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Rather than go through the list I'm just gonna talk about what should be different from this season.
I.) Dont use BWCL
We need more information displayed in the OP rather than a 3rd party site. So imo we should return to how it was in S1/S2.
II.) OP needs to be updated, allow others to help you if you dont have the time.
We need at the minimum a list of all the teams, their players, their races, their iccup and TL ids, and indicator of who the captain is, as well as an updated liquipedia page. There are people who have been trying to help you with this so if you dont have the time to do everything, use them!
III.) Everyone has to sign up
Captain's shouldn't be able to sign up their entire team. If a person is active, they can spare the time to sign up again.
New players/late signups should be handled by the organizers and sent to the least active teams.
IV.) Stricter rules and enforcement for late lineups/pp/match results
Maybe we need to pm all the captains to make it absolutely clear what's expected of them.
V.) No off weeks.
It's not as if they reduce W.O.s because you can't choose when you have weeks off, they only serve to lower team activity and increase confusion.
VI.) Downsize if we have to.
Better to have 6 active teams, maybe even with a bo7 ace format, than 8 teams with 2-4 inactive ones.
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On September 14 2012 01:46 L3gendary wrote:
III.) Everyone has to sign up
Captain's shouldn't be able to sign up their entire team. If a person is active, they can spare the time to sign up again.
New players/late signups should be handled by the organizers and sent to the least active teams.
I'm telling you man.. Google docs are the shit. Everyone can edit (you can turn edits off for non captains if you want), everyone can see, everyone can communicate and post the lineup and maybe even the time the game is going to be played. I've used docs for both school and for work and can tell you its a lifesaver and amazing for keeping everyone on the same page.
Shot in the dark, but:
Poll: Google docsYes (9) 82% No (2) 18% 11 total votes Your vote: Google docs (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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If it were cheap I'd suggest for us to donate towards a kickstarter to increase the prizepool and more importantly buy a sponsored thread encouraging SC2 players to play DRTL.
I don't know to what extent this would actually work because I don't know much about marketing, but I don't really know where else we could expand our demographic to.
Having someone like nukethestars with a couple thousand of very casual viewers give a shout-out to the league and encourage people to download BW, Play on ICCUp and join DRTL/DRIL, but as I've said I don't know much about marketing.
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On September 14 2012 00:40 EchOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 23:13 empty.bottle wrote:
Also I think that we as players could edit liquipedia with the results. I think Liquipedia, this forum, or any venue where players can edit/update their results commonly is good (assuming accountability/verifiability) in case designated Captains go MIA or anything like that. One key point I'd like to point out is that everyone following or participating in an event wants to see both lineups and results updated regularly. An event loses a lot of hype and interest when you go to the OP for weeks and it appears as if nothing has actually happened. I don't know what the best way is, but having an accessible, updated display of "What matches are coming for this week?" and "What matches have been played/how did they go/here's where to watch them." at the very least should be high on the goal list. Nikon did a great job with this in Season 2 where every week we would see new lineups, new results, and new replay packs posted to the OP. [...]
Another few things that come to mind:
TL.net (page) sucks ball to update it in one thread, opening a thread for each week doesn't solve the problem either but makes it a bit better. Only the OP can edit his first post obviously, hence: even if there two or three people the first post can't be updated. If the other two would just post it in a new thread / an overall thread it could take some time to get the information if you're just an ordinary player, as many people would respond and/or other threads would drown the DRTL Week X post. Any automated system / page would rock, but it seems BWCL didn't work out and there is no other platform I can think of that would offer a similar system. Assuming that there would be more than one person a few things might work:
1) the "only use TL.net system": register a new account (DRTL or something) and share it with 2-3 persons. Whoever is available updates the first post, messages the people and so on. I don't know what TL.net rules say on that, especially if you have administrators with a negative warn/ban history. I guess you'd ask politely and tell them how and why you need such an account, before you run into things you could avoid.
2) Use Liquipedia. Rules, Mappacks and so on are in the R&S thread, the results can be there too, but don't need to be. A big link on top or at the bottom links to the Liquipedia page. This will tell you the results (which any team leader can upate) and maybe link to replay packs (upload at mediafire and such). That's doable. However, that needs the players and the team's managers support. And it should be the duty of a person to update these posts, if (let's say the) winning team misses to update LP within X days, they will receive some sort of punishment.
3) Use google's spreadsheets. Multiple admins could share an email adress and update tables on their google mail. This table could be viewed by everyone, but edited by only a few. It would be linked in the R&S thread, quite similar to Option 1.
€: lol sniped by Kal_rA :x
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^i like the liquipedia option too.. everyone has access and can edit (and it might lead to you making edits on other pages too!)
Its just not as straightforward as the googledocs, but since its so closely tied to tl it could work nicely.
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On September 14 2012 01:52 Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 01:46 L3gendary wrote:
III.) Everyone has to sign up
Captain's shouldn't be able to sign up their entire team. If a person is active, they can spare the time to sign up again.
New players/late signups should be handled by the organizers and sent to the least active teams. I'm telling you man.. Google docs are the shit. Everyone can edit (you can turn edits off for non captains if you want), everyone can see, everyone can communicate and post the lineup and maybe even the time the game is going to be played. I've used docs for both school and for work and can tell you its a lifesaver and amazing for keeping everyone on the same page.
It's just gonna be another 3rd party site that some will use, most won't. I don't really see what it has to do with signups anyway.
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Players wouldn't have to use it, it's more a way to help out organizers to update their scores. You can see that by clicking on it, no sign-ups necessary. Only if you actually want to update scores etc. as non-official staff, you'd need an account. So, either do it the hardcore version (like Kal_rA said), or only as support for coverage purposes in addition to TL.net threads.
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Google Docs is actually incredibly easy to use, so I endorse it.
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I voted Proleague scoring, but I don't actually know what it is. What I'd like is football-style scoring: 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss.
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Draws aren't even possible in a Bo5 or Bo7 BW series, so I don't see the point of a system that accommodates for draws.
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On September 14 2012 02:34 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 01:52 Kal_rA wrote:On September 14 2012 01:46 L3gendary wrote:
III.) Everyone has to sign up
Captain's shouldn't be able to sign up their entire team. If a person is active, they can spare the time to sign up again.
New players/late signups should be handled by the organizers and sent to the least active teams. I'm telling you man.. Google docs are the shit. Everyone can edit (you can turn edits off for non captains if you want), everyone can see, everyone can communicate and post the lineup and maybe even the time the game is going to be played. I've used docs for both school and for work and can tell you its a lifesaver and amazing for keeping everyone on the same page. It's just gonna be another 3rd party site that some will use, most won't. I don't really see what it has to do with signups anyway.
Except.... you don't need tedious sign ups and is accessible pretty much anywhere.
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I was hoping to play next season, so there's +1 :D
Ideally I'd also do a few battle reports now and then, tiny bits of extra exposure cant hurt ^^
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United States11390 Posts
On September 14 2012 01:45 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 00:50 Kal_rA wrote:
I think the most important thing is to have two or more admins and have the captains on top of their shit. Also skype accounts for all captains and admins should be a must so they can stay in touch easy and have a set place to ping eachother to schedule stuff. 2 reps from each team might also be an option. I agree that this is the most important thing. As pucca said, with good communication, a lot of problems can be avoided.
Yeah, at the very least, should add cobaltblu as an admin for the league.
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I endorse and feel the same way about these points.
On September 14 2012 01:46 L3gendary wrote:
I.) Dont use BWCLDont use BWCLDont use BWCLDont use BWCLDont use BWCL
II.) OP needs to be updated, allow others to help you if you dont have the time.
III.) Everyone has to sign up
On September 14 2012 02:02 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
2) Use Liquipedia. Rules, Mappacks and so on are in the R&S thread, the results can be there too, but don't need to be. A big link on top or at the bottom links to the Liquipedia page. This will tell you the results (which any team leader can upate) and maybe link to replay packs (upload at mediafire and such).
I agree with 2Pacalypse- on the match format, except i think BO1 is better than BO3:
3) Match format
- Four bo1 1v1s games
- One bo1 2v2 game (2v2 game can be played by same players who played 1v1)
Also i think the time works better as it was in season 2. Saturday because of time zones saturday is best beacuse it is in the middle of the week-end for almost everybody, and i can move the DRIT to Sunday for future seasons (if there will be future seasons)
Season 2 worked quite well imo. People individually signed up, at the start of the season a player-pick like season 2 would be nice. (i made a mistake here signing up despa, but i knew all that we where all active and was hyped)
Also, i think Nikon should reserve the right to deny team entries that in previous seasons have fallen apart. If they do want to enter, make them change names at least.
Admin(s) of the tournament must do 3 fundamental things:
- Update OP at least once a week.
- Provide regular replay packs [submitted by the captain of the winning team] for casting and player browsing
- Be the intermediary for the lineups.
- resolve issues as they come along.
In season 2 you did a great job with all of this. This season you where alone.
I don' t think any 1 person is enough to do all this. I already have trouble with 32 players, with 60+ its impossible. So you need more admins. As i stated before i am willing to help as an admin, and if you don' t want that you need at least other 2 serious people who are willing to commit time and effort to that.
And as for rules and penalties, i have to be honest, i never saw anyone enforcing them. Okay its difficult to find a balance beetwen being stricted and being more free, but not being stricted at all is no good, and not being free at all is no good.
Sometimes you gotta put your foot down. Sometimes you gotta let it be. This balance is key to being a good admin.
With these things, i think season 4 will work efficently.
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All I know is, seasons 1 and 2 were managed a lot better in terms of the league itself (season 1 had really poor team management. T1 missed playoffs with 1 win and we had more than 1 wo losses with one being we take all the played sets and we still lose because only 2 people showed up). Season 2 is the best imo, in terms of team and league management, BWCL just... I don't know. Sucks. That's all I can say about BWCL thing.
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On September 14 2012 20:22 Djagulingu wrote:
All I know is, seasons 1 and 2 were managed a lot better in terms of the league itself (season 1 had really poor team management. T1 missed playoffs with 1 win and we had more than 1 wo losses with one being we take all the played sets and we still lose because only 2 people showed up). Season 2 is the best imo, in terms of team and league management, BWCL just... I don't know. Sucks. That's all I can say about BWCL thing.
If you look at the leagues from a management point of view, while season 1 had very bad participation and was extremely spotty for most captains, it still was very well run and maintained which is kind of why there was a huge influx of players for season 2... Saying that the league which prompted the highest player increase was not the best is a flaw in terms of saving a player base.
After season 1, many top caliber coaches and players wanted to help out with DRTL because they saw it as a league of good potential, but they quickly withdrew in Season 2 for the most part as far as I can tell.
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Due to the inability to users who regularly update LP I'd say use the Google Doc have the administrator or find someone who can update LP once a week by looking at the organized Google doc whether it be a spread sheet or just a document. Also Google Docs can allow you to place notes inside to each match so if there was a w/o one can describe the reasoning instead of digging and digging in 10 pages of thread discussion. Use both is what I am saying.
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I won't comment on the whole thing and I haven't read much of the replies yet either, but I wanted to point out that managing a 5 player team vs. a 3 player team is something entirely different. If the matches were BO3s, I wouldn't be surprised if in the end, more players/games would've been played overall. If this is constantly causing teams to disband/discouraging people to play in the league, it might be worth considering a change.
I'm not saying this is the issue behind it (actually I've no idea), these are just my thoughts watching Birdie doing a great job of operating Stealth Bunnies. There's not a lot of people who have enough time/dedication and the right approach to do this, and even if there's someone like that, one lazy unreliable player can still ruin the whole thing. This is something you would see happen a lot less in a 3 player team as everyone knows each other well and interact on a daily basis anyway (ideally).
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Here's a first draft of the ELO ranks I promised: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368754
Three player teams would mean that if 60 players sign up, that's 20 teams; and 60 players is considered a relatively small number. Even if the teams total 5 players to provide for people who can't make it, if we manage 100 players next season, that's still 20 teams. 12 teams would be more doable if we don't get many but if we do get a lot, Bo5 is much better.
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Alright, I read the replies, and the general sentiment is pretty clear. I'm going to reread everything after today's games and form a general frame of operations and such.
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EPT
