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[Article] Best Zergs to never win a major.

Forum Index > BW General
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GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51449 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-17 12:24:22
January 13 2015 10:26 GMT
#1
If you haven't read the previous piece on Terrans and the mindset behind these articles, check it out here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/471304-article-best-terrans-to-never-win-a-major

I'd like to apologise for the lateness of this piece, as I've been away on holiday and doing other stuff. However, I've finally found the time to work on the expected complimentary piece. Let's begin...




Honorable Mentions. (Z)Kwanro and (Z)JJu
[image loading][image loading]

I've decided to add a couple of honorable mentions at the start of my article because I feel these two players merit some sort of discussion.

Kwanro was the poster boy for Zergs that embellished the aggressive play style in which Jaedong helped pioneer after the sAviOr/GoRush management era of 2005-2006. While his aggressive play style was most entertaining and caught many players off-guard (i.e. vs Iris in the Avalon MSL semi-final) through out his career, his major flaw was his inability to play a well structured macro game. His game sense also at times would fail him (i.e. losing with a 5 pool against Calm's 12 hatchery in the Avalon MSL final). I was deliberating whether to put Kwanro or YellOw[ArnC] in here - and while YarnC was the biggest (ab)user of the infamous 2 hatchery muta build vs T - propelling his win-rate up to a respectable number, his involvement in the match fixing scandal soured his reputation and as such didn't merit a spot here.

Kwanro continues to play Brood War on the amateur circuit after having completed his military service.

As for JJu, his career is very interesting to look back on. I remember his time in SouL as a mediocre Zerg that I really never paid attention to - as he was shadowed by the other top Zergs at the time such as GoRush, July and Yellow (and even on his own team by Chojja and TheWind). However, once he transferred over to Samsung KHAN, he helped bring one of the punching bags of Proleague (anyone remember the old-school Khan schoolboy look?) into the power house team that we know today. His unpredictable play style made sure that each opponent he played expect a gamut of surprises. Because of his unique play style (he made queens cool before ZerO) and interesting personality, JJu merits a place as an honorable mention.
I shall conclude this part by posting a quote on JJu from former Korean translator FireBlast.
+ Show Spoiler +
Back then, around about Gilette the three big in form zerg trio were July Gorush and Jju.

Jju is my all time favourite Zerg player. He is kind of the Kingdom of Zerg. When he wins he wins in such entertaining ways, has the talent to beat anyone; one of the only non-Savior zergs to beat an in-form oov (in a stunning 2-0 win, one of which was the famous ensnare on wraiths victory)
Much like kingdom he can really, really blow. Losing two bo5 ZvZ series back to back and choking bad on a few occasions. But he always remained one of the few players to maintain a low econ aggressive style. When Samsung Khan had their bursts of glory, Jju was always their key player alongside the likes of Sigamari and Stork.

I also like how he is always full of expression, when something goes wrong or right you can really tell. I also liked how he was loyal to his roots back at SOUL before he moved to Khan, when Samsung Khan won the first Kespa cup, he was the MVP and said in an interview first thing he wanted to do was buy all his ex-teammates at soul dinner.

<3 Jju the jittery frowning zerg.


Last news of JJu was that he is a popular poker player prominent in the domestic Korean scene.

#5. (Z)Soulkey (김민철, Kim Min-cheol)
[image loading]


There is no doubt that if the professional Brood War scene had not transitioned to Starcraft II, Soulkey would have eventually won an OSL/MSL. While he initially played second fiddle to ZerO as part of the Woongjin Stars Zerg line-up, by the end of Brood War's timeline, he would eventually overtake ZerO as the team's marquee player.

Soulkey's game style was similar to that of a former Woongjin Stars legend, GGPlay. His heavy emphasis on '운영 unyeong' or 'game management' - provided a pleasant experience for the neutral. While many Zergs during the time shied away from fighting mechanic transitioning Terran players, Soulkey was one of the few Zergs who was bold and willing to face the challenge, and while his ZvT win-rate is sub par compared to his other match-ups, many of his opponents were great TvZ players such as Flash, Fantasy and Leta. His ability to manage the game saw his ZvP skills achieve an impressive win-rate of 65% in televised matches.

While the other Zergs of his time such as Hydra, ZerO and Jaedong had flaws to their game, Soulkey's sound fundamentals and no-nonsense approach to the game would have developed over time to be a force to be reckoned with, a la Flash and the Terran race, if not for the transition to SC2. As such, he merits 5th place on my list.

Soulkey has transitioned well from Brood War into Starcraft II, becoming a GSL/WCS Korea champion as well as a World Cyber Games title in 2013.

#4. (Z)Junwi (박경락, Park Gyeong-lak)
[image loading]


Referred to in Korea as the 'Public Enemy' for his penchant for eliminating fan favourites from tournaments, Junwi was one of the less appreciated Zerg players during a time (2002-2003) where Yellow and Chojja were getting most of the attention. During this period, Junwi staked his claim as one of the best Zergs, placing top four in three major leagues (4th KPGA Tour, Olympus OSL, mycube OSL).

However, after 2003 - Junwi completely fell off the map and was never his old self. Nobody can really figure out why - he had all the potential in the world after being recruited into the Hanbit Stars team after his impressive performance at the 2002 WCG Korea qualifiers. Maybe it was the pressure of being the marquee player of the Stars team after Reach, Sync and Kingdom left for greener pastures. Maybe it was because he had other distractions in his life. Who knows?

Despite having an atrocious mirror match-up (which halted him from advancing into the finals of two major leagues), his ZvP and ZvT were feared by every progamer out there. On the right day, he could take out anyone with ease. As such, Junwi places 4th on my list.

After a stint as the OGN observer for Starcraft matches, Junwi attempted to make a comeback in SC2 with the Incredible Miracle team. However, after not much success, he quietly faded into retirement and has not been heard from since.

#3. (Z)ZerO (김명운, Kim Myeong-un)
[image loading]


Two games can sum up ZerO's career for me. His match against Bisu on Heartbreak Ridge in the Bacchus OSL and the infamous Tving OSL Semi-Final Game 4 against JangBi.

The first game linked was simply game preparation done perfectly. Bisu - considered the king of the six dragons of Protoss at the time, was considered a heavy favourite coming into that match. However, ZerO articulated a game plan using queens to broodling High Templars and hit Bisu with a timing attack. Not to be outdone, Bisu bought in his own game plan with Dark Archons to feedback these queens. ZerO came out on top in the end and was revered as a genius of the match-up.

The second game linked (and in my opinion, the greatest game in the history of Brood War) saw ZerO just one game away from making the finals of the last ever Brood War Starleague. On a map known to give Protoss players fits, ZerO was destined to win the game when he completely ignored the fact that his economy was so weak that any sort of hanbang controlled right from JangBi could kill him. After JangBi's defense repelled all of ZerO's attacks, JangBi performed his hanbang and miraculously won the game. ZerO could not put himself together after that and proceeded to lose the series.

ZerO is an interesting player to discuss. Following in the footsteps of former Stars players such as Junwi and GGPlay, ZerO didn't seem to have much weakness in his gameplay. He had that ability to prepare well for a series (cue game 1).

However, the main weakness was his mentality - so weak that it limited his ability to win games when needed. When the pressure was on, he would always drop the ball and not finish the match out (cue game 2).

It's unfortunate how ZerO's professional career has ended up - and for him, it seems to be the same in the amateur circuit. Despite strong performances in smaller tournaments, he simply hasn't been able to put it together in the SSL/KSL.

#2. (Z)H.O.T-Forever (강도경, Kang Doh-kyeong)
[image loading]


I don't want to dwell much onto H.O.T-Forever, because pubbanana has already written an excellent piece on him titled Piano Man. Give it a read.

What will I go into is that as a first-generation professional gamer, I believe HOT is the only one that remains active within the industry to this date (as head coach of KT Rolster). His ability to remain active in the industry for such a long period of time (over 15 years) is a testament to his talent.

After stepping down from focusing on individual play with the introduction of 2v2 in Proleague, he would find success in the team-play format, being a former Hunters star with Reach. After entering the military, he would be called up by BoxeR and the Air Force to join their new team, Air Force ACE, to be their 2v2 specialist. After being discharged from the military, he became a coach for KT Rolster before being promoted to head coach of the SC2 team last year after Lee Ji-hoon's move to the League of Legends squad.

#1. (Z)YellOw (홍진호, Hong Jin-ho)
[image loading]


I don't need to write anything about this one.
+ Show Spoiler +
Alright, fine, I'll write something about the King of Kong. How about in haiku form?

Always came in second.
Changed how Zerg's think about the game.
Just think aggression.

By showing poor Zerg.
Always made players guess moves.
Made for fun matches.

A fan favourite.
Many made jokes out of him.
Never won a major.





Will probably get the Protoss one out in the next few weeks...
Until then, farewell.
Commentator
~chut~
Profile Joined September 2003
France1317 Posts
January 13 2015 11:35 GMT
#2
Good list, even though i'm not sure i would have included Soulkey in it. He was a young developing player with a lot of potential, and he became a champion even though it wasn't in the BW era.


Maybe you could have put [Z-Zone]Byun in it instead
Or JinNam ?

After all, apart from Zero, your list is filled with old school players. It shows that it was hard for zergs back then. After Savior, lots of them managed to get a SL title, GGPlay, Luxury, Calm, Effort... In the same time, it became harder for protoss to win titles.
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
January 13 2015 12:16 GMT
#3
LOL, Junwi looks like the bad guy in a kung fu film I just saw on TV.

I do feel bad for Yellow... must've been hard being the premiere Z during the early years while still getting repeatedly denied by the procession of early Terran bonjwas... Boxer, Nada, Oov... and then watching other Zs, July and Savior, break through and do what he couldn't.

Must be frustrating to be so good and yet never climb that last mountain, even once. Forget Zs, Yellow must be the best bw PLAYER of all time never to win a major.

Though I guess 95% of pro BWers would've still traded their careers for his... he did win a lot of lesser tournaments, plus the $$$ from all those second places in big events must add up.

User was warned for being hilarious
Probemicro
Profile Joined February 2014
3708 Posts
January 13 2015 12:38 GMT
#4
Pretty much agree with this ranking (though it rankles to see Kwanro of all players being considered championship caliber)

Also why not put pubbanana's article on yellow as well? The Storm Zerg
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-13 13:32:01
January 13 2015 13:27 GMT
#5
I can't agree with your assessment of Zero. I followed him closely a long time, and I really liked him as a player, but a convincing case can't be made for nervousness as the issue (it feels like a very random thing to blame generally). Zero had issues (or maybe just quirks) with his gameplay that cause him to sometimes lose unexpectedly. The biggest thing you notice when you watch Zero for a long time is that his greatest strength is his late game, more specifically his large army control and macromanagement, and general strategic insight into the later stages of the game.

Now you will immediately think of game 5 vs Jangbi where Zero lost a tonne of stuff just to not realising there were dts killing all his drones (but you will also see in that game his strengths). You might point to that single game as a loss due to nervousness, but 1 it doesn't say much about his overall career in which he went deep in many tournaments, and 2 if you watch the video the way his face looks is like he's got serious eye-strain from over focusing, like he's actually in pain. That's his own fault, but it's not nervousness really.

The thing you have to analyse about Zero is that he has a record like 55% vs anyone, from mediocre players to TBLS. He doesn't lose 50% of the time because he gets nervous, he's loses 50% of the time because he doesn't get to the part of the game where he's truly strong. Against TBLS he has a pretty strong game because those are also players who largely want the game to go on longer because their advantages usually grow. That's why we know Zero is so strong at all, because he can beat these players in the late game (even if he is not absolutely dominant). The problem is that Zero loses tonnes of games due to stupid miss steps early on, and in the last OSL we did kind of see Zero trying to reform his early game (to pretty decent success we must admit). But that only works on the aggression. The weakness of Zerg as a race generally is that if they are playing for a long game, they have to walk a very fine line for the first 10 minutes where it is extremely easy to lose, and that is where Zero loses all his games (in what looks uncharacteristic of a great player). If you look at the Zergs who really did become champions, they did so because 1 they were aggressive players who took control of the early game or 2 they were very consistent about walking that fine line the first 10 minutes. That's not to say Zero is really bad at it, he's a pro and he has pro level zerg, but that's what you need to be dominant at to get that 60-70% winrate.

For me Zero is Queens / Hive ZvZ, proxy hatches, Queens ZvT, drone rushes, and beastly large army control. It's very telling that when Zero looked really strong he was playing against Terrans turtling mech and not putting much pressure on him early game.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
January 13 2015 13:29 GMT
#6
On January 13 2015 22:27 Chef wrote:
I can't agree with your assessment of Zero. I followed him closely a long time, and I really liked him as a player, but a convincing case can't be made for nervousness as the issue (it feels like a very random thing to blame generally). Zero had issues (or maybe just quirks) with his gameplay that cause him to sometimes lose unexpectedly. The biggest thing you notice when you watch Zero for a long time is that his greatest strength is his late game, more specifically his large army control and macromanagement, and general strategic insight into the later stages of the game.

Now you will immediately think of game 5 vs Jangbi where Zero lost a tonne of stuff just to not realising there were dts killing all his drones (but you will also see in that game his strengths). You might point to that single game as a loss due to nervousness, but 1 it doesn't say much about his overall career in which he went deep in many tournaments, and 2 if you watch the video the way his face looks is like he's got serious eye-strain from over focusing, like he's actually in pain. That's his own fault, but it's not nervousness really.

The thing you have to analyse about Zero is that he has a record like 55% vs anyone, from mediocre players to TBLS. He doesn't lose 50% of the time because he gets nervous, he's loses 50% of the time because he doesn't get to the part of the game where he's truly strong. Against TBLS he has a pretty strong game because those are also players who largely want the game to go on longer because their advantages usually grow. That's why we know Zero is so strong at all, because he can beat these players in the late game (even if he is not absolutely dominant). The problem is that Zero loses tonnes of games due to stupid miss steps early on, and in the last OSL we did kind of see Zero trying to reform his early game (to pretty decent success we must admit). But that only works on the aggression. The weakness of Zerg as a race generally is that if they are playing for a long game, they have to walk a very fine line for the first 10 minutes where it is extremely easy to lose, and that is where Zero loses all his games (in what looks uncharacteristic of a great player). If you look at the Zergs who really did become champions, they did so because 1 they were aggressive players who took control of the early game or 2 they were very consistent about walking that fine line the first 10 minutes. That's not to say Zero is really bad at it, he's a pro and he has pro level zerg, but that's what you need to be dominant at to get that 60-70% winrate.

For me Zero is Queens / Hive ZvZ, proxy hatches, Queens ZvT, drone rushes, and beastly large army control. It's very telling that when Zero looked really strong was when he players against Terran's turtling mech and not putting much pressure on him early game.


What about your thoughts on ZerO's MSL performance, when he went 0-3 against FlaSh?
kiss kiss fall in love
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19237 Posts
January 13 2015 14:24 GMT
#7
It's hard to argue this list. Basically every zerg who deserved to win, did at some point. Pretty fascinating.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32740 Posts
January 13 2015 15:27 GMT
#8
YellOw finally got first place... In a list of people who never won a major.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
January 13 2015 15:40 GMT
#9
With all due respect, where is [z-zone]Byun? I know from reading ancient texts that he and H.O.T. were the lords of the first generation zerg users. It's kind of sad that they played at a time when major leagues were really few, but I guess it's thanks to them that progaming took off.

About Junwi's fall, Coach Jae-kyung(?) said it was because of his gf breaking up with him and he couldn't go back to form thanks to that.

Also as much as Junwi was hailed as the next YellOw (in terms of strength of play), I think the longer time that JJu posted good results and carrying his teams are enough merit to put him in the top 5 (I mean after Junwi fell off, he was nowhere to be found after.) But hey, these are my opinions. Really nice piece!

Final note, Yay H.O.T-Forever! Oh and YellOw won GhemTV 2003 Season 2 SL vs NaDa XD.

WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
Mirabel_
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1768 Posts
January 13 2015 18:31 GMT
#10
Here's my list:
1. YellOw
2. Kwanro
3./4. JJu/H.O.T-Forever (too close to call here)
5. Shine (yes, Shine)
Honorable mention: ZerO, soO (yes, soO)
Dishonorable mention: Yarnc

I think people wanted to believe Soulkey was the next big Zerg enough to make it historical fact, kind of like the situation with ZerO and Action. I missed the era of Junwi, honestly, but the general sentiment seemed to be that he wasn't exactly a dominator.
get stronger play longer
G5
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States2898 Posts
January 13 2015 18:48 GMT
#11
Not a bad list.

#1 as YellOw is undeniable.

#2 as H.O.T-Forever is pretty hard to deny as well.

#3 I'd put as Junwi. When he was in his prime, he was pretty dominant and definitely could have won a major.

#4 I'd put as ZerO simply for how long he was around and playing at a high level.

#5 I'd put as KwanrO. Although not around as long as ZerO, he was better than ZerO imo.
jinyung2
Profile Joined November 2014
Luxembourg1455 Posts
January 13 2015 19:03 GMT
#12
kim chul min
hehehe
Argentina
~chut~
Profile Joined September 2003
France1317 Posts
January 13 2015 19:16 GMT
#13
On January 14 2015 03:31 Mirabel_ wrote:
Here's my list:
1. YellOw
2. Kwanro
3./4. JJu/H.O.T-Forever (too close to call here)
5. Shine (yes, Shine)
Honorable mention: ZerO, soO (yes, soO)
Dishonorable mention: Yarnc

I think people wanted to believe Soulkey was the next big Zerg enough to make it historical fact, kind of like the situation with ZerO and Action. I missed the era of Junwi, honestly, but the general sentiment seemed to be that he wasn't exactly a dominator.


You have to be insane to put Shine on that list. He was a one trick poney, his hydra bust timing was perfect against protoss, but that was it. I'd put Silver over him, Silver was also only good at one match-up but at least he carried it all the way to a final and he created that fantastic build on Monty Hall, offensive hatch into 3 gaz - hive - Guardians that was so funny to watch.

Also Soo? Let's be serious please

Junwi was kind of the only hope for zerg at some point, Yellow and Chojja had slumped, he was the only one playing at a reasonably good level at some point. Something was lacking though, but it's been a while and i can't remember exactly what was wrong with him, maybe he didn't handle pressure well.
iSometric
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
2221 Posts
January 13 2015 19:22 GMT
#14
Where's Shine.
strava.com/athletes/zhaodynasty
duke91
Profile Joined April 2014
Germany1458 Posts
January 13 2015 19:23 GMT
#15
Wait so yellow is #1 on that list...
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)STYLE START SBENU( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-13 22:23:01
January 13 2015 22:22 GMT
#16
On January 13 2015 19:26 GTR wrote:
(i.e. vs Iris in the Avalon MSL semi-final)
...
(i.e. losing with a 5 pool against Calm's 12 hatchery in the Avalon MSL final)

e.g. [image loading]
brood war for life, brood war forever
Mirabel_
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1768 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-13 22:40:51
January 13 2015 22:22 GMT
#17
On January 14 2015 04:16 ~chut~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2015 03:31 Mirabel_ wrote:
Here's my list:
1. YellOw
2. Kwanro
3./4. JJu/H.O.T-Forever (too close to call here)
5. Shine (yes, Shine)
Honorable mention: ZerO, soO (yes, soO)
Dishonorable mention: Yarnc

I think people wanted to believe Soulkey was the next big Zerg enough to make it historical fact, kind of like the situation with ZerO and Action. I missed the era of Junwi, honestly, but the general sentiment seemed to be that he wasn't exactly a dominator.

You have to be insane to put Shine on that list. He was a one trick poney, his hydra bust timing was perfect against protoss, but that was it. I'd put Silver over him, Silver was also only good at one match-up but at least he carried it all the way to a final and he created that fantastic build on Monty Hall, offensive hatch into 3 gaz - hive - Guardians that was so funny to watch.

Also Soo? Let's be serious please

Shine's hotstreak in 2010 is what all Zergs strive for, and he's been consistent enough at his other matchups to have strong records against Bisu and Stork. Additionally he and soO were decent enough on their bad weeks and amazing enough on their good weeks to maintain relevance throughout the highest-level era of BW. No one liked them because they weren't stylish and they kept Protoss favorites in check, but that consistency is absurdly rare among Zergs in particular, and they both kept their roles intact even after the transition to SC2.

That I've selected these sniper Zergs over starleague finalists is testament to the reality that almost all the Zergs with >1 consistently good matchup actually won a major at some point.
get stronger play longer
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
January 14 2015 01:12 GMT
#18
On January 14 2015 04:03 jinyung2 wrote:
kim chul min
hehehe

starcraft progamer by day

hype as fuck commentator by night
Writerptrk
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
January 14 2015 02:40 GMT
#19
On January 14 2015 10:12 ArvickHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2015 04:03 jinyung2 wrote:
kim chul min
hehehe

starcraft progamer by day

hype as fuck commentator by night

I get confused by their names all the time.
WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
January 14 2015 05:11 GMT
#20
Junwi's "Kyung Rak Massage" tactic made a big impression on Zerg players at the time. That sort of drop control (and frequency) was uncommon until Junwi used it.
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
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