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Power Rank Discussion Thread - Page 23

Forum Index > BW General
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Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5617 Posts
February 08 2012 09:47 GMT
#441
of course it is harder to be a rookie at a time when there are only 8 teams playing, as compared with when there were 12. the level of play in proleague has gone up absurdly much - there are no weak teams left.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#442
On February 08 2012 16:15 Iplaythings wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2012 14:52 baubo wrote:
On February 08 2012 09:57 VGhost wrote:
But on the other hand, the newer players aren't worse than Flash and maybe Jaedong: Bisu still probably has the potential to be better but isn't displaying it now. But look at the rest of the old guard: Light may have his stellar TvZ and good TvT, but there's the nagging feeling Bogus (say) is a more complete player. Soulkey has been (at least arguably) better than Jaedong so far this year. Sea is flat out bad right now; free is worse; Calm struggles; the best Protoss atm is Stats by about a mile (and then Jangbi... I guess?). Stork barely had a winning record last year and doesn't look better this.


It's statement like these that makes me miss the OSL/MSL even more. If only Sea had prospered in the days of no SL, we just might be talking about him like the 2nd best terran to exist on the planet.

People also did that in times of when Fantasy was underperforming, remember february last year with Flash / Light / Sea at the 1 / 2 / 3..

Stats is performing better than stork and he is more well rounded than Bisu.
Without the PL people woulda talked of Bisu lastyear as the mostslumping person along with Free and Kal last year.


I think you mean Feb 2010, and being ranked top 3 on the PR on one particular month doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Back in the days before PL, tournaments mostly started at the Ro16, but there were more of them. It wasn't just OSL and MSL, although those two were already the most prestigious by the time PL got going. So it's hard to say exactly where Bisu would have ended up in the rankings.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
February 08 2012 12:15 GMT
#443
Ouch, the -9 for Jangbi just looks so painful.

Stats at #2 makes me happy :3
:)
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
February 09 2012 01:23 GMT
#444
You know who's underrated right now methinks? Movie. Losses this season are to Stork, Fantasy, and SK. Not sure if CJ has another game or not and too lazy to check calendar right now, but if Movie gets sent out again I'll have my eyes on him as a possible contender for the #10 spot. Still leaning towards Turn though.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 03:04:45
February 09 2012 03:01 GMT
#445
Movie, Effort, and Leta all suffer from a disease known as CJ Syndrome.

That team has way to many players (yet did poorly in Round 2). Those players all have winning records, but are seen so infrequenly that it is hard to judge.

CJ is done for the round, so Movie and Leta only played in 3 of their teams 7 matches that round. 3 games is really not enough to rank someone who did not make the previous PR, unless they go 3-0 over fairly good competition (such as Turn did). That's the price to pay for being a member of CJ Entus. If Movie wants to be a star he should join the Air Force.

Effort played in 4 games. He also played in 6 games last round, compared to Movie and Leta who played in 4 that round. That's enough for effort, but Movie, no, imo.

Though I really like his play so far, and think he should get a CBNC at the very least (and I wouldn't crucify Flamewheel for giving him a spot, I just think he can't make a name for himself if he's gonna play in a minority of his team's matches).
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
February 09 2012 04:53 GMT
#446
New games may be the most important factor in PR, but ignoring the rest of the season wouldn't be good either. A lot of players only get to play 4-5 games per round. Even a player who is planned to be fielded every time (like Flash or Fantasy) doesn't always get to play.

I'm pretty sure the only players to have played every game so far are Bisu and Stork.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 05:09:44
February 09 2012 05:05 GMT
#447
Light and ZerO have as well, though I see why you'd overlook those two.

I'm not sure how your first line applies to Movie. He played 4 games last round, and went 2-2. That's nothing special, especially considering his two wins: PvT wins over Sea and Light are basically auto-wins this season. He didn't even get a CBNC for this ranking. So I agree with you completely, which is why I said 3 games is not enough unless you got a spot on last rank or are undefeated (or maybe destroy Flash). I just can't see Movie going from no consideration in the last PR, goes 2-1, and suddenly makes the top 10. But if he does, I won't be mad or anything, as I say he's definitely a top 15 player this season.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3621 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 03:08:05
February 10 2012 03:06 GMT
#448
I was wondering how players' (overall) records broke down, so I ran a stupid-simple sort (win^2/games) on current records, which produced the following top ten over the PL season so far:

1. Flash (10-0)
2. fantasy (9-1)
3. Neo.G_SoulKey (9-3)
4. Last (8-2)
5. Stork (9-4)
6. Stats (8-3)
7. Bisu (9-5)
8. Jaedong (7-5)
9. TurN (4-0)
10. BeSt (7-6)

The next three are EffOrt (6-4), Leta (5-3), BaBy (5-4), followed by Brave, Crazy-Hydra, and Calm (all at 4-2). Then we get into non-winning records or not as many games (or both), the exception being Movie's 4-3.

All the usual disclaimers about pure stats, not taking game quality or opponents into account, etc. etc. apply, probably double since this isn't even an analysis just the second thing I worked up to start to approximate quality. On the other hand, I do expect the PR and CNBC to basically draw from that top sixteen, with possible exceptions for these players: Hydra (?), Jangbi (??), Movie (?), Bogus (???).
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
February 10 2012 03:35 GMT
#449
Why win^2?
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Release
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4397 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 03:36:47
February 10 2012 03:36 GMT
#450
On February 10 2012 12:06 VGhost wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I was wondering how players' (overall) records broke down, so I ran a stupid-simple sort (win^2/games) on current records, which produced the following top ten over the PL season so far:

1. Flash (10-0)
2. fantasy (9-1)
3. Neo.G_SoulKey (9-3)
4. Last (8-2)
5. Stork (9-4)
6. Stats (8-3)
7. Bisu (9-5)
8. Jaedong (7-5)
9. TurN (4-0)
10. BeSt (7-6)

The next three are EffOrt (6-4), Leta (5-3), BaBy (5-4), followed by Brave, Crazy-Hydra, and Calm (all at 4-2). Then we get into non-winning records or not as many games (or both), the exception being Movie's 4-3.

All the usual disclaimers about pure stats, not taking game quality or opponents into account, etc. etc. apply, probably double since this isn't even an analysis just the second thing I worked up to start to approximate quality. On the other hand, I do expect the PR and CNBC to basically draw from that top sixteen, with possible exceptions for these players: Hydra (?), Jangbi (??), Movie (?), Bogus (???).

I think putting turn above jaedong and bisu would be better. Turn just hasn't been given enough chances.

On February 10 2012 12:35 Mortality wrote:
Why win^2?

So that people with a good number of wins get recognized over people who has 1-0
☺
Mirabel_
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1768 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 03:49:06
February 10 2012 03:48 GMT
#451
On February 10 2012 12:06 VGhost wrote:
I was wondering how players' (overall) records broke down, so I ran a stupid-simple sort (win^2/games) on current records, which produced the following top ten over the PL season so far:

1. Flash (10-0)
2. fantasy (9-1)
3. Neo.G_SoulKey (9-3)
4. Last (8-2)
5. Stork (9-4)
6. Stats (8-3)
7. Bisu (9-5)
8. Jaedong (7-5)
9. TurN (4-0)
10. BeSt (7-6)

The next three are EffOrt (6-4), Leta (5-3), BaBy (5-4), followed by Brave, Crazy-Hydra, and Calm (all at 4-2). Then we get into non-winning records or not as many games (or both), the exception being Movie's 4-3.

All the usual disclaimers about pure stats, not taking game quality or opponents into account, etc. etc. apply, probably double since this isn't even an analysis just the second thing I worked up to start to approximate quality. On the other hand, I do expect the PR and CNBC to basically draw from that top sixteen, with possible exceptions for these players: Hydra (?), Jangbi (??), Movie (?), Bogus (???).

Using the Elo system the actual top 10 are
1. (T)Flash
2. (T)Fantasy
---------------
3. (Z)Neo.G_Soulkey
4. (T)Last
5. (T)TurN
6. (P)Stork
7. (P)Stats
8. (P)Bisu
---------------
9. (Z)Crazy-Hydra
10. (Z)Shine

Also of note are three map-specific 4-0s. Flash and (Z)ZerO have won four games and remained undefeated on Electric Circuit, and Soulkey has gone 4-0 on Sniper Ridge. I think ZerO is CBNC material until he loses on that map.
get stronger play longer
pvzvt
Profile Joined October 2009
Israel2097 Posts
February 10 2012 04:23 GMT
#452
dont forget jaehoon is 5-2
i say we dust off and nuke it from orbit
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
February 10 2012 04:31 GMT
#453
Mini and Last really pwning as new players
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
WTFTerran
Profile Joined November 2011
Russian Federation286 Posts
February 10 2012 04:32 GMT
#454
top 5 T by TL pts:
flash
fantasy
bogus
leta
baby

top 5 T:
bisu
stats
movie
stork
jangbi

top 5 Z:
Jaedong
SK
hydra
effort
zero


nice results i think
Bogus, MKP, Bomber FTW!
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
February 10 2012 05:06 GMT
#455
ELO works badly with small sample sizes. While it's true that any measurement suffers with lack of sample size, ELO imo suffers more than most.

Given how few games there are, I really feel just some combination of record and watching actual play would be enough.
Meh
Mirabel_
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1768 Posts
February 10 2012 06:49 GMT
#456
On February 10 2012 14:06 baubo wrote:
ELO works badly with small sample sizes. While it's true that any measurement suffers with lack of sample size, ELO imo suffers more than most.

Given how few games there are, I really feel just some combination of record and watching actual play would be enough.

True, I was only addenduming his point with that post.

My actual opinion is in the more relevant current power rank commentary.
get stronger play longer
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3621 Posts
February 10 2012 11:21 GMT
#457
On February 10 2012 13:23 pvzvt wrote:
dont forget jaehoon is 5-2


Much as I'd love to see Jaeoon on the PR again, he's 5-6 overall and at only *4-2 since the last PR... I'm not sure I could justify that, but flamewheel's welcome to try.

On February 10 2012 12:35 Mortality wrote:
Why win^2?


It was my guess at trying to balance games vs win-rate. I'm not trying to say it's perfect, but for something stupidly easy to calculate it seemed to do an okay job.
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Dakkas
Profile Joined October 2010
2550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 14:35:59
February 11 2012 14:34 GMT
#458
You also need to see the people he lost to; Bisu, Stork and Flash. He's hard arguably the hardest opponents and he either loses to an S-class player or gets cheesed (Brave and Hoejja)

He deserves a CBNC
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 19:17:46
February 11 2012 19:02 GMT
#459
So Round 2 is over. I hope Flamewheel gives some indication of what he plans to do, since now is the prime time to sneak out a Round 2 PR before Round 3 starts later today.

Here's what I'm feeling.

The top 2 cannot be questioned at the moment, imo:

1. Flash - Don't even try to argue this one.
2. Fantasy - Ditto.

The rest have some leeway, but here's my picks:

3/4 - Soulkey or Stats (whichever order)
5 - Bisu
6/7 - Last or Stork (whichever order)
8/9/10/CBNC - Brave, Bogus, Effort, Jaedong, Jaehoon, Turn (whichever order)

Maaaayyybe CBNC (and a very weak chance at #10) - Best, Leta, Movie

Bisu may have an argument for #3 as well, but I'm not sure I really felt much from him this round, though his record was very good of course. Last kinda faltered in his TvT aura and although Stork went only 4-3 this round (as did Last), but he did play Flash and Fantasy, so what's a poor toss to do? I could see either having a good argument to be placed over the other.

Jaedong is getting the W's recently, so I'm fine with him in the top 10 if there's good rational for it. Though Jaehoon makes a very strong case, and probably should make the top 10 unless his reputation precedes him.

I'm not sure how much consideration Brave has been given, but he has redeemed himself for his fail game against Hydra last round. Pure W/L he went 4-1 this round which is impressive, but his competition was certainly not the strongest.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
Fishmalk
Profile Joined November 2010
74 Posts
February 11 2012 19:23 GMT
#460
Jaehoon deserves a low spot. His overall record for this season is unspectacular, but he has had one of the strongest lists of opponents, and his last two games at least were very convincing wins.
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