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On March 11 2021 01:05 towncrier wrote:
Hi, I love BGH. But if it's meant to be competitive, is there any chance you can use a balanced version of the map where terran can't drop tanks behind the minerals?
So far in my games, I've had winners leave to ensure they get easy games and tanks dropped behind me. These leavers should be banned, and there's absolutely no point in having any competitive ladder when terran can do this. Every time, I even have drop ships myself, and there's no space at all to drop a zealot to save myself.
I'll stay clear of a ranking system and just play casually until these changes.
This has been discussed ad nauseam in the thread and the author has said those changes won't be made.
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The tank drop behind minerals isnt hard to defend against really. Yes you need to be aware of it sure but after that its not even a thing anymore.
Plenty more imbalances of the BGH map this is just one of em. If you fix one you should fix all and thats pretty impossible when you think of how the map is built. Then you would end up with a fastest map and that noone would like xD.
Edit: The imbalances is what makes the map worth playing IMO.
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I havent read all these comments but any test of 4v4?
Run a 4v4 for a month and see if there are players for it (which there is imo). It seems silly leaving 2 spots open for expands for no reason.
And as plenty of people have said quite a lot i imagine. Put TR16 as "normal" and let us control lag via latency changer. The game is unplayable on TR8 anyhow which Dynamic mostly leads to. Then its better to leave and try a new game and hope the laggers dont join again.
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On March 11 2021 02:36 Jealous wrote:
This has been discussed ad nauseam in the thread and the author has said those changes won't be made.
Must be a terran player I guess! Aren't they already the best race on this map once we get past the early game where zealots dominate? Bit silly to give the best race an auto-win move that can't be countered. Could we at least make the platforms big enough so we can drop up there too? Then there would be counter play. I guess I'm barking up the wrong tree.
Defending it is literally impossible if someone really wants to get up there, think about drops on fastest maps - the only real counter is having a group of valks or corsairs patrolling. Unless you quit trying to win and just focus on defending that platform, taking your units away from the end of your choke so you can't help allied attacks etc.
Only way I can think of actually defending it is putting a couple of zealots up there so they can't drop in the first place, which would put me incredibly far behind doing that every game a terran is in the house.
And the people who win leaving to just get easy comp stomp style games??? Not going to be banned?
Ah well! Great idea, well excuted, but not very well thought out.
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Last game does not appear in my statistics: 10.03.2021 18:09
Is there a way to add the result?
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On March 11 2021 04:24 towncrier wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 02:36 Jealous wrote:
This has been discussed ad nauseam in the thread and the author has said those changes won't be made. Must be a terran player I guess! Aren't they already the best race on this map once we get past the early game where zealots dominate? Bit silly to give the best race an auto-win move that can't be countered. Could we at least make the platforms big enough so we can drop up there too? Then there would be counter play. I guess I'm barking up the wrong tree. Defending it is literally impossible if someone really wants to get up there, think about drops on fastest maps - the only real counter is having a group of valks or corsairs patrolling. Unless you quit trying to win and just focus on defending that platform, taking your units away from the end of your choke so you can't help allied attacks etc. Only way I can think of actually defending it is putting a couple of zealots up there so they can't drop in the first place, which would put me incredibly far behind doing that every game a terran is in the house. And the people who win leaving to just get easy comp stomp style games??? Not going to be banned? Ah well! Great idea, well excuted, but not very well thought out.
1. Is your argument really that it is impossible to stop Tank drops? Are you daft?
2. When a different version of BGH was used, everyone complained. The vast majority of pub games are on regular unedited BGH. It is clearly the most popular version. You and whiners like you are in the minority.
3. As explained by the poster above, the map is intrinsically imbalanced to begin with in many other ways. People still enjoy playing it. Stop crying! Although I guess it is to be expected given your username.
4. I strongly suspect that it would be more productive for your winrate and game quality if you were to get better at the game and stop complaining on forums about a free service and the decisions that went into it that you didn't bother to read about in this thread before spewing your asinine complaints. Noobs always cry about some fundamental aspect of the game when the answer is almost always git gud. There is a reason Terran isn't picked by everyone who plays and Terran doesn't have a disproportionately high winrate.
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On March 11 2021 05:36 Jealous wrote:
Stop crying! Although I guess it is to be expected given your username.
You got it, I have one job  I just knew what I was making acc for that's all.
Yeah, i'll keep playing it where there's no rank involved, where terrans don't prioritise tanks on the high ground because they're generally looking for a good fun game there.
I dunno man, I go cripple a terran then they just stick a couple of tanks up there while we both have low units... He gets to rebuild, I just die with no counter play. Whole thing is pretty lame, and you know every terrans got this on their #1 to do list since there's some ladder points to gain.
Edit: perhaps it's a little bit like when Brood War first came out, and I stuck to the normal game because I thought invisible units were pretty lame. I do quite possibly just need some minor adjustments.
Still bullshit though, shouldn't be a thing !
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On March 11 2021 07:01 towncrier wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 05:36 Jealous wrote:
Stop crying! Although I guess it is to be expected given your username. You got it, I have one job I just knew what I was making acc for that's all. Yeah, i'll keep playing it where there's no rank involved, where terrans don't prioritise tanks on the high ground because they're generally looking for a good fun game there. I dunno man, I go cripple a terran then they just stick a couple of tanks up there while we both have low units... He gets to rebuild, I just die with no counter play. Whole thing is pretty lame, and you know every terrans got this on their #1 to do list since there's some ladder points to gain. Edit: perhaps it's a little bit like when Brood War first came out, and I stuck to the normal game because I thought invisible units were pretty lame. I do quite possibly just need some minor adjustments. Still bullshit though, shouldn't be a thing !
I appreciate your self-awareness so I will address it a bit more productively myself.
1. The easy answer to Tank drops is recognizing that they may be in play. There are a number of ways to prevent them once you are aware of the possibility, so I won't go over all of them, but static defense in the mineral line (which is good against other things too, like Mutalisks or Vultures or DTs, depending on race) is an option, so is running workers to an ally, having an ally go air (Mutas can be out in time for Tank drop or relatively close to it), running workers away, mineral hopping workers, etc. It should be noted that none of these responses need to exist in a vacuum.
2. Going Fac Port is a big investment that sacrifices two potentially valuable options from Terran: bio and Vultures with mines. It's not out of some sense of generosity that Terrans don't go for drops, that is a horribly naive take. It's because other approaches are more consistently favorable. Bio and Vultures+mines are both more productive when not beating up on people who don't know how to handle drops, and that is why they are the most common build options on BGH. Mines control map space with the sacrifice of a slower roll out, M&M are very versatile with the weakness being that they don't scale well against teams who have more than one P and/or T without a rush IMO. This is why people who open bio usually transition into mech if there aren't 2 Zergs or if P/T isn't heavily hurt/eliminated.
TLDR: Siege drop isn't even the best thing that Terran has in its arsenal on BGH, has a higher level of risk vs. reward, and relies on the recipient being underprepared for it and not having scouted it. I can count the amount of times I straight up lost to Tank drop on BGH on one hand over the past 10 years, over hundreds of games played.
EDIT: Just to clarify, the reason why you would know it could be Tank drop is scouting and/or the absence of either of the two more prevalent options. If you know a Terran is sitting, has no bio or vults, AND hasn't been pressured at the front but is not moving out - gee, I wonder what he is potentially doing? *tap finger to head meme*
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On March 11 2021 08:19 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 07:01 towncrier wrote:On March 11 2021 05:36 Jealous wrote:
Stop crying! Although I guess it is to be expected given your username. You got it, I have one job I just knew what I was making acc for that's all. Yeah, i'll keep playing it where there's no rank involved, where terrans don't prioritise tanks on the high ground because they're generally looking for a good fun game there. I dunno man, I go cripple a terran then they just stick a couple of tanks up there while we both have low units... He gets to rebuild, I just die with no counter play. Whole thing is pretty lame, and you know every terrans got this on their #1 to do list since there's some ladder points to gain. Edit: perhaps it's a little bit like when Brood War first came out, and I stuck to the normal game because I thought invisible units were pretty lame. I do quite possibly just need some minor adjustments. Still bullshit though, shouldn't be a thing ! I appreciate your self-awareness so I will address it a bit more productively myself. 1. The easy answer to Tank drops is recognizing that they may be in play. There are a number of ways to prevent them once you are aware of the possibility, so I won't go over all of them, but static defense in the mineral line (which is good against other things too, like Mutalisks or Vultures or DTs, depending on race) is an option, so is running workers to an ally, having an ally go air (Mutas can be out in time for Tank drop or relatively close to it), running workers away, mineral hopping workers, etc. It should be noted that none of these responses need to exist in a vacuum. 2. Going Fac Port is a big investment that sacrifices two potentially valuable options from Terran: bio and Vultures with mines. It's not out of some sense of generosity that Terrans don't go for drops, that is a horribly naive take. It's because other approaches are more consistently favorable. Bio and Vultures+mines are both more productive when not beating up on people who don't know how to handle drops, and that is why they are the most common build options on BGH. Mines control map space with the sacrifice of a slower roll out, M&M are very versatile with the weakness being that they don't scale well against teams who have more than one P and/or T without a rush IMO. This is why people who open bio usually transition into mech if there aren't 2 Zergs or if P/T isn't heavily hurt/eliminated. TLDR: Siege drop isn't even the best thing that Terran has in its arsenal on BGH, has a higher level of risk vs. reward, and relies on the recipient being underprepared for it and not having scouted it. I can count the amount of times I straight up lost to Tank drop on BGH on one hand over the past 10 years, over hundreds of games played. EDIT: Just to clarify, the reason why you would know it could be Tank drop is scouting and/or the absence of either of the two more prevalent options. If you know a Terran is sitting, has no bio or vults, AND hasn't been pressured at the front but is not moving out - gee, I wonder what he is potentially doing? *tap finger to head meme*
Thanks! I might get some coaching to point me in the right direction towards knowing what I'm doing. It's all instinct and build orders here. I don't even use control groups or camera hotkeys, I'm not bad at all as bgh is concerned though, must have 10,000 bgh games under my belt.
Sincerely,
Brainless protoss player
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On March 11 2021 10:09 towncrier wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 08:19 Jealous wrote:On March 11 2021 07:01 towncrier wrote:On March 11 2021 05:36 Jealous wrote:
Stop crying! Although I guess it is to be expected given your username. You got it, I have one job I just knew what I was making acc for that's all. Yeah, i'll keep playing it where there's no rank involved, where terrans don't prioritise tanks on the high ground because they're generally looking for a good fun game there. I dunno man, I go cripple a terran then they just stick a couple of tanks up there while we both have low units... He gets to rebuild, I just die with no counter play. Whole thing is pretty lame, and you know every terrans got this on their #1 to do list since there's some ladder points to gain. Edit: perhaps it's a little bit like when Brood War first came out, and I stuck to the normal game because I thought invisible units were pretty lame. I do quite possibly just need some minor adjustments. Still bullshit though, shouldn't be a thing ! I appreciate your self-awareness so I will address it a bit more productively myself. 1. The easy answer to Tank drops is recognizing that they may be in play. There are a number of ways to prevent them once you are aware of the possibility, so I won't go over all of them, but static defense in the mineral line (which is good against other things too, like Mutalisks or Vultures or DTs, depending on race) is an option, so is running workers to an ally, having an ally go air (Mutas can be out in time for Tank drop or relatively close to it), running workers away, mineral hopping workers, etc. It should be noted that none of these responses need to exist in a vacuum. 2. Going Fac Port is a big investment that sacrifices two potentially valuable options from Terran: bio and Vultures with mines. It's not out of some sense of generosity that Terrans don't go for drops, that is a horribly naive take. It's because other approaches are more consistently favorable. Bio and Vultures+mines are both more productive when not beating up on people who don't know how to handle drops, and that is why they are the most common build options on BGH. Mines control map space with the sacrifice of a slower roll out, M&M are very versatile with the weakness being that they don't scale well against teams who have more than one P and/or T without a rush IMO. This is why people who open bio usually transition into mech if there aren't 2 Zergs or if P/T isn't heavily hurt/eliminated. TLDR: Siege drop isn't even the best thing that Terran has in its arsenal on BGH, has a higher level of risk vs. reward, and relies on the recipient being underprepared for it and not having scouted it. I can count the amount of times I straight up lost to Tank drop on BGH on one hand over the past 10 years, over hundreds of games played. EDIT: Just to clarify, the reason why you would know it could be Tank drop is scouting and/or the absence of either of the two more prevalent options. If you know a Terran is sitting, has no bio or vults, AND hasn't been pressured at the front but is not moving out - gee, I wonder what he is potentially doing? *tap finger to head meme* Thanks! I might get some coaching to point me in the right direction towards knowing what I'm doing. It's all instinct and build orders here. I don't even use control groups or camera hotkeys, I'm not bad at all as bgh is concerned though, must have 10,000 bgh games under my belt. Sincerely, Brainless protoss player
> no hotkeys
> 10,000 games played
😩
I think we have located part of the problem, sir.
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I use hotkeys, and I used to use control groups but the fact I can put everyone in 1 group on sc2 kinda ruined that habit...
Camera hotkeys are the one I can't seem to get myself used to.
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No question that I could be a few thousand times better at the game. But I am getting fully owned by people I'm outscaling by 2-3x from the tank drop bullshit.
EDIT: As I said, I usually even have a dropship at the ready... this isn't a tank drop rush that's occuring or anything that would leave them short on other stuff. This is just taking advantage of the fact I can't attack that bit of ground once they are there.
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On March 11 2021 11:26 Jealous wrote:
It takes time and practice, like everything else in the game
Honestly, I put that energy into things that earn me money professionally, I really have no desire to get better at starcraft, I play it to relax and have fun. As long as I play well, any outcome is good for me.
But with no real counter play to the tank drop, and having no intention of getting 10-50x better than the tank dropper just to counter it.
Everything else, when it happens, I can respond... The tank drop? When it happens, you're just dead.
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On March 11 2021 12:05 towncrier wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 11:26 Jealous wrote:
It takes time and practice, like everything else in the game Honestly, I put that energy into things that earn me money professionally, I really have no desire to get better at starcraft, I play it to relax and have fun. As long as I play well, any outcome is good for me. But with no real counter play to the tank drop, and having no intention of getting 10-50x better than the tank dropper just to counter it. Everything else, when it happens, I can respond... The tank drop? When it happens, you're just dead.
I already addressed this but you have to be no % better than the Tank dropper to counter it. You're applying what I said about camera lock keys to a prior discussion incorrectly. Just one or two Cannons with a good mineral hop can stall a Tank drop. Just a few Dragoons with a Probe transfer. Etc. You're saying that you applied pressure to the T and they still dropped you, well that sounds like you went for 3GZ with no plan of following up whatsoever. Ofc Terran will have a wall up and tech behind it when you do that, that's a no-brainer. No one is asking you to become a progamer overnight, just recognize that your complaints are wholly based on your lack of investment and subjective mindset in the game and deal with it... Maybe you should try Tank dropping a few times and see how people beat it it? That could be a good exercise for you.
If you keep arguing about how you are casual and thus can't deal with basic strats like this that have been around for 20 years, maybe it is not the fault of the ladder system but you as a player? Just a thought.
On top of that, your argument is basically "I go X, they go Y, but I can't beat Y with X" ok great, how about trying Z or A or ♤ or whatever? Who is forcing you to lock into a strat that loses to Siege drop, or who is telling you to go Valkyries (lol?)... no one. The way you are playing the game is your choice, but don't cry when it doesn't work against raw most primitive of shit-testers.
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@towncrier do you have any replays to share of the matter?
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Did just play a game on "20 wins" server with player 'zerNoob' which has 2-3 custom stats. Hm?
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Hey there, I think that has been advocated before, but it would be nice to see at least some of the bots not host on DTR turn rate as many games are unejoyable due to this.
TR12 low should be possible with any odd combo of connections and still yields a much better play than TR8 which is where DTR tends to end up most of the time.
I'd ask at least TR16, TR14 and TR12 be tested out if possible.
Many thanks!
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On March 10 2021 23:59 plaetschernderbach wrote:Dear Sir D3AD-R3TARD I have to say your project is amazing. The games are overall much much more enjoyable then just random 3v3 games with some random teammates! This is a huge improvement!! I just want to thank you for this effort. I'm sure you put a lot of time in this. But Sir D3AD-R3TARD, where can I donate? I've searched your website and did not found a donation button/address. Please give me the opportunity to support you. It is very important for me (and I think for the community too), that your work will last forever and improves even more in the future Sincerely
a random player who loves to play some balanced random team games after a hard working day
Thanks for kind words.
On March 11 2021 01:05 towncrier wrote:
Hi, I love BGH. But if it's meant to be competitive, is there any chance you can use a balanced version of the map where terran can't drop tanks behind the minerals?
So far in my games, I've had winners leave to ensure they get easy games and tanks dropped behind me. These leavers should be banned, and there's absolutely no point in having any competitive ladder when terran can do this. Every time, I even have drop ships myself, and there's no space at all to drop a zealot to save myself.
I'll stay clear of a ranking system and just play casually until these changes.
I've tried a BGH version where cliff drops were impossible, but players bashed me for changing it. Likewise, I also find this strategy kinda stupid, but people played this map for 20 years, and they don't want any changes.
On March 11 2021 03:20 MeSaber wrote:
I havent read all these comments but any test of 4v4?
Run a 4v4 for a month and see if there are players for it (which there is imo). It seems silly leaving 2 spots open for expands for no reason.
And as plenty of people have said quite a lot i imagine. Put TR16 as "normal" and let us control lag via latency changer. The game is unplayable on TR8 anyhow which Dynamic mostly leads to. Then its better to leave and try a new game and hope the laggers dont join again.
People would play 4v4, but I really don't see a way to balance it. I think it's just too unpredictable.
As for all the turn rate comments. I've tried TR12 and it was laggy. There were more games that ended in the beginning because of lag. DTR should find the best rate possible. I know it not always works like that, but I can't fix errors made by Blizzard.
On March 11 2021 04:56 Rosettenzerrung wrote:
Last game does not appear in my statistics: 10.03.2021 18:09
Is there a way to add the result?
I've tried to figure out what happened with that game and for some reason bot didn't save all the players MMR's before the game, and thus it wasn't counted. I'll think about a way to add this, but I can't guarantee anything. Thanks for the report, that's a new bug I wasn't aware of.
On March 13 2021 00:04 MeSaber wrote:
Did just play a game on "20 wins" server with player 'zerNoob' which has 2-3 custom stats. Hm?
20 wins minimum is for new players. Players that are already ranked like zerNoob can always join those games.
Going back to balance discussion. I've thought about this and the thing I find to be the most problematic in 3v3 BGH is when opposite players are on positions 11 and 12. Very often this element creates the game outcome regardless of what other players do. The reason is that those positions are so close that there is little time to react from other players. If I were to make 1 change to the original map I would make it, so only one player can spawn in 11 and 12 positions. But again that's one of the random element of BGH that old players like, so I guess I won't be changing this either.
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I think it is a fun element of the game, because it forces action very quickly and opens the door to off-beat strats like contains and walling the mutual choke. I consider it a feature, even if it is annoying sometimes when your ally gets contained and can't help you  But it has also led to some miraculous holds and comebacks.
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EPT
