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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On December 03 2013 22:07 shaftofpleasure wrote:
China used Savior for publicity.
It was Super Effective.
Kespa is confused!
Kespa used Blizzard!....but hurt itself in confusion.
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On December 03 2013 22:10 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 22:07 shaftofpleasure wrote:
China used Savior for publicity.
It was Super Effective. Kespa is confused! Kespa used Blizzard!....but hurt itself in confusion.
Dear lord, the laughs.
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On December 03 2013 21:30 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Except that Leo's little incident where he acquainted a number of people with his teeth was a part of what damaged the "full fledged zoo's" public reputation, which led to falling ticket sales, and eventually, at least indirectly, to the decision to 'transition' to the shitty petting zoo. It seems not irrational, in that circumstance, to hold Leo for being, at least partially, responsible for only getting a miniature donkey. And may be insensitive to those people who were mauled, and to the other animals in the zoo that were put down as a result of the closure to continue displaying Leo at other, smaller zoos. So the request to other zoos to not display Leo (or maybe put him down) doesn't seem so unreasonable in that context. That and also, lions maul people if improperly contained. Lions as any predators are driven by biological and evolutionary imperative, mauling other animals is kinda their thing. Savior, on the other hand, is just a scumbag. Match fixing isn't an irrepressible response or biological imperative, it's just a horrible thing to choose to do, so the analogy kinda falls apart.
Well but before the incident, a big part of the public interest in the zoo and consequently a large amount of ticket sales and other profit was because of Leo, because he was by FAR the biggest attraction in the zoo. Maybe if it wasnt for Leo, the zoo would have had to cut back even earlier...
As you can see this is all pure speculation. Savior did matchfixing which was obviously bad. Anything else is just wild speculation with a small grain of truth. Did Savior hurt BW? yes. Is he the reason BW got shut down? No. Did Savior help BW? Yes. Is he the only reason BW had huge amounts of following in his era? No. Savior did some good and some bad for BW this is the only thing that is undisputable and anybody who neglects one side of the coin is looking at it from a highly emotional standpoint.
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actually kespa asked china-blizzard to stop this before the tournament starts. (there are few KeSPA officers in China during the WCG)
Im not sure if blizzard ever contacted SCNTV, but they never stopped the tournament because they didnt knew the tournament gonna be this big.
also, it seems after the finals few 2v2 players (but who??) went to night club, bought some Chinese whores and got caught, because they didnt have money to pay.
ps. as far as i heard, savior is very mature and he definitely has ability to manipulate other ppl.
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On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
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Czech Republic6104 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
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On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Not many benefits? He is a superstar. The attention he can bring is only rivaled by legends like boxer, nada and so on. Actually Id argue there is no other player in the current bw scene that even has half the popularity. Savior is one of the few legends of the game, like it or not. Im willing to bet the number of viewers he would attract for whatever reasons (haters and fanboys alike) would hugely outweigh the number of viewers lost because they dont watch a tourney with him in it out of principle. Of course, this is all speculation, but thinking he has nothing to offer for the current BW scene is quite absurd imo.
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Czech Republic6104 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:30 diehilde wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him. Not many benefits? He is a superstar. The attention he can bring is only rivaled by legends like boxer, nada and so on. Actually Id argue there is no other player in the current bw scene that even has half the popularity. Savior is one of the few legends of the game, like it or not. Im willing to bet the number of viewers he would attract for whatever reasons (haters and fanboys alike) would hugely outweigh the number of viewers lost because they dont watch a tourney with him in it out of principle. Of course, this is all speculation, but thinking he has nothing to offer for the current BW scene is quite absurd imo.
He has nothing to offer to Korean BW scene.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:44 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:30 diehilde wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him. Not many benefits? He is a superstar. The attention he can bring is only rivaled by legends like boxer, nada and so on. Actually Id argue there is no other player in the current bw scene that even has half the popularity. Savior is one of the few legends of the game, like it or not. Im willing to bet the number of viewers he would attract for whatever reasons (haters and fanboys alike) would hugely outweigh the number of viewers lost because they dont watch a tourney with him in it out of principle. Of course, this is all speculation, but thinking he has nothing to offer for the current BW scene is quite absurd imo. He has nothing to offer to Korean BW scene.
or rather, much of the korean scene doesn't want what he could possibly offer.
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Czech Republic6104 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:44 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:30 diehilde wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:
[quote]
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him. Not many benefits? He is a superstar. The attention he can bring is only rivaled by legends like boxer, nada and so on. Actually Id argue there is no other player in the current bw scene that even has half the popularity. Savior is one of the few legends of the game, like it or not. Im willing to bet the number of viewers he would attract for whatever reasons (haters and fanboys alike) would hugely outweigh the number of viewers lost because they dont watch a tourney with him in it out of principle. Of course, this is all speculation, but thinking he has nothing to offer for the current BW scene is quite absurd imo. He has nothing to offer to Korean BW scene. or rather, much of the korean scene doesn't want what he could possibly offer.
Correct, 30:1 Koreans don't want to see his skills melt in SoSPA competition.
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On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it.
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Czech Republic6104 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:52 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him. Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it.
I'm not people then.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 03 2013 21:30 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Except that Leo's little incident where he acquainted a number of people with his teeth was a part of what damaged the "full fledged zoo's" public reputation, which led to falling ticket sales, and eventually, at least indirectly, to the decision to 'transition' to the shitty petting zoo. It seems not irrational, in that circumstance, to hold Leo for being, at least partially, responsible for only getting a miniature donkey. And may be insensitive to those people who were mauled, and to the other animals in the zoo that were put down as a result of the closure to continue displaying Leo at other, smaller zoos. So the request to other zoos to not display Leo (or maybe put him down) doesn't seem so unreasonable in that context. That and also, lions maul people if improperly contained. Lions as any predators are driven by biological and evolutionary imperative, mauling other animals is kinda their thing. Savior, on the other hand, is just a scumbag. Match fixing isn't an irrepressible response or biological imperative, it's just a horrible thing to choose to do, so the analogy kinda falls apart.
Match-fixing is a biological imperative though if you think about it....
There's a reason why it's happened in every sport in the history of humanity. It also goes on to degrees greater than what most people think... because we only hear about those dumb enough to get caught. Almost all 'crime' committed in the world is driven by an evolutionary imperative to 'get the money' or 'get it in.' People don't just do things because one day they make a conscious decision to be a 'bad person.' There's almost always a reason that 'makes sense' (except serial killers like Luxury lolz).
Was Saviors banishment from the industry, small fines, and reputation destruction enough punishment for his actions? I have no clue nor do I care as I'd personally love to see Savior compete and be 'the bad guy' in SC:BW. But one thing is for sure is that the e-sports mafia Kespa shouldn't be the one at the top of the bench with a gavel making the moral decisions.
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On December 04 2013 00:01 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:52 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him. Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it. I'm not people then.
Take any competitive sport, look for a team/individual that is totally dominating the competition around it/him/her. It would be better for the scene as a whole if they would stop dominating the competition, since that makes the games boring which might lead to people watching less games, yet there are always a lot of fans supporting them.
People cheering for teams / players regardless of the overall scene is a fact something that is omnipresent in any sport.
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On December 04 2013 00:10 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:30 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote:
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize. This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Except that Leo's little incident where he acquainted a number of people with his teeth was a part of what damaged the "full fledged zoo's" public reputation, which led to falling ticket sales, and eventually, at least indirectly, to the decision to 'transition' to the shitty petting zoo. It seems not irrational, in that circumstance, to hold Leo for being, at least partially, responsible for only getting a miniature donkey. And may be insensitive to those people who were mauled, and to the other animals in the zoo that were put down as a result of the closure to continue displaying Leo at other, smaller zoos. So the request to other zoos to not display Leo (or maybe put him down) doesn't seem so unreasonable in that context. That and also, lions maul people if improperly contained. Lions as any predators are driven by biological and evolutionary imperative, mauling other animals is kinda their thing. Savior, on the other hand, is just a scumbag. Match fixing isn't an irrepressible response or biological imperative, it's just a horrible thing to choose to do, so the analogy kinda falls apart. Match-fixing is a biological imperative though if you think about it.... There's a reason why it's happened in every sport in the history of humanity. It also goes on to degrees greater than what most people think... because we only hear about those dumb enough to get caught. Almost all 'crime' committed in the world is driven by an evolutionary imperative to 'get the money' or 'get it in.' People don't just do things because one day they make a conscious decision to be a 'bad person.' There's almost always a reason that makes sense (except serial killers like Luxury lolz). Was Saviors banishment from the industry, small fines, and reputation destruction enough punishment for his actions? I have no clue nor do I care as I'd personally love to see Savior compete and be 'the bad guy' in SC:BW. But one thing is for sure is that the e-sports mafia Kespa shouldn't be the one at the top of the bench with a gavel making the moral decisions.
Greed is a biological imperative, but so is everything else despicable about humanity, unless you suppose we should just discard all attempts at civility or attempts at progressing beyond operating by evolutionary instinct. Just because something is naturally occurring doesn't mean we shouldn't denounce it in the face of mutual human interests. All corporate entities by their definition and historically relevant social interest circles operate to maximize their own collectivist interest, Kespa is no less or more a mafia than any other esports organization.
On December 04 2013 00:15 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:01 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:52 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:
[quote]
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again? because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him. Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it. I'm not people then. Take any competitive sport, look for a team/individual that is totally dominating the competition around it/him/her. It would be better for the scene as a whole if they would stop dominating the competition, since that makes the games boring which might lead to people watching less games, yet there are always a lot of fans supporting them. People cheering for teams / players regardless of the overall scene is a fact something that is omnipresent in any sport.
I was under the impression that eminent individuals actually help draw attention to a sport or competition because exceptionalism bridges gaps between populations and groups. With out dominating teams or individuals there is almost no draw for the outsider who isn't familiar to the scene to become interested or invested in a sport, and in most cases that's the demographic you are most interest in drawing to your competition, not just appealing to the already loyal fan base.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
I agree and thats my point in this thread. People want to completely vilify and denounce Savior while mostly ignoring everything else.
And what's really funny to me is if Savior had come out with some bullshit apology and shown some fake remorse a lot of people's attitudes on these forums or Korean forums would be totally different.
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On December 03 2013 20:38 Lysteria wrote:
Anyone saying they'll not watch BW because sAviOr is still in the scene is just someone that wasn't going to watch BW in the first place. I don't know, a true BW fan will watch some matches and tournaments no matter what. If he really hates sAviOr and chooses not to watch tournaments he appears in, it leaves almost every tournaments for the last 2 years.
He sure has fucked up somewhere in his life, but he makes a good scapegoat for everything happening to BW.
You're wrong. I would love to watch BW again. I think it's a more fun game to watch than SC2. But the thing is, the community around it is kind of important too. I never would've stopped watching bw if the OSL and Proleague would've stayed with bw. But I did because the bw scene felt pretty dead for a while. There has been something of a resurgence and I am happy about that but as long as savior is competing the scene is tainted.
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can't this thread get renamed? This is so misleading.
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On December 04 2013 00:51 Caihead wrote:[...] Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:15 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 04 2013 00:01 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:52 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 23:08 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 23:04 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:
[quote]
because you said bookie's don't lose lol And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL. Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people. Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey. #freeLeo Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene. It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL. I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior. If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him. In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with. Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him. Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it. I'm not people then. Take any competitive sport, look for a team/individual that is totally dominating the competition around it/him/her. It would be better for the scene as a whole if they would stop dominating the competition, since that makes the games boring which might lead to people watching less games, yet there are always a lot of fans supporting them. People cheering for teams / players regardless of the overall scene is a fact something that is omnipresent in any sport. I was under the impression that eminent individuals actually help draw attention to a sport or competition because exceptionalism bridges gaps between populations and groups. With out dominating teams or individuals there is almost no draw for the outsider who isn't familiar to the scene to become interested or invested in a sport, and in most cases that's the demographic you are most interest in drawing to your competition, not just appealing to the already loyal fan base.
Even without dominating teams / individuals, people might be drawn to a sport if he/she is affiliated with enough people who are drawn to the sport. And whether a dominating team / individual is good for the sport or not depends largely on the system, I guess.
One example that comes into my mind is FC Bayern Munich in the German Bundesliga. Even their coach admitted that football becomes less and less interesting to watch, as they dominate more and more of their games.
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On December 04 2013 00:51 Caihead wrote:
Kespa is no less or more a mafia than any other esports organization.
I haven't been around as long as some people have, but KeSPA has only recently become "liked" in the Western scene. There are a lot of good reasons why KeSPA deserves to be hated, but it would take somebody who's been around longer than me to explain them well.
KeSPA has always ruled with a complete Iron Fist when they can.
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EPT
