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On October 05 2021 16:18 Timebon3s wrote:
People invest huge amount of money in stocks they know nothing about, all the time.
Just because you never did it doesn’t mean others are as smart as you.
Besides, crypto is pretty new and people are blinded by the insane returns a little investment in Bitcoin 10 years ago would bring.
This is just Koreas being thirsty for drama and want to hate successful streamers
Except nobody cares if he invests in stocks or crypto or 12 tons of Pocari Sweat. It's about the audience that will hype the coin worth. You're confusing what people are finding distasteful.
Go check what's happening to Faze. Similar situation, except, they went through with it and are facing consequences.
Go check what Mark Cuban did with 70k hyping a coin to an audience.
Ignorance isn't sufficient to me if you screw over hundreds or thousands of people. People lost life savings on Cuban hyping the coin he was selling anyway. Faze fans lost life savings first day because that was the plan, to sell after the hype and dump the coin.
These are actual examples of what this could have been, which is the distaste, using an audience to boost the price.
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So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
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On October 07 2021 11:21 jaytep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2021 15:48 MinixTheNerd wrote:On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote:
Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money.... You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance. For your first part, yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruits. They have way more in common than apples and subways. Match fixing, bad.. promoting coin this way, bad. Bad is the category, not that those two are the same actual thing. I'm glad you noticed I'm comparing apples to oranges. I know a guy that was a progamer from um, 2004 to I think it was 2010 or 2011. They have way more say in the business side of things than you're trying to put off, he isn't a B team practice partner 12 year old. There's quite a few TL profiles noting players who negotiated deals and left teams because they were underused based on their contract and all different types of stuff that they had a hand in and a say in. Or, look at the LoL guys who basically run their show, and Overwatch pros as well. I don't disagree their job is to play, practice, win, and be a face. You think LeBron just knows nothing about how to sell himself? When his manager says Nike is offering him 300 bucks for a commercial he's just like, well, I'm just a player, I guess I'll just do it... Flash just knows jack shit about stream sponsors etc? He has done appearances, interviews, maybe set up by managers, but he's just dumb and doesn't know what's going on? Managers just save time and find it all, it's actually an easy job in general and many players and actors and bands represent themselves.. Just because he's a pro gamer doesn't mean he knows nothing else. I'm a pro banker and I study language on the side and speak 5 atm. I play a few sports at competitive levels. You can know more than 1 thing. Some of these guys are great chefs, athletes, my friend also was a great software bro while a pro gamer, and is now working in that field in gaming.. To your second point, sure, I don't think you're off base at all. However, you would have to believe in this scenario, that Flash is an idiot, and quite literally only knows StarCraft and literally nothing else. If you believe that, it is what it is. I can't change your mind on it nor will I try then. I however don't. I think he is at minimum an average guy, who would be able to fathom a modern world where he can search engine something in 20 seconds and find an answer before dumping 300k in something your putting forth that he knows nothing about. Like I have said, possible, but unlikely. As for a second chance, is the match fixing coming more into play here now? Is my apples to oranges comparison off target? Savior, UpMagic, Luxury, go.go, and whoever the rest are I can't remember.. should.. get a second a chance, ...like... Flash? Let's do it. I forgive Flash right now. Now bring back UpMagic.
You're honestly being ridiculous. Just because you know one pro-gamer that manages his own finances (whom you can't even really seem to name, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) doesn't mean all pro-gamers do. I know for a fact most do not, and it makes sense, because unlike Overwatch or LoL, BW pros start at a very young age, its not uncommon for them to be playing professionally as young as age 15, are you really gonna tell me a 15 year old is capable of managing his finances? I would surprised if most 15 years would even have a real bank account let alone understand how the laws behind a cryptocurrency contract work.
Secondly, you're "argument" that because you're a banker and is multilingual automatically means that broodwar pros should also be able to learn university level economics/finance in their free time is plain stupid. Kespa era broodwar was notorious for having ridiculous practice hours like 16 hours per day level practice hours. It's basically a full time job and a life commitment in many ways, there is no way for them to have the time to learn much else to any significant degree during that period of time. So when a successful player like flash decides to retire from the kespa style pro-gaming with a large amount of disposable income, you can bet that he/she would invest a portion of their money into something they might not understand but may turnover high returns.
Thirdly, yes Lebron is a good at marketing himself, but a lot of athletes and public figures are not, its why they have PR managers. Celebrities use them, politicians use them, and yes KESPA teams also used them to market their players, its common practice really. You keep trying to bring up the few outliers but that's exactly what they are outliers. Hell even Conor McGregor has a PR manager.
Fourthly, have you ever read a formal contract? Like go try to take a bank loan or something and have a read, but I can guarantee you the jargon can throw off a lot of people unfamiliar with the terminology and they would likely need to clarify a few questions with the banking staff or at the very least spend some time googling. Now try to imagine some veteran scam artist maybe approaching your mum or something showing her a chart of bitcoin prices or w/e and then smooth talking her into the idea of investing while guarantee a cost free way to hedge any risks. Do you really expect a pro-gamer's mum will instantly understand the fine details or legality on a cryptocurrency contract? Maybe your mum's a genius but I can tell you even veteran investors get caught in the fine details.
I don't get why you seem so obsessed about lynching famous pro-gamers, but seriously are you even sure you know the whole story here?
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Northern Ireland22976 Posts
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
Was the controversial aspect not Flash having his initial investment protected in a way that would not be the case for any of his viewers who chose to invest?
Perhaps I am mistaken and this was shown to not be the case.
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As far as I'm aware, the controversial aspect was Flash participating in a "pump and dump" making money off of his viewerbase. (without any evidence ofc)
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On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No.
There isn't one place where I said this was the case.
It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue.
Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously.
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On October 07 2021 19:38 MinixTheNerd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2021 11:21 jaytep wrote:On October 05 2021 15:48 MinixTheNerd wrote:On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote:
Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money.... You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance. For your first part, yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruits. They have way more in common than apples and subways. Match fixing, bad.. promoting coin this way, bad. Bad is the category, not that those two are the same actual thing. I'm glad you noticed I'm comparing apples to oranges. I know a guy that was a progamer from um, 2004 to I think it was 2010 or 2011. They have way more say in the business side of things than you're trying to put off, he isn't a B team practice partner 12 year old. There's quite a few TL profiles noting players who negotiated deals and left teams because they were underused based on their contract and all different types of stuff that they had a hand in and a say in. Or, look at the LoL guys who basically run their show, and Overwatch pros as well. I don't disagree their job is to play, practice, win, and be a face. You think LeBron just knows nothing about how to sell himself? When his manager says Nike is offering him 300 bucks for a commercial he's just like, well, I'm just a player, I guess I'll just do it... Flash just knows jack shit about stream sponsors etc? He has done appearances, interviews, maybe set up by managers, but he's just dumb and doesn't know what's going on? Managers just save time and find it all, it's actually an easy job in general and many players and actors and bands represent themselves.. Just because he's a pro gamer doesn't mean he knows nothing else. I'm a pro banker and I study language on the side and speak 5 atm. I play a few sports at competitive levels. You can know more than 1 thing. Some of these guys are great chefs, athletes, my friend also was a great software bro while a pro gamer, and is now working in that field in gaming.. To your second point, sure, I don't think you're off base at all. However, you would have to believe in this scenario, that Flash is an idiot, and quite literally only knows StarCraft and literally nothing else. If you believe that, it is what it is. I can't change your mind on it nor will I try then. I however don't. I think he is at minimum an average guy, who would be able to fathom a modern world where he can search engine something in 20 seconds and find an answer before dumping 300k in something your putting forth that he knows nothing about. Like I have said, possible, but unlikely. As for a second chance, is the match fixing coming more into play here now? Is my apples to oranges comparison off target? Savior, UpMagic, Luxury, go.go, and whoever the rest are I can't remember.. should.. get a second a chance, ...like... Flash? Let's do it. I forgive Flash right now. Now bring back UpMagic. You're honestly being ridiculous. Just because you know one pro-gamer that manages his own finances (whom you can't even really seem to name, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) doesn't mean all pro-gamers do. I know for a fact most do not, and it makes sense, because unlike Overwatch or LoL, BW pros start at a very young age, its not uncommon for them to be playing professionally as young as age 15, are you really gonna tell me a 15 year old is capable of managing his finances? I would surprised if most 15 years would even have a real bank account let alone understand how the laws behind a cryptocurrency contract work. Secondly, you're "argument" that because you're a banker and is multilingual automatically means that broodwar pros should also be able to learn university level economics/finance in their free time is plain stupid. Kespa era broodwar was notorious for having ridiculous practice hours like 16 hours per day level practice hours. It's basically a full time job and a life commitment in many ways, there is no way for them to have the time to learn much else to any significant degree during that period of time. So when a successful player like flash decides to retire from the kespa style pro-gaming with a large amount of disposable income, you can bet that he/she would invest a portion of their money into something they might not understand but may turnover high returns. Thirdly, yes Lebron is a good at marketing himself, but a lot of athletes and public figures are not, its why they have PR managers. Celebrities use them, politicians use them, and yes KESPA teams also used them to market their players, its common practice really. You keep trying to bring up the few outliers but that's exactly what they are outliers. Hell even Conor McGregor has a PR manager. Fourthly, have you ever read a formal contract? Like go try to take a bank loan or something and have a read, but I can guarantee you the jargon can throw off a lot of people unfamiliar with the terminology and they would likely need to clarify a few questions with the banking staff or at the very least spend some time googling. Now try to imagine some veteran scam artist maybe approaching your mum or something showing her a chart of bitcoin prices or w/e and then smooth talking her into the idea of investing while guarantee a cost free way to hedge any risks. Do you really expect a pro-gamer's mum will instantly understand the fine details or legality on a cryptocurrency contract? Maybe your mum's a genius but I can tell you even veteran investors get caught in the fine details. I don't get why you seem so obsessed about lynching famous pro-gamers, but seriously are you even sure you know the whole story here?
I don't only know one progamer. Just one that I'm using as an example.
I can 'seem' to name him, nobody asked, I know him personally since I was 10 fr the same hometown, school, and sports. I won't name him however for his own privacy. If you believe me or not, it is irrelevant because even if I don't know anyone, my point still remains.
I never said all. Never, not once. I'm using almost 6 years of living in Korea and being around pro gamers I know personally before becoming pro gamers as my background. I don't know all, wouldn't ever suggest I do. Not sure why you're taking issue with 'all' when that has never been a part of this conversation.
I've noted that the person we are talking about, Flash, is not a 12 year old B team practice partner. Do you know how old Flash is? Do you know how in demand he is in the SC world? You know for a fact most do not? It only takes a little googling to find out that isn't true. Minus the fact that there's plenty of people that know pro players that quite literally have mentioned exactly what I said. I wonder why?
How is my "argument" stupid? Do you know Best? Um, what does he do? He doesn't know anything about restaurants, right? Lots of pro players are well known for doing other things. Forget the other dude from ASL like last season where they were talking about him owning a building and all that.. maybe Mini? I remember idra and incontrol on some team house interview talking about spending their extra time body building.. But maybe you're right, these guys literally do nothing else. They can't, right?
Me being a banker working 12 to 14 hour days is similar to that 16 hour day you're talking about for them, I have 1 hour one way commute, there's your 16. If I can do other things in my life, they can too. They do. Like I said, my friend was a pro for 6ish years and in that time learned XYZ to become a software engineer when he retired. Watch pro streams they even play other games at highish levels and some switch like a guy switched to HOTS.. wonder how that's possible with your model of these guy's life.
You're seemingly full on hard mode to misunderstand what the distaste is for. Nobody cares he sucks at investing.
Maybe you're not fully reading what I'm writing. I'll write it two more times for you. Nobody. Cares. He. Sucks. At. Investing.
Nobody cares he sucks at investing.
It's about the audience.
For your question, yes, I've read contracts, it's a daily thing. When I don't know something............
..
Omg what should I do? Maybe........... Ask?
What a concept.
You probably still didn't check out Faze, or Cuban. Takes literally 20 seconds of googling to see if this is distasteful to include your audience.
I'm not lynching anyone. It's just a fact that this isn't good. Nothing to it. I don't know the legalities of this in Korea. Doubt it's going to amount to anything.
Again. Really read this next sentence. Nobody cares he doesn't know how to invest.
With that knowledge, try to understand that it isn't about him investing.
What I've been doubting is that he didn't know it would be distasteful to share with his audience. His management, since he is unable to think, declines product ads for him all the time, I'm sure. They need a certain image etc and will decline stuff their brand doesn't want to be associated with. I work with this each day in reputational risk. So, they decline other stuff to show their audience, but just not this.. let's not read into it and just screw it.. let's go against protecting this gamer who knows nothing.
Not doubting he doesn't know how to invest.... Doubting he doesn't know what he can and shouldn't share with his audience.
Since you're of the opinion he just knows nothing and has people feed him and all, why wouldn't his team have schooled him on what to and not to say to an audience? Shouldn't they be more careful of this know-nothing slug that we need to live the rest of his life for him because he just SCs and can't do anything else.
I hope you understand that you're arguing against something that I'm not arguing. If you still disagree with my position that's fine, but at least disagree with me on whether it's okay or not to share pump and dump stock advice with an audience...
As I've said, I don't care if he spends his money on stocks or crypto or Pocari Sweat. I don't care how much he knows about those things. It's once you bring it to the audience, it becomes what I'm arguing/discussing.
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On October 08 2021 02:44 jaytep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
You mean like 99% of people who invest/gamble on crypto?
Or people who buy stocks? Or pretty much everything that has to do with investing?
It makes perfect sense, this is how the world of trading works.
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On October 08 2021 04:32 Timebon3s wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 02:44 jaytep wrote:On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part. You mean like 99% of people who invest/gamble on crypto? Or people who buy stocks? Or pretty much everything that has to do with investing? It makes perfect sense, this is how the world of trading works.
No, I don't mean that.
I don't care that he invests without knowledge/info.
You didn't read what I said. Here, I'll write it again even though you quoted it.
It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
You see a difference for what I'm saying and what you're trying to disagree with? You're disagreeing with something I'm not and have never said. You think I just care he is investing. I don't. It's investing, AND.. as well, also, +, sharing with the audience. How do you not see the difference? Maybe I'll make it like bullet points?
-He invests, he farts, he eats cereal.
(This is what you think I have an issue with.)
-He invests and shares what he is investing in, which people know leads to pump and dump schemes, even though it didn't get there, it is distasteful because we know where it could go.
(This is what I have an issue with.)
99 percent of people DO NOT have a big audience to share a new stock/crypto to invest in, now that you understand my issue is with sharing with the audience.
It is unequivocally not how the world of trading works. People have been caught trying to convince their audience to buy. It's happened with crypto.. see Faze and Mark Cuban, it's happened year after year with stocks, it's in the news all the time. Know Suze Orman the TV girl? Tells her audience to buy gold, dumps the stock, stock plummets, her audience loses money. This pump and dump is not new.
And for real this is not how the world of investing works. It does happen, but it isn't just how it works as a normal thing like you're saying, but that was before you understood that it's about sharing not doing.
HENCE his and other apologies. Are forgetting he is apologizing for this? He is admitting he was wrong........
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On October 08 2021 03:02 jaytep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2021 19:38 MinixTheNerd wrote:On October 07 2021 11:21 jaytep wrote:On October 05 2021 15:48 MinixTheNerd wrote:On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote:
Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money.... You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance. For your first part, yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruits. They have way more in common than apples and subways. Match fixing, bad.. promoting coin this way, bad. Bad is the category, not that those two are the same actual thing. I'm glad you noticed I'm comparing apples to oranges. I know a guy that was a progamer from um, 2004 to I think it was 2010 or 2011. They have way more say in the business side of things than you're trying to put off, he isn't a B team practice partner 12 year old. There's quite a few TL profiles noting players who negotiated deals and left teams because they were underused based on their contract and all different types of stuff that they had a hand in and a say in. Or, look at the LoL guys who basically run their show, and Overwatch pros as well. I don't disagree their job is to play, practice, win, and be a face. You think LeBron just knows nothing about how to sell himself? When his manager says Nike is offering him 300 bucks for a commercial he's just like, well, I'm just a player, I guess I'll just do it... Flash just knows jack shit about stream sponsors etc? He has done appearances, interviews, maybe set up by managers, but he's just dumb and doesn't know what's going on? Managers just save time and find it all, it's actually an easy job in general and many players and actors and bands represent themselves.. Just because he's a pro gamer doesn't mean he knows nothing else. I'm a pro banker and I study language on the side and speak 5 atm. I play a few sports at competitive levels. You can know more than 1 thing. Some of these guys are great chefs, athletes, my friend also was a great software bro while a pro gamer, and is now working in that field in gaming.. To your second point, sure, I don't think you're off base at all. However, you would have to believe in this scenario, that Flash is an idiot, and quite literally only knows StarCraft and literally nothing else. If you believe that, it is what it is. I can't change your mind on it nor will I try then. I however don't. I think he is at minimum an average guy, who would be able to fathom a modern world where he can search engine something in 20 seconds and find an answer before dumping 300k in something your putting forth that he knows nothing about. Like I have said, possible, but unlikely. As for a second chance, is the match fixing coming more into play here now? Is my apples to oranges comparison off target? Savior, UpMagic, Luxury, go.go, and whoever the rest are I can't remember.. should.. get a second a chance, ...like... Flash? Let's do it. I forgive Flash right now. Now bring back UpMagic. You're honestly being ridiculous. Just because you know one pro-gamer that manages his own finances (whom you can't even really seem to name, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) doesn't mean all pro-gamers do. I know for a fact most do not, and it makes sense, because unlike Overwatch or LoL, BW pros start at a very young age, its not uncommon for them to be playing professionally as young as age 15, are you really gonna tell me a 15 year old is capable of managing his finances? I would surprised if most 15 years would even have a real bank account let alone understand how the laws behind a cryptocurrency contract work. Secondly, you're "argument" that because you're a banker and is multilingual automatically means that broodwar pros should also be able to learn university level economics/finance in their free time is plain stupid. Kespa era broodwar was notorious for having ridiculous practice hours like 16 hours per day level practice hours. It's basically a full time job and a life commitment in many ways, there is no way for them to have the time to learn much else to any significant degree during that period of time. So when a successful player like flash decides to retire from the kespa style pro-gaming with a large amount of disposable income, you can bet that he/she would invest a portion of their money into something they might not understand but may turnover high returns. Thirdly, yes Lebron is a good at marketing himself, but a lot of athletes and public figures are not, its why they have PR managers. Celebrities use them, politicians use them, and yes KESPA teams also used them to market their players, its common practice really. You keep trying to bring up the few outliers but that's exactly what they are outliers. Hell even Conor McGregor has a PR manager. Fourthly, have you ever read a formal contract? Like go try to take a bank loan or something and have a read, but I can guarantee you the jargon can throw off a lot of people unfamiliar with the terminology and they would likely need to clarify a few questions with the banking staff or at the very least spend some time googling. Now try to imagine some veteran scam artist maybe approaching your mum or something showing her a chart of bitcoin prices or w/e and then smooth talking her into the idea of investing while guarantee a cost free way to hedge any risks. Do you really expect a pro-gamer's mum will instantly understand the fine details or legality on a cryptocurrency contract? Maybe your mum's a genius but I can tell you even veteran investors get caught in the fine details. I don't get why you seem so obsessed about lynching famous pro-gamers, but seriously are you even sure you know the whole story here? I don't only know one progamer. Just one that I'm using as an example. I can 'seem' to name him, nobody asked, I know him personally since I was 10 fr the same hometown, school, and sports. I won't name him however for his own privacy. If you believe me or not, it is irrelevant because even if I don't know anyone, my point still remains. I never said all. Never, not once. I'm using almost 6 years of living in Korea and being around pro gamers I know personally before becoming pro gamers as my background. I don't know all, wouldn't ever suggest I do. Not sure why you're taking issue with 'all' when that has never been a part of this conversation. I've noted that the person we are talking about, Flash, is not a 12 year old B team practice partner. Do you know how old Flash is? Do you know how in demand he is in the SC world? You know for a fact most do not? It only takes a little googling to find out that isn't true. Minus the fact that there's plenty of people that know pro players that quite literally have mentioned exactly what I said. I wonder why? How is my "argument" stupid? Do you know Best? Um, what does he do? He doesn't know anything about restaurants, right? Lots of pro players are well known for doing other things. Forget the other dude from ASL like last season where they were talking about him owning a building and all that.. maybe Mini? I remember idra and incontrol on some team house interview talking about spending their extra time body building.. But maybe you're right, these guys literally do nothing else. They can't, right? Me being a banker working 12 to 14 hour days is similar to that 16 hour day you're talking about for them, I have 1 hour one way commute, there's your 16. If I can do other things in my life, they can too. They do. Like I said, my friend was a pro for 6ish years and in that time learned XYZ to become a software engineer when he retired. Watch pro streams they even play other games at highish levels and some switch like a guy switched to HOTS.. wonder how that's possible with your model of these guy's life. You're seemingly full on hard mode to misunderstand what the distaste is for. Nobody cares he sucks at investing. Maybe you're not fully reading what I'm writing. I'll write it two more times for you. Nobody. Cares. He. Sucks. At. Investing. Nobody cares he sucks at investing. It's about the audience. For your question, yes, I've read contracts, it's a daily thing. When I don't know something............ .. Omg what should I do? Maybe........... Ask? What a concept. You probably still didn't check out Faze, or Cuban. Takes literally 20 seconds of googling to see if this is distasteful to include your audience. I'm not lynching anyone. It's just a fact that this isn't good. Nothing to it. I don't know the legalities of this in Korea. Doubt it's going to amount to anything. Again. Really read this next sentence. Nobody cares he doesn't know how to invest. With that knowledge, try to understand that it isn't about him investing. What I've been doubting is that he didn't know it would be distasteful to share with his audience. His management, since he is unable to think, declines product ads for him all the time, I'm sure. They need a certain image etc and will decline stuff their brand doesn't want to be associated with. I work with this each day in reputational risk. So, they decline other stuff to show their audience, but just not this.. let's not read into it and just screw it.. let's go against protecting this gamer who knows nothing. Not doubting he doesn't know how to invest.... Doubting he doesn't know what he can and shouldn't share with his audience. Since you're of the opinion he just knows nothing and has people feed him and all, why wouldn't his team have schooled him on what to and not to say to an audience? Shouldn't they be more careful of this know-nothing slug that we need to live the rest of his life for him because he just SCs and can't do anything else. I hope you understand that you're arguing against something that I'm not arguing. If you still disagree with my position that's fine, but at least disagree with me on whether it's okay or not to share pump and dump stock advice with an audience... As I've said, I don't care if he spends his money on stocks or crypto or Pocari Sweat. I don't care how much he knows about those things. It's once you bring it to the audience, it becomes what I'm arguing/discussing.
The amount of BS coming out of your mouth is unbelievable. At this point I'm pretty sure you don't know these pro-gamers and I'm certain they don't know you. Pro-gamers "owning" a building or a restaurant doesn't mean they have spent their lives planning for this, it was almost certainly something like a family business or investment, that they are learning the ropes in their post gamer retirement years. I highly doubt they just bought a restaurant randomly off the streets and decided to run it themselves.
Also you're idiotic point about working 12-14 hours as a banker is equal to a pro-gamer's 16 if you count commute, is stupid. You had the benefit of a full education presumably a university level degree or equivalent. They had to give up most of their high school education to pursue pro-gaming. There is a big difference. It is much much harder for a 25ish year old with a high school degree to transition into a normal office job. This is why most of these pro-gamers are either sticking to streaming or just taking over a family business or investing their money into a high yield commodity. You're whole argument of "I know this one guy or have a friend who is now a software engineer" doesn't valid the situation most pro-gamers experience these days. Not every pro practiced in a team house or stuck with streaming or made enough money to re-educate or come from a family with enough resources to carry them into a second career.
Quite frankly you're just being a child and lazily grouping all pro-gamers into a single category. I know you don't have any real relation with these pros, or are you saying people should ask Best, Mini, Flash, etc if they heard of Jaytep just to prove you wrong?
Don't bother responding Jaytep, I rather not read someone spouting demagoguery rather than facts or reason.
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It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
So if he invested in apple stock or index funds and said so on his stream, that would be just as “distasteful” as with this crypto thing?
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On October 08 2021 17:28 Timebon3s wrote:Show nested quote +It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part. So if he invested in apple stock or index funds and said so on his stream, that would be just as “distasteful” as with this crypto thing?
If he was guaranteed a full refund and doesn't disclose that to his audience, then yes. His incentive to invest would increase manifold, but not that of his audience. That's a form of false advertising because Flash's audience would be getting a much worse deal than him.
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Ok, so it really doesn’t matter then. It’s just a witch-hunt like I thought from the beginning.
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Northern Ireland22976 Posts
On October 09 2021 17:45 Timebon3s wrote:
Ok, so it really doesn’t matter then. It’s just a witch-hunt like I thought from the beginning.
Why’s it a witch-hunt?
It was mentioned earlier in the thread, I’m unsure if it was confirmed either way, although subsequently have asked, that Flash had his investment guaranteed/protected.
There is a world of difference between pushing an investment product to your audience when you’re also at risk of losing all your money, versus when you are not and don’t disclose it.
As I said I dipped into this thread in its early stages, where it was suggested but not confirmed that this was the case for Flash.
End of the day it’s a nascent industry, completely devoid of professional standards. Mistakes will be made but people need to use their common sense that they earn a living streaming because many people hero worship them, and be careful of how they wield that power.
I’ve heard of much worse where popular personalities clearly intentionally abuse their power and the parasocial relationship they have with their audience, I don’t see this as being anything malicious in the same vein.
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the last information we got was that their investments were not protected once the coin went to market
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On October 08 2021 02:44 jaytep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No. There isn't one place where I said this was the case. It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue. Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part. The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously.
Investing is always on the person investing. I stopped informing people about crypto since its a volatile market but with any investment you make its always your own fault if you lose it. Never the person that got you into it. You can try to pick up the point that Flash is someone with influence and reach but it applies to him still.
If Vitalik Buterin himself told me to go allin on a crypto project, I'd still do my own research before and if I lose all of it thats still on me. People need to learn that.
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On October 09 2021 23:45 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2021 02:44 jaytep wrote:On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No. There isn't one place where I said this was the case. It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue. Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part. The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously. Investing is always on the person investing. I stopped informing people about crypto since its a volatile market but with any investment you make its always your own fault if you lose it. Never the person that got you into it. You can try to pick up the point that Flash is someone with influence and reach but it applies to him still. If Vitalik Buterin himself told me to go allin on a crypto project, I'd still do my own research before and if I lose all of it thats still on me. People need to learn that.
Sorry but this "it's your own fault" argument is not a strong one - in general and, depending on where you come from, legally. In Germany for example, influencers now have to label advertisement as such. And for a good reason because they have stakes in it and others need the information that advertising a product might have other reasons than "this product is good".
That does't mean I don't agree with the sentiment that people should be more critical and do their own research. However, that doesn't excuse advertisement with ulterior motives. Those motives need to be known in order for the person to make an informed decision. Who are you going to believe and where do you get your much needed information for your own research from if nobody discloses their motives?
It doesn't surprise though that this is a common argument of justification coming from the "crypto community" as it's a form of investment that depends upon some people losing money in order to make money.
//Note: Not commenting on Flash here because I don't have enough non-contradictory information on what he did. Just a general statement.
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got scammed? its your fault for not being smarter
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On October 10 2021 00:53 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2021 23:45 TaKeTV wrote:On October 08 2021 02:44 jaytep wrote:On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No. There isn't one place where I said this was the case. It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue. Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part. The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously. Investing is always on the person investing. I stopped informing people about crypto since its a volatile market but with any investment you make its always your own fault if you lose it. Never the person that got you into it. You can try to pick up the point that Flash is someone with influence and reach but it applies to him still. If Vitalik Buterin himself told me to go allin on a crypto project, I'd still do my own research before and if I lose all of it thats still on me. People need to learn that. Sorry but this "it's your own fault" argument is not a strong one - in general and, depending on where you come from, legally. In Germany for example, influencers now have to label advertisement as such. And for a good reason because they have stakes in it and others need the information that advertising a product might have other reasons than "this product is good". That does't mean I don't agree with the sentiment that people should be more critical and do their own research. However, that doesn't excuse advertisement with ulterior motives. Those motives need to be known in order for the person to make an informed decision. Who are you going to believe and where do you get your much needed information for your own research from if nobody discloses their motives? It doesn't surprise though that this is a common argument of justification coming from the "crypto community" as it's a form of investment that depends upon some people losing money in order to make money. //Note: Not commenting on Flash here because I don't have enough non-contradictory information on what he did. Just a general statement.
I am from Germany and Flash didnt get paid for it right? No reason to label it. You can argue his investment being secure is a form of payment. If I am telling my viewers I am invested in ETH and someone goes all in and it drops to Zero I still didnt have to label it.
Actually for me its more about a general ruling instead of an argument. Investments are always your own choice. My opinion at least
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On October 10 2021 15:21 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2021 00:53 Miragee wrote:On October 09 2021 23:45 TaKeTV wrote:On October 08 2021 02:44 jaytep wrote:On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No. There isn't one place where I said this was the case. It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue. Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part. The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously. Investing is always on the person investing. I stopped informing people about crypto since its a volatile market but with any investment you make its always your own fault if you lose it. Never the person that got you into it. You can try to pick up the point that Flash is someone with influence and reach but it applies to him still. If Vitalik Buterin himself told me to go allin on a crypto project, I'd still do my own research before and if I lose all of it thats still on me. People need to learn that. Sorry but this "it's your own fault" argument is not a strong one - in general and, depending on where you come from, legally. In Germany for example, influencers now have to label advertisement as such. And for a good reason because they have stakes in it and others need the information that advertising a product might have other reasons than "this product is good". That does't mean I don't agree with the sentiment that people should be more critical and do their own research. However, that doesn't excuse advertisement with ulterior motives. Those motives need to be known in order for the person to make an informed decision. Who are you going to believe and where do you get your much needed information for your own research from if nobody discloses their motives? It doesn't surprise though that this is a common argument of justification coming from the "crypto community" as it's a form of investment that depends upon some people losing money in order to make money. //Note: Not commenting on Flash here because I don't have enough non-contradictory information on what he did. Just a general statement. I am from Germany and Flash didnt get paid for it right? No reason to label it. You can argue his investment being secure is a form of payment. If I am telling my viewers I am invested in ETH and someone goes all in and it drops to Zero I still didnt have to label it. Actually for me its more about a general ruling instead of an argument. Investments are always your own choice. My opinion at least
Well, whether Flash's investment was secure is the point of contention as far as I understood. If it was secure then yes, I would definitely consider it a form of payment. But as I said, I feel like I don't know enough about Flash's case to make a judgement.
If you are investing without payment or other advantages given to you and tell that your viewers I guess that is ok. Depending on your reach/influence I still find it questionable to do it. Obviously it's everyone's own choice but if you are a trusted source for many you could intentionally try to play on low human instincts (not saying that you specifically are!) to your own advantage as it is most likely good for you if others invest into something you are already invested in. It's a grey area I would say.
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EPT
