Hai all,

I am watching Action vs Free ASL10 with Tastosis and heard them talking about hive tech and I honestly don't get why it would make a difference....

so I know Z is rushing towards hive v Terran to get Defilers, Ultras, etc...

I just don't get why hive tech is any good versus P. Defilers are under-utilized.
No guardians are used. No Ultras. Is it just for upgrades?

Thanks

AZ

2Pacalypse-

Croatia9517 Posts

September 22 2020 10:59 GMT

Two words: adrenal glands.

Bonyth

Poland582 Posts

September 22 2020 11:00 GMT

Cracklings, plague, swarm even nydus.

prosatan

Romania8490 Posts

September 22 2020 11:22 GMT

Ultras are used a bit in ZvP

iFU.pauline

France1655 Posts

September 22 2020 12:40 GMT

You could watch some jaedong replays, particularly the ones from that prorep pack from 2009, he spams fast hive vs protoss and gets in 12min45sec adrenal with 1/2 upgrade with 4 bases while protoss still has zero armor which is insane and require massive apm and good defense. You can find this BO in its most abusive way with those 2 famous reps of jaedong vs bisu on circuit-breaker where he doesn't even bother making lurker before taking fourth while going hive tech (do not try this at home). This gameplay will get you to late game with an advantage in upgrade. It is in no way better or worse than a "standard" gameplay, it's just a different style.

To summarize, the main advantage (from my perspective) of hive tech is crackling + defiler while upgrading armor first instead of attack. Expect very long games.

FlaShFTW

United States10231 Posts

September 22 2020 13:23 GMT

Cracklings are insane, 3/3 upgrades are great, defilers are important, nydus is nice for 4 base turtle zerg.

3/3 upgrades are pretty important too because it means late game, zealots 3-shot lings instead of 2-shot.

AttackZerg

United States7465 Posts

September 22 2020 15:22 GMT

Just to add, Cracklings kill bases in half (?) the time, so it reduces the number of lings to make a drop or counter effective.
The threat of crack-drops, and lurker/crack/defiler expo attacks.

The longer the game, the more spread out Protoss will be and cracklings force protoss to have tech units spread out to defend cost effectively. Even if you are behind in upgrades, cracklings let you pick up templar until protoss gets +2 armor, then you gotta have upgrades.

And then Nydus allows you to shift armies incredibly fast, so if Protoss goes for a large ground kill, you can base trade or move units to surround the attacking force.

And defiler/ultra/gaurdian are gas heavily tools that pair well with extremely effective mineral only cracklings.

CadenZie

Korea (South)545 Posts

September 22 2020 15:43 GMT

going hive in 2020? crazy talk, every game is just defend vs the 8gate and out-grow with shshsh

AttackZerg

United States7465 Posts

September 22 2020 15:44 GMT

Note to self - stop dying to 8 gate.

Anc13nt

1557 Posts

September 22 2020 19:41 GMT

#10

that's funny hive tech is probably the most powerful thing in the game alongside late game mech.

Edit: All the reasons mentioned so far are correct. Also 3/3 lings destroy cannons quickly (and take 3 cannon hits to kill). The main reason for going into hive is for upgrades, adrenal glands and defiler tech. Ultras and guardians do have their place in ZvP lategame. For example, guardians are used to overwhelm/surprise a losing protoss who only has ht + reaver + cannon defense and will struggle to make sair/scout/dark archon to deal with guardians. Ultras are good against the early late game composition but not very good against an army with many archons and reavers.

tbf, hive isn't as important as before because mass hydra and muta hydra is a lot more meta nowadays whereas the 4 base wall into mass sunken into hive style is not as popular. I am not sure why this happened though.

cRoSsy

66 Posts

September 22 2020 19:54 GMT

#11

On September 23 2020 00:43 CadenZie wrote:
going hive in 2020? crazy talk, every game is just defend vs the 8gate and out-grow with shshsh

LOL

Grouhh

57 Posts

September 23 2020 08:34 GMT

#12

In the long run, Zerg usually can't stay on Lair tech forever. Once protoss gets a critical mass of dragoons and enough templars with energy, Hydra/Lurker/ling becomes less effective.

To illustrate that, you can have a look at this recent BSL10 game - Dewalt vs Sziky
+ Show Spoiler +

Of course, there are many reasons why Dewalt's attack is so successful (ideal angle, great micro, clamped lurkers, then high ground advantage), but you can see that hydras just can't get close to the protoss army without either being stormed to death or taking massive damage from the goons.
Now, once zerg has Hive tech (and I'm not pretending that's what Sziky should have done, I have no idea what Sziky should have done), dragoon's value drastically decreases because of swarm, plague, and cracklings, and zerg can take way better fights.

...onmYwaY

92 Posts

September 23 2020 11:10 GMT

#13

The most important aspect of Hive tech ZvP IMO is cost effectiveness. Dark Swarm removes damage from dragoons, Adrenal Glands up the cost effectiveness of zerglings, and upgrades of course. With Hive you can go 4 base vs. 4 base ZvP and maintain, or extend lead from there (camp ramp with lurkers and Dark Swarm, and in extension Nydus is free base).

This is why I think Hive tech is more important on maps where Protoss has easier to expand (chokes where cannon/storm is very cost effective).

Ideas

United States8142 Posts

September 23 2020 13:03 GMT

#14

On September 22 2020 20:22 prosatan wrote:
Ultras are used a bit in ZvP

It's funny I was watching nal_ra's old boy last year and noticed that all the zergs shown playing lategame ZvP still went mass ultra-ling. But I feel like sometime shortly after (sometime in 2010) that ultras have generally gone way out of style in late-game ZvP pro meta.

Dangermousecatdog

United Kingdom7084 Posts

September 23 2020 13:21 GMT

#15

Defilers. Plague is very useful to decrease the power of a lategame protoss army. Darkswarm is useful to protect lurkers from dragoons and to kill cannons with lings, which forces the protoss to place some reavers or HT in vulnerable bases. Hive isn't something to rush for in ZvP unlike ZvT. It's more like something you get as eventually it makes sense to get hive. That said, other than defiler usage, Hive isn't important in PvZ at all nowadays. It's not as amazing as some replies are for whatever reasons are hyping it up to be.

"Hive tech" by itself doesn't make much sense to talk about. Probably a tastosis hangover from SC2 where Hive tech=Vipers and where both other hive units are powerful and useful units no matter the matchup.

TaardadAiel

Bulgaria750 Posts

September 23 2020 16:03 GMT

#16

It changes the economy of ZvP a lot. You get significantly more bang for your buck with Hive through adrenal glands and defiler spells. You can literally level a base with 8 supply worth of units if there is no aoe defense and P is out of position.

XenOsky

Chile2284 Posts

September 24 2020 04:56 GMT

#17

On September 23 2020 00:43 CadenZie wrote:
going hive in 2020? crazy talk, every game is just defend vs the 8gate and out-grow with shshsh

this

atrox_

United Kingdom1711 Posts

September 24 2020 07:27 GMT

#18

On September 22 2020 21:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
You could watch some jaedong replays, particularly the ones from that prorep pack from 2009, he spams fast hive vs protoss and gets in 12min45sec adrenal with 1/2 upgrade with 4 bases while protoss still has zero armor which is insane and require massive apm and good defense. You can find this BO in its most abusive way with those 2 famous reps of jaedong vs bisu on circuit-breaker where he doesn't even bother making lurker before taking fourth while going hive tech (do not try this at home). This gameplay will get you to late game with an advantage in upgrade. It is in no way better or worse than a "standard" gameplay, it's just a different style.

To summarize, the main advantage (from my perspective) of hive tech is crackling + defiler while upgrading armor first instead of attack. Expect very long games.

I don't suppose you know where one could find a download link for that?

iFU.pauline

France1655 Posts

September 24 2020 14:56 GMT

#19

On September 24 2020 16:27 atrox_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't suppose you know where one could find a download link for that?

https://www.mediafire.com/file/rk5jcjdj1nigsz5/Jaedong_OZ.rar/file

from that thread

https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/310883-replays

AttackZerg

United States7465 Posts

September 24 2020 16:10 GMT

#20

I highly recommend the games vs Rain.

It was back when he was 'fake rain' because of intotherain but in the games in the pack, you can see some of the differences between him and those other protoss. He makes unique choices.

Also, watching toss go straight +3 attack with no armor upgrade and get wrecked is a part of the game that has changed a lot. Your armies will not live as long as Jaedongs, because your opponents will all get armor. So everything from dt and temps to zlots and goons have more staying power early and are harder to snipe earlier. I have been rewatching them this week. Enjoy.