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Man this is rough for me. I remember when it first happened, and watching a clip of Nal_Ra talking to some people about it. And how disgusted he was. At the time I couldn't help but agree with him. This was a BIG deal, and it had to be dealt with in a way that said "never again."
As I've grown and matured since then, I try to live understanding that people make mistakes, and that everybody needs forgiveness. And I remember watching (mostly Klazart) casts of sAviOr and how hyped he'd get about it. His play really was something special.
I want somebody like that back. I do. But I can't. It's like a contradiction that I can't resolve. I can say for sure he should be allowed to play the game. For instance, just because somebody is banned from say MLB doesn't mean he can't go play baseball in a local league. But where do you draw the line? Obviously he can't play in KeSPA again. But is this too professional of a league for him to play in? I don't know...But either way I'll live with it.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote:
Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught.
If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
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United States11390 Posts
On December 03 2013 11:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote:
Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones! I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught. If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
On June 24 2012 14:46 Clefairy wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tIKhX.jpg) sAviOr: BW is dead. That's how the world is. How much longer can we play 2D games
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 03 2013 11:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote:
Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones! I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught. If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
if u wanna use that logic then the player exploitation by kespa on contracts/salaries was 1000000x worse than anything savior ever did
what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
fake apologies only serve to appease the minds of grovelling simpletons, kudos to savior for atleast not being disingenuous in that regard
the scandal was a speed bump but had absolutely nothing to do with the downfall of SC:BW, blizzard and kespa are the culprits there 100%
savior never did anything to actively gain an advantage for himself in competition either, it's not like he was a maphacker. wat a nice guy for letting people win~~~
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Rekrul is the last person I expected to be sympathetic towards sAviOr @.@. Not to say that I'm not as well though (as indicated by my post xD)
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 03 2013 12:08 ExO_ wrote:
Rekrul is the last person I expected to be sympathetic towards sAviOr @.@. Not to say that I'm not as well though (as indicated by my post xD)
i'm not really sympathetic, and i understand that people hate him with a passion, but from my point of view what rly happened:
a man at the peak of his career, with a pretty much guaranteed long-standing position in his industry (which would have earned him a lot of money) took a very short sighted greedy gamble to make some money
not only that, but he did it in the dumbest and riskiest way possible by involving lots of other people
who knows how much $ he made, it could be over a million, it could be less (probably less despite rumors)
to think that he's the most terrible evil mastermind ever because of this is pretty silly, just a dumb kid totally blinded by short-term greed.
he definitely fucked over the industry somewhat, but the match-fixing wound is an inevitability of every sport and infact the end result could almost be argued as strengthening things because his haphazard method of getting other kids involved is what ultimately got him caught, atleast everyone became hyper-aware of these possibilities in e-sports after that
kespa on the other hand, a round table of big company shills disguised as representatives of the teams took players' prize money etc. on certain teams
peoples' hatred for savior is a testament to their love of broodwar, and its natural to want to blame something or someone when something u love dissapears, but SC:BW dying was inevitable for many reasons (much as SC2 will die when SC3 or w/e comes out...) and none of those reasons involve what savior did
at the end of the day saviors infamy and skill will be very helpful to any tournament...which will help re-grow SC:BW...to be mad at savior because "he killed BW" then not want him to participate in existing BW leagues at the same time is kinda a catch22 LOL
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Chinese organizers have all the right to include savior if they so wished or wished not, its their tournament, their money. People on the other hand saying that KeSPA has no right to ask them to ban savior because they arent involved with BW anymore. I think they have a good right, considering what they did for 13 years! People tend to forget that when they switched to SC2.
But my guesses on Blizzard are that, they dont care, at all to be frank.
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I don't know if MaJaeYoon deserves forgiveness. Did he apologize to Starleage? Did he say sorry to the progamer?
However, I really enjoyed the match in last weekend. Savior performed very good in the SCNTV's tournament (2v2). Thousands of BW fans in China enjoyed the game, either in front of the stage or in front of computer. So for me, I don't care what MaJaeYoon did before. Show us the fun, that's enough.
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On December 03 2013 10:13 GeLaar wrote:
What's all this about the SCNTV not obtaining a license from Blizzard? Has it even been established that such a license is necessary in China? Of course Blizzard will say that it is, but that matters very little unless Chinese law agrees with them. If I remember correctly there was a pretty fierce legal battle regarding licensing terms in South Korea, but I've never heard of anything similar happening in China.
Copyright is copyright. International treaties exist to enforce them and China has signed many of them. I am sure some tiny backward nations may have not signed such treaties, but China is a major industrial nation and has signed such treaties. Enforcement is an issue in the Wild Wild West that is China, but the black letter legality of copyright is not.
Also, the legal battle in Korea was only fierce on the surface. KeSPA was reluctant to go to court because it was standing on thin legal ice. As much as I dislike Blizzard, the legality of their actions was never really in doubt. Blizzard didn't even want to charge a lot of money. It says a lot about the idiotic management at KeSPA that they put up such a fight without really bothering to find out how much licensing would cost. Seeing as KeSPA was led mainly by SKT and KT at the time, it wouldn't surprise me that it was motivated by the same kind of short-sighted greed that resulted in Youtube being slow in Korea. That said, I don't know about the details of the negotiations so that last part is really just my own speculation.
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On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 11:50 Plexa wrote:On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote:
Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones! I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught. If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix. if u wanna use that logic then the player exploitation by kespa on contracts/salaries was 1000000x worse than anything savior ever did what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies fake apologies only serve to appease the minds of grovelling simpletons, kudos to savior for atleast not being disingenuous in that regard the scandal was a speed bump but had absolutely nothing to do with the downfall of SC:BW, blizzard and kespa are the culprits there 100% savior never did anything to actively gain an advantage for himself in competition either, it's not like he was a maphacker. wat a nice guy for letting people win~~~
Well Dan, let's put it in perspective shall we? You know how those guys view the vets, so it has a domino effect on those players they bring in. "Hey, these guys are doing it why not you?" *Shows off watches, shoes, sunglasses and all that jazz*
Furthermore, do you really want to be that guy who rats everyone else out not knowing what kind of ramifications and consequences there would be? It's putting them in a very difficult position and IPXZerg really has done nothing to show us that he's truly learned his lesson. Even then, KeSPA has every right to bar him from any of their gaming competitions. The problem here is it's China and they have no jurisdiction over the matter in this case. I'm all for MLB not allowing Pete Rose to go near the organization and contrary to your belief which has been argued many times before, it most certainly did speed things up. It's only one variable though which has been said many times just like the match-rigging in WC3 really hit the Korean scene hard as well.
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On December 03 2013 11:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote:
Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones! I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught. If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
I 100% agree, and woe to any tournament who'd be willing to have their integrity questioned by allowing a match-fixer to play. Besides, what sponsor wants their name associated with that?
That being said, he's banned from kespa, but if there's any organization that's willing to take him on, don't they have that right?
I personally wouldn't do it if I was an organizer, but if someone wants to risk that, that isn't involved with kespa, can't they do that?
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On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:
if u wanna use that logic then the player exploitation by kespa on contracts/salaries was 1000000x worse than anything savior ever did
You can say that paying low-level players not much money was a stupid decision given that it makes the incentives for bad behavior more appealing, but it does not make sense to call it immoral in the way that Savior's actions were. The unpopular low-level players were being paid at a rate commensurate with the revenue they were generating---which was essentially nil. You can accuse KeSPA of stupidity for that, but not of being exploitative.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:
what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:
fake apologies only serve to appease the minds of grovelling simpletons, kudos to savior for atleast not being disingenuous in that regard
I agree that fake apology is worse than no apology. Are our standards so low that we are offering kudos for that level of behavior? Let's not forget that genuine apology is better than no apology. Even better would be showing through his actions that he is sorry. Suing people for making negative comments about his match-fixing and playing BW during a period when he was supposed to be in jail for match-fixing is even worse than no apology. That is a defiant middle-finger to the BW community.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:
the scandal was a speed bump but had absolutely nothing to do with the downfall of SC:BW, blizzard and kespa are the culprits there 100%
Absolutely nothing? I agree that Blizzard and KeSPA had a massive hand in all this, but extreme statements like this are what offend people. Many e-Sports reporters and insiders have spoken about the impact that the match-fixing had. You can say that Blizzard and KeSPA were more responsible, but to say that match-fixing had absolutely nothing to do with the downfall of BW is such an extreme thing to say.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:
savior never did anything to actively gain an advantage for himself in competition either, it's not like he was a maphacker. wat a nice guy for letting people win~~~
I think that you are kidding, but I am not sure. Maybe we could draw this equivalence if he was match-fixing on his own, but he was a freakin' match-fixing broker. The scale of the crimes are very different.
On December 03 2013 12:19 Rekrul wrote:
i'm not really sympathetic, and i understand that people hate him with a passion, but from my point of view what rly happened:
a man at the peak of his career, with a pretty much guaranteed long-standing position in his industry (which would have earned him a lot of money) took a very short sighted greedy gamble to make some money
not only that, but he did it in the dumbest and riskiest way possible by involving lots of other people
who knows how much $ he made, it could be over a million, it could be less (probably less despite rumors)
to think that he's the most terrible evil mastermind ever because of this is pretty silly, just a dumb kid totally blinded by short-term greed.
he definitely fucked over the industry somewhat, but the match-fixing wound is an inevitability of every sport and infact the end result could almost be argued as strengthening things because his haphazard method of getting other kids involved is what ultimately got him caught, atleast everyone became hyper-aware of these possibilities in e-sports after that
kespa on the other hand, a round table of big company shills disguised as representatives of the teams took players' prize money etc. on certain teams
I don't disagree with much there.
On December 03 2013 12:19 Rekrul wrote:
peoples' hatred for savior is a testament to their love of broodwar, and its natural to want to blame something or someone when something u love dissapears, but SC:BW dying was inevitable for many reasons (much as SC2 will die when SC3 or w/e comes out...) and none of those reasons involve what savior did
at the end of the day saviors infamy and skill will be very helpful to any tournament...which will help re-grow SC:BW...to be mad at savior because "he killed BW" then not want him to participate in existing BW leagues at the same time is kinda a catch22 LOL
This last part is baffling. Savior's skill is no longer at an elite level, at least compared to the current crop of ex-pros. So it is not the skill level that is helpful because superior alternatives are available. Savior's infamy is perhaps helpful in the short term, but his involvement can only hurt BW in the long run. Short-run profit seeking (player conditions, match-fixing, copyright battle) is what created the conditions for the downfall of BW in the first place. There is no catch-22 here.
The argument about "he killed BW" is complete red herring. There were many gunmen who fired bullets at BW. What is more important now is that Savior is banned from all e-Sport events, not as punishment to Savior (although I admit I take some comfort in that) but as a deterrent to future match-fixers and to preserve the entire public's trust in the competitive integrity of BW events. It is quite strange that many people seem to undervalue the deterrence and trust aspects of all this.
I would normally chalk this off to different strokes for different folks, but every other sport in the world takes this super seriously. That comes from experience. We keep getting these comments about e-sports is not the same as other sports, but don't we want e-sports to be as respectable and popular as other sports? Maybe some people have given up and just want to be cynical about it. I don't know. At the moment, I still want to dream the pipe dream that is the revival of BW, so I care about the integrity of BW events not being tainted by a convicted match-fixer's presence. You seem to be adopting very consequentialist ethical standards, so for you, the difference in our positions really comes down to you not believing that Savior's presence is a long-term negative to the credibility of BW events. If you don't think that this is something important now, I doubt that anything I say will change your mind. Just know that every other organized competitive activity in the world takes this issue a lot more seriously than you (and several others in this thread) do. Maybe you are just way ahead of your time. Maybe not.
Peace out.
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On December 03 2013 11:25 ExO_ wrote:
Man this is rough for me. I remember when it first happened, and watching a clip of Nal_Ra talking to some people about it. And how disgusted he was. At the time I couldn't help but agree with him. This was a BIG deal, and it had to be dealt with in a way that said "never again."
As I've grown and matured since then, I try to live understanding that people make mistakes, and that everybody needs forgiveness. And I remember watching (mostly Klazart) casts of sAviOr and how hyped he'd get about it. His play really was something special.
I want somebody like that back. I do. But I can't. It's like a contradiction that I can't resolve. I can say for sure he should be allowed to play the game. For instance, just because somebody is banned from say MLB doesn't mean he can't go play baseball in a local league. But where do you draw the line? Obviously he can't play in KeSPA again. But is this too professional of a league for him to play in? I don't know...But either way I'll live with it.
Can't you just watch VODs of Savior's glory days? Back when he was truly a Maestro instead of someone who had to shave his eyebrows because he was pwned in matches by the likes of Terror/Britney? You can love the player that Savior once was while still recognizing that his present self is toxic to the BW community. Also, SCNTV was a large event with prize pools comparable to WCS. It wasn't some PC Bang League. In terms of rewards, it was a top tier event.
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On December 03 2013 13:45 lemmata wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:
what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself.
shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling!
On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 03 2013 13:45 lemmata wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:
what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself.
First of all I'm not saying its less wrong because he's exploiting degenerates and bookies, but the fact that it is makes it not 'hurting e-sports' in this case. If you wanna argue its wrong then well just about everything in the world is wrong because everyone exploits everyone. Just as there are lots of bad things happening in the world far worse than Savior's match-fixing but people choose to care about this and ignore other things. The fact that he fucked unrelated people instead of SC:BW people over monetarily makes a difference somewhat IMO.
And yes bookies can lose when their betters are betting huge and they don't have enough volume of small bets to even the scales and let vig win. Over ambitious bookies often go broke because of this. Also why sharps will quickly get their action cut off by bookies. Obviously not every bookie in korea was aware of the games that were about to be thrown...if every bookie was aware then it wouldn't work. It is incredibly common for bookies to need one side to win on any particular week. Sportsbetting is illegal in korea and these underground bookies don't have the luxury of huge player bases. All it takes is 1 bookie bribing savior and a lot of beards (people betting on savior/main bookie's behalf against other bookies) to crush not only his players but other bookies for max profit. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of fuckery that went on between bookies/beards/legit bettors depending on who was and wasn't in the know before the scandal went public.
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shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling!
Isn't he a pro poker player...oh I get it. That said, sportsbooks work somewhat differently than poker.
On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that.
In general I agree that KeSPA/Blizzard aren't that trustworthy, but what horrible thing could they do other than ask SCNTV to pay a $1 licensing fee and promise to keep banned players out of future events? That level of activity seems fine to me.
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I agree with all the guys saying he should not play in tournament anymore. But we can't stop other organizer from inviting him.
I read a comment that the sponsor personally requested him to participate.
This is the what im thinking: I want to organize a tournament and i need sponsor. I ask UN to sponsor me but they will only sponsor me is that guy(Savior) will play in the tournament. I said to them that he is ban but the sponsor insist that he should play or they will not sponsor. So what should i do? i invite him to play just or get another sponsor(which is none) or cancel the tournament?. So i decide to invite him so that i can get the tournament going. Which is from what i heard is a success.
The only problem is that did the organizer get a license from Blizzard to hold the tournament?
And Kespa has no right to stop the tournament because the tournament is not held in korea/or within its organization. Btw i think we have to organization in SC2?
Only Blizzard can stop the tournament but not Kespa.
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On December 03 2013 14:21 lemmata wrote:Show nested quote +shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling! Isn't he a pro poker player...oh I get it. That said, sportsbooks work somewhat differently than poker. Show nested quote +On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that. In general I agree that KeSPA/Blizzard aren't that trustworthy, but what horrible thing could they do other than ask SCNTV to pay a $1 licensing fee and promise to keep banned players out of future events? That level of activity seems fine to me.
pay a $1000000000000 license fee.
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On December 03 2013 14:14 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 13:45 lemmata wrote:On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote:
what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself. First of all I'm not saying its less wrong because he's exploiting degenerates and bookies, but the fact that it is makes it not 'hurting e-sports' in this case. If you wanna argue its wrong then well just about everything in the world is wrong because everyone exploits everyone. Just as there are lots of bad things happening in the world far worse than Savior's match-fixing but people choose to care about this and ignore other things. The fact that he fucked unrelated people instead of SC:BW people over monetarily makes a difference somewhat IMO. And yes bookies can lose when their betters are betting huge and they don't have enough volume of small bets to even the scales and let vig win. Over ambitious bookies often go broke because of this. Obviously not every bookie in korea was aware of the games that were about to be thrown...if every bookie was aware then it wouldn't work obviously. It is incredibly common for bookies to need one side to win on any particular week. Sportsbetting is illegal in korea and these underground bookies don't have the luxury of huge player bases. All it takes is 1 bookie bribing savior and a lot of beards (people betting on savior/main bookie's behalf against other bookies) to crush not only his players but other bookies for max profit. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of fuckery that went on between bookies/beards/legit bettors depending on who was and wasn't in the know before the scandal went public.
If you're saying that some bookies behave stupidly and can't be bothered with risk diversification, then you got me. Small-time illegal book don't have to be run by the smartest people. But if you are saying that your point was to say that Savior wasn't hurting e-sports with his match-fixing because the direct-level harm he inflicted was on the wallets of bookies and gamblers, then me thinks you have had one two many vodka shots. That's too much of a disagreement to even bother arguing. If you wish, you can reciprocate by attributing an equivalent amount inebriation to me.
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On December 03 2013 12:19 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 12:08 ExO_ wrote:
Rekrul is the last person I expected to be sympathetic towards sAviOr @.@. Not to say that I'm not as well though (as indicated by my post xD) i'm not really sympathetic, and i understand that people hate him with a passion, but from my point of view what rly happened: a man at the peak of his career, with a pretty much guaranteed long-standing position in his industry (which would have earned him a lot of money) took a very short sighted greedy gamble to make some money not only that, but he did it in the dumbest and riskiest way possible by involving lots of other people who knows how much $ he made, it could be over a million, it could be less (probably less despite rumors) to think that he's the most terrible evil mastermind ever because of this is pretty silly, just a dumb kid totally blinded by short-term greed. he definitely fucked over the industry somewhat, but the match-fixing wound is an inevitability of every sport and infact the end result could almost be argued as strengthening things because his haphazard method of getting other kids involved is what ultimately got him caught, atleast everyone became hyper-aware of these possibilities in e-sports after that kespa on the other hand, a round table of big company shills disguised as representatives of the teams took players' prize money etc. on certain teams peoples' hatred for savior is a testament to their love of broodwar, and its natural to want to blame something or someone when something u love dissapears, but SC:BW dying was inevitable for many reasons (much as SC2 will die when SC3 or w/e comes out...) and none of those reasons involve what savior did at the end of the day saviors infamy and skill will be very helpful to any tournament...which will help re-grow SC:BW...to be mad at savior because "he killed BW" then not want him to participate in existing BW leagues at the same time is kinda a catch22 LOL
I thought that the match fixing scandal was THE reason that bw died out; companies lost faith in the credibility of the league and pulled out their sponsorships. Proleague was 12 teams in 2008-2009 before the scandal and then shrunk by 4 teams. Do you blame Blizz just because of sc2 coming out ?
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EPT
