EPTBW General Discussion - Page 256
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
On November 27 2018 10:20 RWLabs wrote: Yes. Beating someone with scouts (or ghosts for that matter) means that you're so much better than your opponent that you can use a shitty unit and still win. It's like when you grossly outclass someone at tennis, so you play with your non-dominant hand. Ghosts actually have legitimate uses though, scouts have the problem that they do (because if you mass enough they're insane), but they're so expensive that it's better to build other units as it's less risky. | ||
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[AS]Rattus
434 Posts
going for scoutS in any matchup is kinda like going for bio in lategame tvt/tvp. | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
434 Posts
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
Going 2 levels further: Some Terrans claim that Turrets, for example, cost 180 minerals and not 150 (SCV could mine in the building time, they say). To that I also say that every Zerg building costs infinite minerals and infinite gas, since instead of morphing Drone could mine infinitely. Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad. | ||
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[AS]Rattus
434 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8947 Posts
On November 27 2018 19:37 chuDr3t4 wrote: Extrapolating that logic 1 level further, 1 Ultlralisk costs 1400 minerals 1100 gas. Going 2 levels further: Some Terrans claim that Turrets, for example, cost 180 minerals and not 150 (SCV could mine in the building time, they say). To that I also say that every Zerg building costs infinite minerals and infinite gas, since instead of morphing Drone could mine infinitely. Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad. not that i disagree completely with your point about the cost of scout speed, but the entirety of your above post is stupid. | ||
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Jealous
10422 Posts
On November 27 2018 19:37 chuDr3t4 wrote: Extrapolating that logic 1 level further, 1 Ultlralisk costs 1400 minerals 1100 gas. Going 2 levels further: Some Terrans claim that Turrets, for example, cost 180 minerals and not 150 (SCV could mine in the building time, they say). To that I also say that every Zerg building costs infinite minerals and infinite gas, since instead of morphing Drone could mine infinitely. Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad. I know we're just fooling around here but if you're gonna talk shit then at least know that a Turret costs 75 minerals. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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RWLabs
Korea (South)273 Posts
On November 27 2018 16:36 Qikz wrote: Ghosts actually have legitimate uses though, scouts have the problem that they do (because if you mass enough they're insane), but they're so expensive that it's better to build other units as it's less risky. True, but I would argue ghosts are good but only in extremely niche situations, like when the opponent is going carriers and for some reason you have a low number of factories, like Ample vs. Rain. And like Ample vs. Rain, the Protoss player can just switch to corsairs to neuter ghosts. On November 27 2018 19:18 chuDr3t4 wrote: I get that Protoss players are so accustomed to game being easy, but scout speed(200/200) is not EXTREMELY costly. For Zergs, in comparison, its just another tuesday, normal price for unit to go from garbage to playable. Protoss players don't complain about having to upgrade Psionic Storm (200/200) for high templars either. The issue with scouts is multifaceted. It's not just the fact they require fleet beacon or the speed upgrade to be remotely useful, they suck because they're terribly cost ineffective. For comparison, you can get a carrier with full interceptors for the cost of two scouts. Despite the exorbitant cost of the upgrades, tech, and the unit, they have lower anti-ground attack than a mutalisk. Really, the only thing scouts are good at is taking out capital ships due to their excellent anti-air and bulk, but who in the right mind goes battlecruisers or carriers against Protoss when they have dragoons and dark archons? In short, the scout is a unit that requires a costly upgrade to be moderately useful, is costly to produce, needs to be massed before being used (in contrast to a high templar, where one or two complements your army nicely), and excels at a role that doesn't need to be filled. It is the ultimate garbage unit. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany915 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
434 Posts
they could be used against t to harrass, but against z, they still die to the first scourges without the speed upgrade maybe the first one could do smth cause of the short building time, but i don't see scouts as being one of the best units even then | ||
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RWLabs
Korea (South)273 Posts
I'd think you'd see strategies like the above in professional play every once in a while at least. Defend expansions with reaver/templar, and use scouts to cut hydras and kill drones. As for counterplay, you could counter it with ensnare + scourge, and I'm not how useful it'd be in PvT. | ||
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WaterSerpentM
United Kingdom141 Posts
Like zergs can meme with mutas Scouts are expensive I guess Protoss can’t have it all | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5917 Posts
On November 27 2018 03:26 Shiroime wrote: Hi everyone, I don't know if it's the place to post such message, but I'm a new T player, I started the game 2 months ago, i'm trying to play on the ladder or community 1v1 but I almost always lose :/. I want to practice and this is why i'm searching any player who would like to train time to time, especially Z and P players.. I'm currently E rank around 1200 MMR and i'm located in Europe(France). Just add me on battle.net(Shiroime) or in game(A_r_t_h_a_s). Also if I have question, what should you look in a replay as a noob player ? Let me explain, sometime I lose and I watch the replay to understand why, but i'm unable to understand if it's due to one factor or many factor, is it the fact that I pushed too early ? too late ? what are theses factors, that's my question ? Thanks in advance. I highly recommend learning the fundamentals of BW from Day[9]'s channel. He discusses what to look for in each match-up, as well as how to analyze your games. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgmCLtUkEutKY8IlwyVCUFoRtgQe3LCf1 As for the particular build orders, I'd stick to just one flexible opening, such as +1 5 Rax in TvZ (from Liquipedia): 9 Supply 11 Scout 11 Barracks 15 Supply Depot (see note) 18 CC Refinery @100 Gas - Pull all SCVs off gas Supply Depot Engineering Bay @100% Engineering Bay - +1 Weapons Bunker? Academy and put SCVs back on gas 4 additional Barracks (see Note) Comsats @ ~50 supply Supply Depot @16-20 Marines and 4-5 Medics move out Factory Turrets Here's a guide by Flash explaining how it works in practice: The gist of it: GOALS: - try to deny Z expansions/force them to make units instead of Drones by posturing with your units - get a natural expansion - get 2 Starports - get a 3rd base - @3-4 Vessels make 2 additional Factories + start making Vults - start switching to mech - get to 7 Factories with 4 add-ons + start making Tanks - start splitting the map by securing a second main HOW TO NOT DIE: - 3 Medics per 12 Marines ( - scan for Mutas/Lurkers - don't lose M&M to Mutaling (keep some M&M in main if Mutas are pesky; combine your forces if you are not harassed) - 5 Siege Tanks + wall-in are very good at securing your second main - map control with Vultures + Mines - scan for Hive - ALWAYS leap-frog your Tanks (keep some of them sieged when moving others to a desired position) | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
On November 27 2018 23:42 Jealous wrote: I know we're just fooling around here but if you're gonna talk shit then at least know that a Turret costs 75 minerals. Oh well, gone are the days when I remembered every statistic from every unit, building and ability and every obscure interaction from every race in the game. We were so obsessed we did trivia to each other when we were not playing BW in the local "PCBang". Nowadays I struggle to remember every building cost for race I play(had to look up how much Ultra Cavern and Queen's Nest cost to compile my Ultralisk price). Doesn't change my thoughts about retarded shit ppl write on forums. | ||
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[AS]Rattus
434 Posts
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Jealous
10422 Posts
On November 28 2018 04:06 chuDr3t4 wrote: Oh well, gone are the days when I remembered every statistic from every unit, building and ability and every obscure interaction from every race in the game. We were so obsessed we did trivia to each other when we were not playing BW in the local "PCBang". Nowadays I struggle to remember every building cost for race I play(had to look up how much Ultra Cavern and Queen's Nest cost to compile my Ultralisk price). Doesn't change my thoughts about retarded shit ppl write on forums. On November 28 2018 04:34 [AS]Rattus wrote: wait, you were serious? :> My thoughts exactly, I thought I would join in on the fun... | ||
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