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There's a valid point when it comes to seeing race balance as a thing that should be judged based around the pro-scene when it comes to units, abilities etc. of the different races. However, have any of you thought about the possbility of balancing races in low levels not based on that but rather maps themselves?
The idea is that perhaps for anybody willing to try this, such as on Shield Battery, if at some point it would become the go-to place for Brood War players in general, if we assume that maybe Microsoft in the future will simply incorporate/replace Battle.net/Blizzard ladder with that system, that we could have different maps, with a different skill floor for low rank players?
Examples could be either some of the smaller default/Blizzard ladder maps, or perhaps regular ladder maps but modified resource ratios. For example, as Zerg probably is weakest race on lower levels, maybe by default on these maps each main base would have 8 mineral patches + 1 geyser and the naturals would have 4 or 5 mineral patches + 1 geyser for example.
I feel like this wouldn't be a bad thing for low rank gameplay, as there wouldn't be as much of an emphasis on immediately figuring out the entire range of possible timings and such. Also before the "git gud, read build order guides", I would argue that there is no fun in that, why do you want somebody else to play the game for you? Wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing in a Real Time Strategy game? What do you think?
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On June 26 2023 13:37 JonttuTonttu wrote:
I feel like this wouldn't be a bad thing for low rank gameplay, as there wouldn't be as much of an emphasis on immediately figuring out the entire range of possible timings and such. Also before the "git gud, read build order guides", I would argue that there is no fun in that, why do you want somebody else to play the game for you? Wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing in a Real Time Strategy game? What do you think?
Figuring out "possible timings and such" would be just as rewarding on these easier maps; the timings would just be different.
If the map would have less money on it overall, then the APM requirements to not float on money would indeed be lower, but the reward for skill and execution would still be skyhigh. It'd still be StarCraft. A good Zerg player would still just kill Terrans with mutalisks, etc.
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I think that catering to noobs is both pointless and a disservice to Brood War as a whole.
First of all, new people have played and enjoyed playing on even the shittiest of maps for years. Second of all, many current pro maps are very straightforward to understand and play, I don't see how it can be made any simpler for people to understand. Third of all, no amount of accommodation will fix the fact that noobs are trash at the game, that is an internal problem not an external one, people are responsible for their own growth and ability in the game. Fourth of all, creating an artificial divide between lower and higher levels will simply ensure that there are even more barriers for people to overcome if they do decide to get better at the game, because suddenly they will have to get used to new maps, timings, meta, etc. Finally, as vOdToasT said above, people will still create BOs and strategies for these new maps, thus the situation will not be changed for the better, and will only be worse.
As for "wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing", well, if your approach is willful ignorance of the strategies developed by your forefathers, then you're a pretty shit strategist. Why try to reinvent the wheel if it already exists? Just admit that you're too lazy to learn and master the proven and established strategies and want to dick around in the game, there is no shame in that, it's just a videogame and if you're having fun then that is what matters. No one is going to buff Guardians for you or change the fundamental aspects of this game 25 years in, it is on you to make of it what you will, whether that is playing as a 50 apm noob on money maps or trying to become a 300 APM gosu, that is up to you and you shouldn't be asking for or expecting things to be tailored to your low commitment approach.
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everything sounds way too complicated, I don't think anyone can/want to implement it as soon as you get better, the game changes and how is it supposed to work when a good player plays against a bad one. The thought process is also incomprehensible, the game has been around for decades and the last patch was decades ago, when I look at the foreigner scene, the game is balanced. For me, this would not be an attractive incentive, but rather the opposite. My opinion.
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United States12235 Posts
On June 26 2023 13:37 JonttuTonttu wrote:
There's a valid point when it comes to seeing race balance as a thing that should be judged based around the pro-scene when it comes to units, abilities etc. of the different races. However, have any of you thought about the possbility of balancing races in low levels not based on that but rather maps themselves?
The idea is that perhaps for anybody willing to try this, such as on Shield Battery, if at some point it would become the go-to place for Brood War players in general, if we assume that maybe Microsoft in the future will simply incorporate/replace Battle.net/Blizzard ladder with that system, that we could have different maps, with a different skill floor for low rank players?
Examples could be either some of the smaller default/Blizzard ladder maps, or perhaps regular ladder maps but modified resource ratios. For example, as Zerg probably is weakest race on lower levels, maybe by default on these maps each main base would have 8 mineral patches + 1 geyser and the naturals would have 4 or 5 mineral patches + 1 geyser for example.
I feel like this wouldn't be a bad thing for low rank gameplay, as there wouldn't be as much of an emphasis on immediately figuring out the entire range of possible timings and such. Also before the "git gud, read build order guides", I would argue that there is no fun in that, why do you want somebody else to play the game for you? Wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing in a Real Time Strategy game? What do you think?
Part of the beauty of any competitive game is the fact that everyone starts with the same resources at their disposal. Flash starts with the same 4 SCVs that you do, Daigo plays the same Ken that you do, Topson plays the same Io that you do. The implication, therefore, is that you have the ability--however distant--to perform the same magical feats as these great players, if you were capable of making the same decisions and executing the same actions.
That said, one thing I think we can potentially apply in ShieldBattery, given enough data points, is a modifier to MMR change based on race matchup and spawn location to offset inherent map imbalances. This could even apply to bands of MMR, although it would take even more data collection. For example, if you are playing on Fighting Spirit TvZ 2 o'clock vs 8 o'clock against a Zerg who is favored against you 55%/45%, but that specific FS-TvZ-2v8 matchup is 55/45 Terran-favored, then instead of an unfavorable match where you stand to lose less or gain more, your MMR gains/losses would be even. Something like that would be pretty far down the line, but still it's something I want to keep in mind.
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If you are serious about such things, the biggest service you can do for the scene is run some tournaments, MMR capped, on the maps you are considering.
There s no such things as too many tournaments, especially for lower level players. Just try not to collide with other well established ones (like cpl)
Or if not a tournament, some sort of recurring event with a discord server. Like idk tuesday night noob fun (example).
Be the change you want to see!
Edit: tournament organising can seem daunting but it doesn't have to be, and you can always ask for help too
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On June 27 2023 19:26 WGT-Baal wrote:
If you are serious about such things, the biggest service you can do for the scene is run some tournaments, MMR capped, on the maps you are considering.
There s no such things as too many tournaments, especially for lower level players. Just try not to collide with other well established ones (like cpl)
Or if not a tournament, some sort of recurring event with a discord server. Like idk tuesday night noob fun (example).
Be the change you want to see!
Edit: tournament organising can seem daunting but it doesn't have to be, and you can always ask for help too
I was in such a tournament and Jealous from this thread dodged me in the finals
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On June 27 2023 23:58 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2023 19:26 WGT-Baal wrote:
If you are serious about such things, the biggest service you can do for the scene is run some tournaments, MMR capped, on the maps you are considering.
There s no such things as too many tournaments, especially for lower level players. Just try not to collide with other well established ones (like cpl)
Or if not a tournament, some sort of recurring event with a discord server. Like idk tuesday night noob fun (example).
Be the change you want to see!
Edit: tournament organising can seem daunting but it doesn't have to be, and you can always ask for help too I was in such a tournament and Jealous from this thread dodged me in the finals
Wait, what? I don't recall any such thing. Got a link?
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On June 27 2023 01:37 Jealous wrote:
I think that catering to noobs is both pointless and a disservice to Brood War as a whole.
First of all, new people have played and enjoyed playing on even the shittiest of maps for years. Second of all, many current pro maps are very straightforward to understand and play, I don't see how it can be made any simpler for people to understand. Third of all, no amount of accommodation will fix the fact that noobs are trash at the game, that is an internal problem not an external one, people are responsible for their own growth and ability in the game. Fourth of all, creating an artificial divide between lower and higher levels will simply ensure that there are even more barriers for people to overcome if they do decide to get better at the game, because suddenly they will have to get used to new maps, timings, meta, etc. Finally, as vOdToasT said above, people will still create BOs and strategies for these new maps, thus the situation will not be changed for the better, and will only be worse.
As for "wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing", well, if your approach is willful ignorance of the strategies developed by your forefathers, then you're a pretty shit strategist. Why try to reinvent the wheel if it already exists? Just admit that you're too lazy to learn and master the proven and established strategies and want to dick around in the game, there is no shame in that, it's just a videogame and if you're having fun then that is what matters. No one is going to buff Guardians for you or change the fundamental aspects of this game 25 years in, it is on you to make of it what you will, whether that is playing as a 50 apm noob on money maps or trying to become a 300 APM gosu, that is up to you and you shouldn't be asking for or expecting things to be tailored to your low commitment approach.
I don't understand the obsession you have with trying to read between the lines or figure out what I want based on what I haven't said here. That's attacking me not my argument, I don't think it's too much to ask that you take what I write on face value, is it? Though this is probably the third time from you so far, and that's over the span of years. Why not take a chill pill?
Then as you point out that noobs shouldn't be catered to at all, well, as long as there actually will be noobs around in the future. The issue is, that the sustainability and state of the game as a whole is at stake. I'm not saying my suggestion is the solution but I'm throwing out ideas, whether you like them or dislike them, dismiss them or not. No matter the solution, there has to be new blood into the game in the long term, if you want the game to suvive, I'm sure most of you can understand the fact that, there's less and less retention of players and less and less new ones coming around, and if this keeps up, soon people here will be playing on weekends only with their internet friends on pre-arranged occasions on Game Ranger or something.
I can play an armchair psychiatrist or whatever too, maybe you want to make sure that no new players come around, so that in the future there won't be noobs that make you feel like your commitment or practice over decades was all in vain if a newbie can come in and more easily reach your level than you did. Indeed if they did, there would be nothing wrong with that at all, after all they would have to be at the same skill level as you, it's just that they didn't have to waste as much of their time to get to your level, it's not the grind that matters, it's the goal and the results that matter, as it is in life.
Other than that, optimizations that people have figured out over time, as various metagame shifts and trends have come and gone, falls into the category of pure memorization. Memorization by itself is not strategization. It isn't your accomplishment if somebody else came up with a build order, that you simply copy, just like pure hard work in copying somebody else's build and following the timings in it isn't strategizing either.
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Regarding arguments over all in the thread from everyone so far...
When it comes to timings in these noob maps, yes of course there would be timings, but I think there would a narrower collection of viable timings, and hence a better on-boarding experience or higher (or is it lower?) skill floor at the lower ranks. When it comes to somebody having to learn more timings and whatnot when they are in a higher rank playing normal maps, I think that would just mean more possible timings and builds to look out for. Of course maybe I'm wrong, and I'm willing to listen if someone can explain why it wouldn't be so.
It's also possible that a lot of the issues that noobs have on Battle.net are more due to bad matchmaking, smurfs etc. that are more typical for B.net specificially, if you generally think this is the case feel free to let me know what you personally think makes ladder for example a less desirable noob experience than it could be, and what you personally think would be best for the noobs in that environment. 
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It sounds like you’re describing the map blood bath to an extent or modified versions such as 6 player or blood bath with expansions, which is a good map(s) for all levels
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On June 28 2023 05:14 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2023 23:58 iopq wrote:On June 27 2023 19:26 WGT-Baal wrote:
If you are serious about such things, the biggest service you can do for the scene is run some tournaments, MMR capped, on the maps you are considering.
There s no such things as too many tournaments, especially for lower level players. Just try not to collide with other well established ones (like cpl)
Or if not a tournament, some sort of recurring event with a discord server. Like idk tuesday night noob fun (example).
Be the change you want to see!
Edit: tournament organising can seem daunting but it doesn't have to be, and you can always ask for help too I was in such a tournament and Jealous from this thread dodged me in the finals Wait, what? I don't recall any such thing. Got a link?
I'm just kidding, it was literally some thing on Discord in 2017
https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/529013-rookie-teamleague-2?page=15#285
and I will never let you live it down
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On June 29 2023 05:59 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2023 05:14 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2023 23:58 iopq wrote:On June 27 2023 19:26 WGT-Baal wrote:
If you are serious about such things, the biggest service you can do for the scene is run some tournaments, MMR capped, on the maps you are considering.
There s no such things as too many tournaments, especially for lower level players. Just try not to collide with other well established ones (like cpl)
Or if not a tournament, some sort of recurring event with a discord server. Like idk tuesday night noob fun (example).
Be the change you want to see!
Edit: tournament organising can seem daunting but it doesn't have to be, and you can always ask for help too I was in such a tournament and Jealous from this thread dodged me in the finals Wait, what? I don't recall any such thing. Got a link? I'm just kidding, it was literally some thing on Discord in 2017 https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/529013-rookie-teamleague-2?page=15#285and I will never let you live it down
I think you must be mistaking me for someone else; I don't recall being in any Discord-based tournaments, certainly not making it to the finals of one. I do recall that we met on ladder and went like 3:3 on ICCup, and that I 2-0'd you in L_Master's Invitational, that's about it. I'd never have any real reason to dodge you back when I was active.
EDIT: Though, to be fair, I have no recollection of playing RTL either, so who knows. If it was me and I dodged for whatever reason, I'm sorry.
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United States10151 Posts
Throw every noob onto bloodbath only and let them fight it out.
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On June 30 2023 00:50 FlaShFTW wrote:
Throw every noob onto bloodbath only and let them fight it out.
Or those god awful blizzard old ladder maps, bet you cant uae a normal build on those
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On June 26 2023 13:37 JonttuTonttu wrote:
I feel like this wouldn't be a bad thing for low rank gameplay, as there wouldn't be as much of an emphasis on immediately figuring out the entire range of possible timings and such. Also before the "git gud, read build order guides", I would argue that there is no fun in that, why do you want somebody else to play the game for you? Wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing in a Real Time Strategy game? What do you think?
You can probably hit A-S rank without knowing build orders if you don't play Terran. Literally learn to build an army in less than 12 minutes as Protoss, or learn to micro muta as Zerg and you're at least A rank.
Also, if player A is better tactically and strategically than player B, no build order will save player B from losing. The myth that you can't progress because you don't want to learn build orders and reactions is just that... A myth to defend bad play.
Ladder should cater to the pro scene because unless you're playing at a level that is competitive in CMSL/BSL top 16, you probably aren't overly affected by map balance.
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Learn the build order then do your own build or strat, it took decades to understand the game
What build are you going to do if a 4 pooler, a toss rusher or a "bunker" terran with arrives before you can execute any of your ideas?
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On June 30 2023 11:27 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2023 13:37 JonttuTonttu wrote:
I feel like this wouldn't be a bad thing for low rank gameplay, as there wouldn't be as much of an emphasis on immediately figuring out the entire range of possible timings and such. Also before the "git gud, read build order guides", I would argue that there is no fun in that, why do you want somebody else to play the game for you? Wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing in a Real Time Strategy game? What do you think? You can probably hit A-S rank without knowing build orders if you don't play Terran.
Yeah, okay, and then corsairs and zealots hit you at 8 minutes and kill your overlords because you're full of it
What A rank Zerg doesn't follow build orders? Even Catz from sc2 doing whatever only sustained like B rank in BW. Technically, he does follow build orders, but they are like "proxy hatchery inside protoss base" so not the standard ones
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On July 08 2023 04:56 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2023 11:27 Eywa- wrote:On June 26 2023 13:37 JonttuTonttu wrote:
I feel like this wouldn't be a bad thing for low rank gameplay, as there wouldn't be as much of an emphasis on immediately figuring out the entire range of possible timings and such. Also before the "git gud, read build order guides", I would argue that there is no fun in that, why do you want somebody else to play the game for you? Wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing in a Real Time Strategy game? What do you think? You can probably hit A-S rank without knowing build orders if you don't play Terran. Yeah, okay, and then corsairs and zealots hit you at 8 minutes and kill your overlords because you're full of it What A rank Zerg doesn't follow build orders? Even Catz from sc2 doing whatever only sustained like B rank in BW. Technically, he does follow build orders, but they are like "proxy hatchery inside protoss base" so not the standard ones
Idk, I'm a B rank Protoss player, my macro is bad and my micro is bad and I don't know any timings or optimal unit comps. My max out is about 2-3 minutes behind what it could be.
Just speaking from my own experience here, but I think you overestimate the skill level required to hit certain thresholds. Anyone my skill level or below just doesn't know how to play the game quite frankly, so yeah I don't think build orders matter other than a rudimentary understanding that "Corsairs and Zealots exist and could fuck me up if I don't macro an army/solution to counter at some point in the early game".
Also, if you're willing to play mirrors, your MMR gets inflated at low ranks due to leavers.
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On July 08 2023 07:38 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2023 04:56 iopq wrote:On June 30 2023 11:27 Eywa- wrote:On June 26 2023 13:37 JonttuTonttu wrote:
I feel like this wouldn't be a bad thing for low rank gameplay, as there wouldn't be as much of an emphasis on immediately figuring out the entire range of possible timings and such. Also before the "git gud, read build order guides", I would argue that there is no fun in that, why do you want somebody else to play the game for you? Wouldn't you want to be the one strategizing in a Real Time Strategy game? What do you think? You can probably hit A-S rank without knowing build orders if you don't play Terran. Yeah, okay, and then corsairs and zealots hit you at 8 minutes and kill your overlords because you're full of it What A rank Zerg doesn't follow build orders? Even Catz from sc2 doing whatever only sustained like B rank in BW. Technically, he does follow build orders, but they are like "proxy hatchery inside protoss base" so not the standard ones Idk, I'm a B rank Protoss player, my macro is bad and my micro is bad and I don't know any timings or optimal unit comps. My max out is about 2-3 minutes behind what it could be. Just speaking from my own experience here, but I think you overestimate the skill level required to hit certain thresholds. Anyone my skill level or below just doesn't know how to play the game quite frankly, so yeah I don't think build orders matter other than a rudimentary understanding that "Corsairs and Zealots exist and could fuck me up if I don't macro an army/solution to counter at some point in the early game". Also, if you're willing to play mirrors, your MMR gets inflated at low ranks due to leavers.
To be fair, maybe build orders don't matter for you because you have 20 years of game experience and thus can intuit/feel/mix in some shit you saw progamers do kinda into the game differently from someone who is actually new and relies on build orders and stability to get to the same level.
To be real, lower ranks are already the wild west, or at least they were 2-3 years ago when I was active. You never know what the fuck the opponent is going to do. There aren't any stable build orders, every person is doing whatever the hell they feel like, which in turn makes it difficult to practice build orders beyond your opener and forces you to learn to adapt and scout and etc. So, I think that the whole build order thing is a non-issue in general.
This is based on my investigations from back then. I never got to the publication stage, but basically I would float my CC and kill all but one SCV and then use that SCV to aggressively scout. My theory was that there would be an MMR at which I would stabilize - people would either think I am hacking, or give up looking for me, or straight up ragequit to my SCV. Back then, it happened around 1200 or so IIRC. I found stability. One of the people who won, won after 50 minutes of looking for my building, making 1 of each unit. 1 Zealot, 1 Dragoon, etc. until their Scout found me. Of the many people who lost, most would ragequit when my SCV would kill a Probe because all of my attention is on microing it. That level was 1200. Just thought I should throw that in there.
TLDR: 2-3 years ago, there were a ton of noobs playing the game, we just don't know about them or hear about them because they don't interact with pro content or with 20+ year old gaming forums. But they are down there, living in a chaotic world; I have to assume that is still the case, even if the numbers are lower. They are having fun with no build orders and no guidelines.
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u cant balance bw at low levels because the shit that happens between those players makes no sense... what would you balance? the fact that the zerg player had all his larva iddle for 2 minutes?
if you want to make bw easier for newbies, probably making conceptually simpler maps could help... something like 8 base, 4 player map (just main + natural)
+ Show Spoiler +btw a very good advice for newbies looking to improve quick is practicing your mechanics in fastest or bgh games only, fuck ladder, that shit is too laggy, bm, cheesee, stressfull, difficult, too many maps, too many match ups... just play fastest, try to produce with your keyboard and 1a2a3a4a the best you can, then u can jump onto 1vs1 low maps melee games or ranked if u like that ^^
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EPT
