• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:23
CET 06:23
KST 14:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival8TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9
Community News
Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest1Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou21Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four3BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET10Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO8
StarCraft 2
General
RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou The New Patch Killed Mech! Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)
Tourneys
Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle RSL Season 3 Qualifier Links and Dates $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival Is there anyway to get a private coach? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET OGN to release AI-upscaled StarLeague from Feb 24
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals ASL final tickets help Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Roaring Currents ASL final Simple Questions, Simple Answers Relatively freeroll strategies BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently... Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Benefits Of Limited Comm…
TrAiDoS
Sabrina was soooo lame on S…
Peanutsc
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1645 users

[Strategy] The Old Man and the Build - Page 3

Forum Index > BW General
65 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51490 Posts
December 29 2017 01:10 GMT
#41
On December 29 2017 07:35 Ethelis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2017 23:39 Letmelose wrote:
I personally think if the late-mech build was designed with the intention to nullify the strength of defilers, the 1-1-1 build was designed with the intention to nullify the strength of mutalisks.

While it indeed is a viable alternative to the standard builds, I believe Light, who used the 1-1-1 build extensively during his professional career, said that anyone using this build should be aware of the fact that they can lose to a far inferior player while using this build order due to its unstable nature.

I used to think that using this build order was an admission of defeat of sorts, that these their godawful bionic players such as iloveoov or FanTaSy (back when these two had a really hard time defeating elite zerg players in a standard manner) were relying on cheap gimmicks to overcome their handicap, but after seeing mechanically sound terran players like Light make good usage out of this build, I became less salty with its success.

This article reminded how much I used to despise iloveoov, who I thought was an abomination sent to make Brood War all about optimization and abusive build orders. The number of mediocre terran players with absolutely zero talent who got an ego after copying iloveoov's manual for success was far too high for me. It was as if the man was trolling the other two races:

"See this build order? Now all these second-rate players who couldn't outplay anyone worth a damn will now be unbearably infatuated with the idea that they are now somehow talented at the game, as if opening and copying a replay of mine makes my smart ideas theirs by default."

The most infuriating thing about iloveoov is that he even helped the advancement of protoss build orders by playing a huge role in the development of the T1 build (build order optimization in the protoss-versus-terran match-up), but basically did nothing but make life hell for the zerg player pool whilst providing absolutely no antidotes for his supremely gay build orders. By far the most frustrating player of all-time as far as I was concerned, and probably the greatest genius of the game of all-time. In an alternative timeline, it would have been interesting to see his ideas for the zerg race, as he was quite proficient with it during his amateur years.


What's the T1 PvT build? I've heard of it before but never seen the specifics.


(Wiki)21 Nexus
Commentator
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
December 29 2017 01:13 GMT
#42
On December 29 2017 07:35 Ethelis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2017 23:39 Letmelose wrote:
I personally think if the late-mech build was designed with the intention to nullify the strength of defilers, the 1-1-1 build was designed with the intention to nullify the strength of mutalisks.

While it indeed is a viable alternative to the standard builds, I believe Light, who used the 1-1-1 build extensively during his professional career, said that anyone using this build should be aware of the fact that they can lose to a far inferior player while using this build order due to its unstable nature.

I used to think that using this build order was an admission of defeat of sorts, that these their godawful bionic players such as iloveoov or FanTaSy (back when these two had a really hard time defeating elite zerg players in a standard manner) were relying on cheap gimmicks to overcome their handicap, but after seeing mechanically sound terran players like Light make good usage out of this build, I became less salty with its success.

This article reminded how much I used to despise iloveoov, who I thought was an abomination sent to make Brood War all about optimization and abusive build orders. The number of mediocre terran players with absolutely zero talent who got an ego after copying iloveoov's manual for success was far too high for me. It was as if the man was trolling the other two races:

"See this build order? Now all these second-rate players who couldn't outplay anyone worth a damn will now be unbearably infatuated with the idea that they are now somehow talented at the game, as if opening and copying a replay of mine makes my smart ideas theirs by default."

The most infuriating thing about iloveoov is that he even helped the advancement of protoss build orders by playing a huge role in the development of the T1 build (build order optimization in the protoss-versus-terran match-up), but basically did nothing but make life hell for the zerg player pool whilst providing absolutely no antidotes for his supremely gay build orders. By far the most frustrating player of all-time as far as I was concerned, and probably the greatest genius of the game of all-time. In an alternative timeline, it would have been interesting to see his ideas for the zerg race, as he was quite proficient with it during his amateur years.


What's the T1 PvT build? I've heard of it before but never seen the specifics.


Basically taking nexus at 21 supply. It was a build that counters the FD terran build, which was quite popular back then.

While iloveoov's initial rendition was a bit different, BeSt took concepts such as skimping on units initially for upgrades and infrastructure, maximizing mineral intake by adjusting the number of probes mining gas, cutting probe production for further dragoon count for optimization against potential FD terran pushes, and delaying the robotics bay by putting more emphasis on dragoons. Below is a rough rendition of what BeSt ended up using for his 21 nexus build during his professional career.

+ Show Spoiler +
1) 8 pylon
2) 10 gate
3) 12 gas
4) 13 core
5) 15 pylon
6) 17 range
7) Mine another 50 gas and pull a probe off the vespene geyser
8) 17 dragoon
9) 21 nexus and stall probe production
10) 21 gate
11) 21 dragoon
12) 23 pylon and remake probes


Due to terran players countering this build by abusing its late robotics bay, I don't think players adjust gas mining anymore. The video below is a lecture about the subject.

+ Show Spoiler +
TL+ Member
Ethelis
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2396 Posts
December 29 2017 01:25 GMT
#43
Thanks for the explanations!
Disabled gamer - Diamond 3 (LoL) D+ Rank scrublord on BW. Bisu doesnt need DTs, He uses probes. just ask Flash.
[GiTM]-Ace
Profile Joined September 2002
United States4935 Posts
December 29 2017 02:31 GMT
#44
lol I've been thinking this is flash's build the whole time. he pretty much owns everyone with it. I've seen some people get some well timed lings or hydra and bust him though
I may not be the best player right now but I think I can beat any 'best' players. I'll beat all the best players and become the best player. Watch me. - Jju
hitthat
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland2267 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-29 09:02:59
December 29 2017 09:02 GMT
#45
Zergs are Terran's guinea pigs for inventing new methods of rape.
Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy.
BulgarianToss
Profile Joined May 2011
Bulgaria487 Posts
December 29 2017 09:11 GMT
#46
Loved this article, nicely written
music is the best thing in the world
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5221 Posts
December 29 2017 12:21 GMT
#47
Great read!
The heart's eternal vow
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
December 29 2017 12:42 GMT
#48
On December 29 2017 11:31 [GiTM]-Ace wrote:
lol I've been thinking this is flash's build the whole time. he pretty much owns everyone with it. I've seen some people get some well timed lings or hydra and bust him though


Flash could own everyone going BBS all the time. He's just mechanically perfect at the game.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
onlystar
Profile Joined March 2015
United States971 Posts
December 29 2017 12:54 GMT
#49
could anyone post some good games from ssak peforming the 1-1-1 in recent months?
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
December 29 2017 16:09 GMT
#50
On December 28 2017 10:04 zimp wrote:
Great write-up, i liked it.
I also used and liked the build a lot, but messed up the opening often.


Haha i thought of you when I read this. I remember it as the weird build that zimp did, from the few games that we played.
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
Bisu-Fan
Profile Joined January 2010
Russian Federation3336 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-29 18:47:05
December 29 2017 18:46 GMT
#51
Write-ups like this make me start watching BW again and want to play. Builds like these make me realize how hopeless I am against anyone who knows what they're doing.
The Revolutionist Shall Rise Again! No. 1 Kim Taek Yong Fan 어헣↗ GO JAEDONG!!!!!!! GO ACE!!! 태연 <3 윤아 <3 승연 <3
JungleTerrain
Profile Joined January 2012
Chile799 Posts
December 29 2017 21:08 GMT
#52
On December 30 2017 03:46 Bisu-Fan wrote:
Write-ups like this make me start watching BW again and want to play. Builds like these make me realize how hopeless I am against anyone who knows what they're doing.


Same...

Great writing, amazing article. I love how the history is explained and the why behind it all. And also enjoy seeing people’s reactions like Letmelose, etc. Haha
www.broodwarmaps.net
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-30 06:14:40
December 30 2017 06:13 GMT
#53
Thank you, that was an interesting read!

On December 28 2017 14:51 BigFan wrote:
^ That game is extremely entertaining, must watch imo!

Personally, I've always thought that 1-1-1 is one of the most fun builds to play. So many branches to choose from and we all know valks are a cool unit as well so that's a huge plus! :D


So many branches but you seem to always chose to branch into mass paper planes. Like a Bigfan

On December 28 2017 12:54 CadenZa wrote:
I thought this was the qikz build!


fucking qikz and his build. I have no idea what is going to come out of his base
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
TwiggyWan
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
France332 Posts
December 30 2017 15:19 GMT
#54
What about the two factories oov built in the example game? The article says nothing about the super high tank count that allows him to roll over zero without relying on apm intensive marine micro. Does ssak go for 2 factories too?

Besides the idea of this build is the same in SC2 with the various hellion/viking/banshee builds over the extensions, but in SC2 getting map control does not stop the zerg from getting much more drones that the terran can kill and be equal/ahead in the late game(mostly thanks to the queen lol). Is there a way for BW zerg to play like that, for example on the back of a few non upgraded hydralisks?

I cant help but notice that zero didn't rush hive either. He goes for 8 lings attack early, is forced to build the sunken(as written), goes hydralisks, upgrades hydra speed (did he upgrade range? i can't see), goes spire (why?), upgrades overlords, unlocks lurker tech, gets an evo and THEN goes for hive.
I'm not an expert but can't you counter the push by going for a fast dark swarm build?
No bad days
art_of_turtle
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States1202 Posts
December 30 2017 17:07 GMT
#55
1-1-1 Build was something I spent a long time trying to figure out and play against. The most skilled vulture and wraith micro can delay or even change a zerg build. This build is very popular for players who love setting the pace of a game, but it's flaws are usually dictated by some of the most basic of mistakes like losing your first of any unit from the vulture to the vessel. Nonetheless I will always respect it as a core strategy that is difficult to prepare against when you play so blind.
Flash should fear Sacsri
lemmata
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
468 Posts
January 01 2018 17:50 GMT
#56
JD is shocked by sSak's shenanigans.

[image loading]
[image loading]

Not sure what's going on here, but it's relevant somehow, right?
ne4aJIb
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Russian Federation3209 Posts
January 02 2018 01:34 GMT
#57
Lol
Bisu,Best,Stork,Jangbi and Flash, Fantasy, Leta, Light and Jaedong, Hydra, Zero, Soulkey assemble in ACE now!
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5221 Posts
January 02 2018 07:02 GMT
#58
Lol
The heart's eternal vow
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6720 Posts
January 02 2018 10:23 GMT
#59
ssak imba
bITt.mAN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Switzerland3693 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-03 16:58:30
January 03 2018 16:57 GMT
#60
This one is a sort of splice between Flash's 8rax and Oov's valks
BW4LYF . . . . . . PM me, I LOVE PMs. . . . . . Long live "NaDa's Body" . . . . . . Fantasy | Bisu/Best | Jaedong . . . . .
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 37m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 362
NaDa 41
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm84
League of Legends
JimRising 872
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K67
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor156
Other Games
summit1g9515
WinterStarcraft450
ViBE140
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick787
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 309
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH186
• practicex 48
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 19
• Diggity7
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt332
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
2h 37m
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4h 37m
WardiTV Invitational
6h 37m
CrankTV Team League
7h 37m
BASILISK vs Streamerzone
Team Liquid vs Shopify Rebellion
Team Vitality vs Team Falcon
BSL Team A[vengers]
9h 37m
Gypsy vs nOOB
JDConan vs Scan
RSL Revival
11h 37m
Wardi Open
1d 6h
CrankTV Team League
1d 7h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
[ Show More ]
CrankTV Team League
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
EC S1
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.