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On March 30 2023 21:10 chenchuan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 19:39 GeckoXp wrote:
The only explanation I can come up with is that the language barrier makes it hard to communicate with you, as you seem to not understand the arguments that were made. Apparently ZZZero tries to support the foreign community and make a living off of his endeavours. If his only goal was to make a living off brood war, he could have focussed on Korea or put more energy into that kind of field.
Now, it doesn't seem like you care one bit about our views on what's needed and you also lack the history of what had been tried in the past. Hint: none of your suggestions work, all events that "included" Koreans didn't bring the boost you were dreaming of. The best summary of all responses can be found in marwin's meme. So, please, don't tell us what to think and assume we're stupid. Let's make a hypothesis that you're right.Mr. ZZZero is so selfless.He doesn't want to rely on SC1 for a living.He also does not want to contact the SC1 community in South Korea. How do you achieve the requirements you mentioned?Rely on your Jesus?
I respect ZZZero for what he's done and what he wants to do, but it's his dream to live off of Brood War and not mine. Personally, I'm not interested in any "business" that has to do with eSport, to me Brood War is a hobby and not more. And that's what you do not understand at all. Most people repyling here do not only want to watch, but also play in events. For those people BSL is the best tournament out there and you ask them to hand that over to Koreans. Well, why should they have any motivation in doing so? They won't earn more money and they won't gain any positives.
We're more interested in having a stable or even growing player base. If money was the answer we should've seen it making an impact by now or that events in the past would've made a difference. They didn't. Sure, bigger prize pools are appreciated, but they're not the solution to anything. We need newbies and casuals, not tons of gosus. If Koreans or Chinese had any interest for mutual projects, we would gladly welcome them. Experience tells me those communities remain isolated, because they're doing well enough on their own. So be it. This also means that I don't care for their suggestions one bit, if there's no quo for my quid.
Now please reply to the arguments people made here, get a translator if neccessary.
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On March 30 2023 21:10 chenchuan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 19:39 GeckoXp wrote:
The only explanation I can come up with is that the language barrier makes it hard to communicate with you, as you seem to not understand the arguments that were made. Apparently ZZZero tries to support the foreign community and make a living off of his endeavours. If his only goal was to make a living off brood war, he could have focussed on Korea or put more energy into that kind of field.
Now, it doesn't seem like you care one bit about our views on what's needed and you also lack the history of what had been tried in the past. Hint: none of your suggestions work, all events that "included" Koreans didn't bring the boost you were dreaming of. The best summary of all responses can be found in marwin's meme. So, please, don't tell us what to think and assume we're stupid. Let's make a hypothesis that you're right.Mr. ZZZero is so selfless.He doesn't want to rely on SC1 for a living.He also does not want to contact the SC1 community in South Korea. How do you achieve the requirements you mentioned?Rely on your Jesus?
If Mr ZZZero didn't want to make a living from SC1 he wouldn't be making double or even triple the total prize pools for players. With how small the foreign BW scene is, where most money is mostly donated by viewers/players, this just seems insane and nobody seems to care.
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Russian Federation378 Posts
ancient Chinese saying:"Walk a thousand miles,it starts with taking the first step."
I'll answer in ancient chinese saying too: "To go beyond is as wrong as to fall short"
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On March 30 2023 21:39 GeckoXp wrote:
I respect ZZZero for what he's done and what he wants to do, but it's his dream to live off of Brood War and not mine. Personally, I'm not interested in any "business" that has to do with eSport, to me Brood War is a hobby and not more. And that's what you do not understand at all. Most people repyling here do not only want to watch, but also play in events. For those people BSL is the best tournament out there and you ask them to hand that over to Koreans. Well, why should they have any motivation in doing so? They won't earn more money and they won't gain any positives.
We're more interested in having a stable or even growing player base. If money was the answer we should've seen it making an impact by now or that events in the past would've made a difference. They didn't. Sure, bigger prize pools are appreciated, but they're not the solution to anything. We need newbies and casuals, not tons of gosus. If Koreans or Chinese had any interest for mutual projects, we would gladly welcome them. Experience tells me those communities remain isolated, because they're doing well enough on their own. So be it. This also means that I don't care for their suggestions one bit, if there's no quo for my quid.
Now please reply to the arguments people made here, get a translator if neccessary.
Mr. ZZZero has made many sacrifices for the SC1 community.In order to continue to help your community.He now has to work part-time to make ends meet.
While you are enjoying the SC1 activities brought to you by Mr. ZZZero.Just selfishly saying that what he did has nothing to do with you.
Of course, Mr. ZZZero's current difficulties have nothing to do with you.Cause you don't need to sacrifice anything.You're just sitting here.Waiting for him to bring you free service.
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On March 31 2023 00:37 iFU.spx wrote:
I'll answer in ancient chinese saying too: "To go beyond is as wrong as to fall short"
Ha ha ha.I understand what you mean.Your concern is justified.But we can limit the number of South Korean participants.Or make some special rules for them.Reduce their impact on BSL.
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Chenchuan What you are proposing is being done for the last decade or even more. That is pretty much the reason BSL born with such special rules.
There is been countless of tourneys that include Korean players and most of them were won by them. I actually understand your point cuz in The chinese Scene for some reason u guys are able to gather big names to your tournaments. In our scene Most of the time is a very little known korean that won the tournaments and doesnt bring to much value in return. Most of the time viewers got bored of the same guy winning over and over and also the complains about latency. Communication also can get difficult and frustation over the players rises. There is not deny that if for some reason we could dream of getting Soulkey Mini Snow Rush etc etc that will be incredible and bring insane viewership to the foreign tournaments. Sadly is not the case.And proly will never be. Those guys earn much more money doing daily proleagues to care about participating in a 3 months tournament for few thousands. Not to tell timezone is also horrible. Hope you understand. If you wanna help BSL better focus on spreading the word about it in your communities and mb they will help with sponsorship. Cheers.
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On March 30 2023 22:39 EndingLife wrote:
delete plz
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On March 31 2023 09:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Chenchuan What you are proposing is being done for the last decade or even more. That is pretty much the reason BSL born with such special rules.
There is been countless of tourneys that include Korean players and most of them were won by them. I actually understand your point cuz in The chinese Scene for some reason u guys are able to gather big names to your tournaments. In our scene Most of the time is a very little known korean that won the tournaments and doesnt bring to much value in return. Most of the time viewers got bored of the same guy winning over and over and also the complains about latency. Communication also can get difficult and frustation over the players rises. There is not deny that if for some reason we could dream of getting Soulkey Mini Snow Rush etc etc that will be incredible and bring insane viewership to the foreign tournaments. Sadly is not the case.And proly will never be. Those guys earn much more money doing daily proleagues to care about participating in a 3 months tournament for few thousands. Not to tell timezone is also horrible. Hope you understand. If you wanna help BSL better focus on spreading the word about it in your communities and mb they will help with sponsorship. Cheers.
Thank you for letting go of your prejudices and talking rationally to me.
I heard what you said in the SC1 community in China.An unknown Korean took your championship and bonus.Ha ha ha.This is indeed a tragedy.Please forgive me for laughing out loud.
I'm not trying to change your mind.On the contrary.If Mr. ZZZero could be like Artosis or Tasteless.Can rely on Starcraft to obtain stable income.I won't make any comments.I will only wish you a pleasant time.
I have been promoting BSL in China's StarCraft Forum.I also donate directly to the BSL bonus pool.But whether it's my promotion or a $10 donation.Is almost unhelpful.My power is too small.So I think only wonderful competitions can help BSL.
Can we avoid previous tragedies by setting competition rules？For example, the regional trials implemented by BSL15?A qualifier that allows Koreans and Chinese to participate?Set specific restrictions on Korean players?
I think we should be able to do more.Help Mr. ZZZero and BSL get out of trouble.
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On March 31 2023 08:15 chenchuan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 21:39 GeckoXp wrote:
I respect ZZZero for what he's done and what he wants to do, but it's his dream to live off of Brood War and not mine. Personally, I'm not interested in any "business" that has to do with eSport, to me Brood War is a hobby and not more. And that's what you do not understand at all. Most people repyling here do not only want to watch, but also play in events. For those people BSL is the best tournament out there and you ask them to hand that over to Koreans. Well, why should they have any motivation in doing so? They won't earn more money and they won't gain any positives.
We're more interested in having a stable or even growing player base. If money was the answer we should've seen it making an impact by now or that events in the past would've made a difference. They didn't. Sure, bigger prize pools are appreciated, but they're not the solution to anything. We need newbies and casuals, not tons of gosus. If Koreans or Chinese had any interest for mutual projects, we would gladly welcome them. Experience tells me those communities remain isolated, because they're doing well enough on their own. So be it. This also means that I don't care for their suggestions one bit, if there's no quo for my quid.
Now please reply to the arguments people made here, get a translator if neccessary.
Mr. ZZZero has made many sacrifices for the SC1 community.In order to continue to help your community.He now has to work part-time to make ends meet. While you are enjoying the SC1 activities brought to you by Mr. ZZZero.Just selfishly saying that what he did has nothing to do with you. Of course, Mr. ZZZero's current difficulties have nothing to do with you.Cause you don't need to sacrifice anything.You're just sitting here.Waiting for him to bring you free service.
Not to sideline the amazing work Zzzero has done, but gecko ran and still helps run bwcl which is the largest (in terms of amount of players) and oldest (since 2001) foreign tournament. He doesn't "sit here and wait for free service".
Perhaps you should educate yourself about a few of the people who replied to this thread and also look at the history of foreign run tournaments, you would find it enlightening.
A lot of us have direct experience with the koreans and chinese scenes too. For instance i was in the same clan as PJ, fengzi and chinaTT back in 2009-2010. I also was a WCG grand final referee for many years and worked with kespa. I personally know several korean pros and korean team leaders (pro and semi pros) and former kespa staff/refs. I m also one of the person training every other referee for every game at IESF.
There was never a big interest for Koreans in the foreign scene because the money just doesn't compare, hours are bad and lag is terrible. It never did and never will, unless some Saudi money starts raining on us through ESL. They might consider a weekend event (like tl attack back in the day or some wgt events) but not a multi month one.
That's a fact of life. Additionally we ve had a lot of free run tournaments over 2 decades. To many western people this is a hobby, and we like to support a few players if we can, but noone wants to invest more money (that goes for sponsors too) into it because it s just not how it s been historically.
There is a sunken cost too that is way too often overlooked: we are all working professionals, many of us with kids/mortgages etc. A lot of the people here also dedicate a lot of their personal time for the scene to run.
As an example my time spent running BWCL and helping other tournaments is "free" but very valuable due to my limited freetime. If you considered my hourly pay, it would be a gigantic amount of money. There is just no reason to pay money to see some random koreans with no connection to me come over and bring that cash home with 0 interaction (no coaching, tips, casting etc...).
And if it s one of the people with an actual connection to me, i d just treat them to a meal/drink and we can have fun at a pc bang or something together.
I do wish we had more connection between the scenes at the low levels: academy/coaching etc for sure. That go3s for China too, if you are aware of a CPL equivalent in China, please put us in touch!
But without that, it s just wasting money for no gain. I don't think viewership would even be that great. WCG took a pretty big noise dive after a while, unless a foreigner made a deep run. And people just watched the finals and that was it (they were, admitedly, great games).
Can you remember good WWI or Blizzcon games with high viewership? Because i can't, even if i was there in person. The results were foregone, so it s no fun.
Sorry this ended up being a long post. I think you had a wrong idea of the foreign scene and maybe saw it as wealthier/more robust than it is and if it were the case your proposals would make sense. But that ship has sailed 10+yrs ago, sad as it is.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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On March 31 2023 08:15 chenchuan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 21:39 GeckoXp wrote:
I respect ZZZero for what he's done and what he wants to do, but it's his dream to live off of Brood War and not mine. Personally, I'm not interested in any "business" that has to do with eSport, to me Brood War is a hobby and not more. And that's what you do not understand at all. Most people repyling here do not only want to watch, but also play in events. For those people BSL is the best tournament out there and you ask them to hand that over to Koreans. Well, why should they have any motivation in doing so? They won't earn more money and they won't gain any positives.
We're more interested in having a stable or even growing player base. If money was the answer we should've seen it making an impact by now or that events in the past would've made a difference. They didn't. Sure, bigger prize pools are appreciated, but they're not the solution to anything. We need newbies and casuals, not tons of gosus. If Koreans or Chinese had any interest for mutual projects, we would gladly welcome them. Experience tells me those communities remain isolated, because they're doing well enough on their own. So be it. This also means that I don't care for their suggestions one bit, if there's no quo for my quid.
Now please reply to the arguments people made here, get a translator if neccessary.
Mr. ZZZero has made many sacrifices for the SC1 community.In order to continue to help your community.He now has to work part-time to make ends meet. While you are enjoying the SC1 activities brought to you by Mr. ZZZero.Just selfishly saying that what he did has nothing to do with you. Of course, Mr. ZZZero's current difficulties have nothing to do with you.Cause you don't need to sacrifice anything.You're just sitting here.Waiting for him to bring you free service.
To be clear, earning income working with a game you love is not a sacrifice, a sacrifice would be doing it for free.
Watching BSL as a viewer is a sacrifice because you spend time watching a game instead of earning income. But we still do it because we value the game more than the income.
If i got paid for doing BW stuff i would dedicate time for it too.
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On March 31 2023 08:15 chenchuan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 21:39 GeckoXp wrote:
I respect ZZZero for what he's done and what he wants to do, but it's his dream to live off of Brood War and not mine. Personally, I'm not interested in any "business" that has to do with eSport, to me Brood War is a hobby and not more. And that's what you do not understand at all. Most people repyling here do not only want to watch, but also play in events. For those people BSL is the best tournament out there and you ask them to hand that over to Koreans. Well, why should they have any motivation in doing so? They won't earn more money and they won't gain any positives.
We're more interested in having a stable or even growing player base. If money was the answer we should've seen it making an impact by now or that events in the past would've made a difference. They didn't. Sure, bigger prize pools are appreciated, but they're not the solution to anything. We need newbies and casuals, not tons of gosus. If Koreans or Chinese had any interest for mutual projects, we would gladly welcome them. Experience tells me those communities remain isolated, because they're doing well enough on their own. So be it. This also means that I don't care for their suggestions one bit, if there's no quo for my quid.
Now please reply to the arguments people made here, get a translator if neccessary.
Mr. ZZZero has made many sacrifices for the SC1 community.In order to continue to help your community.He now has to work part-time to make ends meet. While you are enjoying the SC1 activities brought to you by Mr. ZZZero.Just selfishly saying that what he did has nothing to do with you. Of course, Mr. ZZZero's current difficulties have nothing to do with you.Cause you don't need to sacrifice anything.You're just sitting here.Waiting for him to bring you free service.
What now, lol, are only people "allowed" to talk who actively are in favour of your suggestions? Or people who you think have sacrificed anything? What kind of word is sacrifice anyway? We're talking about a god damn video game, nobody should sacrifice as if this was a war of some kind. Even if it was, I would first try to figure out whom I'm talking to, because I'm pretty sure you'd lose the comparison, regardless if it's about money or energy spend on projects. If that's all you have to say: thank you and you may leave.
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On March 31 2023 15:34 GeckoXp wrote:
What now, lol, are only people "allowed" to talk who actively are in favour of your suggestions? Or people who you think have sacrificed anything? What kind of word is sacrifice anyway? We're talking about a god damn video game, nobody should sacrifice as if this was a war of some kind. Even if it was, I would first try to figure out whom I'm talking to, because I'm pretty sure you'd lose the comparison, regardless if it's about money or energy spend on projects. If that's all you have to say: thank you and you may leave.
Of course you can disagree with my suggestion.This is your freedom.I already told you.No one forces you to do anything.
Mr. ZZZero is the only person who currently organizes SC1 events full-time.Even if you don't agree, it's true.If Mr. ZZZero no longer organizes BSL.It's definitely not just that BSL will disappear.Your SC1 community will decline.So please don't say it's none of your business!
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On March 31 2023 16:22 chenchuan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2023 15:34 GeckoXp wrote:
What now, lol, are only people "allowed" to talk who actively are in favour of your suggestions? Or people who you think have sacrificed anything? What kind of word is sacrifice anyway? We're talking about a god damn video game, nobody should sacrifice as if this was a war of some kind. Even if it was, I would first try to figure out whom I'm talking to, because I'm pretty sure you'd lose the comparison, regardless if it's about money or energy spend on projects. If that's all you have to say: thank you and you may leave.
Of course you can disagree with my suggestion.This is your freedom.I already told you.No one forces you to do anything. Mr. ZZZero is the only person who currently organizes SC1 events full-time.Even if you don't agree, it's true.If Mr. ZZZero no longer organizes BSL.It's definitely not just that BSL will disappear.Your SC1 community will decline.So please don't say it's none of your business!
So, what's your point anyway?
That we'd lose a nice event if BSL wasn't there? Big brain time, we're all aware of this fact.
That ZZZero does an awesome job organizing events? Nobody disputes that.
That we could use strategies to grow our scene? Wow, what an innovative thought. Good thing we haven't tried in various ways, including having bleeding weekly tournaments open to Koreans and Chinese. It. got. us. nowhere.
If anything, we should listen to ZZZero and not to some random person who lacks any background info about this community.
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On March 30 2023 11:30 chenchuan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 07:12 Akio wrote:
It’s disingenuous to compare the failures of region block in SC2 to the current situation of Brood War. Just taking the viewership perspective, the circumstances are totally different between the games with SC2 being more popular in the West and vice versa. Are you sure?Whether it's the KSL previously held by Blizzard for SC1.Or the current ASL.Western audiences have no lower ratings than SC2.
I’m not 100% if this is what you mean, but I think most of the viewership for ASL/KSL is Korean. And as someone mentioned here, the fact that the foreign BW scene for players specifically is so small makes BSL special. These top tied foreigner players would have no platform to compete in if you brought in the Koreans for extra viewership, like you’re proposing.
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On March 31 2023 17:44 GeckoXp wrote:So, what's your point anyway? That we'd lose a nice event if BSL wasn't there? Big brain time, we're all aware of this fact. That ZZZero does an awesome job organizing events? Nobody disputes that. That we could use strategies to grow our scene? Wow, what an innovative thought. Good thing we haven't tried in various ways, including having bleeding weekly tournaments open to Koreans and Chinese. It. got. us. nowhere. If anything, we should listen to ZZZero and not to some random person who lacks any background info about this community.
As I said to Mr. Eonzerg yesterday.I'm not trying to change your mind.On the contrary.If Mr. ZZZero could be like Artosis or Tasteless.Can rely on Starcraft to obtain stable income.I won't make any comments.I will only wish you a pleasant time.
Because I know Mr. ZZZero's life is difficult now.He may not hold any more events for SC1.So I hope Mr. ZZZero and BSL can get out of this dilemma.
That's my point of view.
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On March 31 2023 10:55 WGT-Baal wrote:
Not to sideline the amazing work Zzzero has done, but gecko ran and still helps run bwcl which is the largest (in terms of amount of players) and oldest (since 2001) foreign tournament. He doesn't "sit here and wait for free service".
Perhaps you should educate yourself about a few of the people who replied to this thread and also look at the history of foreign run tournaments, you would find it enlightening.
A lot of us have direct experience with the koreans and chinese scenes too. For instance i was in the same clan as PJ, fengzi and chinaTT back in 2009-2010. I also was a WCG grand final referee for many years and worked with kespa. I personally know several korean pros and korean team leaders (pro and semi pros) and former kespa staff/refs. I m also one of the person training every other referee for every game at IESF.
There was never a big interest for Koreans in the foreign scene because the money just doesn't compare, hours are bad and lag is terrible. It never did and never will, unless some Saudi money starts raining on us through ESL. They might consider a weekend event (like tl attack back in the day or some wgt events) but not a multi month one.
That's a fact of life. Additionally we ve had a lot of free run tournaments over 2 decades. To many western people this is a hobby, and we like to support a few players if we can, but noone wants to invest more money (that goes for sponsors too) into it because it s just not how it s been historically.
There is a sunken cost too that is way too often overlooked: we are all working professionals, many of us with kids/mortgages etc. A lot of the people here also dedicate a lot of their personal time for the scene to run.
As an example my time spent running BWCL and helping other tournaments is "free" but very valuable due to my limited freetime. If you considered my hourly pay, it would be a gigantic amount of money. There is just no reason to pay money to see some random koreans with no connection to me come over and bring that cash home with 0 interaction (no coaching, tips, casting etc...).
And if it s one of the people with an actual connection to me, i d just treat them to a meal/drink and we can have fun at a pc bang or something together.
I do wish we had more connection between the scenes at the low levels: academy/coaching etc for sure. That go3s for China too, if you are aware of a CPL equivalent in China, please put us in touch!
But without that, it s just wasting money for no gain. I don't think viewership would even be that great. WCG took a pretty big noise dive after a while, unless a foreigner made a deep run. And people just watched the finals and that was it (they were, admitedly, great games).
Can you remember good WWI or Blizzcon games with high viewership? Because i can't, even if i was there in person. The results were foregone, so it s no fun.
Sorry this ended up being a long post. I think you had a wrong idea of the foreign scene and maybe saw it as wealthier/more robust than it is and if it were the case your proposals would make sense. But that ship has sailed 10+yrs ago, sad as it is.
Thank you for being so detailed.I've already read everything.
You seem to take bonuses too seriously.Let's not discuss the Korean SC community first.Please let me talk to you from the perspective of the SC community in China.
I can tell you responsibly.Most Chinese players participate in BSL.Not because of your bonus.I'm not saying that Chinese players don't like bonuses.Of course, we also like high bonuses.But we enjoy competing with you more.Even if the championship prize is only $100.I believe many Chinese players, including Mihu, are still willing to play with you.
Let's continue to discuss how much bonus should be paid to Korean players.As you saw on the forum, the weekly invitational competitions between China and South Korea.China's SC1 community invites 5 Korean players to participate every week.The total amount paid to them is approximately $200.Even if the Korean contestants invited are Jeadong, Bisu, and Sea waiting for well-known contestants.As long as you're not in Korea's prime time.The amount to be paid will not exceed $300.
Finally, let's talk about time differences and network delays.Network latency can be resolved through network accelerators.Although there will still be some impacts.But it's not that you can't play.Jet lag is a good thing to some extent.Because it's possible to stagger the golden period in South Korea.Such a large number of South Korean players will be willing to participate.Because there were no matches in South Korea at that time.
If you want your SC1 community to continue to grow.It must be the best way to compete with top Korean players.
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EPT
