EPTOpenBW Introduction - Page 18
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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fish_radio
182 Posts
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Piste
6163 Posts
On January 24 2018 12:52 ninazerg wrote: I support this, but I think Blizzard would pull a lawsuit to block this, unfortunately. I have no idea what the law says. For sure there are differences between different countries. But I've seen lots of mobile games on google play store being almost exact copies of another one, some which even have really similar graphics compared to original one. So if open openBW code is made from scratch and has fan made graphics, could Blizzards lawyer army even say anything? | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1960 Posts
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Vendethiel
213 Posts
The actual OpenBW engine has not received major changes, it seems, since early october. Free time comes and goes  . | ||
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dicey
142 Posts
On January 24 2018 15:24 Piste wrote: So if open openBW code is made from scratch and has fan made graphics, could Blizzards lawyer army even say anything? If it looks like Coca-Cola/an iPhone and if it sells because of it (or it's appeal is mainly the likeness) then yes, it's definitely not legal, regardless of the fact that you 'made' it or own the technology/IP of the bits and pieces required to imitate it. Even if you don't sell it but give it away for free, it can reasonably hurt the brand. Star Trek franchising/licensing for fan projects used to be a good example for anything goes, but they went back on that hard -- iirc because of 'possibly hurting' the new universe films commercially. Likely it's not that different in SKorea. Whoever @Blizzard_Ent is making it harder for SC:BW tournaments in Korea to be a thing (because of licensing) likely is the same branch of the company that would block, say, big OpenBW tournaments in the US. With a vengeance. | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
On January 24 2018 15:24 Piste wrote: I have no idea what the law says. For sure there are differences between different countries. But I've seen lots of mobile games on google play store being almost exact copies of another one, some which even have really similar graphics compared to original one. So if open openBW code is made from scratch and has fan made graphics, could Blizzards lawyer army even say anything? Blizzard could drown them just in lawyer cost. They can afford dozens/hundreds of thousands of collars of lawyer costs. I highly doubt the OpenBW team can. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
:p I wonder how much money would Blizzard honestly demand to let Starcraft become public domain. Let them name the final time price, and we crowdfund it. :p | ||
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Piste
6163 Posts
On January 24 2018 19:10 dicey wrote: If it looks like Coca-Cola/an iPhone and if it sells because of it (or it's appeal is mainly the likeness) then yes, it's definitely not legal, regardless of the fact that you 'made' it or own the technology/IP of the bits and pieces required to imitate it. Even if you don't sell it but give it away for free, it can reasonably hurt the brand. Star Trek franchising/licensing for fan projects used to be a good example for anything goes, but they went back on that hard -- iirc because of 'possibly hurting' the new universe films commercially. Likely it's not that different in SKorea. Whoever @Blizzard_Ent is making it harder for SC:BW tournaments in Korea to be a thing (because of licensing) likely is the same branch of the company that would block, say, big OpenBW tournaments in the US. With a vengeance. You cut out the part of the quote that was the reason why I was asking the question. Are you sure the law is interpret the same way in video game industry? Obviously openBW is not using StarCraft trademark or copying their story. On January 24 2018 19:18 Superouman wrote: Blizzard could drown them just in lawyer cost. They can afford dozens/hundreds of thousands of collars of lawyer costs. I highly doubt the OpenBW team can. Haha yeah most likely, unless there are example cases already where the copy cat won. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3666 Posts
On January 24 2018 21:10 niteReloaded wrote: How long before copyright expires? :p I wonder how much money would Blizzard honestly demand to let Starcraft become public domain. Let them name the final time price, and we crowdfund it. :p Well sc2 still makes cash via lootboxes. Maybe there is some way to only make Starcraft 1 public domain and let blizzard keep SC2 and an option for any future starcraft games. I'm super down for that crowdfunding campaign. | ||
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dicey
142 Posts
On January 24 2018 22:29 Piste wrote: You cut out the part of the quote that was the reason why I was asking the question. Are you sure the law is interpret the same way in video game industry? Obviously openBW is not using StarCraft trademark or copying their story. Because I wasn't replying to that. Probably in servicing/digital products licensing and trademarks (relative to revenue, that is) is probably even stricter than for industrial or physical consumer products. So no doubt it applies to OpenBW if they were to commercialise or get any media attention, as goes with sponsors, from big tournaments (likely easy to argue in court for protecting brand against costly control of IP infringement, or because data can be sold or made money from easily). If it looks like BW and if it plays like BW and if it attracts attention like BW (away from SC2 or official BW more than anything), it's surely a problem for trademarking/copyright. Everywhere but in banana republics, China and Eastern Europe at least. See current developments in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_fan_productions#Legal_issues for the comparison with fan series/fan films. Edit: Forgot _ word. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
It's 2 different pair of shoes. Yes it is illegal to distribute (for money or for free) a completely 100% selfmade picture of the millenium falcon for example. It is 100% not illegal to distribute a pen that you can draw a millenium falcon with or instructions how to do it. So yes it is illegal to distribute high quality redraws of a Zergling for example. But it is not illegal to distribute a BroodWar emulator (OpenBW) that uses the legally optained graphics from your BroodWar install. Just like it is not illegal to distribute a SNES Emulator but it is illegal to distribute Super Mario World roms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_console_emulator#Legal_issues So the workaround for high quality graphics in OpenBW is very simple. You need to make a converter application that requires you to have the original graphics which you use as an input and then you convert that to a high quality graphic. If you don't have the legally optained original graphics the converter program is useless and therefor doesn't violate any copyright. This is very similar to converting your CD to an MP3 or (for the older guys :D) using a special vinyl record player to create a file your media player can play. Not illegal to create such a record player or to make a program like AudioGrabber. OpenBW might have a problem with the name because Blizzard has the right for BroodWar so maybe the project just needs to be renamed to FYB (i think you can decypher that yourself :D). P.S. This applies not just to distribution, using copyrighted material for promotion is handled in a similar way but irrelevant for OpenBW. | ||
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Badfan92
5 Posts
On January 24 2018 19:18 Superouman wrote: Blizzard could drown them just in lawyer cost. They can afford dozens/hundreds of thousands of collars of lawyer costs. I highly doubt the OpenBW team can. Blizzard could, but it would cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars. If they had a weak case suing wouldn't be a good business decision. That said... On January 25 2018 00:48 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: You can't just cite legal issues with Star Trek fan productions to compare to OpenBW. It's 2 different pair of shoes. Yes it is illegal to distribute (for money or for free) a completely 100% selfmade picture of the millenium falcon for example. It is 100% not illegal to distribute a pen that you can draw a millenium falcon with or instructions how to do it. So yes it is illegal to distribute high quality redraws of a Zergling for example. But it is not illegal to distribute a BroodWar emulator (OpenBW) that uses the legally optained graphics from your BroodWar install. Just like it is not illegal to distribute a SNES Emulator but it is illegal to distribute Super Mario World roms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_console_emulator#Legal_issues So the workaround for high quality graphics in OpenBW is very simple. You need to make a converter application that requires you to have the original graphics which you use as an input and then you convert that to a high quality graphic. If you don't have the legally optained original graphics the converter program is useless and therefor doesn't violate any copyright. This is very similar to converting your CD to an MP3 or (for the older guys :D) using a special vinyl record player to create a file your media player can play. Not illegal to create such a record player or to make a program like AudioGrabber. What seems common sense to us isn't necessary how the law works or what makes a case weak or strong. | ||
imp42
398 Posts
to answer some of the accumulated questions: On January 12 2018 05:22 dark.matter wrote: Any updates on AI IDE? I'm on a Mac now and can't fool around with BWAPI really, would prefer a simple setup. Several people are using OpenBW to develop their bots now. You have the option to either code in c++ or Java for now. As far as I know there are people developing wrappers for other languages as well. you can find all the resources here: https://github.com/OpenBW It should work fine on a Mac. We're still thinking of dockerizing everything to make it easier to use. Also, BWAPI5 is in the works. OpenBW will be officially supported as a backend alternative to the original game. On January 21 2018 05:21 friendbg wrote: Imp, are you guys still developing the project? If openbw doesn't violate any Blizzard intelectual properties, wouldn't it be possible to reach out to afreeca and replace SCR altogether? It is really frustrating having to "beg" blizzard for permission about every tournament. yes, we're still on it, although we had a strong focus on AI bots. Networking and UI are still missing, so it can't be played by humans yet. Reaching out to afreeca at some point is definitely tempting, but I'm afraid we would have to change the graphics (and sound!) in order to be completely independent of Blizzard and avoid any legal issues. Such a redesign is obviously a large project by itself. Our OpenBW HD came to a complete halt when SC:R was announced. On January 21 2018 06:50 iopq wrote: You also need to recode all of the bugs, you can't just use Blizzard files you use to run openbw because those are the property of Blizzard. It's literally a multi-million dollar project to actually code a new game. The functionality / game mechanics are not an issue. The core engine is 100% compatible with the original game. Every single 'bug' and feature is replicated. The blizzard files are only required for graphics and sound. On January 21 2018 09:20 allhenryros wrote: I’d like OpenBW to finish, if you guys can still work on this. Any crowdfund? It’s time for a community that’s between 20-40 and that have decent jobs to show what desire and hard work can do over greed. Anybody can use their public relations to organize this? crowdfunding would only make sense if tscmoo can guarantee dedicated development time. At the moment he's very busy, but it's certainly a topic we could discuss. Regarding community contributions: I think the code base / repository is ready now to accept contributions from other community members. That is, if somebody wants to code a user interface for OpenBW, it can be done. On January 21 2018 15:44 Golgotha wrote: openbw is a pipe dream. stop thinking that openbw is a realistic solution. it'll be worse than vietnam in terms of being a quagmire. not just in terms of IP legal issues, but replicating the game itself is a gargantuan task. I can see it coming out, in five plus years. There are better battlefields we can fight on. Allocating our already scant resources towards openbw will just lead to painful disappointment. All I can say is bots are already playing on OpenBW and we are looking into migrating from original to OpenBW for tournaments. So we're already half-way there I'd say. On January 21 2018 16:28 friendbg wrote: [...] If i recall correctly the game engine is already completely rewritten by these guys, but i am just speaking from memory. That is why we need imp's word on this. yes, the game engine ("core engine", no networking, no UI) is working fine. It is used both to play bot games as well as replay games in the replay viewer. | ||
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allhenryros
19 Posts
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dicey
142 Posts
On January 25 2018 00:48 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: You can't just cite legal issues with Star Trek fan productions to compare to OpenBW. It's 2 different pair of shoes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_console_emulator#Legal_issues How is this not the same way of linking, on a side-note? People arguing that other people can hurt their general IP [in the future]. Rest are technicalities. On January 25 2018 00:48 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: So yes it is illegal to distribute high quality redraws of a Zergling for example. But it is not illegal to distribute a BroodWar emulator (OpenBW) that uses the legally optained graphics from your BroodWar install. Obviously. The parts, as I argued, you can draw and do however way you please. If the result however looks (to judge&jury at the very least) too similar you will have a problem. Regarding to what I was talking about: * a) monetisation of something obviously done in all likeness of an IP, be it directly as a product, or promoting it via big tournaments *b) is there enough incentive to actually 'go after' it legally. On January 25 2018 00:48 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: Just like it is not illegal to distribute a SNES Emulator but it is illegal to distribute Super Mario World roms. This is very similar to converting your CD to an MP3 or (for the older guys :D) using a special vinyl record player to create a file your media player can play. Yeah, it's not illegal to do a magnet-file resolver or a torrent application, or using it without infringing on IP. Encouraging people to do this especially for one product-lookalike and -- the problematic thing about a big tournament -- doing it collectively is something different all together. Yes you can 'torrent' your own torrent-file of a ripped CD (preferably password protected version of it) but anything else doubtfully is ok. So I'd say, with the risk of voicing the unpopular a) yes, very problematic, and b) possibly the case, if anything than 'emulation' is done: Especially seeing it at Activision|Blizzard IP and that they are publicly traded. In a copyright climate where Nintendo can force videos (of their games being played) out of youtube, or where grumpy cat meme coffee gets 700k plus change in courts, don't live the illusion that, another analogy, if you are able to print a label in a better/another way than brand X's label, you have created something brand X won't basically fight you for, if you are too uppity about it. So might be worth writing a disclaimer into OpenBW if that's not already the case. Edit: brackets | ||
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Piste
6163 Posts
On January 24 2018 23:42 dicey wrote: Because I wasn't replying to that. Probably in servicing/digital products licensing and trademarks (relative to revenue, that is) is probably even stricter than for industrial or physical consumer products. So no doubt it applies to OpenBW if they were to commercialise or get any media attention, as goes with sponsors, from big tournaments (likely easy to argue in court for protecting brand against costly control of IP infringement, or because data can be sold or made money from easily). If it looks like BW and if it plays like BW and if it attracts attention like BW (away from SC2 or official BW more than anything), it's surely a problem for trademarking/copyright. Everywhere but in banana republics, China and Eastern Europe at least. See current developments in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_fan_productions#Legal_issues for the comparison with fan series/fan films. Edit: Forgot _ word. You seem not to be too sure yourself either tho I think you are just guessing like I am.I was under the impression that openBW was going to be a free game, not sold commercially. If the unexpected would happen and openBW project would be finished one day and Afreeca would want to host an openBW tournament instead of StarCraft remastered to avoid fees, it would not even be the game developers that would benefit from it. But for sure that would be counted as commercial use.. The Star Trek case you're referring to is not quite the same as the fan pages used straight out copyrighted film clips, sounds, insignia, or other copyrighted material. And anyways the case is 12 years old, the law might me interpret differently nowdays as the industry has developed quite a lot since 1996. edit: 22 years old At least couple years ago when I used googles/apples stores, I saw a lot of clone games sold that even had extremely resembling graphics compared to the original games and I don't live in the "banana republics". One thing I know, game mechanics cannot be copyrighted even in US. Some mechanics could be patented but those expires with time. So even if a game plays like broodwar, it does not violate any copyright or trademark laws. Straight out copying source code is a different matter. I don't think there there is a clear law on copying characters from other games either. I did some digging and found out this triangle lawsuit where a Chinese game company Lilith gaming sued North Californian uCool that had published pretty much an exact copy of their game. Here is a link to a screenshots of both games: top=Soul Clash from Lilith, below= Heroes Charge from uCool Both games were sold commercially and the Californian clone game was in top 20 grossing app during the time on iOs. I read some of the US ditrict court papers from justia.com and seems that they had even copied the source code, later converting it to different language. Game mechanics were exactly the same. There was even found Lilith games' hidden copyright mark in a pop-up from the source code in one of the versions of the game that uCool copied and distributed. Soon after third party got involved and sued both Lilith games and uCool for copyright infringement as dozens of their game characters resembled night elves, tauren, and pandarenthe from Warcraft / dota. Basically they were 2D-copies of warcraft characters. And yes, the third gaming company involved was of course Blizzard! But not Blizzard alone, but Blizzard and Valve. Apparently these characters were used both in warcraft world and dota 2? The court dismissed Blizzard/Valve's lawsuit as they "failed to state a valid claim for copyright infringement". I don't know if Blizzard and Valve ever fixed their claim to file a new suit. Also if I understood right, the fact that original dota was fanmade also effected the case. The cases were filed at 2015 and I don't know if they're still ongoing. What I know is that US district court denied the Lilith's motion for preliminary injunction back in 2015 and you can still find the game from AppStore and Google play: http://hc.ucool.com/ I'm sure there are still dozens of other clone games as well, I don't use either of those app stores anymore but at least that used to be the case. So what do you think? Maybe the laws are not as straight forward as one might think. PS. Star Trek is awesome | ||
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dicey
142 Posts
On January 25 2018 05:32 Piste wrote:PS. Star Trek is awesome No disagreement there =p Also feel like I'm in a conspiracy to derail this thread, sorry, maybe discuss in another forum? I was talking about the 2015 federal lawsuit in the later part and that they pulled abstract stuff like "likeness" and copyrighted "themes". As Blizzard has a writing staff and the lore likely is copyrighted, the same could be said about the characters, i.e. units in the SC franchise. I guess they settled out of court (which I have personally had to do once too because of alleged IP infringement (WB)), and I'm no expert, no (I can't tell you where to best file a suit to get the highest probabiliy of a copyright-friendly judge, but Activision Blizzard likely does) -- I just hope OpenBW or tournament organisers give the whole thing a good deal of thought. As I said above, it's a lot about incentive to even go into the trouble. But the basis of why I lean the way I do about this is on page 19 of the filing you posted "A video game copyright protects all of the copyrightable elements of that game", let alone the franchise, backstory, maps&editor. Plus the games are extremely dissimilar to Dota&WoW so barely worth the comparison. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
The difference is if the "thing" you distribute is copyrighted or not. So when you use OpenBW and create a tournament and you broadcast it (to make this easier to argue but works anyway). You distribute copyrighted material. The images of the Zergling, eventhough created with the non copyrighted OpenBW, are copyrighted by Blizzard. You can then compare this to the case of "fan productions". To make a fan production you use for example a pen and you draw the "Starship Enterprise". All perfectly fine no problem there, you used a legal tool (pen) and changed how you see the paper by putting paint on it. No problem selling the pen, so problem seeing a copyrighted image. The difference again is when you distribute this drawing of the "Starship Enterprise". The point is that you can only be a sink for copyrighted material and not a source. So to get back to a potential tournament with OpenBW. Yes you can do this, so long as every participant brings his own copy of BroodWar to play. Because again, the difference is the distribution of copyrighted material. If you let others play your copy of BroodWar you were the source and not the sink of it. Doesn't matter if it's for money or not. Now BroodWar is a special case, because it was sold allowing you to make "spawn installs". This was a selling point way back in the days before fucking lootboxes. It means you can buy 1 copy of StarCraft and install it on 8 computers to play in a LAN. StarCraft was the most copied game back in the day because it had absolutely no copy protection on the disk. Mind you, this is not part of the "spawn install" and violated Blizzards copyright. But it definitely helped StarCrafts popularity a lot. So technically you could make a case to allow tournaments where not every player has to have a copy. But this depends on the license comming with the patch you play on. I don't know when they removed spawn install. So if Blizzard wants to shut down OpenBW I gladly host it from one of my servers because where I'm from this most definitely isn't a violation of copyright. As always, laws change over time and soon there will be a change where I'm from. This change wants to crack down harder on copyright violations (called differently) and ensures that the sink of the whole transaction (you the enduser) is excluded. So if you're the enduser of copyrighted material you're not doing anything illegal. This can be watching a movie on some sketchy stream page or watching a stream of an OpenBW tournament. It's a clear distinction between source and sink that defines copyright law in most of europe. | ||
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mca64__________
Poland6 Posts
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