Update: Pusan agrees to stay with MBCgame for 50,000/year for one year. It has been confirmed that July has indeed asked for a waiver.
I have decided to make a "proper" (as WiP would call it) newspost about the imminent departure of Julyzerg and Pusan from MBCgame so that users do not have to dig through the threads to find the essential information.
Park Seung Jun, better known as MBC game's Julyzerg, has been put on waivers by his team. This means that all teams are free to bid for the God of War's services.
The problem arose due to July's expiring contract of approximately 140,000 USD/year. MBCgame proposed a paycut to their star zerg player, based on his poor results during the 2006 year. (As far as I can recall, he did not have any notable showings in either major league other than his 2nd place finish during 2005 Shinhan Bank Starleague)
Julyzerg was not pleased with this proposed paycut, (partially because MBCgame won the 2006 proleague grandfinals over SKT1) and thus asked the team to release him.
Although it is not determined whether SKT1 will be the team to pick him up, their deep pockets, the vacancy of Lim Yo Hwan's salary obligations, as well as their anemic zerg lineup would make the move a logical choice.
With a bevy of emerging stars on the team, MBCgame has decided that these two veterans were not worth their current salaries. Although these reports are not official, an official announcement is expected soon.
On May 07 2007 10:48 Red_Dragon wrote: More info on GG net. Here is copy paste. * all credit goes to Link.Enic
I don't know where someone heard the rumor that Pusan was leaving, but no. He's staying, and he's just finished negotiating with mbc hero. 50,000 dollar for a year.
July wanted 80,000 dollar for a year with no incentive, but MBC hero said no, they offered 65,00 dollar for a year with incentive.
After this, July officialy requested waiver. (Basically free for trade.)
This is Julys interview.
original text: fighterforum.com
You requested waiver yourself. ▶Yes. I did it myself. It makes both me and MBC game feel more comfortable, doesn't it. I hope this one works out well.
Negotiations didn't work out. Was there a difference in offering?
▶I can not understand why they're offering a lower pay when we won the proleague last season. I was very dissapointed when I heard what MBC was offering to me at first. I am a bit sad, but I don't have anything against MBC game.
I heard there were other problems besides the negotiation. ▶No. Our stance was just different.
What are your future plans? ▶I find to plan a team that needs me. I will try to see as many teams as possible. If they choose me, I'll try my best not to fail them.
I put this in the other thread, but JuNiToSs (Protoss) and Sz.1 (Zerg) from MBC are retiring (not moving to another team) because of salary issues, and that their decision to retire is probably because they are lower tier players.
Wow. I read in the other threads and thought the consensus was just that it was a mistake.
Doesnt surprise me that this is happening(And will probably happen to a lot of other players soon). All these rookies coming in and the competition heating up combined with slumping dudes is gonna slash the rates on the mid-top players.
Edit: Also I find it MILDLY amusing that they are saying they both didnt do shit, when they were two huge factors for them winning proleague;]
pusan and july should goto khan jju/july + stork/pusan + fbh would be gosu
and ilvy has a good point
On May 07 2007 02:43 Ilvy wrote: It may not be only money that July and/or Pusan would move to T1, their old manager and good friend is there, old love never dies :D
Stop fucking crying about a "real news" post. They posted what they heard about and wanted to tell the community. If you don't like it, don't read it and make your own "good" post. Dumbass. Anyways it's sad to see JulyZerg and Pusan leaving MBC. Sorta. Even though I really like SKT1. Hopefully that can bring more practice for the team and make SKT1 the best! But since boxer is in ACE now hmm...
While the idea of both of them going to SKT would be cool, I still hope this is not the start of the "dominance of money" that is present in other sports where some well payed teams just buy every rising star and their dominance becomes boring.
I know that this will not be the case now, just hope this wont start a trend..
I can say this in atleast 100 perverted ways, but I'll go with the boring one: MBC without July and Pusan is like a car without gas, not going nowhere :/ MBC Hero without the Heroes :-)
On May 07 2007 04:25 sOnagi wrote: wow...i've always seen July and Pusan as being part of MBC Hero, even in the old days of P.O.S., they were together on the same team, same coach
that sucks how they might have to move...but just because of salary conditions one has to move sucks
well Pusan was on Plus at first before going to POS
I reckon this might be a good thing for MBC, they can invest more money into new, fresh, full-of-potential players.
Remember Samsung Khan? They were the laughing stock of the community. After getting rid of the noobs like Doggi, and then getting talent like Stork and FBH, they are now a powerhouse in the proleagues.
I want them to go to eStro! Things needs to get mixed up! The last thing July and Pusan need are to go onto an old, moneyed team and stop being hungry.
On May 07 2007 04:25 sOnagi wrote: wow...i've always seen July and Pusan as being part of MBC Hero, even in the old days of P.O.S., they were together on the same team, same coach
that sucks how they might have to move...but just because of salary conditions one has to move sucks
well Pusan was on Plus at first before going to POS
POS were always a lower tier team, then PuSan joined in what was it... early 05? yes... and then the PuSan/July show began =] those were the days!! i remember in one PL match, they had pusan and july as 1v1, and pusan/july for 2v2 and i cant remember who played ace... i think it was july? lol that was art
itd be pretty weird to have PuSan on lecaf again... anytime + jaedong + pusan, scary?
That post is not even intelligible. WiP is right, posts like these aren't what makes TL so great.
Its so sad to see this happen. July and Pusan have always been the heart and soul of MBC imo, they absolutely carried that team during the POS days. They also add so much style and flair to that team, God of War and SpiritToss. Pusan was the truly flamboyant one, especially after last year's PL win. Shitty of MBC to let them go like this, but I guess they really are taking a backseat to the younger players. Hope they end up on SKT1, whatever team they're on I'll be a fan of.
I want them to go to eStro! Things needs to get mixed up! The last thing July and Pusan need are to go onto an old, moneyed team and stop being hungry.
I was thinking the same too. I think it would make Proleague more balanced as they seem to be struggling. More players in individual leagues as well.
On May 07 2007 02:39 WhatisProtoss wrote: Thank you, sir. This is what you call a good post, people. Delete/close the other two shitty ones, please.
i messaged both carnac and beyonder before making this thread. we'll see if they're around.
I got em.
And for the record, I agree completely with WhatIsProtoss here. There was nothing wrong with the other original poster's enthusiam, but without a proper post (like haji's here), you end up with confusion + doubt + people having to go through several pages just to figure out what the real deal is. They needed to be closed.
(Although I haven't found official Korean sources confirming Pusan yet. Fifo and naver.com news only mention July being waived)
July was the heart and soul of POS, and then HERO. I have never seen a team adopt a playstyle around one player, but that's what happened with July and POS. Everybody on POS ended up playing a super aggressive, attacking style. This carried over to HERO and shaped the Sea, Bisu, Light, and Pusan that we know now.
Back when players were allowed to play in more than one game, POS line up would be like: Game 1: July Game 2: Pusan Game 3: Pusan/July ... Ace match: July.
Do I think HERO gets worse? Yes. What other Zerg option do they have? Shark? Saint? Even if July had a bad year, he was their most consistent zerg option and he really shined during playoffs. July has a knack for stepping up for the big game.
July leaving HERO is like Boxer leaving SKT. At least Boxer was forced to go because of military duty. July and HERO not seeing eye to eye on a contractual level... I suppose it's the natural order of things in professional entertainment,
but damn.
I'm too sad to continue putting my thoughts into writing.
i think its more like hero is trying to get rid of their old folks so it looks like all the players in mbc are young... i think the eldest one there is now shark who is 20 years old
july is a strong player, pusan doesnt deserve shit, hes like giving up sc and preparing for mc career. if i was mbc coach id immediately fire pusan bitch ass
On May 07 2007 06:35 Muta_lisk wrote: july is a strong player, pusan doesnt deserve shit, hes like giving up sc and preparing for mc career. if i was mbc coach id immediately fire pusan bitch ass
Sucks for MBC. July and Pusan should hook up with Nada and make a new powerteam now that Pantech is without sponsor.
Or all three could join KTF Imagine a Z lineup of July, Chojja, Yellow, P lineup of: Reach, rA, Pusan, and a T lineup of Nada, GF, Flash & Sync. Probably way too expensive though.
On May 07 2007 07:25 Guybrush wrote: Sucks for MBC. July and Pusan should hook up with Nada and make a new powerteam now that Pantech is without sponsor.
Or all three could join KTF Imagine a Z lineup of July, Chojja, Yellow, P lineup of: Reach, rA, Pusan, and a T lineup of Nada, GF, Flash & Sync. Probably way too expensive though.
And then no team would ever be able to beat them
Then Airforce Ace comes and Boxer and ForU's uber pwnage power > KTF ^_^
On May 07 2007 07:25 Guybrush wrote: Sucks for MBC. July and Pusan should hook up with Nada and make a new powerteam now that Pantech is without sponsor.
Or all three could join KTF Imagine a Z lineup of July, Chojja, Yellow, P lineup of: Reach, rA, Pusan, and a T lineup of Nada, GF, Flash & Sync. Probably way too expensive though.
I wouldn't WANT a KTF team that looked like that though.
Maybe NaDa could come back. But he didn't like being on KTF.
More info on GG net. Here is copy paste. * all credit goes to Link.Enic
I don't know where someone heard the rumor that Pusan was leaving, but no. He's staying, and he's just finished negotiating with mbc hero. 50,000 dollar for a year.
July wanted 80,000 dollar for a year with no incentive, but MBC hero said no, they offered 65,00 dollar for a year with incentive.
After this, July officialy requested waiver. (Basically free for trade.)
This is Julys interview.
original text: fighterforum.com
You requested waiver yourself. ▶Yes. I did it myself. It makes both me and MBC game feel more comfortable, doesn't it. I hope this one works out well.
Negotiations didn't work out. Was there a difference in offering?
▶I can not understand why they're offering a lower pay when we won the proleague last season. I was very dissapointed when I heard what MBC was offering to me at first. I am a bit sad, but I don't have anything against MBC game.
I heard there were other problems besides the negotiation. ▶No. Our stance was just different.
What are your future plans? ▶I find to plan a team that needs me. I will try to see as many teams as possible. If they choose me, I'll try my best not to fail them.
On May 07 2007 10:49 EvilTeletubby wrote: IMO "Bak" is the best romanized way of spelling it... at least that's most what it sounds like they're saying in VODs
Why do you guys hope July and Pusan go to good teams, like SKT1? How long didn't you see July and Pusan play in Proleague? If they join SKT1, they won't have too much chance to play in Proleague either. I would rather like them to join a second-level team so that they can have more chances to play in the Proleague.
Ah the last thing I want is July in KTF, there's so many nice names in there already and most of them aren't getting to play as it is, I agree Pantech could be nice.
It's not like MBC has much of a Zerg lineup.Letting July go even though he's not exactly at his best right now is not a good idea IMO.
It's not like he's totally shit right now either. He made it out of the group stage in the last OSL right? And he pulled out a big win vs. Oov in the ProLeague finals for them. So did Pusan for that matter.
On May 07 2007 11:03 SayaSP wrote: Wow, I didn't know there could be free agent Progamers!! lol. They should try to strengthen a weaker team... Lecaf OZ?
With progaming being professionalized by the second, players will not simply stay in a team because of the social surroundings. Combined with the greedy human nature, it's only natural for players to bargain for more money.
Also, keep in mind that these people have almost no skills other than Starcraft, and probably sub-average education (don't say commentator, game designer and all that junk, you know there is much more supply than demand). It's obviously wise for them to horde up as much money as possible and perhaps obtain a degree with it once their short career is terminated.
And finally, who knows how long this e-sports thing is going to last; or to say the least, how many more years SC is going to last?
On May 07 2007 17:20 fusionsdf wrote: So why isnt this front page yet?
I don't think all the things have been worked through, therefore the mods will probably hold off on showing this story for awhile. Once all the info is gathered there should be a newspost about it.
I wouldn't even care how much I'm getting paid, as long as its ok, I mean they provide you with good housing, A NICE COMPUTER and ok food. If your team wins, you get some huge celebration.
And who did julyzerg play at last years proleagues finals and did he win?
On May 07 2007 18:26 il0seonpurpose wrote: I wouldn't even care how much I'm getting paid, as long as its ok, I mean they provide you with good housing, A NICE COMPUTER and ok food. If your team wins, you get some huge celebration.
And who did julyzerg play at last years proleagues finals and did he win?
On May 07 2007 18:26 il0seonpurpose wrote: I wouldn't even care how much I'm getting paid, as long as its ok, I mean they provide you with good housing, A NICE COMPUTER and ok food. If your team wins, you get some huge celebration.
And who did julyzerg play at last years proleagues finals and did he win?
he beat Oov with pure lings. good game
That game was pure abuse of micro and intelligence by July.
Oov couldn't have done anything different to stop July.
No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
On May 07 2007 18:26 il0seonpurpose wrote: I wouldn't even care how much I'm getting paid, as long as its ok, I mean they provide you with good housing, A NICE COMPUTER and ok food. If your team wins, you get some huge celebration.
And who did julyzerg play at last years proleagues finals and did he win?
he beat Oov with pure lings. good game
That game was pure abuse of micro and intelligence by July.
Oov couldn't have done anything different to stop July.
On May 07 2007 18:26 il0seonpurpose wrote: I wouldn't even care how much I'm getting paid, as long as its ok, I mean they provide you with good housing, A NICE COMPUTER and ok food. If your team wins, you get some huge celebration.
And who did julyzerg play at last years proleagues finals and did he win?
You wouldn't care how much you get paid? Cambium pretty much summed it up, but these guys have banked years of their lives on this game and NEED to walk away with that money. Im interested in what kinds of plans people like Fantasy have for after starcraft dies and they're way behind their peers in experience and education with nothing to show for it.
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
well, he did win a WCG title.
wrong
oops, i meant he finished 2nd, considering how hard it is to qualify from korea.
July is the reason why Zergs don't always 12 hatch against Terrans. July reinvented the way 9 pool Zergs played.
July is like a living legend. If MBC and July don't quickly reconcile, I'm pretty sure some other team will offer the kind of money that July would agree to. People say that it would be freaking gay if he goes to a big team like SKT Telecom T1. Cool. SK Telecom T1 gets a strong Zerg, MBC Game Hero loses a strong Zerg. The other teams haven't changed.
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
disregarding 2006/2007 results, july is a better player than chojja, hands down.
within the last 12 months, casy has won an OSL while oov fell out of both leagues and did relatively nothing. if i were in charge of a team, i'd still take oov over casy.
in the same sense, i'd take july over chojja any day.
edit: btw you can't just use the fact that july hasn't done anything in 2007 as an argument cuz chojja hasn't done anything either lol.
and wtf? what dominant winning streak? winning a bunch of zvzs? letting savior take care of oov 5-0 in the MSL while just getting through by winning zvzs? how about in the OSL? winning a bunch of zvzs in that zerg-filled OSL just to lose so easily to casy? yea chojja won about 5000 zvzs in 2006. hes the man alrite...most dominant winning streak.
yes, chojja did very well in 2006, but to say he racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks by winning a bunch of zvzs is stupid. if anyone racked up a winning streak in 2006 it was savior. he dominated everyone, every matchup with the exception of his 2 losses to chojja. zvt zvp and most of his zvzs. thats a winning streak.
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
disregarding 2006/2007 results, july is a better player than chojja, hands down.
within the last 12 months, casy has won an OSL while oov fell out of both leagues and did relatively nothing. if i were in charge of a team, i'd still take oov over casy.
in the same sense, i'd take july over chojja any day.
edit: btw you can't just use the fact that july hasn't done anything in 2007 as an argument cuz chojja hasn't done anything either lol.
and wtf? what dominant winning streak? winning a bunch of zvzs? letting savior take care of oov 5-0 in the MSL while just getting through by winning zvzs? how about in the OSL? winning a bunch of zvzs in that zerg-filled OSL just to lose so easily to casy? yea chojja won about 5000 zvzs in 2006. hes the man alrite...most dominant winning streak.
yes, chojja did very well in 2006, but to say he racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks by winning a bunch of zvzs is stupid. if anyone racked up a winning streak in 2006 it was savior. he dominated everyone, every matchup with the exception of his 2 losses to chojja. zvt zvp and most of his zvzs. thats a winning streak.
Chojja was overrated even when he was ranked 1 on kespa -_-; Got to remember kespa changed their way of ranking (forgot it it was after chojja lost his #1 kespa or before)
On May 07 2007 18:26 il0seonpurpose wrote: I wouldn't even care how much I'm getting paid, as long as its ok, I mean they provide you with good housing, A NICE COMPUTER and ok food. If your team wins, you get some huge celebration.
And who did julyzerg play at last years proleagues finals and did he win?
he beat Oov with pure lings. good game
That game was pure abuse of micro and intelligence by July.
Oov couldn't have done anything different to stop July.
no, oov just lost his blocking stuff stupidly, and it was pretty close a mistake. no idea how it would have turned out had oov not lose his medic
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
disregarding 2006/2007 results, july is a better player than chojja, hands down.
within the last 12 months, casy has won an OSL while oov fell out of both leagues and did relatively nothing. if i were in charge of a team, i'd still take oov over casy.
in the same sense, i'd take july over chojja any day.
edit: btw you can't just use the fact that july hasn't done anything in 2007 as an argument cuz chojja hasn't done anything either lol.
and wtf? what dominant winning streak? winning a bunch of zvzs? letting savior take care of oov 5-0 in the MSL while just getting through by winning zvzs? how about in the OSL? winning a bunch of zvzs in that zerg-filled OSL just to lose so easily to casy? yea chojja won about 5000 zvzs in 2006. hes the man alrite...most dominant winning streak.
yes, chojja did very well in 2006, but to say he racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks by winning a bunch of zvzs is stupid. if anyone racked up a winning streak in 2006 it was savior. he dominated everyone, every matchup with the exception of his 2 losses to chojja. zvt zvp and most of his zvzs. thats a winning streak.
Anyone who asks, "what would he do with so much money anyway?" is missing the point. If that's the case, we might as well all live on a dollar a day. It's about earning what you think you're worth - self satisfaction and a feeling of selfworth. If you went to Harvard and majored in political science, I don't think you'd be happy mopping the floor at MacDonalds.
For some reason, I think he'll end up at CJ. Wasn't it Xellos who helped refine his playstyle when he first appeared on the pro-gaming circuit? I've heard that they're quite close.
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
/twitch
All Jinho does is stay greasy and play poker, lose money, and lose at Starcraft. He can't even make survivor or ODT very well nonetheless a real Starleague. He doesn't even win in PL and KTF really keeps him around because... well... They keep him around for people like you. His fans.
However, watching CHRH defeat Bisu was ... LOL, maybe Jinho can pull off a crazy game, but he should really join Ace too - -;; Get his ass done with the army and become a real progamer instead of former pro with good looks. Grr had the sense to pull out before ruining his image, Yellow, when he retires is gonna be like HOT's retirement but with more fangirls T.T's.
Chojja is KTF's best Zerg and last year was pretty good, although his impact was shit compared to how much Savior changed Z as a race and Chojja's style being quite different from Savior's...
And lol -_-;; tfeign.... Chojja is good, but July is better. My opinion, argue all you want, /ignore. I'll just say MBC wouldn't have won PL without July. And where was Chojja last OSL?
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
Easy... one can easily imagine July beating the top terrans in high tension games... Chojja? not really.
Personally I think it's pretty bullshit of MBC to give him such a huge pay cut. He'd be earning less than 1/3 of his previous earnings! You gotta sympathize with that, despite July not doing shit lately.
However, I agree w/ tfeign (mostly). Everyone just rags on him because he's a Chojja fanboy, but he does bring up good points imho. Chojja and July have done absolutely nothing in 2007, but Chojja did a helluva lot more than July did in 2006 (not as dominant as Savior, obviously). People talk about how Chojja is out of OSL and MSL, July's not in any of them either! How is that a good comparison? I don't see anything that July has done on an individual basis that overshadows Chojja's individual league results in 2006.
Edit: Whups Jyvblamo caught me there, July is in the current MSL >_>
However, I agree w/ tfeign (mostly). Everyone just rags on him because he's a Chojja fanboy, but he does bring up good points imho. Chojja and July have done absolutely nothing in 2007, but Chojja did a helluva lot more than July did in 2006 (not as dominant as Savior, obviously). People talk about how Chojja is out of OSL and MSL, July's not in any of them either! How is that a good comparison? I don't see anything that July has done on an individual basis that overshadows Chojja's individual league results in 2006.
On May 07 2007 18:26 il0seonpurpose wrote: I wouldn't even care how much I'm getting paid, as long as its ok, I mean they provide you with good housing, A NICE COMPUTER and ok food. If your team wins, you get some huge celebration.
And who did julyzerg play at last years proleagues finals and did he win?
he beat Oov with pure lings. good game
That game was pure abuse of micro and intelligence by July.
Oov couldn't have done anything different to stop July.
no, oov just lost his blocking stuff stupidly, and it was pretty close a mistake. no idea how it would have turned out had oov not lose his medic
I think July did that move simply because of that OSL final he lost to him 0-3. Remember that game on Rov? I bet in july's mind he always wanted to replay that game over and pushed for more lings at start. Hence, the ballsy aggression that game as a form of indirect revenge
On May 08 2007 15:19 jkillashark wrote: Hahaha, you getting that simple fact wrong totally discredits your post. HAHAHAHA
Does it really? Because July in MSL doesn't exactly say much (other than the fact that I was wrong about that part). What's happened in 2006 has already happened and he has already been worse than Chojja in 2006, which was the main point in my post anyways.
On May 08 2007 15:19 jkillashark wrote: Hahaha, you getting that simple fact wrong totally discredits your post. HAHAHAHA
Does it really? Because July in MSL doesn't exactly say much (other than the fact that I was wrong about that part). What's happened in 2006 has already happened and he has already been worse than Chojja in 2006, which was the main point in my post anyways.
How is 2006 more relevant than 2005 (when July was more dominant) if we think July in the current MSL "doesn't say much"...
Well, the thing is 2007 isn't over yet, so we can't rank July overall 2007 performance to be outstanding yet. It obviously beats w/e Chojja has been putting up lately in 2007, I'll give you that. 2006 is already over and it's a whole year's worth of performance from both players and is the most complete and current form of judgment for both players IMHO.
July missed his first OSL since mid 2004(Gillette the one he won). That's 9 OSLs in a row, a record he shared with GF. Only Boxer and maybe Yellow or Reach has a similar record. Chojja has missed way more OSLs, but been pretty regular in the MSLs. As of now Chojja is officially in the slump as he's in neither of the leagues. July however managed to qualify for MSL for the first time in a while.
As for results in major leagues:
Chojja won Cyon MSL(finals played january 2006) - however way easier maps than OSL for Zerg Dark Sauron(Oov lost to Mummy here, says alot), decent ZvT maps RoV&Rush Hour and R-Point(little harder ZvT positional imbalance). Chojja also mostly played Zergs on his way, except Xellos.
July got 2nd in Shinhanbank 2005(finals was played in Feb 2006?) - Terrible ZvT maps 815, Cultivation Period, then decent ZvT maps like RoV&Rush Hour. Defeated Iris on RH in the group and got trashed in the finals by the monster.
Chojja got 2nd in Shinhan 1(finals played in July 2006?) - Horrible ZvT maps 815, Pioneering Period & old Peaks(which was waaaaaaaay harder ZvT than the new one) then Rush Hour which is ok ZvT. Managed to beat Iris in a BO3, even winning on Peaks on his way to the final. Trounced in the finals only winning on RH.
July got 2nd in WCG(finals October 2006?) Awful maps ZvT Paranoid Android&Estrella, decent ZvT maps Azalea&Gaia. Managed to beat Oov on PA which is quite amazing, a combination of not good enough sunken-placement/timing in game 2, and terrible decisionmaking game 3 made him lose the finals.
Qualifying for WCG in Korea is fucking hard so dont give me that crap. And yes the players care,; its alot of money.
I think Julys proleague record overshadows Chojjas but I might be wrong. All in all they're pretty close in terms of results, although Julys consistensy in OSLs(always advanced from his group), have made a bigger impression than Chojjas frequent top placements in MSL. This is because OSL is more prestigious than MSL and has a history of having heavily Terran favoured maps especially in big disfavour of Zerg in the TvZ matchup.
This means eventhough Chojja has participated in more OSLs than July has participated in MSLs since Julys breakthrough in 2004(Chojjas history before that is not comparable to Julys. It would be close to the same as comparing Yellows MSL/OSL participations to Saviors), Julys results are more impressive. Not only do his accomplisments in terms of leagues won outshine Chojjas, but hes done it on hard as fuck ZvT maps too. Which is why he's more impressive.
July has won OSL twice, two 2nd places in OSL(equal to Chojja there), won the prestigous KT-KTF Premier league & the iTV finals where he defeated Oov in the final. 2nd in WCG, but no top 4 placements in the major leagues(I think?).
Chojja has won 1 MSL in addition to 1 2nd place in MSL and a bunch of top 4 placements in both leagues.
That being said it does feel like Chojja is way underrated now though. He has afterall usually been in atleast one of the major leagues, and there was a point in 2006 where he seemed unbeatable ZvZ(which gets less attention than being dominant in ZvT).
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
/twitch
All Jinho does is stay greasy and play poker, lose money, and lose at Starcraft. He can't even make survivor or ODT very well nonetheless a real Starleague. He doesn't even win in PL and KTF really keeps him around because... well... They keep him around for people like you. His fans.
However, watching CHRH defeat Bisu was ... LOL, maybe Jinho can pull off a crazy game, but he should really join Ace too - -;; Get his ass done with the army and become a real progamer instead of former pro with good looks. Grr had the sense to pull out before ruining his image, Yellow, when he retires is gonna be like HOT's retirement but with more fangirls T.T's.
Chojja is KTF's best Zerg and last year was pretty good, although his impact was shit compared to how much Savior changed Z as a race and Chojja's style being quite different from Savior's...
And lol -_-;; tfeign.... Chojja is good, but July is better. My opinion, argue all you want, /ignore. I'll just say MBC wouldn't have won PL without July. And where was Chojja last OSL?
yeh so I was just reading pgr21.com and trying to sort through the drama in this situation
ok, so a 'waiver' in progamer means you are essentially being kicked out of the team. July must take the offer of any team that gives him a contract within 14 days or he forfeits his qualification as a pro-gamer. This is ANY kind of contract, with first choice going to the lowest ranking team.
No team in their right mind is going to offer him more than what MBC is offering now, and it is likely that they will try to offer only just enough to stop july from quitting/joining the army in disgust.
On May 08 2007 16:29 Waxangel wrote: yeh so I was just reading pgr21.com and trying to sort through the drama in this situation
ok, so a 'waiver' in progamer means you are essentially being kicked out of the team. July must take the offer of any team that gives him a contract within 14 days or he forfeits his qualification as a pro-gamer. This is ANY kind of contract, with first choice going to the lowest ranking team.
No team in their right mind is going to offer him more than what MBC is offering now, and it is likely that they will try to offer only just enough to stop july from quitting/joining the army in disgust.
On May 08 2007 16:29 Waxangel wrote: yeh so I was just reading pgr21.com and trying to sort through the drama in this situation
ok, so a 'waiver' in progamer means you are essentially being kicked out of the team. July must take the offer of any team that gives him a contract within 14 days or he forfeits his qualification as a pro-gamer. This is ANY kind of contract, with first choice going to the lowest ranking team.
No team in their right mind is going to offer him more than what MBC is offering now, and it is likely that they will try to offer only just enough to stop july from quitting/joining the army in disgust.
Really? That seems totally backwards! Why would anyone want to leave their team over money if they are virtually guaranteed to wind up on a worse team with less pay? I simply can't believe that's the case! It's totally crooked! By that logic, teams can just cut the players' pay whenever they damn well please to whatever they want, and eStro can just threaten to take them for room and board. Fuck that. July is worth a lot of money.
On May 07 2007 18:58 SuperJongMan wrote: No. July was MBC and Savior is CJ. Chojja and Yellow do not cut it atm. KTF has no ace level Zerg, or I guess Chojja is their ace Zerg... And July fits well with KTF's Zergs.
In 2006 Chojja won an MSL, top 2 OSL; racked up one of the most dominant winning streaks; was the only player to have beaten Savior in a series, and not just once but twice; rated as the best zerg by Kespa for months; rated as best overall player by Kespa for months; ranked top 2/3 for most of the remainder.
In 2006 July accomplished nothing.
In 2007 July accomplished nothing.
July has done nothing notable since 2005. What exactly makes Chojja "not cut it", while July does?
you mean besides chojja losing to pretty much every single bad player hes come across recently?
On May 08 2007 17:25 Wasabi wrote: July got too greedy, and it backstabbed him. He shouldn't ask for more especially if he's not performing like 6-figure salary progamers currently (which he used to have) such as Midas/Nada/and now oov.
But take a look on MBC's side: they got caught on KeSPA's bait with the Proleague deal so they're losing even more money than when they gave July a good salary.
He was already taking a pay cut. Regardless of why this particular situation happened, a policy where players who get kicked off a team can basically be taken by the worst team for no money is totally ridiculous. I mean, if Savior and the coach from CJ had a falling out, could they just kick him off of the team and have him be picked up by some bad team for no money? That seems insanely unfair to me.
MBC is such a power house, how do they treat their players so poorly? Pusan, the captain, getting paid 50k? What the fuck is that. Half the KTF line up makes around 100k a year.
This is bullshit. Is MBC paying anybody anything decent? They deserve to lose all their stars if this is how they run things.
On May 08 2007 18:35 thedeadhaji wrote: well it's only this past one year that they've been a powerhouse. Before then, they were lowly POS, with only July and Pusan.
It was only in 2006 that we saw the rise of Sea, Bisu, and towards the latter half, Shark. Well I guess sea was towards the end of 2005, but still
That's kind of the point. They're winning now.
Does that not entail better management of sponsers, cash flow, compensation of players/staff?
If this is a reflection of their capabilities as a team, they won't hold on to a single decent player past the renewal of their contracts and they'll be back to being the "lowly POS" once again.
On May 08 2007 16:03 Guybrush wrote: July missed his first OSL since mid 2004(Gillette the one he won). That's 9 OSLs in a row, a record he shared with GF. Only Boxer and maybe Yellow or Reach has a similar record. Chojja has missed way more OSLs, but been pretty regular in the MSLs. As of now Chojja is officially in the slump as he's in neither of the leagues. July however managed to qualify for MSL for the first time in a while.
Just qualifying for leagues doesn't mean anything much. Mumuyng qualified for every single OSL back in the days, Child is qualifying for every OSL these days. It doesn't mean much when they qualify just to completely suck when the leagues start, which pretty much defines July 2006-to-present.
Chojja won Cyon MSL(finals played january 2006) - however way easier maps than OSL for Zerg Dark Sauron(Oov lost to Mummy here, says alot), decent ZvT maps RoV&Rush Hour and R-Point(little harder ZvT positional imbalance). Chojja also mostly played Zergs on his way, except Xellos.
These maps are as balanced for zvt as it gets.
Qualifying for WCG in Korea is fucking hard so dont give me that crap. And yes the players care,; its alot of money.
Qualifying for WCG USED to be hard. But when players like July received the gift of an auto-seed due to his performance in 2005, qualifying, at least for him, was nothing hard
Not only do his accomplisments in terms of leagues won outshine Chojjas, but hes done it on hard as fuck ZvT maps too. Which is why he's more impressive.
How exactly are maps such as Luna, RoV, Neo Requiem, Forte, Mercury, Nostalgia, Namja Iyagi (maps used during July's 2 league wins) qualify as "hard as fuck ZVT maps?" If anything, some of these maps qualify as "easy as fuck" zvp maps that allowed July to get literally free wins vs P, but none of these maps are "hard as fuck zvt maps"
July has won OSL twice, two 2nd places in OSL(equal to Chojja there), won the prestigous KT-KTF Premier league & the iTV finals where he defeated Oov in the final. 2nd in WCG, but no top 4 placements in the major leagues(I think?).
Chojja has won 1 MSL in addition to 1 2nd place in MSL and a bunch of top 4 placements in both leagues.
That being said it does feel like Chojja is way underrated now though. He has afterall usually been in atleast one of the major leagues, and there was a point in 2006 where he seemed unbeatable ZvZ(which gets less attention than being dominant in ZvT).
My opinion says Chojja is a better player than July, but feel free to hold your own opinion. I'm not here to argue Chojja > July. It only comes down to how you weigh recent accomplishments vs old accomplishments. But for anyone to come say "Chojja doesn't cut it anymore" and that July coming in would somehow bring the team to a whole new level of zerg is completely ridiculous and stupid. If anything, July fits the complete description of a player who doesn't cut it anymore - it's the sole reason why MBC lets him go in the first place.
which sounds more ridiculous??? garimto getting paid 40000, free being paid 6000, or july getting paid 60000??? for me, garimto getting paid 40000 is the most ridiculous. not a single game
free. Although since his salary was determined pre-2006, I guess it was reasonable at the time (he hadn't done anything yet. I'd expect a bit below GGplay money, whatever that is.
garimto brings name value and recognition, as well as leadership (you dont have to be a great player to be able to band a group of players together, and there aren't that many guys who can head a team of stars like KTF). Well, this is all theory though.
July 60,000 is on the low side but I mean, I don't have to rehash the contents of this thread again so
GARIMTO doesn't NEED to play games. He basically keeps everyone in line and motivated. Under his captaincy, KTF has regained its top-4 status: before, under rA, they were what? rank 10?
He reminds me a lot of TheMarine, in that he looks and acts the part of the leader. TheMarine also played games, though.
On May 08 2007 21:40 intelinside wrote: wasnt nada getting paid like more than the rest of his teammates combined?? i think he was getting paid 200000
NaDa is hands down the best player on Pantech. None of his teammates deny that fact. And if he loses a match in proleague, his team is lost. That is why NaDa is put out as the first player in the PantechEX lineup, since a first win would lift his team's spirits and garner a win.
The best starcraft player in history decides to stay with one of the worst proleague teams. He deserves that big salary.
I still believe July won't be making as much as his previous contract promised. I doubt the teams will pay that much for a veteran zerg player who hasn't shown results to deserve the money. His results are still consistent and better than a lot of players, but he isn't doing as much as he should be doing with the money he's getting. I hope this gets solved real soon, this year has been full of bullshit with Kespa and now this..
well the thing is winning has really nothing to do with the team's income. so a poor team that wins will inevitably sell off its players. it's not like the teams collect revenue from anything that correlates to winning. how much do they want to win? they are compelled by teh structure of the whole set up but nevertheless they dont relaly have to win.
That means teams like 4u and IS get more money and better set up and eventually become what it is... while a team like hanbit will stay mediocre for life until a hanbit player fuckin turns the world upside down for a change... They used to have a decent budget... back in the old days, when a big budget was food + shelter -_-;; Witin a few years, huge contracts arise and shit.. weeeeee
And Nada is better than the rest of Pantech combined into a single prozerran monster. Nada is Pantech.
On May 09 2007 03:23 SuperJongMan wrote: Winning brings sponsors. Kor/OGN, Plus/Lecaf, GO/CJ, POS/MBC.
That means teams like 4u and IS get more money and better set up and eventually become what it is... while a team like hanbit will stay mediocre for life until a hanbit player fuckin turns the world upside down for a change... They used to have a decent budget... back in the old days, when a big budget was food + shelter -_-;; Witin a few years, huge contracts arise and shit.. weeeeee
And Nada is better than the rest of Pantech combined into a single prozerran monster. Nada is Pantech.
On May 08 2007 16:03 Guybrush wrote: July missed his first OSL since mid 2004(Gillette the one he won). That's 9 OSLs in a row, a record he shared with GF. Only Boxer and maybe Yellow or Reach has a similar record. Chojja has missed way more OSLs, but been pretty regular in the MSLs. As of now Chojja is officially in the slump as he's in neither of the leagues. July however managed to qualify for MSL for the first time in a while.
Just qualifying for leagues doesn't mean anything much. Mumuyng qualified for every single OSL back in the days, Child is qualifying for every OSL these days. It doesn't mean much when they qualify just to completely suck when the leagues start, which pretty much defines July 2006-to-present.
looooooooooool. july has never, ever been directly eliminated in the group stages. for 9. straight. OSLs.
and no, child has only qualified for several OSLs and hes gone 0-6 in the two he played, and now 0-2 in the MSL, making him a grand total of 0-8 in major league play.
Who care's what July or Chojja won? In the end it's not about how much money you win, it's how much publicity you can gain for your sponsor. Cause your sponsor pays your team and your team pays you. All great players have their own "aura" around them and that is what the men in the suit with the money is looking for.
Hell boxer could sell crap in a box and people would buy it. That's what it is all about. It's how much money they can gain with you. That's the whole reason why most of these oldskool ktf guys still getting paid. It's not cause Yellow played sooo well back in the days. It's because he's a moving teenymagnet.
The only reason why some players get a huge contract and others don't, even tough they play in the same league and on the same level, is because they sell themself as a person and not just as a progamer.
I totaly understand july. Let's don't forget, these guys are the first of their kind. Noone knows what comes after it, when it ends and what they're going to do when its eventualy over. Basicaly every one besides the progamers is able to do something else when things fall apart. Channels switch their programs, fans go on with their lifes, sponsors jump ship, etc. etc.
I wish july all the best, he's the god of war after all and one of the kings of starcraft for me.
On May 09 2007 03:23 SuperJongMan wrote: Winning brings sponsors. Kor/OGN, Plus/Lecaf, GO/CJ, POS/MBC.
That means teams like 4u and IS get more money and better set up and eventually become what it is... while a team like hanbit will stay mediocre for life until a hanbit player fuckin turns the world upside down for a change... They used to have a decent budget... back in the old days, when a big budget was food + shelter -_-;; Witin a few years, huge contracts arise and shit.. weeeeee
And Nada is better than the rest of Pantech combined into a single prozerran monster. Nada is Pantech.
well then let's say there are no returns for winning past a certain point. the team can be mediocre and still marketable, maybe due to fanboy influence. cough cough
July brings in nothing for MBC. From a capitalist point of view, he deserves to be let go. He brings in a lot of good publicity, which is good for any other sponsor. However, MBC is a little different. MBC makes money from broadcasting Starcraft. Are more people going to watch MBC because MBC's team is winning? MBC has a monopoly on the MBC league. They can't broadcast the OSL. And which channel fans watch the proleague on comes down to commentators.
From the team's point of view, it's been said many times: July is not an intelligent player. He's got super fast fingers, yes, and he can play a difficult strategy to perfection. But that also means a very short career. Boxer contributes to the team, even when he's not winning. He can motivate, he can innovate, he can groom talent. Ditto with Garimto. But July? If he doesn't win, he has nothing.
Perhaps now we'll see an end to the ridiculous argument that it's fast fingers that matter the most. Fast fingers don't have the staying power that intelligent play has.
i guess im really in no position to judge this, but july seems to make especially bad decisions in zvt. for the most part hes gotten away with it due to his superior control, but sometimes his opponents just make him look silly (his games vs oov from wcg last year come to mind).
On May 09 2007 01:43 Guybrush wrote: The moment you began comparing Mumyung with Julys 2006 perfomances was the moment I stopped reading the rest of your post.
I expected a way better response from you than this.
I agree it was a bad response, but I dont think it would be right for me, you and your_killer to hijack a thread like this and have a completely offtopic discussion.
On May 09 2007 03:23 SuperJongMan wrote: Winning brings sponsors. Kor/OGN, Plus/Lecaf, GO/CJ, POS/MBC.
That means teams like 4u and IS get more money and better set up and eventually become what it is... while a team like hanbit will stay mediocre for life until a hanbit player fuckin turns the world upside down for a change... They used to have a decent budget... back in the old days, when a big budget was food + shelter -_-;; Witin a few years, huge contracts arise and shit.. weeeeee
And Nada is better than the rest of Pantech combined into a single prozerran monster. Nada is Pantech.
hmm soul -> stx soul ; still bottom of proleague
glad they kept pusan.. worth the 50,000 imo;;
Soul is also one of the poorer teams with Estro and while they got sponsorships.... Plus, Soul is an INCREDIBLY old team so it's a lil different I guess. Plus Soul scrammed for a sponsor and barely found STX. It's like how Pantech is so broke and only has Nada while they did homegrow KeKe and Rock... but -_-;; The teams that perform well tend to pick up better sponsors. I'm not saying it's the only way, but generally, performance picks up sponsorship notice.
Then again, there is Samsung who simply become stronger and stronger with time... so who knows.
But I don't think I'm off at all in saying better performance brings more money for these guys as a team in general. All the above teams besides Lecaf did great in PL before picking up their current sponsor.
EDIT - Also, someone mentioned how there is a upper cap and marketability takes over performance -_-;; but Let's be nice to KTF. They are still a great team and honestly only had one UGLY UGLY season. Just like SKT1, both teams are doing fine now, and while KTF is still questionable, who's to deny they are a top team with their Ace roster? They don't live up to their legacy at the moment, but being the Legends of SC is a hard thing to live up to. I don't doubt KTF's power in the end though... cept the Z roster, which is why I say get July over there!!!
I hope a big money team picks him up for a resonable salary.
Either they're being cheap, or they're mismanaging their sponsership options. In any case, MBC management doesn't deserve the players they have at those salaries. I hope KTF and T1 buy them all up again so these asshats will learn.
It's time that these kids stopped getting abused by team management. Results should ALWAYS equal cash in SC. (eventually)
on a different note, how many bona fide "ace" zergs are there on these teams? CJ - Savior Hanbit - GGplay Lecaf - Jaedong (but his zvp is still suspect) OGN - Yarnc
i'm not sure about jju, chojja, and cool being in this category? Looking at how poor the ace zerg market seems to be, July really isn't in that bad of a position I would think...
On May 09 2007 13:14 thedeadhaji wrote: ah you're right >__>
on a different note, how many bona fide "ace" zergs are there on these teams? CJ - Savior Hanbit - GGplay Lecaf - Jaedong (but his zvp is still suspect) OGN - Yarnc
i'm not sure about jju, chojja, and cool being in this category? Looking at how poor the ace zerg market seems to be, July really isn't in that bad of a position I would think...
In his winners' interview from the MSL ro32, the interview didn't even address any sort of negotiations, and it sounds like July is living at home and practicing in his fathers' PC Bang. He seems really determined, but I'm worried about him. It sounds like he's under a lot of pressure and sort of unhappy/on edge. I've always thought he's one of the most endearing players, and has always been one of my favorites, so I really want to see him do well. Also, he was still wearing his MBC uniform; what's the deal with that? Does he have to wear it, or do you think he chose to for some reason? I don't get it
Someone mentioned rules about the lowest teams getting to make offers first or something? Is there a specific process that is supposed to be followed when this happens, or anything else that might imply a time frame? What happens if he fails to find a worthwhile team? Will he just be forced to quit progaming, or what? I feel like there must be SOME news on this front since it was first reported, isn't it getting any buzz in the Korean scene?
A waiver does not mean he is dropped by the team. It simply means he is out on the market. His waiver lasts two weeks, and he's down to 3 days now. Until then, he will represent the MBC Team, (but does not play for them or live with them).
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img.osen.co.kr/Osen_NewsData/200705071558423100_1.jpg)
hmm...
Imagine a Z lineup of July, Chojja, Yellow, P lineup of: Reach, rA, Pusan, and a T lineup of Nada, GF, Flash & Sync. Probably way too expensive though.
