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I think I have figured dragoons vs hydralisks. Dragoons are one sixth more survivable vs hydralisks. The zerg can counter this with fast missile attack upgrade. +1 spines negate this. Dragoons are now only an eighteenth more survivable than hydralisks, down three times less than a sixth.
+1 protoss armor is again 50% favoured to go to the zerg. If the zerg can research +2 missile during this time, however, hydralisks are equal to +1 armor dragoons. Zerg is in a huge advantage. Protoss should NEVER upgrade armor, weapons upgrade is a must for the protoss. Weapons upgrade is how protoss reaps back the investment cost of dragoons since dragoons are twice as expensive as hydralisks. That is what you want to achieve in upgrades in order to counter hydralisks with dragoons favourably.
Is this possible: the ideal 2 times more survivability versus hydralisks? Theoretically, it is. +2/+3/+1/ and up, protoss upgrades against 0/0 zerg is indeed twice more survivable, but this is never in practice. A single carapace upgrade completely nullifies any attack advantage protoss has. Therefore zerg has a huge lead until protoss has +2/+3/+1. They can throw hydralisks around the map with zero upgrades and still outmacro the protoss. Let's face it that is 975/975 in upgrades vs zero and still favourable to zerg. +2/+3/+1 vs +3/+2, in other words one less upgrade, and the zerg hydralisk is actually 5% stronger than a dragoon.
PS: let's compare the best upgrade path for both races, so that we can trace how the upgrade mini game progresses between the dragoon and the hydralisk;
First upgrades: Protoss attack & zerg missile attack upgrades: 1.1875 (dragoon is up!),
Second upgrades: protoss armor & zerg carapace upgrades: 1.11 (dragoon is down),
Third upgrades: Protoss +2 attack & zerg +2 missile attack upgrades: 1.125 (dragoon is slightly down),
Fourth upgrades: protoss +2 armor & zerg +2 carapace upgrades: 1.055 (we are back at square one and even down one upgrade 0/0/0 protoss vs +1 missile attack),
Fifth upgrades: Protoss +3 attack & zerg +3 missile attack upgrades: 1.125 (same slight disadvantage as 2/1/0 protoss vs 2/1 zerg),
Sixth upgrades: protoss +3 armor & zerg +3 carapace upgrades: 1.055 (we are again at the 0/0/0 dragoons vs +1/0 hydralisks starting point!).
That is just how cut and dry it is with pvz upgrades. One thing to note, upgrading shields at +2 armor doesn't even tip the scale versus +3 missile attack hydralisks! 3/2/1 dragoons are even less durable than 3/3/0 dragoons. Hydralisks have 1:1 evened out the dragoon's survivability.
There is one way to keep ahead of zerg however that depends on zerg not double upgrading like yourself. If you can keep 1 upgrade ahead you go from 1.16 to 1.25(1/1/0 vs 1/0), 1.25 to 1.357(2/2/0 vs 2/0), then no change (3/3/0 vs 3/0 is also 1.357) to 1.357 once again(3/3/1 vs 3/1), 3/3/2 vs 3/2 we start to lose the effectiveness of the upgrades at 1.25 and last, 3/3/3 vs 3/3 fully upgraded hydralisks is back at square one and we just lost 750/750 in order to end up in the same spot as the protoss spending 1875/1875 while it cost zerg only 1125/1125.
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Without diving into the content, that is the most atrocious English I have read in this forum. Can't understand a damn sentence.
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I'm trying to coach Best in order to win the gf. We have a saying, the ground have ears.
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Game theory might say that Protoss does not benefit from armor or shields upgrades as much because it generally has less units in total. Especially early game when you have the best success in quick, small skirmishes. Everything is already expensive as it is. +1 armor is good, but +2 should come later in the game after you've amassed a army with presence and HTs. Shield upgrades should be skipped more or less entirely unless it's late game and you have 1500+ minerals.
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It gets crazier. If zerg can accept 7.14% loss in the first upgrade cycle by letting protoss double upgrade while zerg only upgrades the missile attack, zerg gets a 100/100 advantage. This goes for 100+175+250+50+75+100 and zerg ends up making up what percentage in attack upgrades it lost to protoss in the end over an 18 minute scale. For 18 minutes, if zerg can play with 16.3% weaker than normal hydralisks - that is to say 19 hydralisks matching 14 dragoons in the field which is still economical to the zerg anyway instead of 7:6 the usual - zerg economy is boosted and ends up not losing anything, but saving 750/750. That is right, for 18 minutes you can churn 19 hydralisks every minute(just over 3.99 hatcheries, so 4) and keep protoss at bay. An 8 gateway protoss will have zero progress against zerg making 19 hydralisks at the expense of 1425/475 while protoss spends 1750/700 every minute and has to come up with 100+175+250+50+75+100 on top of that every 3 minutes. That is the definition of a build order advantage.
I'm not even mentioning what happens when zerg can develop the defiler tech tree with plague...
PS: 8 gate protoss can spend 5700/4800 more in total for 18 minutes and still not make any progress if upgrading at double forge vs single evolution chamber zerg with 4 hatcheries.
PS: what instead favours protoss is upgrading 2/1/0 after +2 attack. Ironically, +3 attack does not make dragoons kill hydralisks any faster. This way protoss is still slightly favoured while keeping balance.
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Netherlands5209 Posts
No one but you can (or should) read that shit. Either way goons fucking suck vs hydralisks and it's useless to theorize anything in isolation like that, because it will never happen in practice.
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Yeah, but you don't call the winner like I do. Don't expect too much from yourself. Protoss should go attack>attack>armor>attack>armor>armor>shield>shield>shield. Protoss attack upgrades should follow zerg carapace upgrades, two up but never three.
The zerg will go 3 missile and 3 carapace upgrades consecutively.
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On May 15 2025 17:33 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, but you don't call the winner like I do. Don't expect too much from yourself. Protoss should go attack>attack>armor>attack>armor>armor>shield>shield>shield. Protoss attack upgrades should follow zerg carapace upgrades, two up but never three.
The zerg will go 3 missile and 3 carapace upgrades consecutively.
okay but good luck fighting dragoons + high templars with hydras
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On May 15 2025 17:33 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, but you don't call the winner like I do. Don't expect too much from yourself. Protoss should go attack>attack>armor>attack>armor>armor>shield>shield>shield. Protoss attack upgrades should follow zerg carapace upgrades, two up but never three.
The zerg will go 3 missile and 3 carapace upgrades consecutively.
Let's assume that you're right in your calculations (even though I have not seen any math involving attack speed, production time, and unit cost). Even if you are correct about this interaction, all of your time and hard work is thrown out the window when you realize that other units exist and that upgrade breakpoints matter more for other units than they do in this interaction. Zealots need a +1 attack advantage to 2 shot Zerglings. Archons at +3 will 1 shot Zerglings at any Carapace value. And posting this nonsense to an English-speaking forum with the alleged hope that a Korean progamer who understands the game to an immeasurably greater degree than you do is nothing short of idiocy, though I will submit that you may have been joking and just decided to waste your own time - and the time of anyone trying to decipher what you wrote - as some sort of elaborate troll, in which case congrats, it worked. If that's not the case, I suggest that it would be of greater benefit to learn from BeSt and practice more, instead of theorycrafting, balance-whining and making hare-brained posts that no one can parse.
Ultimately, if your approach/"solution" to PvZ is so good, you should have plenty of replays of you crushing top level Zergs with it, right? ... Right???
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On May 17 2025 02:34 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2025 17:33 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, but you don't call the winner like I do. Don't expect too much from yourself. Protoss should go attack>attack>armor>attack>armor>armor>shield>shield>shield. Protoss attack upgrades should follow zerg carapace upgrades, two up but never three.
The zerg will go 3 missile and 3 carapace upgrades consecutively. Let's assume that you're right in your calculations (even though I have not seen any math involving attack speed, production time, and unit cost). Even if you are correct about this interaction, all of your time and hard work is thrown out the window when you realize that other units exist and that upgrade breakpoints matter more for other units than they do in this interaction. Zealots need a +1 attack advantage to 2 shot Zerglings. Archons at +3 will 1 shot Zerglings at any Carapace value. And posting this nonsense to an English-speaking forum with the alleged hope that a Korean progamer who understands the game to an immeasurably greater degree than you do is nothing short of idiocy, though I will submit that you may have been joking and just decided to waste your own time - and the time of anyone trying to decipher what you wrote - as some sort of elaborate troll, in which case congrats, it worked. If that's not the case, I suggest that it would be of greater benefit to learn from BeSt and practice more, instead of theorycrafting, balance-whining and making hare-brained posts that no one can parse. Ultimately, if your approach/"solution" to PvZ is so good, you should have plenty of replays of you crushing top level Zergs with it, right? ... Right???
I'm 40. I'm past playing. I'm like the retirees who have their teams like Boxer.
I can understand your doubts, but I did it for Ceasar 3 and Warcraft 3, too. Warcraft 3 is utter madness and it is manual. Caesar 3 has forced walking cheat which enable you to time units, so apm independent. If you are not informed it seems madness like Warcraft 3, too. Starcraft is neither. It has no cheats and it is not so hard that not everything is in lockstep(there are not buffs and nerfs, not as spell dependent, there is an economy element).
My post isn't pvz is just dragoons and hydralisks. My idea is the game is based on these permutations between units and I started solving from this interaction. This is just one tensor and I still haven't integrated melee units, although I can. You might not have seen it, but I solved a 4x4x4x4(attack*armor*shields*enemy attack variables) just to be able to make that comment. You couldn't believe the mental gymnastics involved, but there is a fifth element, zerg carapace upgrade I simplified by cancelling a protoss attack upgrade.
I first tried to write it down. Scratchpadding on excel turned out to be faster since I needed to reliably check the formula. I kept making conversion errors like multiplying by 1.2 instead of dividing by 0.8 and such. It is serious work for someone who doesn't use math except for gaming. Anyway, it is only good so far as explaining the best path forward. We can stay at 2005 and make gross macro errors like FE. I told you I hate that kind of still unproven errors. I like back to basics solid gameplay. It is hard explaining players like Soulkey and Best, but I find them honest and that is what I like about their play. Sure, they could try to be Hero, or Mini, but that takes you only so far. Some day you will have to prove your macro and that 0.001% is what I really believe in to be the winning element.
PS: you have the wrong idea. This isn't guesswork.
No one else is going to come and say preforge 7 hydralisks equal 6 dragoons and if you have two forges vs zerg's single evolution chamber, 19 hydralisks to equal 14 dragoons. An ai can do that, but we don't actually know if x units will beat y enemy units all the time. I get that we wouldn't make dragoons vs hydralisks, but how would we know that for sure? After all, shuttle bested queen in a remarkable fashion lately that people assumed was actually queen's throw. That is the superstition I want to change, it is just simple however we don't have the legend for it. No one has solved it, I mean.
PS: I play zerg why should I play protoss? I'm just trying to coach what protoss players have been doing wrong.
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On May 16 2025 15:25 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2025 17:33 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, but you don't call the winner like I do. Don't expect too much from yourself. Protoss should go attack>attack>armor>attack>armor>armor>shield>shield>shield. Protoss attack upgrades should follow zerg carapace upgrades, two up but never three.
The zerg will go 3 missile and 3 carapace upgrades consecutively. okay but good luck fighting dragoons + high templars with hydras
Sir, I'm trying to solve fringe cases since they are easier to pick apart. Hotboxes and multi unit compositions do tip the scales although I wonder if any player can hotbox '4' HTs into a perfect 2x2 storm simultaneously. We know Snow can fire reavers faster, let's see if anyone can rain down storms in a perfect 6x6 area. That is the kind of micro I want to examine.
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jesus. That guy makes fastest look fun no gonna lie.
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On May 20 2025 20:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:jesus. That guy makes fastest look fun no gonna lie.
He is an artist!!!
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I found something new today about BW !!!
Do you guys know you can EMP a comstat station ???
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On May 20 2025 22:41 prosatan wrote:
I found something new today about BW !!!
Do you guys know you can EMP a comstat station ???
You can ? That's pretty cool lol
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On May 20 2025 23:06 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2025 22:41 prosatan wrote:
I found something new today about BW !!!
Do you guys know you can EMP a comstat station ??? You can ? That's pretty cool lol
27 years and still learning something new !!
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EPT
