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On September 26 2011 23:10 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 22:09 niteReloaded wrote:
Are you missing something? hmmmmmmm
Try broodwar's release date(too ugly for modern kids), skill ceiling (too hard for - everyone), active foreign users (can't even play for fun to start your passion) and expected earnings (-.-)... Gaah, you're still looking at it wrong. This is the problem. I have to go to a class, I'll get a proper response down once I'm back.
Problem is you are being to Idealistic here.
Just let me explain plz:
BW is a HARD game. In order to enjoy it you need to understand it, and in order to understand it you need to have at least some basic skill. A newbie getting into BW will just get stomped hard and wont be able to develop that basic skill before he gets frustrated. So he will quit the game before he actually understands how good the game is.
Why does this happens?
PPL this days don't think that a "hard challenge" is the same as "fun". Most ppl just play because they like to feel they are better than somebody, (friends or online players) That is what they see as "fun" these days. And SC2 and most modern games allow you to feel that you are not only better than your friends, they also show you that you are better than a whole bunch of ppl with their ranking sistem. I mean how many #1 rank are there in sc2? THOUSANDS.
Facebook games prove my point. I doesn't actually matter how shity and simple a game is. If people can look into a ranking and compare themselves with other ppl. They will feel they are better than other ppl and have "fun"
Problem with BW is that no ranking can make up for the huge learning curve that it requires. As somebody said just changing your letter in ICCUP can take you months.
Imagine that you are a new player with the "Im better than someone = fun" mentality. And a friend gets you into BW. You will need a lot of time before you can even take a gamer from your friend. And online ppl will just mercilessly trash you. You will quit before you understand how awesome is this game.
My solution!!!!
Yeah, I don't like to come up with problems and then leave them unsolved. Thats not BWish.
So the problem is not changing ppls attitude. That would also be idealist. We need to be pragmatic here. So lets change our focus.
How do we make ppl understand how awesome is this game before they lose interest?
I have stated that we can't do this from the competitive way. So instead of trying to make them play the game with guides and coaching to make their learning faster I propose....
Lets get them to WATCH the game.
Yeah that's it.
Watching BW professional scene is waaaaaaaaayy better than watching SC2 pro scene.
I play SC2 and BW. I like to play BW over SC2 just because I understand the game. As I said this is not the case with a newbie. The game is too complex.
But watching BW requires no skill, just basic understanding. And watching BW alone can be a source of better understanding of the game. That will help ppl realize that this game is awesome and it doesn't need modern graphics to be awesome.
Example: Korean girls.
Don't tell me all the girls that scream at pro matches are good BW players. But they all understand the game ENOUGH to have REAL FUN watching it.
If we get ppl to watch BW pro scene they will want to play the game just to have some of that REAL FUN. Their attitude will change to that of a guy that watches Kobe Bryan playing basketball and then goes to the court to play for fun. Even if he sucks at basketball.
How to do this?
Before SC2 beta got out. There was a project on TeamLiquid. I think it was called "Guide for new ppl to watch BW pro games" or something like that. The goal was to explain the basics of the game so that ppl will understand what they are seeing.
Needless to say it was cancelled when SC2 beta came out.
But we can take this project in our own hands.
The basic principle is that it's easier for somebody to learn enough to enjoy watching the game then learning enough to understand the game playing it.
Once they see the Pro scene they will learn to play by themselves. Or maybe they will just watch it. But that is already good for the community. More ppl watching BW pro scene should be our goals.
If we are ambitious enough we can aim to get a lot of ppl and be noticed as a potential market by kespa. (Yeah lets be optimistic ok?) That way maybe even pro scene will grow larger that it already is.
This is the good part:
You ImbaToss can do it. You made the guide for players switching from SC2. You and the pillars of our community can get on this project and make it true. (I can help off course if you need me.)
But please listen to me and lets try to get ppl into BW the easier way.
BW FOREVER!!!
TL:DR Awww hell no, plz ImbaToss read it all. I really put some effort writing this.
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re: 00Zarathustra not going to quote your text.
What you said is absolutely true.
Kids these days don't want to get "good" at a game. Games like Halflife DM, CS 1.6, quake, SSBM, SF (not sure which version but I know one of them is the undisputed esports version) and sc1 are the "old style hardcore" games that will never be recreated again in the future (at least doesn't look like it now).
New games have "fun" as their highest priority. Look at any new FPS. Getting hit all you have to do is hide for a while and your health will recover. Gone are the days of 100hp.
Not going to get into why sc2 is crap.
I have a few friends that are avid watchers of SCBW but they NEVER play.
They play sc2 and watch sc1.
They all agree that sc2 games right now are kindergarten level sticks and stones. They don't play SCBW because they know what level it should be played at and just get frustrated with themselves when they can't find the apm to perform. They are just intimidated to play and instead just rape noobs on sc2.
Getting people to watch SCBW would definitely mean more SCBW watchers but not necessarily more players. Playing still requires you to practice enough so that things like building pylons become subconscious and muscle memory.
It's just a natural process I guess. Sc1 was meant to burn bright and die.
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I really don't know much of what the foreign BW scene was like before sc2 came out... but perhaps it seems that there aren't as many up and coming players nont only becase there are in general less players active... but also because since the scene is so much smaller then it previously was... its harder for any sort of talent to come up seemingly from nowhere.
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On September 27 2011 00:15 00Zarathustra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 23:10 ImbaTosS wrote:On September 26 2011 22:09 niteReloaded wrote:
Are you missing something? hmmmmmmm
Try broodwar's release date(too ugly for modern kids), skill ceiling (too hard for - everyone), active foreign users (can't even play for fun to start your passion) and expected earnings (-.-)... Gaah, you're still looking at it wrong. This is the problem. I have to go to a class, I'll get a proper response down once I'm back. Problem is you are being to Idealistic here. Just let me explain plz: BW is a HARD game. In order to enjoy it you need to understand it, and in order to understand it you need to have at least some basic skill. A newbie getting into BW will just get stomped hard and wont be able to develop that basic skill before he gets frustrated. So he will quit the game before he actually understands how good the game is. Why does this happens? PPL this days don't think that a "hard challenge" is the same as "fun". Most ppl just play because they like to feel they are better than somebody, (friends or online players) That is what they see as "fun" these days. And SC2 and most modern games allow you to feel that you are not only better than your friends, they also show you that you are better than a whole bunch of ppl with their ranking sistem. I mean how many #1 rank are there in sc2? THOUSANDS. Facebook games prove my point. I doesn't actually matter how shity and simple a game is. If people can look into a ranking and compare themselves with other ppl. They will feel they are better than other ppl and have "fun" Problem with BW is that no ranking can make up for the huge learning curve that it requires. As somebody said just changing your letter in ICCUP can take you months. Imagine that you are a new player with the "Im better than someone = fun" mentality. And a friend gets you into BW. You will need a lot of time before you can even take a gamer from your friend. And online ppl will just mercilessly trash you. You will quit before you understand how awesome is this game. My solution!!!!Yeah, I don't like to come up with problems and then leave them unsolved. Thats not BWish. So the problem is not changing ppls attitude. That would also be idealist. We need to be pragmatic here. So lets change our focus. How do we make ppl understand how awesome is this game before they lose interest?I have stated that we can't do this from the competitive way. So instead of trying to make them play the game with guides and coaching to make their learning faster I propose.... Lets get them to WATCH the game. Yeah that's it. Watching BW professional scene is waaaaaaaaayy better than watching SC2 pro scene. I play SC2 and BW. I like to play BW over SC2 just because I understand the game. As I said this is not the case with a newbie. The game is too complex. But watching BW requires no skill, just basic understanding. And watching BW alone can be a source of better understanding of the game. That will help ppl realize that this game is awesome and it doesn't need modern graphics to be awesome. Example: Korean girls. Don't tell me all the girls that scream at pro matches are good BW players. But they all understand the game ENOUGH to have REAL FUN watching it. If we get ppl to watch BW pro scene they will want to play the game just to have some of that REAL FUN. Their attitude will change to that of a guy that watches Kobe Bryan playing basketball and then goes to the court to play for fun. Even if he sucks at basketball. How to do this?Before SC2 beta got out. There was a project on TeamLiquid. I think it was called "Guide for new ppl to watch BW pro games" or something like that. The goal was to explain the basics of the game so that ppl will understand what they are seeing. Needless to say it was cancelled when SC2 beta came out. But we can take this project in our own hands. The basic principle is that it's easier for somebody to learn enough to enjoy watching the game then learning enough to understand the game playing it. Once they see the Pro scene they will learn to play by themselves. Or maybe they will just watch it. But that is already good for the community. More ppl watching BW pro scene should be our goals. If we are ambitious enough we can aim to get a lot of ppl and be noticed as a potential market by kespa. (Yeah lets be optimistic ok?) That way maybe even pro scene will grow larger that it already is. This is the good part: You ImbaToss can do it. You made the guide for players switching from SC2. You and the pillars of our community can get on this project and make it true. (I can help off course if you need me.) But please listen to me and lets try to get ppl into BW the easier way. BW FOREVER!!! TL:DR Awww hell no, plz ImbaToss read it all. I really put some effort writing this.
Hey Cocky,
I think a better thing that would help new people start watching BW would be English casting, instead of a guide. When I'm watching BW and a friend wanders into my room, they can get interested only because I'm casually explaining what everything means, and why the crowd is tense, or why people just cheered. It's more accessible than reading a guide.
I know Sayle casts (or used to cast, haven't checked in awhile) BW pro games, but he's only one guy and his exposure is limited to BW forums on TL.net. Plus (and don't take this the wrong way, I think Sayle is a hero to the BW community for his marathon casts and I always enjoy them) his casts aren't as professional as you see on SC2.
I wonder (aloud) if trying to put forth a more professional cast system with better advertising would be a better route, if that's possible or worthwhile.
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On September 27 2011 00:37 pyrogenetix wrote:
re: 00Zarathustra not going to quote your text.
What you said is absolutely true.
Kids these days don't want to get "good" at a game. Games like Halflife DM, CS 1.6, quake, SSBM, SF (not sure which version but I know one of them is the undisputed esports version) and sc1 are the "old style hardcore" games that will never be recreated again in the future (at least doesn't look like it now).
New games have "fun" as their highest priority. Look at any new FPS. Getting hit all you have to do is hide for a while and your health will recover. Gone are the days of 100hp.
Not going to get into why sc2 is crap.
I have a few friends that are avid watchers of SCBW but they NEVER play.
They play sc2 and watch sc1.
They all agree that sc2 games right now are kindergarten level sticks and stones. They don't play SCBW because they know what level it should be played at and just get frustrated with themselves when they can't find the apm to perform. They are just intimidated to play and instead just rape noobs on sc2.
Getting people to watch SCBW would definitely mean more SCBW watchers but not necessarily more players. Playing still requires you to practice enough so that things like building pylons become subconscious and muscle memory.
It's just a natural process I guess. Sc1 was meant to burn bright and die.
I disagree.
As ImbaToss said you guys are missing the point.
We want ppl to play BW because the LIKE the game. If ppl don't play because it requires lot of skill to be good, is because they are playing with the "I want to be better than you" attitude. If they get to actually LIKE this game as much as we do. They will even enjoy losing (like we do) because it will be just a challenge and a fun thing to do.
Most ppl don't get to the point of liking this game as much as we do because its a very complex game. They just don't see all the complexity.
My point is:
The faster and easiest way to understand the complexity(and awesomeness) of this game is watching BW.
I was D+ high for 8 years but i kept playing just because i loved this game and BW pro scene was the reason I loved this game. I couldn't play nearly as good as them. But just knowing that playing THAT AWESOMELY GOOD was possible kept me motivated. I'm C+ know and I think the gap is even bigger than before and I love it.
Also people are not giving solutions. They just come here and say it's not possible.
That is not BWish!!!
EDIT: DUNCAN.MC I really like your idea. When Tasteless, Artosis, Chill, Day9 got into casting. BW foreign scene interest rose. Maybe we need to step up with the casting. But the guide will be useful too. I mean Tasteless was considered a great caster because the way he explained the games made ppl that never played BW understand what was happening, and that made them realize the awesomeness they had in front of their eyes.
I also like your BWish attitude duncan 
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I think the problem has three main components:
(a) Teams won't even talk to you unless you have accounts at above the B- rank or have an AKA people already know (Even if you have plenty of C+ accounts with good records).
(b) Its virtually impossible to improve on iCCup. This is because its full of players who play maps that operate outside of the META game (Destination, Python, Bluestorm, HBR, to some extent FS, etc...) and most of the players don't even have well defined strategies. Its rare to even find a player who knows a proper SCV or Probe scout timing (Even in the C and B ranks), let alone a player who plays within the entire meta game. This causes players attempting to develop mechanics to eventually get frustrated and resort to cheese.
(c) Its difficult to practice on Korean servers because of the language barriers. And a lot of lower level Koreans have the exact problems as iccup I described in part (b).
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Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
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United Kingdom1709 Posts
There's a curious air of positive thinking coming over this thread (if you dig deep enough).
00Zarathustra, I see your point that people need to be interested in watching it. I think you have a very valid point there. The idea that if we reach out on various communities, not just Teamliquid, with projects to get people watching and understanding BW, is a strong one. Then even if one in 50 people who watch our professional styled, beginner-friendly commentaries actually log on and play the game *which is ***FREE*** by the way, we will still be bringing one hell of a lot of fresh blood in.
And I'm not talking in a hyper competitive sense here, which is where a lot of misconception is occuring in this thread. I'm talking building from the roots again, just having a growing number of people who enjoy playing! Not who want to be professionals. People who want to play in Division Z of Clanleague some day and possibly beat some other D rank team, and would feel good doing so.
So ummm, yeah. Another problem we face is that people talk a lot and don't like to act. I will start considering this project, and if I can think of an overall structure to make it viable (production values, sites to promote and discuss on, people who could help push the game for us), and critically whether I have enough time or not because my schedule is slammed at the moment, then this could be a go-er.
EDIT: Tryumm- in response to point A), you've clearly never come to talk to team AoV. Op AoV, Team AoV on ICCup, and I am EleGant[AoV].
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On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote:
Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Yes, but they aren't used anymore. Circuit Breakers, Empire of the sun, La Mancha, Monte Christo, Carrierfinder, that's were the metagame is. (Can't believe I just used that shitty word.)
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Maybe I'm missing something, but how is MAYBE making $800 over 4 months "monetary success" or a "respective amount of cash flow"?
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United States11393 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:38 keiraknightlee wrote:
Maps like Destination, Python, FS, etc. (basically most of the maps used in iccup) are pro maps, they have been used in Proleague, OSL, MSL, so they are very well balanced. I don't know what you mean when you say the maps are outside the meta game.
Maybe you should actually try playing on them then.
Modern play really translates well into Python.
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United Kingdom1709 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:55 Sentenal wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but how is MAYBE making $800 over 4 months "monetary success" or a "respective amount of cash flow"?
People all over the world do things which are done professionally, not because they want to make a living out of it, but because they love it. Huge numbers of people. I find that kind of thinking so unproductive, and obtuse. People categorise an "esport". And then that's it. There is one model. One reason to play, and that's being a progamer, which is total rubbish.
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Hey ImbaToss I'm willing to help as much as I can if you take this project.
I would do it myself but I live in Bolivia aka my internet sux. xD even uploading a video would take hours and I don't want to even talk about streaming. xD
But outside from streaming or making videos I can help in anything you want. The project needs a leader and I think you are the best one for this. And if you think you are not, Im sure you know who would be the best for the job.
You can count with me.
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On September 27 2011 03:18 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 02:55 Sentenal wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but how is MAYBE making $800 over 4 months "monetary success" or a "respective amount of cash flow"? People all over the world do things which are done professionally, not because they want to make a living out of it, but because they love it. Huge numbers of people. I find that kind of thinking so unproductive, and obtuse. People categorise an "esport". And then that's it. There is one model. One reason to play, and that's being a progamer, which is total rubbish.
I don't see how that has anything to do with what I just said. OP is trying to make out a relatively small amount of money made in BW to be something more than it is. MAYBE $800 over 4 months is $200 a month? And quiet possible could be half that if a few tournaments don't go as planned? Don't quit your day job, folks. Doing something for fun, and because you love it is one thing. But you can't make a living off the foreign BW scene, and think that you can is just crazy.
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All the people that are complaining about the $ amount refuses to remember how small the foreigner scene/TL was prior to SC2 oO. Its not like Idra was rolling in da chedda back then either, he was the top foreigner and all he got was free food/housing from CJ.
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On September 27 2011 03:18 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 02:55 Sentenal wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but how is MAYBE making $800 over 4 months "monetary success" or a "respective amount of cash flow"? People all over the world do things which are done professionally, not because they want to make a living out of it, but because they love it. Huge numbers of people. I find that kind of thinking so unproductive, and obtuse. People categorise an "esport". And then that's it. There is one model. One reason to play, and that's being a progamer, which is total rubbish.
No one is licking stamps for fun.
No one is labeling cans for fun.
People are doing stuff for fun if its FUN.
Playing StarCraft IS fun.
Getting GOOD at Starcraft is NOT fun. It's fucking copy&paste from the pros, no room for creative thinking except at teeny tiniest little things at the absolute top level of play.
So, to be an "up and comer" in BroodWar, you basically have to be a pretty stiff person with extremely low criteria for determining what's fun.
It's not even about fun for all people. It's about competition for some. There's NONE in foreign BroodWar. Noone is serious about it. So the only satisfaction you could get would be beating people who actually have a life while your holy "up and comin-ness" spams BroodWar for 6+ hours a day.
Give it up ImbaToss, reality is proving you wrong and even theory can't come up with solid ground reasons for the emergence of new blood for BroodWar.
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On September 27 2011 03:40 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 03:18 ImbaTosS wrote:On September 27 2011 02:55 Sentenal wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but how is MAYBE making $800 over 4 months "monetary success" or a "respective amount of cash flow"? People all over the world do things which are done professionally, not because they want to make a living out of it, but because they love it. Huge numbers of people. I find that kind of thinking so unproductive, and obtuse. People categorise an "esport". And then that's it. There is one model. One reason to play, and that's being a progamer, which is total rubbish. No one is licking stamps for fun. No one is labeling cans for fun. People are doing stuff for fun if its FUN. Playing StarCraft IS fun. Getting GOOD at Starcraft is NOT fun. It's fucking copy&paste from the pros, no room for creative thinking except at teeny tiniest little things at the absolute top level of play. So, to be an "up and comer" in BroodWar, you basically have to be a pretty stiff person with extremely low criteria for determining what's fun. It's not even about fun for all people. It's about competition for some. There's NONE in foreign BroodWar. Noone is serious about it. So the only satisfaction you could get would be beating people who actually have a life while your holy "up and comin-ness" spams BroodWar for 6+ hours a day. Give it up ImbaToss, reality is proving you wrong and even theory can't come up with solid ground reasons for the emergence of new blood for BroodWar.
Your signature says otherwise.
Don't give up, ImbaToss!
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United Kingdom1709 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:40 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 03:18 ImbaTosS wrote:On September 27 2011 02:55 Sentenal wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but how is MAYBE making $800 over 4 months "monetary success" or a "respective amount of cash flow"? People all over the world do things which are done professionally, not because they want to make a living out of it, but because they love it. Huge numbers of people. I find that kind of thinking so unproductive, and obtuse. People categorise an "esport". And then that's it. There is one model. One reason to play, and that's being a progamer, which is total rubbish. No one is licking stamps for fun. No one is labeling cans for fun. People are doing stuff for fun if its FUN. Playing StarCraft IS fun. Getting GOOD at Starcraft is NOT fun. It's fucking copy&paste from the pros, no room for creative thinking except at teeny tiniest little things at the absolute top level of play. So, to be an "up and comer" in BroodWar, you basically have to be a pretty stiff person with extremely low criteria for determining what's fun. It's not even about fun for all people. It's about competition for some. There's NONE in foreign BroodWar. Noone is serious about it. So the only satisfaction you could get would be beating people who actually have a life while your holy "up and comin-ness" spams BroodWar for 6+ hours a day. Give it up ImbaToss, reality is proving you wrong and even theory can't come up with solid ground reasons for the emergence of new blood for BroodWar.
All reality is proving is that what I would like to happen hasn't been done yet. And also that there are more than enough people happy to say "Urrrr it's all fucked, and also it's rubbish playing, and also even if there were something to be done I probably wouldn't do it".
You compare playing this game to LICKING STAMPS?? You are just mind-blowing. Wow. Just... my god, what did you even come here for?
You just insulted me, and pretty much all the people in the BW forum with your few choice statements. Wanna do something for what you love, or are you truly a spectator to life? I'm not really one for doing nothing but jumping on the back of other people's achievements. It's not the path to satisfaction, or happiness, or meaningful longevity.
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On September 27 2011 03:40 niteReloaded wrote:
It's not even about fun for all people. It's about competition for some.
If they can't have fun while competing then they should just stop doing it. It's just the neurotic "I wanna be better than you in something" kinda attitude.
This game is GREAT and FUN:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=261719
Elegant want to draw more ppl into the community so they can have this level of FUN. Because BW would be even more enjoyable if there were more ppl in the community.
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Moving to Fish was a good idea obviously for a lot of reasons but there's a lot of people in limbo now on iccup. And the gap from like C to high B is seemingly impassable without some serious determination and persistence. Not to say it was ever easy but i reckon with more players around with no language barrier, more clans around and generally just more people it was quicker to learn.
Btw it's retarded to say you MUST copy builds to get good, when it comes to the foreign scene. You'd think that myth would die out ages about with players like F91 and his showmatch against IdrA. Smashing a B-team total 'safe' player with creativity. If you are smart tactically/strategically or just work on pure mechanics you can still be creative (although in some matchups more than others of course). The game is varied enough to allow though, it's an injustice to suggest otherwise. Foreigners are not going to die like Koreans could possibly because of a build being seconds off or diverting from the standard, there's clearly a lot of leeway for individual ideas.
And i don't think Game is trying to say the money is worth any more than it is. Where does he exaggerate at all? The topic is hardly even positive when it's saying there's no new blood so how the fuck would you get the impression he's trying to make out things are better than reality. He's just giving us the figures (which tbh i thought would be less) and a viewpoint.
To be honest in my opinion i don't have a problem with the scenes size right now.. in a way the small size gives more of a sense of community and you learn about everyone better, it has a few little benefits in things like that. I think due to the time since SC2 release there will be a lull in new blood appearing at C/B level, as that is when new players would have probably started their journey to those levels but instead play SC2. However i honestly think that will change as you could see just by threads on here; more and more taking a fair bit of interest in BW retroactively. I think a slow but steady growth is in order as the allure of SC2 wears thin and people return or gain an interest. It's not like we can lose more people at this point is it really? If you've not switched by now then your mind seems pretty clear about what you prefer.
Having an authoritative guide or something on what server people should use and just an overall general advisory would go some way to helping this. We need something to point people to that easily answers the questions we see over and over.
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EPT
