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On January 24 2015 08:42 Falling wrote:
tbh, I'm not really sure what this latest argument is about. The orginal quote was responding to a perceived imbalance for Protoss. While a specific piece of evidence may be in question, it seems both nina and Gecko think there is no true racial imbalance in SCBW.
Well, Gecko always has to be "right". Actually, the initial posting of the link was wrong as evidence, because clearly if you look at all the tours from a purely racial-balance perspective, then you would see a ton of Zerg wins, and as soon I made the point that the numbers were skewed by Sziky and Trutacz (I thought Scan would have more of an impact on the list, but surprisingly not so), it turned into his usual semantics crusade to convince... someone... that I'm using some faulty logic.
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You can't observe anything about the balance from recent tournament results except in the most consistent lopsides. People who are somewhat decent at a few parts of the game are the vast minority these days, even in Korea.
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On January 24 2015 08:51 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2015 08:42 Falling wrote:
tbh, I'm not really sure what this latest argument is about. The orginal quote was responding to a perceived imbalance for Protoss. While a specific piece of evidence may be in question, it seems both nina and Gecko think there is no true racial imbalance in SCBW. Well, Gecko always has to be "right".
You replied to something utterly stupid in an equally stupid way. Half of what you wrote there is half-assed and has questionable sources at best, all pressed in vague formulations. My guess, you tried to circumvent a ban by being "funny". Aside from that, people must not be wrong on the internet, especially when either using LP or Defiler as source. Guilty as charged.
On January 24 2015 08:32 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2015 08:14 GeckoXp wrote:On January 24 2015 07:30 ninazerg wrote:On January 24 2015 07:14 GeckoXp wrote:On January 24 2015 07:09 ninazerg wrote:On January 24 2015 03:18 GeckoXp wrote:On January 23 2015 11:30 ninazerg wrote:On January 23 2015 09:31 GeckoXp wrote:On January 22 2015 14:41 ninazerg wrote:Protoss doesn't struggle in individual tournaments. Look through the defiler tournaments: http://defiler.ru/tourney/ and tell me which race is dramatically favored. first argument I read, first thing you basically just left here and hoped nobody would check I assume. Zerg is horribly favoured in there and it's not really a secret. The Top 10 basically features only Zerg and Terran. Protoss comes in at rank 14-16. Yet, there's Lancerx, who basically only one won gold in an international (Defiler) tournament. Then it's Dewalt (argueably the best PvZ foreign player in this time) and Tama next. One P isn't in, cause hack. Whaaaat. I mean it's pretty common knowledge that the past three or four years in foreign bw were ruled by Zerg. It's not argument in favour of balance changes or anything, but... you're just being silly here and you probably knew while typing. I think the results are kind of skewed because Sziky and Scan have won so many tours. I really don't think their wins are a matter of imbalance, but just shows how talented they are. But I meant all the tours on the list, not just the main ones. And it still doesn't change that the next 10 players after them do not play Protoss as well and are mostly Zerg. It doesn't change the fact that you tried to give data as proof for something that isn't anywhere close to what you tried to say. List starts from Defiler Tour #5, includes Defi tours, KidCa tours, gaz tours, and other minor tournaments. Winners, by race: Zerg - 86 Protoss - 44 Terran - 59 Average: 63 per race Zerg wins without Sziky and Trutacz: 50 Zerg wins without Sziky: 61 Average wins-per-race without Sziky: 51 Zerg win% with Sziky/Trutacz: 44% Protoss win% with Sziky/Trutacz: 24% Terran win% with Sziky/Trutacz: 32% Zerg win% without Sziky/Trutacz: 33% Protoss win% without Sziky/Trutacz: 29% Terran win% without Sziky/Trutacz: 38% Individual wins: Sziky: 25 Trutacz: 11 Scan: 10 eonzerg: 9 Gargoyle: 8 LancerX: 4 spx: 4 dewalt-: 3 Bakuryu: 2 Jumper: 2 TechnicS: 2 And what's the point now, you basically take away players without justification - or because they are "more talented" - to make your point? It's a fact that foreign BW has a Zerg problem. Actually, we also have a Terran problem according to your logic, because we'd have to erase Gargoyle (won too much), Heme (too talented) and we'd all be like shieeet. Well, since you've told me on many, many occasions how much you 'hate' Zerg, I find it rather unsurprising that you would take this position. All I'm showing here is that percentages are skewed in favor of Zerg because of a couple of players. If there were 10 tours, and 6 of them were won by Zerg, and each was a different individual player, I would agree with you, but unfortunately for you, this is not the case. Yes, I do loathe playing Zerg and I could puke every time I see Zerglings running through a wall on a map I rarely play, 'cause it feels like wasted time. <insert more examples that are annoying, e.g. random Hydra busts you missed to scout, cause Probe said no, I be seing this wall now and then scout inside of Zergling stomach hehehe>. Yet, I do not claim the game is imbalanced. My statement was: foreign Zerg win more. As to why, no idea. Probably it all boils down to some unobserved things, e.g. Zerg being able to play more effectively in the same time span than Protoss or Protoss more than Terran (which would explain why there are less top level Terrans than Toss in return). Just a thought, no proof, no indication. To elaborate, play ten ZvZs and try to play ten TvTs, then tell me who can train more with a limited amount of time outside of a professional scene. That doesn't account for why Protoss was domianting the foreign scene in 2007 - 2010 My hypothesis is that the current state of the game favours Zerg at our skill level, and in the past, the state of the game favoured Protoss at the current foreign skill level.
Maybe. My observation was just that "new-ish" Zerg players tend to advance fast from 0 to somewhat good in no time, quickly followed by Protoss and Terran a long way behind. However, Zerg and Protoss start to whine early on in their career, once they realize there's more to late game than just having an advantage from the early stages, whereas Terrans suffer in silence and later out of a sudden start to play really well.
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Not sure what's up with all the insults suddenly being hurled in this thread. Or why the mods aren't doing more. 
Civil up, ppl. Differentiate yourself from the mindless internet herd by actually being reasonable (because, wow, isn't internet name-calling just soooo cutting-edge and original  ).
A nice side benefit is that others will probably respect what you have to say more, rather than less.
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Does BW resurrection mean TL circa 2004 moderation standards resurrection?
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The only thing I would like to see changed is the gas mining when the geyser is to the right of or below the CC/Nex/Hatch, it should mine at the same rate as when it's above or to the left.
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On January 25 2015 08:19 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Does BW resurrection mean TL circa 2004 moderation standards resurrection? Perhaps we should start rage-posting just to fit in? lol. 
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Wouldn't mind seeing Guardians cost a bit less gas, they'd probably get used more then.
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Well, if you're interested in balance and its history, here's an interesting email I ran across that show the changes they were still doing in very late beta for BW/1.04 patch.
Many of these made it in, some didn't, but it shows what they were trying.
作者: Stalker (S．talk．er) 看板: Blizzard
標題: 嗚哇....Brood War 果然是 Blizzard 的年度大作....
時間: Sun Oct 25 11:22:16 1998
為什麼這麼說呢? 因為你將發現這會和 Star Craft 有完全不同的感覺....
話先說在前頭. 這是 "今天" 的 beta test 的 patch , 並不代表將來的正
式版會這樣....
Subject: Changes in Todays Brood War Beta Patch
From: GFraizer(Shlonglor) (Blizzard)
Host: Blizzard Entertainment
Date: Sat Oct 24 18:35:16
Medic
*Optic Flare - Casting cost to 75 mana
*Move all researchable spells to the Academy
*Should be able to heal all organic ground units (includes Zerg and
Protoss)
Lurker
* Damage type to Concussive
*Attack range to 6
*Attack animation should be twice as fast
*Should only do damage to a unit once per attack (currently bigger
units get multiple hits)
*Should flee from attacker when not burrowed
//第一個非 Terran 的單位有 concussive type damage?
Devourer
*Corrosive Venom (spores) should also affect the target
*Change attack to the following:
*25 Damage, 50 Cooldown, Mass Explosion Damage type, +3 Bonus
Corsair
*Research Cost of Disruption Web to 200min, 200gas
Dark Archon
*Maelstrom duration should be approx. 10 seconds (twice as long as
current)
*Mind Control should transfer the expansion unit technology
//新單位我不是 beta tester, 所以不與置評....
CHANGE TO EXISTING STARCRAFT UNITS
Parasite - Casting cost to 75, Casting range to 12
//可憐的 queen, 完全想不出調弱的原因, 尤其是有 medic
Arbiter - cost to 100min, 350gas.
Should not respond to a call for help from other units
//看看以後會不會有比較多的人用吧
Scout - Shields to 100, hit points to 150
//我也猜是為了平衡 Terran 的valkyrie
Carrier -
Interceptor shields to 40, hit points to 40
Capacity upgrade cost to 100min, 100gas
Carrier attack range to 9
//大家都越打越遠了, 升級變便宜, 小飛機本來就沒人在打吧....
Dragoon -
Build time should be same as Zealot,
Cost to 125min, 50gas
//對我沒差, 我不生 dragoon 是因為 gas, 對空我寧願用 cannon 及 scout
Defiler - Cost to 50min, 150gas
//這大概是唯一對 Zerg 的好消息吧 (對, 後面還是壞消息)
Science Vessel -
Sight to 11,
Cost to 50min, 200gas
Acceleration should be much faster
//咳咳, 加上 range 9 的對空, seige tank 的對地....
Irradiate - 300 damage maximum, should also deal this damage twice as fast
Wraith - Cost to 150min, 100gas
//看來不需要 Rich Hunter 就可以玩 wraith sea 了
Nuke - Build time to half
Sunken Colony - Damage type to Normal, Damage to 35
//三族現在都有龜起來的本錢了
Hatchery - Cost to 400min
//....
Goliath - Ground damage to 12
//無敵鐵金剛, 無敵鐵金剛 (開始唱起歌了)
Archon - Acceleration much faster
Zergling Adrenal Glands -
Increased cost to 200min, 200gas
Increased power of upgrade
//FYI: 這是 zergling 第二個升級選項, 要三級 Hive 才能生的那個, 也是大
家常常忘記升的那個
--------------------------------
The question is then what do these changes mean to existing Starcraft
and 1.04. The answer will be given when it's available.
//嗚, 在資料片出來之前還會有個 1.04 版?
Next, non Brood War Beta Teters, please don't flip out over these
changes, because this is the Brood War Beta, we will have a chance to
see if things work or do not work.
GFraizer(Shlonglor)
Web Designer
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg.
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On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg.
So you are a fan of the stove.. Interesting
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On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg.
Wha? Could you flesh that out a bit more?
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
On February 13 2015 23:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg. Wha? Could you flesh that out a bit more?
Scouts could be a staple in PvT if they could do bonus damage against mech units (Tanks/Goliaths/BCs). Against zerg it would do bonus dmg vs Ultras and Guardians.
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Well scouts do do a lot in PvT as they prevent BC shenanigans.
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On February 13 2015 23:46 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 23:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg. Wha? Could you flesh that out a bit more? Scouts could be a staple in PvT if they could do bonus damage against mech units (Tanks/Goliaths/BCs). Against zerg it would do bonus dmg vs Ultras and Guardians.
But +6? Wow. I'd be happy if Scout ground dmg ever got upped to 10.
Bliz nerf'd Scout and Wraith ground attack for BW and 1.04 just for being one-third stronger than it currently is (better cooldown back then). I wonder if that was a mistake, since BW brought in some additional tools that could help better deal with massed Wraiths/Scouts than SC vanilla had ('sairs, valks, charon boosters).
But if 1/3 stronger makes Bliz nerf, what would +6 dmg to ground attack do?
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
On February 14 2015 00:13 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 23:46 BisuDagger wrote:On February 13 2015 23:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg. Wha? Could you flesh that out a bit more? Scouts could be a staple in PvT if they could do bonus damage against mech units (Tanks/Goliaths/BCs). Against zerg it would do bonus dmg vs Ultras and Guardians. But +6? Wow. I'd be happy if Scout ground dmg ever got upped to 10. Bliz nerf'd Scout and Wraith ground attack for BW and 1.04 just for being one-third stronger than it currently is (better cooldown back then). I wonder if that was a mistake, since BW brought in things that could better deal with massed Wraiths/Scouts than SC vanilla had ('sairs, valks, charon boosters). But if 1/3 stronger makes Bliz nerf, what would +6 dmg to ground attack do?
+6 was just a number thrown out there. What should the number be then? Do you agree it should counter/be able to combat the units mentioned at least?
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On February 14 2015 00:16 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 00:13 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 13 2015 23:46 BisuDagger wrote:On February 13 2015 23:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg. Wha? Could you flesh that out a bit more? Scouts could be a staple in PvT if they could do bonus damage against mech units (Tanks/Goliaths/BCs). Against zerg it would do bonus dmg vs Ultras and Guardians. But +6? Wow. I'd be happy if Scout ground dmg ever got upped to 10. Bliz nerf'd Scout and Wraith ground attack for BW and 1.04 just for being one-third stronger than it currently is (better cooldown back then). I wonder if that was a mistake, since BW brought in things that could better deal with massed Wraiths/Scouts than SC vanilla had ('sairs, valks, charon boosters). But if 1/3 stronger makes Bliz nerf, what would +6 dmg to ground attack do? +6 was just a number thrown out there. What should the number be then? Do you agree it should counter/be able to combat the units mentioned at least?
Well, of the units you mention, I think Scouts already do pretty well against BCs and Guardians. A Scout will shoot down a Guardian almost three times faster than a Corsair can, for instance, and will beat BCs cost-efficiently if all the BCs don't have charged Yamato Cannons, lol. 
Versus tanks, gols and ultras, I don't see tanks or gols as being that special a deal, they only have 1 armor and good-but-not-great amounts of hp. Ultras, yeah, they're a b*tch, really high armor and really high hp, bad for low dmg attacks to deal with. But do Scouts and/or Wraiths have to be what takes them down, or are there other better tools for the job?
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
On February 14 2015 00:28 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 00:16 BisuDagger wrote:On February 14 2015 00:13 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 13 2015 23:46 BisuDagger wrote:On February 13 2015 23:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg. Wha? Could you flesh that out a bit more? Scouts could be a staple in PvT if they could do bonus damage against mech units (Tanks/Goliaths/BCs). Against zerg it would do bonus dmg vs Ultras and Guardians. But +6? Wow. I'd be happy if Scout ground dmg ever got upped to 10. Bliz nerf'd Scout and Wraith ground attack for BW and 1.04 just for being one-third stronger than it currently is (better cooldown back then). I wonder if that was a mistake, since BW brought in things that could better deal with massed Wraiths/Scouts than SC vanilla had ('sairs, valks, charon boosters). But if 1/3 stronger makes Bliz nerf, what would +6 dmg to ground attack do? +6 was just a number thrown out there. What should the number be then? Do you agree it should counter/be able to combat the units mentioned at least? Well, of the units you mention, I think Scouts already do pretty well against BCs and Guardians. A Scout will shoot down a Guardian almost three times faster than a Corsair can, for instance, and will beat BCs cost-efficiently if all the BCs don't have charged Yamato Cannons, lol. Versus tanks, gols and ultras, I don't see tanks or gols as being that special a deal, they only have 1 armor and good-but-not-great amounts of hp. Ultras, yeah, they're a b*tch, really high armor and really high hp, bad for low dmg attacks to deal with. But do Scouts and/or Wraiths have to be what takes them down, or are there other better tools for the job?
Currently there are better tools. What I want from this discussion is to discover a way to determine what role scouts can fill with a patch. If scouts can take down tanks quicker and more cost effectively it'd help the Stargate/Gateway late game more. Of course, that might make protoss to OP. In PvZ I don't know what role they could fill that sairs don't already fill.
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On February 14 2015 00:53 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 00:28 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 14 2015 00:16 BisuDagger wrote:On February 14 2015 00:13 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 13 2015 23:46 BisuDagger wrote:On February 13 2015 23:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg. Wha? Could you flesh that out a bit more? Scouts could be a staple in PvT if they could do bonus damage against mech units (Tanks/Goliaths/BCs). Against zerg it would do bonus dmg vs Ultras and Guardians. But +6? Wow. I'd be happy if Scout ground dmg ever got upped to 10. Bliz nerf'd Scout and Wraith ground attack for BW and 1.04 just for being one-third stronger than it currently is (better cooldown back then). I wonder if that was a mistake, since BW brought in things that could better deal with massed Wraiths/Scouts than SC vanilla had ('sairs, valks, charon boosters). But if 1/3 stronger makes Bliz nerf, what would +6 dmg to ground attack do? +6 was just a number thrown out there. What should the number be then? Do you agree it should counter/be able to combat the units mentioned at least? Well, of the units you mention, I think Scouts already do pretty well against BCs and Guardians. A Scout will shoot down a Guardian almost three times faster than a Corsair can, for instance, and will beat BCs cost-efficiently if all the BCs don't have charged Yamato Cannons, lol. Versus tanks, gols and ultras, I don't see tanks or gols as being that special a deal, they only have 1 armor and good-but-not-great amounts of hp. Ultras, yeah, they're a b*tch, really high armor and really high hp, bad for low dmg attacks to deal with. But do Scouts and/or Wraiths have to be what takes them down, or are there other better tools for the job? Currently there are better tools. What I want from this discussion is to discover a way to determine what role scouts can fill with a patch. If scouts can take down tanks quicker and more cost effectively it'd help the Stargate/Gateway late game more. Of course, that might make protoss to OP. In PvZ I don't know what role they could fill that sairs don't already fill.
Well, when making changes, IMO the first thing you have to think about, as you alluded to, is "Will this break the game?". Obviously anything very OP farks everything else up, so you have to know what the limits are before anything else.
WIth scouts, for instance, they seem fine air-to-air, and do everything they're supposed to do there. It's the ground attack that's the prob. But you have to be careful in upping it, Bliz obviously nerfed it for a reason (even if they did go too far). The reason they nerfed seems to be mobility.
IIRC, Bliz stated reasoning along the below lines on their forums when the 1.04 patch and BW came out, when ppl started complaining angrily about the scout and wraith ATG nerfs.
Specifically, Bliz cited mobility. As in, if you've gone heavy scout or wraith, then all your air-to-ground is concentrated in one mob; meanwhile, all of your opponent's anti-air (if he didn't go heavy air like you did) is split up between his main, his expansions, and his army. Your superior mobility allows you to "hit him where he ain't", you get to choose where to engage, and if he doesn't have 'all bases covered', he's in trouble. You attack wherever, but he has to defend everywhere.
Sure, antiair ground units are usually pretty cost-effective in their GTA role. But even if antiair ground can beat two or three times its cost in air units, that still isn't so good, because you'll routinely have your antiair split between 3-5 bases plus an army in the field. You're cost-efficient, but still not cost-efficient enough... in other words, it doesn't take much of an improvement to make mobs of scouts and wraiths (or mutas for that matter) OP, because of the mobility.
Given that, a good starting point would seem to be something like upping ATG damage to 10 or 11 for scouts/wraiths, which brings you back to near the same (10) or the same (11) damage per second you had pre-nerf. It's probably better to improve damage than improve cooldown, because the former works a bit better against armored targets if you do the math.
With wraiths, you might even change their ATG attack to a split attack as well, limiting their improvement against armored ground units, since wraiths are already fairly effective in TvT.
Let's not also forget things like patrol micro and air unit stacking, which improve air unit 'mobs' effectiveness, and which probably weren't foreseen by the designers when they were making 1.04 and BW (I certainly don't remember them being in use by the time of 1.04's and BW's release).
So, sadly, I'm not sure scouts can ever be 'tank-killers' to the level you apparently envision without breaking the game. Though with mild up's they could probably be decently effective in doing that, with assistance from things like stasis cutting down the active goliath count, even if the T player concentrates much of his antiair with his army/push. Or failing that, they could backstab mineral lines.
In response to your PvZ comment, I think scouts, if their ATG were improved, could certainly have a role there. They could harass in ways that corsairs can't, since sairs obviously don't have ATG, and they actually shoot down overlords quite a bit faster than sairs too.
On the downside, scouts build times are horrendous yet probably can't be improved much without causing problems, and they aren't fully effective units 'til they get speed upgrade researched (a research which probably could be faster/cheaper).
That's my take on it, could be wrong. Also don't know if it's what you wanted to hear. Balance is complex and frustrating, I really respect game designers, getting it right is kinda like banging your head against the wall 'til it's all good or 'til you brain-bleed out from a major concussion, whichever comes first.
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Scouts do do well vs guardians, devourers, bcs, but how often do u see bcs in tvp?
I've personally met them only thrice, the first time was on an island (!) map vs some peruvian (!!). The second time was vs an opponent who haven't played bw for about 6 years, and the third time was in a very ridiculous non-ladder game, so we both did some crazy things.
And in pro-games? Were there ever cases of going bcs in tvp?
And why do u want to use scouts as atg unit, if they were designed as capital ship hunters? ie they are created to dominate in air, not on ground? IMO all they need is speed upgrade already researched, and that's it
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EPT
