Quite often in ZvT games(with pro-gamers: larva, Soma, SK etc.) I see the following.
Zerg player attacking the 2nd or 3rd expansion of the Terran with a large number of troops does not completely kill CC. Leaving him about 600 + / - life points.
Why they can 't I take 1 Queen (which is worth like 1 mutalisk) and infect CC at the end ?
Leaving CC to a Terran you leave it expandable, infecting CC you deprive the Terran of expandable.
Or am I wrong? If it was that easy, Zerg players would probably do it, they're not stupid))
Zerg do infest CC, not so often but they actually do. Now 100 gas is very expansive when you are mining on 3 gas and you don't just make queen hopping you will infest a CC. So you will never see this during middle game. On top of that you almost always have to sacrifice some units in order to do that. By the time you have 4 bases you are usually way too busy to bother elaborating that kind of strategy and finally, infesting CC has never been a game changer.
On March 22 2020 18:10 Bonyth wrote: zergs use their instincts rather than brains, so u may be right )
that pretty much sums it up
On March 22 2020 18:57 iFU.pauline wrote: Zerg do infest CC, not so often but they actually do. Now 100 gas is very expansive when you are mining on 3 gas and you don't just make queen hopping you will infest a CC. So you will never see this during middle game. On top of that you almost always have to sacrifice some units in order to do that. By the time you have 4 bases you are usually way too busy to bother elaborating that kind of strategy and finally, infesting CC has never been a game changer.
for the latter, you may want to consult with Savior and his late zvt/tvz games
Sometimes Zergs don't even infest the CC even if a queen is on the map nearby. Most pro Zergs seem to forget it has that ability. There is no special reason why they don't do it. APM-wise, the effort is negligible.
On March 22 2020 21:09 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Sometimes Zergs don't even infest the CC even if a queen is on the map nearby. Most pro Zergs seem to forget it has that ability. There is no special reason why they don't do it. APM-wise, the effort is negligible.
Exactly, no effort at all in fact! If the CC is damaged the queen will infest it even if you don't right click it. Just she has to be around and that's it !
On March 22 2020 21:09 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Sometimes Zergs don't even infest the CC even if a queen is on the map nearby. Most pro Zergs seem to forget it has that ability. There is no special reason why they don't do it. APM-wise, the effort is negligible.
Exactly, no effort at all in fact! If the CC is damaged the queen will infest it even if you don't right click it. Just she has to be around and that's it !
And you think Terran can't see it coming and respond appropriately? Then why don’t we see it at every single game? As if we waited for someone to enlighten us in 2020 that you can infest a CC with a queen so easily and that zerg are brain-damaged not to take advantage of it. That is not that reliable, if zerg would suddenly make it their favourite strategy you would never see again a Terran leaving a CC with low hp and that ends here. Sure on rare occasion it can be cool but we usually do it on the moment because the context allows it with a low risk factor.
On March 22 2020 22:24 LaStScan wrote: No. It's just Koreans tacit agreement. Not a good mannered to take CC.
Wait, is this serious? That's such an awful reason not to do it, infested ccs are cool as hell!
actually i think this is the main reason why you dont see infested cc often, players inherently seeing it as a BM funny move with no gameplay motive, like making manner buildings in opponent base when you are winning.
they never consider the possibility that in certain niche scenarios that arises where you have the opportunity to deliveer heavy pressure on a terran base its very effective way to take out a damaged cc quickly which might have otherwise escaped to safety due to the later impending reinforcements. in build orders where you get a queen nest anyway its only a 100/100 investment, 1 less muta yay. from a cost benefit analysis there is no reason not to build at least 1 queen in preparation for such a situation.
There are several reasons for this: you cannot plan on attacking the base and getting the HP low enough every single time. It really depends on the game flow. Overcommitting just for the CC steal with a queen can lose you games: you may lose all your units, and the T just counter repairs if he sees the queen. And then you also need to make sure your queen is in range of the CC, while also not being in range of oncoming units or turrets. So you actually need to put much needed APM into managing your queen. And if it were a common theme, the Terran would just use 1 irradiate for the 1 queen the Zergs make for infesting CCs.
I feel like usually if you are at this point in the game as a Zerg, you have already won the game, although a sneak attack focusing a Terrans 3rd with a Queen would be cool too.
EDIT : I never knew about this Scan, that's an interesting statement...
Infested terrans are pretty vulnerable. They die really easy, are difficult to control in a typical late game Z composition, and the work required to get them is pretty tedious.
That being said, I have grandiose images of loading an overlord with them and using them as bombs, dropping them in the T mineral lines or MnM ball :D
Isn't ensnare good vs stimmed marines also? This could be a win win. Just throw in a single queen in your control group of mutas and laugh at the struggle of those adrenaline junkies
Might be a decent idea with a small muta flock in the later stages of the game. One of the major problems with late game Zerg is the inability to deal with CCs just floating and surviving (because lings/lurkers/ultras don't attack up), and usually the handful of mutas I have just don't seem to kill the CC fast enough to even matter. Having one queen in the group might make a difference (though it would be really hard to remember this in the midst of doing so many other important things).
On March 23 2020 20:20 Uldridge wrote: Isn't ensnare good vs stimmed marines also? This could be a win win. Just throw in a single queen in your control group of mutas and laugh at the struggle of those adrenaline junkies
Of course it is a very good idea
One of the best attacks in the history of Broodwar !
On March 23 2020 20:20 Uldridge wrote: Isn't ensnare good vs stimmed marines also? This could be a win win. Just throw in a single queen in your control group of mutas and laugh at the struggle of those adrenaline junkies
On March 23 2020 20:20 Uldridge wrote: Isn't ensnare good vs stimmed marines also? This could be a win win. Just throw in a single queen in your control group of mutas and laugh at the struggle of those adrenaline junkies
you can see the fruits of having a queen with your muta army at Zzzero channel right now: https://www.twitch.tv/zzzeropl good job enlightening zergs :D
On March 24 2020 04:21 Bonyth wrote: you can see the fruits of having a queen with your muta army at Zzzero channel right now: https://www.twitch.tv/zzzeropl good job enlightening zergs :D
My first thought on seeing his move was "he must've seen the TL.net thread" :D
On March 23 2020 12:40 Juanita wrote: Infested Terran's are useless. It takes a lot of gas to get them for little reward...
Zero wants a talk with you. 100/50 is actually fairly cheap and only 1 supply is nice. You trade for one goon and you already have your money's worth right there. They're funky to use though since you should actually be targetting on the ground to explode them rathe than target on units where they might collide and not do anything before dying. If only they changed it so that when they died they would explode like banelings in sc2 I think they'd be used way more.
On March 24 2020 04:21 Bonyth wrote: you can see the fruits of having a queen with your muta army at Zzzero channel right now: https://www.twitch.tv/zzzeropl good job enlightening zergs :D
My first thought on seeing his move was "he must've seen the TL.net thread" :D
On March 23 2020 12:40 Juanita wrote: Infested Terran's are useless. It takes a lot of gas to get them for little reward...
Zero wants a talk with you. 100/50 is actually fairly cheap and only 1 supply is nice. You trade for one goon and you already have your money's worth right there. They're funky to use though since you should actually be targetting on the ground to explode them rathe than target on units where they might collide and not do anything before dying. If only they changed it so that when they died they would explode like banelings in sc2 I think they'd be used way more.
not sure if a ZvP is a great argument for the use of infested terrans since it's fully dependent on the map having a neutral CC
IMO the only real use of infested terrans in a ZvT is with drop play. I imagine it only takes a few of them to kill a CC and a worker line. Otherwise they die too fast in a real battle. Even if you try doing moves with burrow/unburrow, the unit AI is too slow to finish the attack before dying. Although under dark swarm that could be a different story but zerglings work just fine in that scenario...
But I have definitely wondered too why zergs don't get 1 or 2 queens, just to insta-kill a moderately damaged CC. Seems like a pretty big reward for a relatively small cost.
how do you infest c.c when game is 50/50.... if you can infest c.c, then you can just bust the c.c with hydras or mutas. Terran doesnt wait for 5 seconds so they can be infested. maybe you can do that in the beg of the game if skill level difference is huge
On March 24 2020 17:25 cRoSsy wrote: how do you infest c.c when game is 50/50.... if you can infest c.c, then you can just bust the c.c with hydras or mutas. Terran doesnt wait for 5 seconds so they can be infested. maybe you can do that in the beg of the game if skill level difference is huge
Its more for lategame when you're breaking expansions, I've seen a lot of games where zerg will barely not kill a CC and have to retreat, but in that time they could've infested the CC and Terran wouldn't have been able to repair it.
On March 23 2020 20:20 Uldridge wrote: Isn't ensnare good vs stimmed marines also? This could be a win win. Just throw in a single queen in your control group of mutas and laugh at the struggle of those adrenaline junkies
On March 24 2020 17:25 cRoSsy wrote: how do you infest c.c when game is 50/50.... if you can infest c.c, then you can just bust the c.c with hydras or mutas. Terran doesnt wait for 5 seconds so they can be infested. maybe you can do that in the beg of the game if skill level difference is huge
Its more for lategame when you're breaking expansions, I've seen a lot of games where zerg will barely not kill a CC and have to retreat, but in that time they could've infested the CC and Terran wouldn't have been able to repair it.
I dont know the situation you saw but i also often had to make decisions to force fire c.c to bust or infect or just fight with other units. If i have to force fire c.c with my hydras while my 1 group of hydras melt, i will just retreat. If i am so ahead that i can lose 2 groups of hydras by tanks, i will happily donate my hydras to infect c.c
On March 24 2020 04:21 Bonyth wrote: you can see the fruits of having a queen with your muta army at Zzzero channel right now: https://www.twitch.tv/zzzeropl good job enlightening zergs :D
My first thought on seeing his move was "he must've seen the TL.net thread" :D
On March 24 2020 22:22 Bonyth wrote: Sometimes ull attack with cracklings and defiler (late game) and very often terrans lift cc after it has taken some damage.
Late games in a situation like you just demonstrated, zerg would infect c.c. But zerg doesnt bring queen to every harrass or attack since zerg doesnt expect to bust each base all the time, and that case queens will die by irradiate or gols. each queens is 100-100. Also, depends on the circumstances, but zerg tries to hide queens as long as they can. In late games, when i took 2 groups of queens to broodling and queens are there when c.c are damaged, i will defo infect c.c. However, i wouldnt take queens to every attempt of attack in order to infect c.c. Mech terrans lack of gas, not minerals.
I've been asking this question (or rather, thinking zergs are collectively idiots) for a good 18 years now.
Real cool to finally see some queen use outside broodling from progamers though.
I used to stop attacking ccs when they got below 750 (if I didn't think I could fully kill it) because if it went below 500 and started burning, it would be more likely that terran would repair it. And I've won more than a handful of games through flying in a queen a minute after a battle ended and infesting the still not repaired cc. Seeing less of that these days though - terrans are getting better at anticipating the potential queen.
On March 23 2020 12:40 Juanita wrote: Infested Terran's are useless. It takes a lot of gas to get them for little reward...
IMO the only real use of infested terrans in a ZvT is with drop play. I imagine it only takes a few of them to kill a CC and a worker line. Otherwise they die too fast in a real battle.
But I have definitely wondered too why zergs don't get 1 or 2 queens, just to insta-kill a moderately damaged CC. Seems like a pretty big reward for a relatively small cost.
I have the same idea. Remember in the campaign, the Overmind considers Terrans an assimilated race. How would the Zerg Queen infest CC work in a pro game? If you can infest an expansion, the whole late game changes. You won't have to develop a Hive. I know ZvT is more defensive play until Ultralisks, but that is for frontal attacks which the Zerg never has to. The whole rock paper scissors concept of the game is to attack where the enemy is not defending. What if you never expected the game to reach late game? That would be a very characteristic Zerg rush.
another issue is that theres not any room in most hotkey setups to add a single queen in. also in most situations you target the cc last because terrans usually fighting your stuff to defend a base. You usually only target a cc after the fight is already won in that base, at which point you will kill the cc anyway. killing units takes priority over a high health structures to kill.
On January 05 2024 18:51 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: another issue is that theres not any room in most hotkey setups to add a single queen in. also in most situations you target the cc last because terrans usually fighting your stuff to defend a base. You usually only target a cc after the fight is already won in that base, at which point you will kill the cc anyway. killing units takes priority over a high health structures to kill.
well idk if you'd really need to hotkey it necessarily, just fly it near the expansion you anticipate attacking to infest. I agree with you though that infesting seems more like a win-more rather than a legitimate strategy. As you say, the CC is gonna likely die anyways if you manage to get an infest off, is it worth the supply and money to build the queen? Though I think parasite is an underused spell and the queen can go around parasiting vessels, so it can generate use in other ways.
Queens are super useful in many scenarios, but they do need a dedicated hotkey. This is honestly one of the best reasons not to build them and one of the reasons why people have a hard time incorporating them. If you only factor in the resource cost then a queen will always be worth it in virtually every hive game, but without a dedicated hotkey itll require too much attention to have them well positioned and it's fair to argue that a hatchery or scourge or mutas might be more useful.
I think current TvZ meta involves M&M and Queens are not hard counters to M&M like Defilers and Ultralisks, that is why. Do we have to get those? Defiler tech tree is 293 seconds, Ultralisks are 280, Queens are just 243... From Lair up and Queen's Nest in place, the first Queen is hatched 31 seconds before Hive, 100 seconds before the first Defiler, 132 seconds before Consume. That is 159 mana on the first Queens by the time Defiler Consume is ready. If we weren't going after Defilers, Hive plus Defiler Mound plus Defiler and Consume, that would be 500 gas saved. We could have 5 Queens by then... You could cast Ensnare just 11 seconds after Ensnare is done which by the way is 1 second before Hive. Which would be stronger - non stop Mutalisk harrass mid game, or current muta switch to Defilers late game? All I'm asking is take those CC's down...
Ensare means marines can still shoot and kill things though. Defilers literally puts up a no-Terran zone for the duration of the swarm. Also defilers can get energy instantly, while Terran could bait ensnare then go back in when Queens are low on energy.
Zero has done ensnare strategies in Kespa (Andromeda game iirc) where he plays more of a battler zerg style and contests Terran's mid game map control with queens and mass crackling.
On January 06 2024 04:28 FlaShFTW wrote: Ensare means marines can still shoot and kill things though. Defilers literally puts up a no-Terran zone for the duration of the swarm. Also defilers can get energy instantly, while Terran could bait ensnare then go back in when Queens are low on energy.
Zero has done ensnare strategies in Kespa (Andromeda game iirc) where he plays more of a battler zerg style and contests Terran's mid game map control with queens and mass crackling.
Yes, Defilers are defensive while Queens are purely aggressive units. However if Zerg defends with Defilers, it is only by the grace of Terrans. Defilers take 296 seconds to make the first one, 327.6 seconds from Spawning Pool to Consume. Science Vessels are done just in 232.7 seconds, 95 seconds before. During that time, a Queen would have 75 mana to cast Ensnare 225.5 seconds after the start of the Spawning Pool. That is my point.
On January 06 2024 04:28 FlaShFTW wrote: Ensare means marines can still shoot and kill things though. Defilers literally puts up a no-Terran zone for the duration of the swarm. Also defilers can get energy instantly, while Terran could bait ensnare then go back in when Queens are low on energy.
Zero has done ensnare strategies in Kespa (Andromeda game iirc) where he plays more of a battler zerg style and contests Terran's mid game map control with queens and mass crackling.
Yeah, if Zerg can contest Terran in the field, then ensnare is compelling as a force multiplier. Queens are also much more mobile than defilers. Crazy Zerg + Ensnare sounds feasible.
As a noob, I actively want to infest BigFans CC's every game but I am still facing difficulties trying to control everything so I usually priorities other things. Luckily for him hahah
EPT
