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StarCraft: Remastered coming in May? - Page 51

Forum Index > BW General
1190 CommentsPost a Reply
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[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
March 26 2017 02:10 GMT
#1001
1000 posts in this thread, in just 12 days.

User was warned for being hilarious
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-26 02:22:50
March 26 2017 02:22 GMT
#1002
On March 26 2017 10:05 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
There's a skewed perception by people that have been high ranked for many years that it's easy to find low rank games. It isn't. If you're a newcomer even D- will crush you. You basically have to play E ranks only. Also, finding true D-/D ranks is not as trivial. The idea that the majority of the server is D rank comes from the rank being awarded to everyone at the start, most of those being players that have no interest in 1v1 to begin with. Every time I say the rank system is broken there's the same users saying that it's fine and smurfs are not a problem, who all happen to just be B or above, coincidentally. I guarantee a guy that's been a B rank for over 5 years can't tell the difference in skill between D and D+, which is huge
The fact that new players will lose to d- isnt really that important, as the objective skill gap between them is very small. A gamer with any experience of any kind with an RTS [or hell any game] could beat a d- player in a couple of days of playing broodwar. Honestly. If they're halfway intelligent and actually try to learn, they will. In any case, the emphasis on coddling people who might experience minor emotional distress by being beaten at a game they've never played is...beyond me.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
lestye
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4243 Posts
March 26 2017 02:35 GMT
#1003
On March 26 2017 11:22 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2017 10:05 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
There's a skewed perception by people that have been high ranked for many years that it's easy to find low rank games. It isn't. If you're a newcomer even D- will crush you. You basically have to play E ranks only. Also, finding true D-/D ranks is not as trivial. The idea that the majority of the server is D rank comes from the rank being awarded to everyone at the start, most of those being players that have no interest in 1v1 to begin with. Every time I say the rank system is broken there's the same users saying that it's fine and smurfs are not a problem, who all happen to just be B or above, coincidentally. I guarantee a guy that's been a B rank for over 5 years can't tell the difference in skill between D and D+, which is huge
The fact that new players will lose to d- isnt really that important, as the objective skill gap between them is very small. A gamer with any experience of any kind with an RTS [or hell any game] could beat a d- player in a couple of days of playing broodwar. Honestly. If they're halfway intelligent and actually try to learn, they will. In any case, the emphasis on coddling people who might experience minor emotional distress by being beaten at a game they've never played is...beyond me.

It's not important to a determined individual but its extremely important for a healthy playerbase to grow.
"You guys are just edgelords. Embrace your inner weeb desu" -Zergneedsfood
TL+ Member
rand0MPrecisi0n
Profile Joined February 2017
313 Posts
March 26 2017 02:35 GMT
#1004
' A gamer with any experience of any kind with an RTS [or hell any game] could beat a d- player in a couple of days of playing broodwar.'

Bold assumption uh? This means the D- player by your very definition has no kind of experience in 'hell any game'
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-26 02:40:47
March 26 2017 02:38 GMT
#1005
On March 26 2017 11:35 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
' A gamer with any experience of any kind with an RTS [or hell any game] could beat a d- player in a couple of days of playing broodwar.'

Bold assumption uh? This means the D- player by your very definition has no kind of experience in 'hell any game'
That or theres a physical/mental impairment/disinterest in improving and emphasis on just fun. People dont remain inept at things without an explanation.
On March 26 2017 11:35 lestye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2017 11:22 Dazed_Spy wrote:
On March 26 2017 10:05 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
There's a skewed perception by people that have been high ranked for many years that it's easy to find low rank games. It isn't. If you're a newcomer even D- will crush you. You basically have to play E ranks only. Also, finding true D-/D ranks is not as trivial. The idea that the majority of the server is D rank comes from the rank being awarded to everyone at the start, most of those being players that have no interest in 1v1 to begin with. Every time I say the rank system is broken there's the same users saying that it's fine and smurfs are not a problem, who all happen to just be B or above, coincidentally. I guarantee a guy that's been a B rank for over 5 years can't tell the difference in skill between D and D+, which is huge
The fact that new players will lose to d- isnt really that important, as the objective skill gap between them is very small. A gamer with any experience of any kind with an RTS [or hell any game] could beat a d- player in a couple of days of playing broodwar. Honestly. If they're halfway intelligent and actually try to learn, they will. In any case, the emphasis on coddling people who might experience minor emotional distress by being beaten at a game they've never played is...beyond me.

It's not important to a determined individual but its extremely important for a healthy playerbase to grow.
True, and I dont dispute the small player base of bw causes harsher skill gaps than most games, plus iccups ladder system is terribly designed. But at the end of the day, broodwar is a frustrating game, that due to its mechanical and strategical complexity, produces certain harsh realities. If you cant stand the heat, get out of the fire: No one who would leave broodwar because they got their ass handed to them would ever stay, because thats what broodwar is all about in the first place. (Or they would perpetually remain in d- and complain about it on TL).
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-26 02:40:49
March 26 2017 02:39 GMT
#1006
I can't understand how there are people having high hopes on this project...
Like I said before, it's impossible to recreate BW. If Blizzard manages to do it with 90% of accuracy I'd be very surprised.
So I sincerely expect nothing from it. And if you don't want to be very disappointed, you should lower your expectations too.

Edit: doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy a 90% accurate BW replica in HD (keep the game 2D though).
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
rand0MPrecisi0n
Profile Joined February 2017
313 Posts
March 26 2017 02:39 GMT
#1007
lestye got it right, it's not about the indivudual, at least not only about the invididual. If we encourage newcomers suddenly they start getting more into the game and the social network effect starts to happen. They tell a friend or two, they also feel encouraged, now there's less chance of quitting since they're in this together. Each tells a friend or two, now there's seven of them, give it a couple years the more talented/hard working ones will be breaking the B ranks and suddenly the 'can't find high rank games' problem is solved
Ethelis
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2400 Posts
March 26 2017 02:40 GMT
#1008
I think one of the few things that can be taken from sc2 is to add some tutorials as a bridge between complete RTS chobo ---> D-. To be fair im not sure how useful it is in sc2 but adding stuff like that for people with little experience would be greatly welcomed. If a remaster comes out, I would definitely target those players to maximize retention.
Disabled gamer - Diamond 3 (LoL) D+ Rank scrublord on BW. Bisu doesnt need DTs, He uses probes. just ask Flash.
rand0MPrecisi0n
Profile Joined February 2017
313 Posts
March 26 2017 02:48 GMT
#1009
On March 26 2017 11:38 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2017 11:35 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
' A gamer with any experience of any kind with an RTS [or hell any game] could beat a d- player in a couple of days of playing broodwar.'

Bold assumption uh? This means the D- player by your very definition has no kind of experience in 'hell any game'
That or theres a physical/mental impairment/disinterest in improving and emphasis on just fun. People dont remain inept at things without an explanation.
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2017 11:35 lestye wrote:
On March 26 2017 11:22 Dazed_Spy wrote:
On March 26 2017 10:05 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
There's a skewed perception by people that have been high ranked for many years that it's easy to find low rank games. It isn't. If you're a newcomer even D- will crush you. You basically have to play E ranks only. Also, finding true D-/D ranks is not as trivial. The idea that the majority of the server is D rank comes from the rank being awarded to everyone at the start, most of those being players that have no interest in 1v1 to begin with. Every time I say the rank system is broken there's the same users saying that it's fine and smurfs are not a problem, who all happen to just be B or above, coincidentally. I guarantee a guy that's been a B rank for over 5 years can't tell the difference in skill between D and D+, which is huge
The fact that new players will lose to d- isnt really that important, as the objective skill gap between them is very small. A gamer with any experience of any kind with an RTS [or hell any game] could beat a d- player in a couple of days of playing broodwar. Honestly. If they're halfway intelligent and actually try to learn, they will. In any case, the emphasis on coddling people who might experience minor emotional distress by being beaten at a game they've never played is...beyond me.

It's not important to a determined individual but its extremely important for a healthy playerbase to grow.
True, and I dont dispute the small player base of bw causes harsher skill gaps than most games, plus iccups ladder system is terribly designed. But at the end of the day, broodwar is a frustrating game, that due to its mechanical and strategical complexity, produces certain harsh realities. If you cant stand the heat, get out of the fire: No one who would leave broodwar because they got their ass handed to them would ever stay, because thats what broodwar is all about in the first place. (Or they would perpetually remain in d- and complain about it on TL).


Seems like your entire arguing technique is based on weird assumptions. You're telling me that a player that has a desire to improve can just start beating d- consistently (not 1 out of 10) in a couple of days? How much improvement you think people can achieve in two days? Lol. Worse than that is the assumption that 'at the end of the day, brood war is a frustrating game'. Pretty sure that depends heavily on what environment you are on. Let's say you have an environment of 50 newcomers all playing each other nonstop. Is that a frustrating experience? They all are going to lose to dumb shit, and win with dumb shit, so we can expect a close to 50% winrate for most of them. According to you they should all be frustrated cause that's just how bw is, right?
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
March 26 2017 02:50 GMT
#1010
I already did some small effort towards helping new players by updating ZvZ articles. We just need more experienced players to also help out with this (looking at trutacz, eonzerg, bonyth, koget,...).
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Canadianboy
Profile Joined December 2016
32 Posts
March 26 2017 02:51 GMT
#1011
On March 26 2017 11:50 B-royal wrote:
I already did some small effort towards helping new players by updating ZvZ articles. We just need more experienced players to also help out with this (looking at trutacz, eonzerg, bonyth, koget,...).


you really love z vs z lmao
rand0MPrecisi0n
Profile Joined February 2017
313 Posts
March 26 2017 02:52 GMT
#1012
Anyway I've already argued this over and over and it's always some schmuck like you using terrible logic to sustain questionable positions. If you can't see how bad the rank system is and how shitty the life of a newcomer is, or if you know it's shitty but thinks it's 'just the way bw is', there's nothing I can say to change your mind
gngfn
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1726 Posts
March 26 2017 03:03 GMT
#1013
On March 26 2017 11:39 fabiano wrote:
I can't understand how there are people having high hopes on this project...
Like I said before, it's impossible to recreate BW. If Blizzard manages to do it with 90% of accuracy I'd be very surprised.
So I sincerely expect nothing from it. And if you don't want to be very disappointed, you should lower your expectations too.

Edit: doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy a 90% accurate BW replica in HD (keep the game 2D though).

I mean, ordinarily I would agree with you, but in a world where this exists, it seems like the people with full access to the original source should be able to do even better.

I think their willingness to preserve the original gameplay is a much bigger risk than their ability to do so.
Fazers
Profile Joined August 2013
737 Posts
March 26 2017 03:06 GMT
#1014
I'm so excited but so scared at the same time.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12257 Posts
March 26 2017 03:16 GMT
#1015
The way to grow a community is definitely not to put them in a trial by fire. There's an interesting counterpoint in Dota 2 but in that game Valve applied MULTIPLE levels of skill determination (even starting with a survey "So, how well do you know Dota?") to try and separate the new and bad players from the veterans. SC2 had a similar rocky start with the BW veterans dominating at first and the Forever Bronze crew complaining that they were constantly outmatched and not having any fun until they eventually reached their low low potential.

In Dota, as with SC2, they try to make multiplayer the default way to play. Whenever you do that, the game has to be as welcoming and noncorrosive as possible. Players may learn hard lessons at first, but by your 5th or 10th game, it shouldn't STILL feel impossible. ICCup and other third-party ranking systems do. Because everyone starts at pretty close to the bottom, that means any new account can have any potential: high or low. So you get this terribly brutal environment where good players create new accounts to blow off steam and mercilessly crush hapless newbies. And because those good players -- and therefore their smurf accounts -- are generally more active, the odds of encountering a true learning casual at the starting rank are slim. Couple this with the small but dedicated playerbase who all have established pretty wide gaps between each other, and you get this fierce battleground where things start out tough and only get tougher.

I tried to mitigate this a little bit in the ShieldBattery ladder design by having a "new player" pool which also carried wider rating change per game. It's not a perfect solution and it's by no means smurf-proof (nothing really is), but there were other measures employed that would make good players feel more attached to their account so they wouldn't really want to smurf. The health of the ladder as a whole relies on an active playerbase and new blood to keep it fresh.
Moderator
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3711 Posts
March 26 2017 03:19 GMT
#1016
New game means lots of new players -> Newbies get to have a 50ish% winrate rather than the current 10%. Most of them will quit/play fun maps only and what remains will be D- by the time the rest gives up. Should give a decent influx of new blood.
GoShox
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States1845 Posts
March 26 2017 03:26 GMT
#1017
On March 26 2017 12:16 Excalibur_Z wrote:
The way to grow a community is definitely not to put them in a trial by fire. There's an interesting counterpoint in Dota 2 but in that game Valve applied MULTIPLE levels of skill determination (even starting with a survey "So, how well do you know Dota?") to try and separate the new and bad players from the veterans. SC2 had a similar rocky start with the BW veterans dominating at first and the Forever Bronze crew complaining that they were constantly outmatched and not having any fun until they eventually reached their low low potential.

In Dota, as with SC2, they try to make multiplayer the default way to play. Whenever you do that, the game has to be as welcoming and noncorrosive as possible. Players may learn hard lessons at first, but by your 5th or 10th game, it shouldn't STILL feel impossible. ICCup and other third-party ranking systems do. Because everyone starts at pretty close to the bottom, that means any new account can have any potential: high or low. So you get this terribly brutal environment where good players create new accounts to blow off steam and mercilessly crush hapless newbies. And because those good players -- and therefore their smurf accounts -- are generally more active, the odds of encountering a true learning casual at the starting rank are slim. Couple this with the small but dedicated playerbase who all have established pretty wide gaps between each other, and you get this fierce battleground where things start out tough and only get tougher.

I tried to mitigate this a little bit in the ShieldBattery ladder design by having a "new player" pool which also carried wider rating change per game. It's not a perfect solution and it's by no means smurf-proof (nothing really is), but there were other measures employed that would make good players feel more attached to their account so they wouldn't really want to smurf. The health of the ladder as a whole relies on an active playerbase and new blood to keep it fresh.


Yeah I have to agree with this. I feel like a lot of people think it's fine this way just because that's how all of us learned as BW players. Getting on iCCup and getting demolished was the main way of learning, and it did feel rewarding once you started winning games. Then you start playing during Korean hours and get smashed some more, but learn even more from it. The start of seasons was always the best as you could get some games in with pro gamers and get smashed even harder but get your chance to play with the big boys.

Of course, not everyone enjoys this. Some people might want to queue up and know that they're most likely getting someone around their level rather than someone who is just working their way up the ladder on a new account. An automatchmaking like this would help out immensely.
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
March 26 2017 03:40 GMT
#1018
On March 26 2017 11:50 B-royal wrote:
I already did some small effort towards helping new players by updating ZvZ articles. We just need more experienced players to also help out with this (looking at trutacz, eonzerg, bonyth, koget,...).


People are gonna be playing a lot more mirrors if auto matchmaking gets added.
CobaltBlu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States919 Posts
March 26 2017 03:42 GMT
#1019
The fact that 1v1 is challenging and difficult for so many people is one of the reasons why I hope they make it easy to create and join UMS lobbies if this hd update is real. I'm pretty sure a large portion of the SC player base is hanging out playing hunters/BGH and UMS just having fun. Those people can play and be familiar with the game without being in a high stress 1v1 environment and eventually join the ladder if they get comfortable enough.
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
March 26 2017 03:52 GMT
#1020
On March 26 2017 11:06 Cryoc wrote:
If you are truly new, you have probably around the same lack of players and finding good games as when you are A or higher. You can just take a look at the last page of the ladder ranking on ICCUP: http://iccup.com/en/starcraft/ladder/1x1/page82.html . Around 50 people are really new, but there are like 500 accounts who are d- currently, so they should not have that much problems to find games. Question is, how big is the gap in those regions?


If you're truly new, you make a new game and sit in the lobby for 20 minutes wondering why no one's joining, because you didn't know to open whatever port it is, and if you try to join someone else's game, they kick you for your antihack being off because of technical reasons. So you get that taken care of, and they kick you for being toss when they wanted to play ZvT, but you keep trying and eventually you get a game going at 10FPS because the host is in Russia and he's installed BW on a potato, but eventually you get a good game and get crushed because it's against a B player's smurf account.

Or I could play on the BNet 2.0 model where I push the "game" button and wait 15 seconds.
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