not easiest to win with? Protoss is the easiest to beat a player of higher skill with. Executing 1a2a3a and macro, thanks to auto-building and high psi units, is easy. Easier basic army control and macro than the other 2 races.

Luck is a thing, so 100% is already impossible.

Many people said that, including myself.

Please do not misunderstand us, though. When i implied 'toss are not the easiest to win with, i meant at _maximum_ fathomable performance done by both players in a game, each being top-notch master of the game. Only. When players' skills are far below humanly possible max efficiency play, then sure, up until certain amount of skill - protoss are easiest to win with; exactly because they are easiest to play.

Continuing my 1-string vs 6-string guitar analogy - this really makes it simple to understand right:

- when you and me both are shitty guitar players, the one who plays 1-string guitar can perform better, because it's easier to focus on playing some neat melody on just one string; while the other would try to do 6-string thing but fail miserably because he's not skilled enough;

- but when we both are world-best guitar players, the one who plays 1-string guitar stands no chance vs 6-string guitar: 6 strings just out-perform 1-string guitar, when played by skilled enough player.

That's how _both_ people who say 'toss are easiest to win with AND people who say 'toss suck - are BOTH right, you see. It just depends on what kind of players play it.
G5
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States2898 Posts
March 28 2024 01:31 GMT
#26
Protoss is the easiest race to play and I voted that way.

I'm taking this question literally as what is the easiest race to play mechanically. If that is indeed the question, it's undeniably Protoss.

I think Protoss is strategically harder than the other races, harder to win at the highest levels, less adaptable to maps than the other races, and overall the weakest race if everyone is playing properly. But at least we have that it's mechanically the easiest race to play. I'll take that and thank god for that fact.
FinsT
Profile Joined March 2024
32 Posts
March 28 2024 01:36 GMT
#27
On March 28 2024 10:31 G5 wrote:
Protoss is the easiest race to play and I voted that way.

I'm taking this question literally as what is the easiest race to play mechanically. If that is indeed the question, it's undeniably Protoss.

I think Protoss is strategically harder than the other races, harder to win at the highest levels, less adaptable to maps than the other races, and overall the weakest race if everyone is playing properly. But at least we have that it's mechanically the easiest race to play. I'll take that and thank god for that fact.

Exactly so, yes. Each point's true, afaict. Very well said! o7
sophisticated
Profile Joined October 2021
58 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-28 08:02:45
March 28 2024 08:00 GMT
#28
I think the arguments going "easy to play, hard to win" are faulty thinking or rather are trying to say something that is better expressed in a different or more nuanced manner.
To illustrate, if the question truly is just "easy to play" with no further qualifiers, then the conclusion should be that all the races are equally easy to play: just boot up the client, start a game and then you're playing. Success.
If the question is "easiest to play well", then you'll have to answer what that means, and imho any reasonable definition of "doing X well" will have to include looking at outcomes, i.e. whether one is successful. In many human endeavours, what success means is a complicated question, because it is a question about ends and goals (if your goal is to play a chord, it is impossibly hard to be successful with a 1-string guitar). But in competitive gaming there's one pretty clear goal: Successful playing means winning (almost by definition).
So if "easy to play" is supposed to mean "easy to play well", and "easy to play well" means "easy to win", then "it's easy to play, but hard to win" is nonsensical.
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States910 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-28 09:42:19
March 28 2024 09:42 GMT
#29
On March 28 2024 17:00 sophisticated wrote:
I think the arguments going "easy to play, hard to win" are faulty thinking or rather are trying to say something that is better expressed in a different or more nuanced manner.
To illustrate, if the question truly is just "easy to play" with no further qualifiers, then the conclusion should be that all the races are equally easy to play: just boot up the client, start a game and then you're playing. Success.
If the question is "easiest to play well", then you'll have to answer what that means, and imho any reasonable definition of "doing X well" will have to include looking at outcomes, i.e. whether one is successful. In many human endeavours, what success means is a complicated question, because it is a question about ends and goals (if your goal is to play a chord, it is impossibly hard to be successful with a 1-string guitar). But in competitive gaming there's one pretty clear goal: Successful playing means winning (almost by definition).
So if "easy to play" is supposed to mean "easy to play well", and "easy to play well" means "easy to win", then "it's easy to play, but hard to win" is nonsensical.


You can be successful with Protoss even if you just have the knowledge of what to do without the mechanics

it's impossible to be good at Zerg without knowing how to micro mutas well, it's just not something you can reach S rank with

while I personally know an S rank player who can't even micro a probe to stay alive in someone's base (his apm is a blistering 120)
[AS]Rattus
Profile Joined March 2017
427 Posts
March 28 2024 12:24 GMT
#30
i dont know, i played toss alot till ~2010 and switch to t when remastered dropped.
first i thought, t rly might be harder but after learning a simple FD-Build i started winning against toss on a pretty regular basis and the goliath build fixed my mixed results in TvZ.
But dont worry fellow terrans, i wont repeat anything blasphemic like this ever again. Terran ofcourse is the weakest and hardest race at the same time and winning is impossible if you aren't leagues above your opponent skillwise.
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
March 28 2024 12:28 GMT
#31
On March 28 2024 21:24 [AS]Rattus wrote:
i dont know, i played toss alot till ~2010 and switch to t when remastered dropped.
first i thought, t rly might be harder but after learning a simple FD-Build i started winning against toss on a pretty regular basis and the goliath build fixed my mixed results in TvZ.
But dont worry fellow terrans, i wont repeat anything blasphemic like this ever again. Terran ofcourse is the weakest and hardest race at the same time and winning is impossible if you aren't leagues above your opponent skillwise.


goliath build is kinda cheating tho, it's essentially playing terran as if it was protoss. takes skill out of it and just hits a timing, do or die
FinsT
Profile Joined March 2024
32 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-28 12:54:01
March 28 2024 12:52 GMT
#32
On March 28 2024 17:00 sophisticated wrote:...
To illustrate, if the question truly is just "easy to play" with no further qualifiers, then the conclusion should be that all the races are equally easy to play: just boot up the client, start a game and then you're playing. Success.
...

Nope, not playing yet. If i pick up a table tennis racket and stand near the table - i'm not playing table tennis yet. If i pick up a golf club and walk into a golf course, i'm not playing golf yet. Gotta perform actions ("per minute") to play any game, and these actions must have meaning within game's rules. Ain't golf if instead of hitting the ball with the club - i kick it with my foot, right? Ain't a game of starcraft if all i do is running circles in my base with a single probe, right?

Rules and restrictions any game is defined by - can be easier or harder to understand and perform _any_ well. That's the meaning of the OP question to me: he asked which race' features and quirks is least difficult to understand and perform.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
March 28 2024 13:35 GMT
#33
This poll is amusing and unsurprising.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19231 Posts
March 28 2024 13:55 GMT
#34
If you had to 1v5 comp stomp, you’d pick Terran and spam tanks right. What’s your comp stomp race? Cause then I think that answers the easiest question.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
weiliem
Profile Joined January 2008
2071 Posts
March 28 2024 14:23 GMT
#35
U click C, and click iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
Oppa feeding style
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland559 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-28 15:27:35
March 28 2024 15:27 GMT
#36
[image loading]
sophisticated
Profile Joined October 2021
58 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-28 15:35:33
March 28 2024 15:35 GMT
#37
So time passes faster for flash?
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland559 Posts
March 28 2024 15:50 GMT
#38
the graph represents 3 equally talented players who chose zerg, terran and protoss

but of course u're free to interpret it as you like!
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-28 15:57:34
March 28 2024 15:57 GMT
#39
On March 29 2024 00:50 Bonyth wrote:
the graph represents 3 equally talented players who chose zerg, terran and protoss

but of course u're free to interpret it as you like!


dont u think ur a good example of someone who wouldnt follow the path of that graph as basically 300 apm and multitask is required for the other races a lot more than clicking probes with mouse and sending them to minerals after you've accumulated 5 while microing zealots to the maximum of their potential (and being one of the best at it)
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands833 Posts
March 28 2024 15:58 GMT
#40
On March 29 2024 00:50 Bonyth wrote:
the graph represents 3 equally talented players who chose zerg, terran and protoss

but of course u're free to interpret it as you like!

Id place all three curves much closer near the end of that graph with protoss at top as SnOw.
JDON MY SOUL!
cheesehuehue
Profile Joined March 2024
Vatican City State90 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-28 17:06:16
March 28 2024 15:59 GMT
#41
All people saying Zerg is easy are nuts. Honestly, Zerg is basically useless if you don't master muta micro. There's no other race whose units need such heavy micro for it to be useful at all. Just grab a random dude who has never played SC or SC2 and tell him that he not only needs to learn the basic mechanics of the game, but also needs to master muta micro, and he will tell you "f**k off, I want to play Protoss".

Zerg needs to get expansions ASAP which leaves them wide open to attacks at many places. That fact alone means Zerg requires an insane amount of multitasking compared to other races. The level of map awareness you need to avoid losing a base is ridiculous. Really, can you expect someone who is just learning to play to be able to get a third base and defend it to a Zealot or Marine attack (not even an all-in)?



TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2697 Posts
March 28 2024 16:15 GMT
#42
On March 29 2024 00:58 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2024 00:50 Bonyth wrote:
the graph represents 3 equally talented players who chose zerg, terran and protoss

but of course u're free to interpret it as you like!

Id place all three curves much closer near the end of that graph with protoss at top as SnOw.

That's too much recency bias. As much as I like Snow, he only started to peak (online) somewhere around last year. And he hasn't had a winning record vs Soma, while Flash is still MIA.

Also you need to factor in their age. Mini, Snow, Soma, and Royal have a huge benefit of being relatively younger than the rest of the bunch, while new bloods (who were born after 1995) are virtually nonexistent, so those 4 will keep their advantage forever.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
March 28 2024 17:24 GMT
#43
On March 29 2024 00:35 sophisticated wrote:
So time passes faster for flash?


Time stands still for Flash.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
FinsT
Profile Joined March 2024
32 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-29 10:21:37
March 29 2024 09:18 GMT
#44
On March 28 2024 22:55 BisuDagger wrote:
If you had to 1v5 comp stomp, you’d pick Terran and spam tanks right. What’s your comp stomp race? Cause then I think that answers the easiest question.

Answered that with very 1st post in this topic: dragoon spam. Tanks (and guarduans) can't hit air and comps make some air. Carriers and battlecruisers are slow, late and expensive. Dragoons, you can make legions of, and they are quite beefy, too. Put shield barreries here and there to quickly buff up damaged ones, and just keep going.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19231 Posts
March 29 2024 11:43 GMT
#45
On March 29 2024 18:18 FinsT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2024 22:55 BisuDagger wrote:
If you had to 1v5 comp stomp, you’d pick Terran and spam tanks right. What’s your comp stomp race? Cause then I think that answers the easiest question.

Answered that with very 1st post in this topic: dragoon spam. Tanks (and guarduans) can't hit air and comps make some air. Carriers and battlecruisers are slow, late and expensive. Dragoons, you can make legions of, and they are quite beefy, too. Put shield barreries here and there to quickly buff up damaged ones, and just keep going.

You can also fast DT and make an invisible wall at the natural while you tech to carriers
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1554 Posts
March 29 2024 14:52 GMT
#46
Protoss is the only play I never played, so I vote Protoss.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
Smorrie
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands2922 Posts
March 29 2024 15:22 GMT
#47
At lower levels Protoss is the easiest race to play - easiest mechanics, least amount of control needed, easiest to macro.
At intermediate levels Protoss still is the easiest as it relatively requires the least amount of multi tasking, APM & control to reach similar mmr levels. At higher levels Protoss still is the easiest as a lower mechanical skill level required is required & mismanagement often is a lot more forgiving.

Terran has a lot more mechanical difficulties, even though playing T generally is very straightforward.

Zerg is easily the hardest race to play. Aside of having to master muta control to be effective at higher levels, it's the only race that doesn't have straight forward macro mechanics (constantly having to balance larvas/drones/army production), the most amount of multi tasking is required & Zerg is a lot more sensitive to mismanagement, where small mistakes can lead to directly losing a game more often than the others.

At pro level I suppose the differences are negligible.

The easiest way for any player to achieve S rank? proxy gates.
It has a strong technique, but it lacks oo.
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands833 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-29 16:25:13
March 29 2024 16:10 GMT
#48
On March 29 2024 01:15 TMNT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2024 00:58 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
On March 29 2024 00:50 Bonyth wrote:
the graph represents 3 equally talented players who chose zerg, terran and protoss

but of course u're free to interpret it as you like!

Id place all three curves much closer near the end of that graph with protoss at top as SnOw.

That's too much recency bias. As much as I like Snow, he only started to peak (online) somewhere around last year. And he hasn't had a winning record vs Soma, while Flash is still MIA.

Also you need to factor in their age. Mini, Snow, Soma, and Royal have a huge benefit of being relatively younger than the rest of the bunch, while new bloods (who were born after 1995) are virtually nonexistent, so those 4 will keep their advantage forever.

Snow has been the best online toss for the past three years almost. He has peaked higher than any other protoss. He is the benchmark. Soma was the benchmark for online zerg. Better than Soulkey.

When flash played for 2 months last year he did a couple "anonymous" spon matches and he got destroyed by snow in addition to going 0-5 in "planned" ladder games. Flash Rusty is a valid argument however.
JDON MY SOUL!
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2268 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-30 03:02:02
March 30 2024 02:42 GMT
#49
i've seen many C rank players get to S rank with zerg in less than a year.

never seen that with T or P...

i blame zvz, and zvp free wins.

also this:

On March 28 2024 05:21 castleeMg wrote:
I’d argue playing Zerg probably gives you the best chance of beating someone that is overall more skilled than you due to the all in potential it has early game.




and this

On March 28 2024 10:31 G5 wrote:
I think Protoss is strategically harder than the other races, harder to win at the highest levels, less adaptable to maps than the other races, and overall the weakest race if everyone is playing properly. But at least we have that it's mechanically the easiest race to play. I'll take that and thank god for that fact.



The muta micro argument is really bs imo, cause having decent muta micro is like knowing how to stop 2 gate zealot rush with dragoon micro, is basic to get out of the lower levels, ofc u can take that shit to prime JD level and just crush with micro, but arguing that one race is the most difficult cause relies on this particular skillset to survive a match up is basically describing StarCraft...

u can't play high level protoss with scrub level reaver control and no protoss cries about having to learn reaver control or dragoon control... in fact u can play protoss with no reaver at all but is suboptimal, and if u're lossing to something unoptimal, u're trash.

StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
NoS-Craig
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia3095 Posts
March 30 2024 03:04 GMT
#50
I picked Protoss just over Terran.
Artosis loves Starcraft
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7801 Posts
March 30 2024 04:13 GMT
#51
I picked P because it rolls T so hard at the lowest levels. I sympathize with PvZ woes at the highest levels...
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
March 30 2024 08:37 GMT
#52
Aye gotta go with Toss. Overall they have the same issue they have in SC2 where they are easier to pick up and rise through the ranks with, but hit a wall where they eventually probably become the hardest race at the real elite, elite level.

Especially if we were to take a complete RTS virgin and have them start BW from scratch (poor bastard). They’ve quite beefy stock units which makes them a little more forgiving overall, less of them to actually control at times etc. Plus it’s simpler to just build probes, build gates and build stuff than juggling the Zerg’s drones or army macro cycles.

Definitely also the most manly and cool race alongside their relative easiness.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium4759 Posts
March 30 2024 10:06 GMT
#53
A hypothesis that might be tested is that because of their durability and strength, the explored space in finding solutions for the different matchups might be smaller, whether that is from actual builds, compositions, unit usage, micro. I'm not saying pro's haven't optimized micro, maybe they missed something else and are they stuck in a local optimum, instead of having found the actual optimum.

For example, hallucinating part of your army to lure enemy troops away to then attack the lesser reinforced army. Also, hallucinated units DO fight, but their more like a meat shield, so you could in a sense use them for damage buffers. Stuff like that. I don't think anyone has actually done the maths on that?
Taxes are for Terrans
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands833 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-30 11:00:03
March 30 2024 10:59 GMT
#54
On March 30 2024 19:06 Uldridge wrote:
A hypothesis that might be tested is that because of their durability and strength, the explored space in finding solutions for the different matchups might be smaller, whether that is from actual builds, compositions, unit usage, micro. I'm not saying pro's haven't optimized micro, maybe they missed something else and are they stuck in a local optimum, instead of having found the actual optimum.

For example, hallucinating part of your army to lure enemy troops away to then attack the lesser reinforced army. Also, hallucinated units DO fight, but their more like a meat shield, so you could in a sense use them for damage buffers. Stuff like that. I don't think anyone has actually done the maths on that?


Halluci is kind of a waste in mass into mass attacks because storm exists. 4ht in a shuttle with 150 energy will achieve way better results than 4 sets of hallucination ever will.
JDON MY SOUL!
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19231 Posts
March 30 2024 13:25 GMT
#55
On March 30 2024 19:59 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2024 19:06 Uldridge wrote:
A hypothesis that might be tested is that because of their durability and strength, the explored space in finding solutions for the different matchups might be smaller, whether that is from actual builds, compositions, unit usage, micro. I'm not saying pro's haven't optimized micro, maybe they missed something else and are they stuck in a local optimum, instead of having found the actual optimum.

For example, hallucinating part of your army to lure enemy troops away to then attack the lesser reinforced army. Also, hallucinated units DO fight, but their more like a meat shield, so you could in a sense use them for damage buffers. Stuff like that. I don't think anyone has actually done the maths on that?


Halluci is kind of a waste in mass into mass attacks because storm exists. 4ht in a shuttle with 150 energy will achieve way better results than 4 sets of hallucination ever will.

I'd love to see Hallucinate drops in a Terran base to clear mines before a big arbiter recall.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2697 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-30 14:05:19
March 30 2024 14:03 GMT
#56
On March 30 2024 11:42 XenOsky wrote:

The muta micro argument is really bs imo, cause having decent muta micro is like knowing how to stop 2 gate zealot rush with dragoon micro, is basic to get out of the lower levels, ofc u can take that shit to prime JD level and just crush with micro, but arguing that one race is the most difficult cause relies on this particular skillset to survive a match up is basically describing StarCraft...

u can't play high level protoss with scrub level reaver control and no protoss cries about having to learn reaver control or dragoon control... in fact u can play protoss with no reaver at all but is suboptimal, and if u're lossing to something unoptimal, u're trash.


This is spot on. Some people (like the guy at the top of this page) like to pretend that Zerg is useless if you don't know Muta micro. The truth is below B rank most Zerg players don't even do Muta's openings against Terran, let alone Protoss lol. There are different ways to play Zerg. Hawk got to mid C rank (iirc) with Zerg, playing on one hand without building a single Muta ffs. Not ideally, but you can say the same for any races. Saying Zerg is hardest because of Muta micro is like saying Protoss is hardest because of Reaver micro. Even if you look at the foreign scene, aside from Bonyth and Dewalt who else can use Reaver vs Terran properly?

In that sense, the "easiest to play" debate gets even more confusing, because it also depends on how you want to play. For example if you look at the SC university games in Korea, in ZvP some coaches (our progamers nonetheless) tend to guide those female BJ towards that build in which you just sit behind mass sunkens and lurkers until 12 ultralisks are out on the map. Meanwhile the Protoss players who just follow the mantra of "just macro, making goons and zealots and HTs" have an easy time in the mid game but fail horribly in the late game when the ultras are out. Now can you say Protoss is harder because you have to incorporate Reaver micro into your mid game timing to end a Zerg who plays like that?

namkraft
Profile Blog Joined December 2021
448 Posts
March 30 2024 15:19 GMT
#57
Would be nice if we have a poll as to which race you play. I doubt it's not 33% for each.
Broodwar Forever
FinsT
Profile Joined March 2024
32 Posts
March 30 2024 15:58 GMT
#58
On March 30 2024 23:03 TMNT wrote:
...
In that sense, the "easiest to play" debate gets even more confusing, because it also depends on how you want to play. ...

Not really confusing, no. It depends on how you want to play _only_ if the debate is about this or that playstyle to begin with - i.e., if this poll would specifically mention "flying units micro easiest for which race?" or say "which race is easiest to get rank C with", etc. When such specifics are defined, then variations are possible and it does, indeed, depend on how exactly you wanna play it.

But in this poll, it does not depend on how you want to play. The OP specifically stated he's asking which race is easiest to play without any specifics considered. This means, we must assume the easiest playstyle possible with each race, then compare which of the three races is most easy to play while doing that easiest-for-this-race playstyle.

And that's why my 1st post in this topic was about dragoon spam: can't quite imagine anything easier which would still count as anyhow reasonable playstyle. Marines may look like it, but they're so darn squishy without medics, and medics is already two different units to make and control - resulting, imo, in slightly more difficulty to achieve same result as dragoon spam would do. Zerglings, of course, die to air units, so won't do for "easiest" game, too. Hydras - maybe, but only in certain quite-able hands; otherwise, they are denied by tanks, reavers and storms so damn hard.

P.S. + Show Spoiler +
Later, one of posters said that it depends on how we measure success, too; "you started the game playing this or that race - gratz, success achieved" idea. Meaning, it's possible to be playing the game "somehow" by simply doing literally anything. Like having your own drones duke it out vs each other at your base. But i'm sure this doesn't count: "easiest to play" phrase implies that the player is actually trying to win, doing something which provides some reasonable chance of winning. Technically it's true that we can play a game without trying to win it, it's just that "easiest" word loses all meaning then, yeah... So why ask and answer if it's meaningless, right? :D
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States859 Posts
March 30 2024 16:45 GMT
#59
IMO, zerg is the easiest if you choose the micro ape way (i.e you win by doing all in strategy that heavily focuses on set ways of microing your units) If you choose the macro life zerg is the harder race than terran by small margin.
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