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On February 14 2015 20:10 GreenWillow wrote:
Scouts do do well vs guardians, devourers, bcs, but how often do u see bcs in tvp?
I've personally met them only thrice, the first time was on an island (!) map vs some peruvian (!!). The second time was vs an opponent who haven't played bw for about 6 years, and the third time was in a very ridiculous non-ladder game, so we both did some crazy things.
And in pro-games? Were there ever cases of going bcs in tvp?
And why do u want to use scouts as atg unit, if they were designed as capital ship hunters? ie they are created to dominate in air, not on ground? IMO all they need is speed upgrade already researched, and that's it
Very little BC usage in TvP is another issue IMO, and it contributes to scouts not getting used much. I mean, you see carriers a fair amount in TvP, but BCs almost never, as you say. Why one cap ship but not the other? Because P has a number of good counters, and BCs don't seem to wreak as much havoc vs ground as carriers do (compare damage per second between the two).
Far as wanting scouts to be useful as an ATG unit, well, yeah. Why do you think they have an ATG attack then? For show? ATG is mentioned because its a considerable part of the reason why they don't get used... scouts' air attack is already good, ATG isn't. But air units that are only effective vs air generally tend not to have that big a role, except to shoot down air units that *are* good against ground (or overlords, and sairs are adequate enough to do that already).
Better ATG and more BC usage would both be helpful to seeing scouts more often.
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tbh i dont give a fuck about scouts. The problems with bw are that ZvZ is so linear and that hydra busts keep killing progamers to this day (ZvP) if you know the problem you know where to pay attention, not that is gonna happen but thats where id start. I think there may be some other minor thing that im forgetting but those as a spectator are the most saddening.
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On February 14 2015 20:21 sertas wrote:
tbh i dont give a fuck about scouts. The problems with bw are that ZvZ is so linear and that hydra busts keep killing progamers to this day (ZvP) if you know the problem you know where to pay attention, not that is gonna happen but thats where id start. I think there may be some other minor thing that im forgetting but those as a spectator are the most saddening.
It's not an either-or, zero-sum thing. Seeing scouts get fixed doesn't necessarily keep the issues you cite from being fixed, in some hypothetical alternate dimension where Bliz releases a '20th Anniversary Brood War' with a balance patch (which probably has about the same odds of happening as being hit by lightning and mauled by a grizzly bear in the same day  ).
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Bisutopia19256 Posts
On February 14 2015 20:21 sertas wrote:
tbh i dont give a fuck about scouts. The problems with bw are that ZvZ is so linear and that hydra busts keep killing progamers to this day (ZvP) if you know the problem you know where to pay attention, not that is gonna happen but thats where id start. I think there may be some other minor thing that im forgetting but those as a spectator are the most saddening.
Make spores do bonus damage to bio. That's what blizzard did in SC2 to eliminate muta battles.
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Arbiters have their 10 dmg, but no one wants to increase it simply becuz arbiters aren't attacking units (generally)
One guy once shared his thoughts that this "damage" was made intentedly. Say, when a turret is shooting a shuttle, it flies away, no matter, being controlled or not. When a turret is shooting an arbiter, he begins to attack that turret, and, if not manually taken away, dies. MB the same thing with scouts. But I have another proof that scouts cannot be used as mutas or wraiths can be.
Take a look at the wraiths.
The only mobile detection both z and p have are overlords and observers respectively. Both can be shot by the cloaked wraithes, so, if no storm-ensnare-plague availible, z and p have to retreat to static detection (spores and cannons). I am pretty bad at expressing my thoughts, but hope u've got the idea.
Then mutalisks. They are exremely effective both on battlefield and in harassment becuz of their wyrm blade, which hits not 1, but 3 units at the same time.
And now — scouts. No cloaking, no "splash" damage. No single thing. + they are initially slow. They simply were not designed for air to ground battles.
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Also, concerning battlecruisers. Just my thoughts, but probably they aren't seen in tvp becuz of what modern maps are. One needs to exploit highground, unpassable terrain, other map peculiarities in order to use bcs to a great effect. Due to their slow movemnt speed they are very vulnerable to storm and to dragoons. And when I mentioned modern maps, I generally meant that F+ Show Spoiler + Spirit, which is flat and boring.
Again, only imo
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On February 14 2015 21:02 GreenWillow wrote:
And now — scouts. No cloaking, no "splash" damage. No single thing. + they are initially slow. They simply were not designed for air to ground battles.
But they have tons of shield and hit points, i.e. can hang in against ground fire much longer than wraiths and mutas can. And with the speed upgrade they're just as fast as wraiths and mutas. Ironically, it's probably the potential strength of scouts (before the nerf, anyway) that made Bliz hold them back a bit with the need for said speed upgrade.
And if scouts were not designed for at least some ATG usage, Bliz probably would've stripped out their ATG attack, or not given it one in the first place.
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Well, there was a game where p made lots of static defence + reavers, meanwhile using scouts to a great effect (killing drones and overlords). But that's only vs zerg, and this is not the easiest way to win a game.
What I mean is that spores are relatively expensive and weak, comparing to cannons and turrets. Especially turrets, which are cheap and deadly. These prevent scout harassment.
Cannot imagine any other usage of scout's atg attack but that one above + the stove.
Also, 1 scout is 275-125. For example, 1 ht and 1 shuttle cost 250-150.
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On January 21 2015 07:45 [[Starlight]] wrote:That's impossible. Best you can realistically say is it's 'balanced enough'.
i think bw is balanced enough , close prefection and it depends too much of maps and THE PLAYER, bw doesnt need to be balanced , i hope valve creates BW2 like dota2 keeping gameplay and units , maybe a 4th race ??
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On February 14 2015 21:49 GreenWillow wrote:
What I mean is that spores are relatively expensive and weak, comparing to cannons and turrets.
Especially turrets, which are cheap and deadly. These prevent scout harassment.
Spores aren't that weak... have 400hp, double what cannons and turrets have. They also have a fast rate of fire and do Normal damage.
Their drawback is that they do take longer to kill things than an equivalent cost in turrets, but they are harder to take out than turrets. Which is why you see pros 'triple up' on turrets in various locations... lone turrets just get destroyed before they can do anything.
Cannot imagine any other usage of scout's atg attack but that one above + the stove.
Which is why scouts' ATG should be better.
Also, 1 scout is 275-125. For example, 1 ht and 1 shuttle cost 250-150.
Plus another 200-200 for storm research. Scouts do need/want speed upgrade, but so do shuttles. Storm drops are awesome, but mana in midgame is a limited resource, while aerial harassment can keep on going and going, assuming it's effective. For instance, I think Z would still do muta harass even if they somehow in some alternate universe had high templars to do storm drops with (though yeah, they'd probably use both).
ZanCo: i think bw is balanced enough , close prefection and it depends too much of maps and THE PLAYER, bw doesnt need to be balanced , i hope valve creates BW2 like dota2 keeping gameplay and units , maybe a 4th race ??
People said BW is 'balanced enough' after every balance patch, yet Bliz still kept on changing/improving/refining the game.
Do like the idea of a BW2, though a 4th race might be a balance nightmare. Heck, SC2 has been kind of a balance nightmare, even with just 3 races.
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SC2 is balanced enough. The problem is that it's just not fun or interesting.
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On February 14 2015 20:58 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 20:21 sertas wrote:
tbh i dont give a fuck about scouts. The problems with bw are that ZvZ is so linear and that hydra busts keep killing progamers to this day (ZvP) if you know the problem you know where to pay attention, not that is gonna happen but thats where id start. I think there may be some other minor thing that im forgetting but those as a spectator are the most saddening. Make spores do bonus damage to bio. That's what blizzard did in SC2 to eliminate muta battles.
A mac more BW-esque solution would be to make it do bonus to small units. I believe the only small air units are interceptors, mutations and scourge.
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Mutations? You mean mutas, they are classified as small units (despite how they look).
Though I dislike this inelegant and unintuitive "bonus DMG to x" solution from sc2.
Better would be to bump the damage significantly and classify it as concussive damage. Now that's the BW way.
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On February 15 2015 08:58 vOdToasT wrote:
SC2 is balanced enough. The problem is that it's just not fun or interesting.
Maybe now it's good enough (though some still say no), after years and years and umpteen patches. The balance part that is, not the fun or interesting part, you are very right about that.
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I'm glad Blizzard doesn't listen to people calling for BW balance changes :D. ZvZ is great imo... always enjoyed it's change of pace. ZvP hydra busts are kind of ridiculous I agree though :0
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On February 15 2015 15:30 Vasoline73 wrote:
I'm glad Blizzard doesn't listen to people calling for BW balance changes :D.
Sure. That's why there were four balance patches and over 100 balance changes to the game. 
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On February 15 2015 10:25 Probemicro wrote:
Mutations? You mean mutas, they are classified as small units (despite how they look).
Though I dislike this inelegant and unintuitive "bonus DMG to x" solution from sc2.
Better would be to bump the damage significantly and classify it as concussive damage. Now that's the BW way.
My autocorrect doesn't know how to play starcraft.
The problem with concussive is that while it does full damage to small units, it does quarter damage to large. Compare this with explosive damage which does half damage to small and full to large. Thankfully there are no medium air units iirc but this still leaves us with a problem if we use concussion damage. Spores that would do, say 20 damage to mutas instead of the current 15 would do 5 damage to wraiths if a Terran goes 2port wraith. The brute force solution would be to just make spores ridiculously overpowered against scourge and mutas but I don't think that would be ideal.
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On February 15 2015 16:44 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 10:25 Probemicro wrote:
Mutations? You mean mutas, they are classified as small units (despite how they look).
Though I dislike this inelegant and unintuitive "bonus DMG to x" solution from sc2.
Better would be to bump the damage significantly and classify it as concussive damage. Now that's the BW way. My autocorrect doesn't know how to play starcraft. The problem with concussive is that while it does full damage to small units, it does quarter damage to large. Compare this with explosive damage which does half damage to small and full to large. Thankfully there are no medium air units iirc but this still leaves us with a problem if we use concussion damage. Spores that would do, say 20 damage to mutas instead of the current 15 would do 5 damage to wraiths if a Terran goes 2port wraith. The brute force solution would be to just make spores ridiculously overpowered against scourge and mutas but I don't think that would be ideal.
fyi corsairs and queens are medium. agree with the rest of your post.
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Norway28682 Posts
On February 13 2015 23:20 BisuDagger wrote:
How would people feel about scouts getting a bonus to armored units? Let's say +6 dmg.
assuming you mean large;)
anyway, on the scout vs ground units debate.. scouts had their air to ground attack nerfed pretty hard during some early patch, 1.02 or something? I don't actually think they changed the damage, just the cooldown, but well, until they did, mass scout was a dominant strategy. I recall playing a game (this is like, summer 1998 lol) where me and my opponent had split a map in half, so economy was the same for both players, I was terran, he was protoss.. my choice of units? turrets and goliaths. his choice of unit? scouts. And he destroyed me! completely! And I was overall a better player than him - that was the only time I ever lost against him! granted this was before goliath range and valkyries, but still. scouts with slightly faster air to ground attack were so good that they, for cost, destroyed pure turret+goliath.
Now the game has changed so much that it wouldn't look the same, but buffing scouts ATG attack in any significant way could really fuck with pvt.. If you've ever played a free for all and you've met some protoss jerk who microes well and managed to amass 24 3 3 3 speed scouts, you'll know what I mean, because fighting against that is absolutely terrible even when they just have 8 base attack. make it 14, it'll be craazy.
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On February 15 2015 16:44 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 10:25 Probemicro wrote:
Mutations? You mean mutas, they are classified as small units (despite how they look).
Though I dislike this inelegant and unintuitive "bonus DMG to x" solution from sc2.
Better would be to bump the damage significantly and classify it as concussive damage. Now that's the BW way. My autocorrect doesn't know how to play starcraft. The problem with concussive is that while it does full damage to small units, it does quarter damage to large. Compare this with explosive damage which does half damage to small and full to large. Thankfully there are no medium air units iirc but this still leaves us with a problem if we use concussion damage. Spores that would do, say 20 damage to mutas instead of the current 15 would do 5 damage to wraiths if a Terran goes 2port wraith. The brute force solution would be to just make spores ridiculously overpowered against scourge and mutas but I don't think that would be ideal.
btw the orignal post says that zvz is linear and boring which i dont really agree. sure its kinda onedimensional, but at least ling/muta dogfights require plenty of control and game sense, and with the scarcity of larvae can really decide who knows to allocate resource better.
imo its better than sc2 zvz well you just watch 2 sets of roaches shooting at each until one becomes larger than the other and snowball from there.(only good thing is ling/bane warfare). no BW magic box and no scourges means sc2 mutas are pretty boring anyway, you jsut mass them up and hit stuff or run if too many spores, no depth to it whatsoever.
anyway i was just suggesting stuff more in the spirit of the original BW classification rather resorting to D.Kim M.D style of brute force inelegant balancing which would look off-putting compared to the rest of the numbers ingame. this thread is meaningless in the long run since blizz wont touch BW and nobody is going to seriously hold the balance lessons of BW to heart and just continue proposing changes in their newly created RTS just for fun sake before allowing meta to settle down for a long period of time.
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EPT
