On September 27 2011 22:43 TheButtonmen wrote: SC2 player here.
My issues with watching BW are;
A) Your community treats the SC2 community like shit, you're not making any friends. B) You guys may love the Korean commentators but if you want new blood you need good, active english commentators. C) Streamers, you need more/better featured streamers. I don't mean quality of play because lets be honest I sure as hell can't tell the difference between a B and a B+ player; I mean streamers who are entertaining / engaging ala Destiny. D) A way to play BW with people of equal skill level (automated matchmaking, sustained smurf removal efforts, reworking the tier system (expand D into more then +/-, it's the vast majority of the player base so why waste so many tiers into seperating such the rest (a small % of the player base)). E) Community, partially addressed in A) but also you guys need leaders with charisma. People like Day[9], DjWheat who generate content and gives the community something to rally around, it's far to split right now. F) Far too much of the BW base on TL is focused on Korea, sure they might be the best but if you want new blood then you need devote a lot of attention to incredibly low level play. D only tournaments, high skill level players who spend time coaching/explaining/writing guides and so on. G) An entry point; for SC2 I can simply point people at Day[9] as an entry point to the scene. Who can you point prospective BW people at? H) A condensed scene, ICCup, fish, brain what? Way to split, you need a good mass of new newbies who can all play with each other if you want to drive interest. Pick one and rally around it, you won't get enough new blood to fill three things. H) A hook, why should I swap over? I already have more content then I could ever watch in the SC2 scene and as much as you guys like to circle jerk each other with how much better BW is then SC2 guess what? If you aren't already a BW fan then that's not a very convincing reason to watch. Give people reasons, make (english) hi-light reels, make articles that showcase fun/exciting BW games (contact whoever wrote the Savior article and beg them to write for you, that was one damned good read), throw noob only events.
Lets respond to these one by one shall we.
A) We don't treat the sc2 community like anything. we ignore it. Its people who come in here and troll the bw forums insulting our game. We get defensive and then attack back. Generally its the sc2 community that treats us like shit.
Lots of BW trolls pop into the SC2 forums now and then, just as SC2 trolls pop into the BW forum. Most of the BW trolls are concern trolls, while the SC2 trolls are 'LOL SC2 REPLACING BW LOLOLOLOL". Neither are indicative of their communities.
B) We have matches that are casted all the time by people like Sayle, crooked (don't know if still active) and a few more. For live events we have had people do english streams, to be unsucessful.
C) we have many great streamers. Just because you cannot tell between B- and B+. That is something that you need to learn about. and auctally pay attention to each player and you can clearly see the differnces.
While I'm getting a slight whiff of troll from theButtonmen, it's true that BW could really use a good face of the community type person. There are people who don't like SC2 much who like day[9]. We need one of those from BW
D) no automatchmaking in the bw client. The current system works fine and during the right times you can find a game pretty easily. the letter system has been around for ages. It won't change. and tbh I'm glad it won't. Its not like sc2 where a new league comes out every month or two with a new shiny icon and what blizzard describes as "shiny and pretty colours,".
I don't know what you're talking about with the bolded stuff. If you can't open your ports for whatever reason, though, it is fucking impossible to join a game in ICCUP, and it's generally a smurf at the low levels. Nothing in the universe is more irritating then spending 40 minutes trying to find a game only to get rushed. I speak from experience. Really nothing we can do there, though.
E) we have had a lot of things happen here and there. with projects being taken up by a lot of players to make things happen. Right now the community itself is rather divided so uniting the community would have to happen before this would ever happen
The BW community is too busy feeling sorry for itself to do anything productive, useful, or fun. Excepting Game and the sponsors, the BW community is pretty useless at helping BW.
F) This has been done countless times and auctally is done many times a month with iccup, and people here also writing guides. Auctally i've seen almost 10-15 since thebeginning of the year.
You've seen low-level BW tournaments? Links? I'm honestly interested.
G) Day[9] did 100+ BW dailies. so we often tell people to check out his bw dailies. other than that we have a ton of vods and such out by sayle. and a few by imbatoss.
H) sc2 doesn't even have a condensed scene lol. 5 different regions if I remember correctly. we have 4 if you count bnet as one. for lower level players, iccup has always been where to go. with fish and brian being for more experinced players.
I'm not actually arguing with you, and have no objections to this point. I just didn't want to skip it because I'm responding to everything else .
H2) bw doesn't have things that make pretty colours and make big booms like sc2. Simply speaking. If you want to play a better, more polished game that is perfectly balanced with such a large amount of depth. Play bw.
If you want to play a game that has pretty colours and units that make pretty lazers that go BOOM. If you want to play a game that gets changed every month or two. If you want to play a game with very little depth. Then play sc2. We can't change the game for anyone. Nor do I think we would want to.
See, this attitude isn't helping BW. At all. "Because SC2 is for inbred retards" doesn't convince SC2 players to play BW, it convinces them not to because the community presents itself as a bunch of hipsters.
If you want articles. we have new articles springing up all the time. Just people don't notice them. Not our fault that people ignore all bw articles for the sc2 ones.
On September 27 2011 23:52 blubbdavid wrote: G)Pimpest Plays
Pimpest play videos are probably the best ads for BW viewership (if maybe not playing it) there are. This is the kind of thing BW fans need to make and post to Reddit and stuff.
If it was so impossible to join games, I'm wondering how people join my games in under 5 minutes when I host. This is at D/D+/C- though, higher up sure it's hard to find games. Also op teamliquid has a fair number of people, when it's not busy being AFK.
Also, good job in not acknowledging all the hard work of people who write the featured news after every proleague round, all the people who translate interviews and also all the people who keep us up to date on BW happenings like Ryo (Have you read his MBC blogs?). You are also forgetting motrika's dedication to uploading vods on youtube.
On September 28 2011 00:25 Termit wrote: I've been trying to get some of my sc2 friends to play some BW (they watch OSL and stuff when I give them link to streams and they seem to enjoy the gameplay and everything) and they have no problems with graphics and that the game is old since we have been playing old games like dota and cs for many years. But their problem is that the mechanics is just so hard if you come from SC2.
The UI and mechanics is just so comfortable in that game and you can rely on like 3-4 hotkeys and not even have under 100 apm to actually win on a high level (by ladder standard). Imagine to come to BW where you don't have enough hotkeys and you have to remake your hotkeys thru the game all the time and you can't select more than 12 units etc. That scares alot of potential new comers to BW away I think. And there is not much to do about that. :/
I maintain it's a community thing. There needs to be more stuff for low-level players to do, and then they'll play more and improve naturally. If you want to play Brood War even at a D-on-ICCUP level, you need to study and grind and do a lot of stuff that honestly isn't very fun. It's really hard to enjoy BW if you're not good at it. It's hard to get good at it if you don't enjoy it.
But I think the solution is to just make it more fun. Get a weekly Big Game Hunters 2v2v2v2 going. I'd play that. Get a monday funday thing going. We need a way for low-level players to dick around, find out that the game is fun, and then try to improve.
I don't think "Brood War" as a game is inaccessible, but I do think "competitive 1v1 Brood War" is pretty hard to get into from scratch. A noncompetitive entry point can go a long way. The Island Map tournaments are good. The Ribbon Classic was good (ego trip!), the tournament I'm sponsoring next month maybe less so, but the one after that will be sufficiently silly.
It just needs and entry point and constant exposure in other scenes, like r/starcraft and even r/gaming, among others.
On September 27 2011 22:43 TheButtonmen wrote: SC2 player here.
My issues with watching BW are;
A) Your community treats the SC2 community like shit, you're not making any friends. B) You guys may love the Korean commentators but if you want new blood you need good, active english commentators. C) Streamers, you need more/better featured streamers. I don't mean quality of play because lets be honest I sure as hell can't tell the difference between a B and a B+ player; I mean streamers who are entertaining / engaging ala Destiny. D) A way to play BW with people of equal skill level (automated matchmaking, sustained smurf removal efforts, reworking the tier system (expand D into more then +/-, it's the vast majority of the player base so why waste so many tiers into seperating such the rest (a small % of the player base)). E) Community, partially addressed in A) but also you guys need leaders with charisma. People like Day[9], DjWheat who generate content and gives the community something to rally around, it's far to split right now. F) Far too much of the BW base on TL is focused on Korea, sure they might be the best but if you want new blood then you need devote a lot of attention to incredibly low level play. D only tournaments, high skill level players who spend time coaching/explaining/writing guides and so on. G) An entry point; for SC2 I can simply point people at Day[9] as an entry point to the scene. Who can you point prospective BW people at? H) A condensed scene, ICCup, fish, brain what? Way to split, you need a good mass of new newbies who can all play with each other if you want to drive interest. Pick one and rally around it, you won't get enough new blood to fill three things. H) A hook, why should I swap over? I already have more content then I could ever watch in the SC2 scene and as much as you guys like to circle jerk each other with how much better BW is then SC2 guess what? If you aren't already a BW fan then that's not a very convincing reason to watch. Give people reasons, make (english) hi-light reels, make articles that showcase fun/exciting BW games (contact whoever wrote the Savior article and beg them to write for you, that was one damned good read), throw noob only events.
Lets respond to these one by one shall we.
A) We don't treat the sc2 community like anything. we ignore it. Its people who come in here and troll the bw forums insulting our game. We get defensive and then attack back. Generally its the sc2 community that treats us like shit.
Lots of BW trolls pop into the SC2 forums now and then, just as SC2 trolls pop into the BW forum. Most of the BW trolls are concern trolls, while the SC2 trolls are 'LOL SC2 REPLACING BW LOLOLOLOL". Neither are indicative of their communities.
B) We have matches that are casted all the time by people like Sayle, crooked (don't know if still active) and a few more. For live events we have had people do english streams, to be unsucessful.
C) we have many great streamers. Just because you cannot tell between B- and B+. That is something that you need to learn about. and auctally pay attention to each player and you can clearly see the differnces.
While I'm getting a slight whiff of troll from theButtonmen, it's true that BW could really use a good face of the community type person. There are people who don't like SC2 much who like day[9]. We need one of those from BW
D) no automatchmaking in the bw client. The current system works fine and during the right times you can find a game pretty easily. the letter system has been around for ages. It won't change. and tbh I'm glad it won't. Its not like sc2 where a new league comes out every month or two with a new shiny icon and what blizzard describes as "shiny and pretty colours,".
I don't know what you're talking about with the bolded stuff. If you can't open your ports for whatever reason, though, it is fucking impossible to join a game in ICCUP, and it's generally a smurf at the low levels. Nothing in the universe is more irritating then spending 40 minutes trying to find a game only to get rushed. I speak from experience. Really nothing we can do there, though.
E) we have had a lot of things happen here and there. with projects being taken up by a lot of players to make things happen. Right now the community itself is rather divided so uniting the community would have to happen before this would ever happen
The BW community is too busy feeling sorry for itself to do anything productive, useful, or fun. Excepting Game and the sponsors, the BW community is pretty useless at helping BW.
F) This has been done countless times and auctally is done many times a month with iccup, and people here also writing guides. Auctally i've seen almost 10-15 since thebeginning of the year.
You've seen low-level BW tournaments? Links? I'm honestly interested.
G) Day[9] did 100+ BW dailies. so we often tell people to check out his bw dailies. other than that we have a ton of vods and such out by sayle. and a few by imbatoss.
H) sc2 doesn't even have a condensed scene lol. 5 different regions if I remember correctly. we have 4 if you count bnet as one. for lower level players, iccup has always been where to go. with fish and brian being for more experinced players.
I'm not actually arguing with you, and have no objections to this point. I just didn't want to skip it because I'm responding to everything else .
H2) bw doesn't have things that make pretty colours and make big booms like sc2. Simply speaking. If you want to play a better, more polished game that is perfectly balanced with such a large amount of depth. Play bw.
If you want to play a game that has pretty colours and units that make pretty lazers that go BOOM. If you want to play a game that gets changed every month or two. If you want to play a game with very little depth. Then play sc2. We can't change the game for anyone. Nor do I think we would want to.
See, this attitude isn't helping BW. At all. "Because SC2 is for inbred retards" doesn't convince SC2 players to play BW, it convinces them not to because the community presents itself as a bunch of hipsters.
If you want articles. we have new articles springing up all the time. Just people don't notice them. Not our fault that people ignore all bw articles for the sc2 ones.
Pimpest play videos are probably the best ads for BW viewership (if maybe not playing it) there are. This is the kind of thing BW fans need to make and post to Reddit and stuff.
If it was so impossible to join games, I'm wondering how people join my games in under 5 minutes when I host.
Because, especially at the low levels, there are 30 people trying to join games for everyone who can create one ;_;
On September 28 2011 00:38 Ribbon wrote: I maintain it's a community thing. There needs to be more stuff for low-level players to do, and then they'll play more and improve naturally. If you want to play Brood War even at a D-on-ICCUP level, you need to study and grind and do a lot of stuff that honestly isn't very fun. It's really hard to enjoy BW if you're not good at it. It's hard to get good at it if you don't enjoy it.
But I think the solution is to just make it more fun. Get a weekly Big Game Hunters 2v2v2v2 going. I'd play that. Get a monday funday thing going. We need a way for low-level players to dick around, find out that the game is fun, and then try to improve.
I don't think "Brood War" as a game is inaccessible, but I do think "competitive 1v1 Brood War" is pretty hard to get into from scratch. A noncompetitive entry point can go a long way. The Island Map tournaments are good. The Ribbon Classic was good (ego trip!), the tournament I'm sponsoring next month maybe less so, but the one after that will be sufficiently silly.
It just needs and entry point and constant exposure in other scenes, like r/starcraft and even r/gaming, among others.
I feel like this is the best idea. Get noobs to have fun just playing the game, and some of them will eventually want to become competitive. Especially if you help them along by getting them into watching pro BW. Think this doesn't work? Ask any competitive player. I think 99% will tell you that this is how they got into competitive BW.
Because, especially at the low levels, there are 30 people trying to join games for everyone who can create one ;_;
I feel like there is a lot more people on iccup than are in communities like this one. People that are just floating around. We should try to rope these people into a community environment.
Ribbon. I'm not going to quote you entire thing but Just two things.
When you metion asking for articles. Check out all the articles done for OSL's, MSL's, PL's in the last few months by people here on TL. the final edits and that jazz is a ton of content out there already. So content is there.
on the question of low level tournaments. ICCup does a few per season. they are not heavly promoted or advertised. so it does in the long run make them pretty hard to find and auctally particpate in.
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
I forge expand on Python all the time. Totally doable. And yeah I can defend my third with dragoons. I choose my third. Python was a pro map when Bisu was owning.
I also wish ICCUP used more up to date maps, but your arguments just sound like a SC2 player whining.
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
On September 28 2011 11:43 masterbreti wrote: Ribbon. I'm not going to quote you entire thing but Just two things.
When you metion asking for articles. Check out all the articles done for OSL's, MSL's, PL's in the last few months by people here on TL. the final edits and that jazz is a ton of content out there already. So content is there.
Ah. I actually do read those, but for some reason I didn't think of them. I don't know if I consider those good advertisement...though I did just five minutes ago get a NASL pass on an article's recommendation, so maybe it is :/
on the question of low level tournaments. ICCup does a few per season. they are not heavly promoted or advertised. so it does in the long run make them pretty hard to find and auctally particpate in.
I've been wanting to do one. How do they deal with smurfs, though? I feel like that'd be a big problem.
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
I forge expand on Python all the time. Totally doable. And yeah I can defend my third with dragoons. I choose my third. Python was a pro map when Bisu was owning.
I also wish ICCUP used more up to date maps, but your arguments just sound like a SC2 player whining.
Send me a replay of you defending your third with 3 Dragoons on a huge chokepoint against 4 Vultures without losing your Probes against a Bunker CC. Most Terrans on iCCup don't even use this build, and the ones that do typically don't even know this elementary timing. Against a Bunker CC the Protoss gets their third off of 4 Dragoons. The Protoss will have 6 Dragoons total when the Terran Vultures come out. This means only 3 will be defending each base. And since there isn't a choke point going into the expansions, the Protoss can't take this fast of an expansion. If the Protoss expands to another main base, its too difficult to defend the third against a mid game push...and therefore the Protoss is at a significant disadvantage. Since Python was a professional map a long time ago, the META game has changed a lot. Python forces players to go fast Reavers PvT, which is currently obsolete against professionals. The only Reaver builds you see in progaming today is midgame Reaver builds.
Also, if you watch B.Net attack you will notice the professionals often times 1 base on python. And when they do FE, there walls are normally terrible. You can't get a 3-4 hex wall on Python like you can virtually any other map. Python is not a safe map to Forge FE against Zerg. The entire point of a forge fast expand is it allows the Protoss to stop any all in the Zerg can possibly come up with (Unlike a scouted 1 base build).
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
I forge expand on Python all the time. Totally doable. And yeah I can defend my third with dragoons. I choose my third. Python was a pro map when Bisu was owning.
I also wish ICCUP used more up to date maps, but your arguments just sound like a SC2 player whining.
Send me a replay of you defending your third with 3 Dragoons on a huge chokepoint against 4 Vultures without losing your Probes against a Bunker CC. Most Terrans on iCCup don't even use this build, and the ones that do typically don't even know this elementary timing. Against a Bunker CC the Protoss gets their third off of 4 Dragoons. The Protoss will have 6 Dragoons total when the Terran Vultures come out. This means only 3 will be defending each base. And since there isn't a choke point going into the expansions, the Protoss can't take this fast of an expansion. If the Protoss expands to another main base, its too difficult to defend the third against a mid game push...and therefore the Protoss is at a significant disadvantage. Since Python was a professional map a long time ago, the META game has changed a lot. Python forces players to go fast Reavers PvT, which is currently obsolete against professionals. The only Reaver builds you see in progaming today is midgame Reaver builds.
Also, if you watch B.Net attack you will notice the professionals often times 1 base on python. And when they do FE, there walls are normally terrible. You can't get a 3-4 hex wall on Python like you can virtually any other map. Python is not a safe map to Forge FE against Zerg. The entire point of a forge fast expand is it allows the Protoss to stop any all in the Zerg can possibly come up with (Unlike a scouted 1 base build).
For the purposes of ANY player who games on iCCup, their skill level really isn't good enough for any of Python's little imbalances to take effect. I mean, if you're not confident in your PvZ and can't forge FE on Python or if you think that its just not possible, learn some one base play. As for PvT, T has a lower win rate than P in foreign games, Zerg is only VERY slightly favored in both match ups. So, being as all the matchups are close to 50/50 on Python, dunno what this stuff about imba is...
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
I forge expand on Python all the time. Totally doable. And yeah I can defend my third with dragoons. I choose my third. Python was a pro map when Bisu was owning.
I also wish ICCUP used more up to date maps, but your arguments just sound like a SC2 player whining.
Send me a replay of you defending your third with 3 Dragoons on a huge chokepoint against 4 Vultures without losing your Probes against a Bunker CC. Most Terrans on iCCup don't even use this build, and the ones that do typically don't even know this elementary timing. Against a Bunker CC the Protoss gets their third off of 4 Dragoons. The Protoss will have 6 Dragoons total when the Terran Vultures come out. This means only 3 will be defending each base. And since there isn't a choke point going into the expansions, the Protoss can't take this fast of an expansion. If the Protoss expands to another main base, its too difficult to defend the third against a mid game push...and therefore the Protoss is at a significant disadvantage. Since Python was a professional map a long time ago, the META game has changed a lot. Python forces players to go fast Reavers PvT, which is currently obsolete against professionals. The only Reaver builds you see in progaming today is midgame Reaver builds.
Also, if you watch B.Net attack you will notice the professionals often times 1 base on python. And when they do FE, there walls are normally terrible. You can't get a 3-4 hex wall on Python like you can virtually any other map. Python is not a safe map to Forge FE against Zerg. The entire point of a forge fast expand is it allows the Protoss to stop any all in the Zerg can possibly come up with (Unlike a scouted 1 base build).
For the purposes of ANY player who games on iCCup, their skill level really isn't good enough for any of Python's little imbalances to take effect. I mean, if you're not confident in your PvZ and can't forge FE on Python or if you think that its just not possible, learn some one base play. As for PvT, T has a lower win rate than P in foreign games, Zerg is only VERY slightly favored in both match ups. So, being as all the matchups are close to 50/50 on Python, dunno what this stuff about imba is...
My initial point stands. If you read my initial post in this thread you will see I attribute the low skill (relative to korean professionals) of foreigners and up and comers to playing old maps. You basically pointed out the reason foreign players aren't proficient in executing meta game builds and have mechanical weaknesses in their builds. They are playing on maps that are not suitable to sustain the meta game. The very fact foreigners are practicing old maps, in my opinion, is one of many reasons most foreigners don't even know what the meta game is or how it works. I also attributed frustration due to getting cheesed or facing aggressive builds to the reasons a lot of foreigners don't start using the meta game builds. Another major reason might be because these players don't watch Korean professional games. Or if they do watch them, they don't watch the games very carefully.
And sure, Python probably isn't imbalanced with players using strategies that are similar to what was used back when Python was a popular map. However, if those players tried to execute the current meta game on Python, the map statistics would be imbalanced.
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
I forge expand on Python all the time. Totally doable. And yeah I can defend my third with dragoons. I choose my third. Python was a pro map when Bisu was owning.
I also wish ICCUP used more up to date maps, but your arguments just sound like a SC2 player whining.
Send me a replay of you defending your third with 3 Dragoons on a huge chokepoint against 4 Vultures without losing your Probes against a Bunker CC. Most Terrans on iCCup don't even use this build, and the ones that do typically don't even know this elementary timing. Against a Bunker CC the Protoss gets their third off of 4 Dragoons. The Protoss will have 6 Dragoons total when the Terran Vultures come out. This means only 3 will be defending each base. And since there isn't a choke point going into the expansions, the Protoss can't take this fast of an expansion. If the Protoss expands to another main base, its too difficult to defend the third against a mid game push...and therefore the Protoss is at a significant disadvantage. Since Python was a professional map a long time ago, the META game has changed a lot. Python forces players to go fast Reavers PvT, which is currently obsolete against professionals. The only Reaver builds you see in progaming today is midgame Reaver builds.
Also, if you watch B.Net attack you will notice the professionals often times 1 base on python. And when they do FE, there walls are normally terrible. You can't get a 3-4 hex wall on Python like you can virtually any other map. Python is not a safe map to Forge FE against Zerg. The entire point of a forge fast expand is it allows the Protoss to stop any all in the Zerg can possibly come up with (Unlike a scouted 1 base build).
For the purposes of ANY player who games on iCCup, their skill level really isn't good enough for any of Python's little imbalances to take effect. I mean, if you're not confident in your PvZ and can't forge FE on Python or if you think that its just not possible, learn some one base play. As for PvT, T has a lower win rate than P in foreign games, Zerg is only VERY slightly favored in both match ups. So, being as all the matchups are close to 50/50 on Python, dunno what this stuff about imba is...
My initial point stands. If you read my initial post in this thread you will see I attribute the low skill (relative to korean professionals) of foreigners and up and comers to playing old maps. You basically pointed out the reason foreign players aren't proficient in executing meta game builds and have mechanical weaknesses in their builds. They are playing on maps that are not suitable to sustain the meta game. The very fact foreigners are practicing old maps, in my opinion, is one of many reasons most foreigners don't even know what the meta game is or how it works. I also attributed frustration due to getting cheesed or facing aggressive builds to the reasons a lot of foreigners don't start using the meta game builds. Another major reason might be because these players don't watch Korean professional games. Or if they do watch them, they don't watch the games very carefully.
And sure, Python probably isn't imbalanced with players using strategies that are similar to what was used back when Python was a popular map. However, if those players tried to execute the current meta game on Python, the map statistics would be imbalanced.
Wouldn't that just mean they're playing poorly?
I imagine the difference in skill between Korean pros and foreigners is
A.) Korean pros practice 14 hours a day, and get paid for it. B.) Korean pros have some of the best coaches in the world personally helping them C.) Korean pros live in Korea so they're surrounded by super-high-level players to bounce ideas off.
Foreign players, to be comparable, need
A.) The ability to play full time without starving to death because you have no dollars to buy burritos with. B.) Other high-level players they can talk with a lot. C.) High level players physically nearby (I think this might be less important in BW compared to certain other games I follow, but still)
I don't know if we can realistically do anything about point C, but point A can be helped by sponsoring more tournaments. Even $20 tournaments go a long way if a different person does one every day on top of the bigger ones.
Edit: And watching streams, of course, but a small hardcore fanbase like BW's needs to take more direct action to keep the scene alive
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
I forge expand on Python all the time. Totally doable. And yeah I can defend my third with dragoons. I choose my third. Python was a pro map when Bisu was owning.
I also wish ICCUP used more up to date maps, but your arguments just sound like a SC2 player whining.
Send me a replay of you defending your third with 3 Dragoons on a huge chokepoint against 4 Vultures without losing your Probes against a Bunker CC. Most Terrans on iCCup don't even use this build, and the ones that do typically don't even know this elementary timing. Against a Bunker CC the Protoss gets their third off of 4 Dragoons. The Protoss will have 6 Dragoons total when the Terran Vultures come out. This means only 3 will be defending each base. And since there isn't a choke point going into the expansions, the Protoss can't take this fast of an expansion. If the Protoss expands to another main base, its too difficult to defend the third against a mid game push...and therefore the Protoss is at a significant disadvantage. Since Python was a professional map a long time ago, the META game has changed a lot. Python forces players to go fast Reavers PvT, which is currently obsolete against professionals. The only Reaver builds you see in progaming today is midgame Reaver builds.
Also, if you watch B.Net attack you will notice the professionals often times 1 base on python. And when they do FE, there walls are normally terrible. You can't get a 3-4 hex wall on Python like you can virtually any other map. Python is not a safe map to Forge FE against Zerg. The entire point of a forge fast expand is it allows the Protoss to stop any all in the Zerg can possibly come up with (Unlike a scouted 1 base build).
For the purposes of ANY player who games on iCCup, their skill level really isn't good enough for any of Python's little imbalances to take effect. I mean, if you're not confident in your PvZ and can't forge FE on Python or if you think that its just not possible, learn some one base play. As for PvT, T has a lower win rate than P in foreign games, Zerg is only VERY slightly favored in both match ups. So, being as all the matchups are close to 50/50 on Python, dunno what this stuff about imba is...
My initial point stands. If you read my initial post in this thread you will see I attribute the low skill (relative to korean professionals) of foreigners and up and comers to playing old maps. You basically pointed out the reason foreign players aren't proficient in executing meta game builds and have mechanical weaknesses in their builds. They are playing on maps that are not suitable to sustain the meta game. The very fact foreigners are practicing old maps, in my opinion, is one of many reasons most foreigners don't even know what the meta game is or how it works. I also attributed frustration due to getting cheesed or facing aggressive builds to the reasons a lot of foreigners don't start using the meta game builds. Another major reason might be because these players don't watch Korean professional games. Or if they do watch them, they don't watch the games very carefully.
And sure, Python probably isn't imbalanced with players using strategies that are similar to what was used back when Python was a popular map. However, if those players tried to execute the current meta game on Python, the map statistics would be imbalanced.
Wouldn't that just mean they're playing poorly?
I imagine the difference in skill between Korean pros and foreigners is
A.) Korean pros practice 14 hours a day, and get paid for it. B.) Korean pros have some of the best coaches in the world personally helping them C.) Korean pros live in Korea so they're surrounded by super-high-level players to bounce ideas off.
Foreign players, to be comparable, need
A.) The ability to play full time without starving to death because you have no dollars to buy burritos with. B.) Other high-level players they can talk with a lot. C.) High level players physically nearby (I think this might be less important in BW compared to certain other games I follow, but still)
I don't know if we can realistically do anything about point C, but point A can be helped by sponsoring more tournaments. Even $20 tournaments go a long way if a different person does one every day on top of the bigger ones.
Edit: And watching streams, of course, but a small hardcore fanbase like BW's needs to take more direct action to keep the scene alive
I think foreigners could be doing a lot better than they are presently. Obviously playing all day isn't optimal for most people. But with the availability of VODs, it really isn't that hard to learn the current meta game if you watch the VODs carefully. And with technology such as instant messaging, ventrillo, skype, etc...I don't see why distance would be such a problem. Maybe time zones could be an issue for some people, but this really isn't that big of a problem in my opinion. I agree with your part (B), however. But I believe that's more of a side effect than a cause of the problem. Something that could help your problem in part (B) would be if the higher level clans were not so closed minded in giving people opportunities for trying out for their team.
On September 28 2011 11:43 masterbreti wrote: Ribbon. I'm not going to quote you entire thing but Just two things.
When you metion asking for articles. Check out all the articles done for OSL's, MSL's, PL's in the last few months by people here on TL. the final edits and that jazz is a ton of content out there already. So content is there.
Ah. I actually do read those, but for some reason I didn't think of them. I don't know if I consider those good advertisement...though I did just five minutes ago get a NASL pass on an article's recommendation, so maybe it is :/
on the question of low level tournaments. ICCup does a few per season. they are not heavly promoted or advertised. so it does in the long run make them pretty hard to find and auctally particpate in.
I've been wanting to do one. How do they deal with smurfs, though? I feel like that'd be a big problem.
in short. They don't. but they try.
in long. There have been umerious compaint about smurfing in these tourneys. Basically admins can't do anything until its proved they are smurfs. Which eaither means admiting it or by using a replay of the match. also doing some sort of ip tracking system, where the ip's of the entrants are compared to the amount of active players.
afaik nothing solid has been figured out. But I hope they are still trying to solve that issue.
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote: Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
Yeah forge fast expanding PvZ works really well on Python's huge choke points that need 3 buildings to wall. So does protecting a fast third with just Dragoons against the meta game 4 Vulture harass after a cc barracks....are you kidding me when you say Python supports standard play?
I forge expand on Python all the time. Totally doable. And yeah I can defend my third with dragoons. I choose my third. Python was a pro map when Bisu was owning.
I also wish ICCUP used more up to date maps, but your arguments just sound like a SC2 player whining.
Send me a replay of you defending your third with 3 Dragoons on a huge chokepoint against 4 Vultures without losing your Probes against a Bunker CC. Most Terrans on iCCup don't even use this build, and the ones that do typically don't even know this elementary timing. Against a Bunker CC the Protoss gets their third off of 4 Dragoons. The Protoss will have 6 Dragoons total when the Terran Vultures come out. This means only 3 will be defending each base. And since there isn't a choke point going into the expansions, the Protoss can't take this fast of an expansion. If the Protoss expands to another main base, its too difficult to defend the third against a mid game push...and therefore the Protoss is at a significant disadvantage. Since Python was a professional map a long time ago, the META game has changed a lot. Python forces players to go fast Reavers PvT, which is currently obsolete against professionals. The only Reaver builds you see in progaming today is midgame Reaver builds.
Also, if you watch B.Net attack you will notice the professionals often times 1 base on python. And when they do FE, there walls are normally terrible. You can't get a 3-4 hex wall on Python like you can virtually any other map. Python is not a safe map to Forge FE against Zerg. The entire point of a forge fast expand is it allows the Protoss to stop any all in the Zerg can possibly come up with (Unlike a scouted 1 base build).
For the purposes of ANY player who games on iCCup, their skill level really isn't good enough for any of Python's little imbalances to take effect. I mean, if you're not confident in your PvZ and can't forge FE on Python or if you think that its just not possible, learn some one base play. As for PvT, T has a lower win rate than P in foreign games, Zerg is only VERY slightly favored in both match ups. So, being as all the matchups are close to 50/50 on Python, dunno what this stuff about imba is...
My initial point stands. If you read my initial post in this thread you will see I attribute the low skill (relative to korean professionals) of foreigners and up and comers to playing old maps. You basically pointed out the reason foreign players aren't proficient in executing meta game builds and have mechanical weaknesses in their builds. They are playing on maps that are not suitable to sustain the meta game. The very fact foreigners are practicing old maps, in my opinion, is one of many reasons most foreigners don't even know what the meta game is or how it works. I also attributed frustration due to getting cheesed or facing aggressive builds to the reasons a lot of foreigners don't start using the meta game builds. Another major reason might be because these players don't watch Korean professional games. Or if they do watch them, they don't watch the games very carefully.
And sure, Python probably isn't imbalanced with players using strategies that are similar to what was used back when Python was a popular map. However, if those players tried to execute the current meta game on Python, the map statistics would be imbalanced.
Wouldn't that just mean they're playing poorly?
I imagine the difference in skill between Korean pros and foreigners is
A.) Korean pros practice 14 hours a day, and get paid for it. B.) Korean pros have some of the best coaches in the world personally helping them C.) Korean pros live in Korea so they're surrounded by super-high-level players to bounce ideas off.
Foreign players, to be comparable, need
A.) The ability to play full time without starving to death because you have no dollars to buy burritos with. B.) Other high-level players they can talk with a lot. C.) High level players physically nearby (I think this might be less important in BW compared to certain other games I follow, but still)
I don't know if we can realistically do anything about point C, but point A can be helped by sponsoring more tournaments. Even $20 tournaments go a long way if a different person does one every day on top of the bigger ones.
Edit: And watching streams, of course, but a small hardcore fanbase like BW's needs to take more direct action to keep the scene alive
I think foreigners could be doing a lot better than they are presently. Obviously playing all day isn't optimal for most people. But with the availability of VODs, it really isn't that hard to learn the current meta game if you watch the VODs carefully. And with technology such as instant messaging, ventrillo, skype, etc...I don't see why distance would be such a problem. Maybe time zones could be an issue for some people, but this really isn't that big of a problem in my opinion. I agree with your part (B), however. But I believe that's more of a side effect than a cause of the problem. Something that could help your problem in part (B) would be if the higher level clans were not so closed minded in giving people opportunities for trying out for their team.
I think distance is important because you're around fellow pros all the time. If distance wasn't important, BW pros wouldn't be crammed into small rooms and SC2 pros with Korean accounts wouldn't say physically moving to Korea was so vital and so much better than just playing on the KR server.
I'm wondering if it'd be productive to the scene to sponsor an SC2 tournament and a BW tournament (and an SC2:BW tournament?) at the same time on the same stream. Like, 2 BW games, 2 SC2 games, 2 BW games, etc on the same stream (this may need to be pre-recorded, at least until the later rounds), so then people watching the SC2 tournament would be exposed to BW (and the reverse ). Good idea? Bad idea? I'm going to be able to sponsor more tournaments now that my student loans are paid off, but I want to do more than "just another tournament".
EPT
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