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On August 10 2011 09:04 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 06:27 Schnake wrote:On August 10 2011 05:27 qrs wrote:
I don't see why TL couldn't agree to let Fomos republish its original content, with attribution, of course. The distinction between translation and republishing is honestly not very clear to me: in either case, you're piggy-backing off someone else's work, whether you add to it or not. After reading the opening post with the explanation, this is still not clear to you? I thought it was explained in crystal clear terms. No, it's not. The main thing that disappoints me is that TL, a website that gets almost all of its work (including the staff writing) out of volunteers who work for free to support the community, takes such a possessive stance over sharing that work for the greater good of the community, whichever website it's read on. Websites with far more valuable content, like Wikipedia for example, are willing to allow other sites to republish them with attribution, for the common good of everyone, but TL with this apparently petty and selfish attitude is limiting people. Granted, no one is missing out on anything desperately important, but still, I don't see the necessity. Now, it's possible that there's an argument that I don't know about; for instance a projection that allowing Fomos to republish articles would result in a loss of needed ad revenue for Team Liquid. So I'm not accusing TL of anything; I'm just saying that the distinction is not very clear to me.
Now, if I remember correctly, the main problem in trying to strike a deal was not this, but the fact that fomos was insistent on having translation quotas, which doesn't really mesh with TL's complete volunteer ideology. The idea that TL translators are forced to translate under contract was something they couldn't do, and thus the deal fell through.
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On August 10 2011 09:28 xxpack09 wrote:
Now, if I remember correctly, the main problem in trying to strike a deal was not this, but the fact that fomos was insistent on having translation quotas, which doesn't really mesh with TL's complete volunteer ideology. The idea that TL translators are forced to translate under contract was something they couldn't do, and thus the deal fell through. I was going off the OP, which says Fomos was not satisfied with these terms. It wanted permission to copy TL.net's original English content and republish it, unaltered and untranslated, on its own English language site. This was a request we could not accommodate. Direct English-to-English or Korean-to-Korean copying of core content is an entirely different matter than sharing translated content between readerships of differing languages, and was never an option for TL. If TL opened a Korean language site, we would not expect Fomos to give us permission to repost their Korean content there.
Fomos also suggested that TL.net meet a monthly quota of translated articles. [emphasis mine] My understanding of the above is that Fomos' initial demand was for permission to republish content; when that was denied, they suggested the monthly quota as an alternative arrangement.
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Have Koreans heard of Fair Use?
Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship. It provides for the legal, non-licensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test. -- from wikipedia
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On August 10 2011 13:44 maka.albarn wrote:
Have Koreans heard of Fair Use?
Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship. It provides for the legal, non-licensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test. -- from wikipedia Fair use does not cover translating an entire news article. Nobody's arguing that, including TL.
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On August 10 2011 04:03 DexVitality wrote:
Ok just to clarify now that I have spoken with SuperDanielMan (Daniel Lee).
So I am sure as you all know that the Fomos international thing was all really spearheaded by SDM. I have since learned that in late July, SDM was released from his duties and both parties parted ways with mutual understanding that their views were different from each other and decided to move on.
This happened most likely when the posts stopped getting posted on the Global Section of Fomos. So as of right now, there is no activity in the Fomos Global Section until Fomos decides what to do with it, if they want to search for a replacement for SDM to run the site or to just stop the activity completely.
I just wanted to clear something up regarding the Foreign BW Community and this is just something from my view and things I have discussed with SDM on this topic.
The reason why Fomos asked TL to stop using their articles was because both parties made offers to each other and they did not come to an agreement and hence they told TL to stop using their articles. At the end of the day, Fomos is a business and it will conduct itself as so. They realized long ago that TL has taken and translated their articles without their permission, it was not until recently that they started to speak up on the matter (I don't know why they took so long but.. w/e).
Fomos telling TL to stop using their articles and themselves making their own translations had nothing to do with each other from what I know, it was purely just a copyright infringement thing.
One of the things that has led to this situation in Fomos has been their lackluster SmartPhone App which was developed and released and it failed to meet expectations which then (I assume here) caused them to rethink what direction they want to go.
I have emailed and will try to get in contact with Fomos asking them about the situation about the Global section as SDM no longer has any ties to the site so.... I guess I will fill you guys in once I get a reply? If i get a reply...
Thanks for letting us know!
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On August 10 2011 09:04 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 06:27 Schnake wrote:On August 10 2011 05:27 qrs wrote:
I don't see why TL couldn't agree to let Fomos republish its original content, with attribution, of course. The distinction between translation and republishing is honestly not very clear to me: in either case, you're piggy-backing off someone else's work, whether you add to it or not. After reading the opening post with the explanation, this is still not clear to you? I thought it was explained in crystal clear terms. No, it's not. The main thing that disappoints me is that TL, a website that gets almost all of its work (including the staff writing) out of volunteers who work for free to support the community, takes such a possessive stance over sharing that work for the greater good of the community, whichever website it's read on. Websites with far more valuable content, like Wikipedia for example, are willing to allow other sites to republish them with attribution, for the common good of everyone, but TL with this apparently petty and selfish attitude is limiting people. Granted, no one is missing out on anything desperately important, but still, I don't see the necessity. Now, it's possible that there's an argument that I don't know about; for instance a projection that allowing Fomos to republish articles would result in a loss of needed ad revenue for Team Liquid. So I'm not accusing TL of anything; I'm just saying that the distinction is not very clear to me.
I'll have to agree with you with most of what you said here but at the end of the day it is TL's decision.
From what I know Fomos pays their staff and interviewers to go out and travel to ll the events. So if you were them and you see a foreign site taking the hard work they put into the articles and using them, you can see why they may not have liked it esp when they did not give permission for TL to use the articles but either way..... this issue has been talked about over and over, whatever has happened has happened we just have to respect both parties here and let it be done.
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Why the @#$^! are koreans impossible to negotiate with? Holy bejeebus, one bad story after the next
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Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean.
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On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote:
Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean.
They prolly care more about the site traffic they would get from the readers if all of the people from TL who read the translated articles actually read it from the FOMOS website.
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On August 17 2011 10:03 Dubzex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote:
Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean. They prolly care more about the site traffic they would get from the readers if all of the people from TL who read the translated articles actually read it from the FOMOS website.
Right. That's probably why they stopped updating the global page back in July.
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On August 17 2011 10:06 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 10:03 Dubzex wrote:On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote:
Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean. They prolly care more about the site traffic they would get from the readers if all of the people from TL who read the translated articles actually read it from the FOMOS website. Right. That's probably why they stopped updating the global page back in July.
Well it is not like they didn't try. Their translations were mediocre at best so it wasn't surprising that people stopped reading their articles. They probably also realized that the effort wasn't worth it to try and pull in the last remnants of the foreign BW community at this point in time.
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On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote:
Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean. By this logic, it ought to be OK to publish unauthorized translations of books as well. Do you really believe that?
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On August 18 2011 14:02 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote:
Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean. By this logic, it ought to be OK to publish unauthorized translations of books as well. Do you really believe that?
It happens all the time with korean and japanese manga publication that's produced in their own language. They have a translated fan group who would translate those manga weekly in english and that's how the publication become more aware and famous, otherwise sometimes, people would never heard of them. And of course, the fan groups would delete or tell people to buy the actual manga when it actually does come out in English.
Same case with Korean dramas as there are so many fan translators and then when the official translation comes from the company, the fan translations back off.
Now, in this particular situation, it's tricky since first off, the usual fan sub team / translators would do everything voluntary and their group itself is not for profit and don't make any money. It's different with TL as they actually do make money. Second, I have doubts that even if TL can translate the articles that fomos will just copy what we translated and make it as their own without giving respectable credits as seen in the past.
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Alright Guys, I guess since the topic of Fomos and its Content is in this thread I will just continue posting it here.
As of right now, I have been contacted by Fomos and they do have plans to continue their Global section which will include Translations and new reports on SCBW and SC2. However, with the loss of Daniel Lee, the site's Global Section progress has taken a pretty big blow and hence the inactivity on the site thus far. As far as I am aware, they are trying to get a replacement for what Daniel Lee did and so until then the Global site is pretty much put on hold although I believe articles should be posted soon in the near future, perhaps not Translations of interviews quite yet.
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On August 21 2011 02:54 DexVitality wrote:
Alright Guys, I guess since the topic of Fomos and its Content is in this thread I will just continue posting it here.
As of right now, I have been contacted by Fomos and they do have plans to continue their Global section which will include Translations and new reports on SCBW and SC2. However, with the loss of Daniel Lee, the site's Global Section progress has taken a pretty big blow and hence the inactivity on the site thus far. As far as I am aware, they are trying to get a replacement for what Daniel Lee did and so until then the Global site is pretty much put on hold although I believe articles should be posted soon in the near future, perhaps not Translations of interviews quite yet.
Then until Fomos Global is successfully active and up running, can TL translate interviews and articles while giving original source credit?
I mean it's not like you guys will translate them way later when it was up running and active and decided to translate months old of untranslated articles. That'll be silly for you and for everyone who cares about reading months old news.
If it's going to be a waste, might as well make the waste be worthwhile.
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On August 21 2011 03:41 QuickStriker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 02:54 DexVitality wrote:
Alright Guys, I guess since the topic of Fomos and its Content is in this thread I will just continue posting it here.
As of right now, I have been contacted by Fomos and they do have plans to continue their Global section which will include Translations and new reports on SCBW and SC2. However, with the loss of Daniel Lee, the site's Global Section progress has taken a pretty big blow and hence the inactivity on the site thus far. As far as I am aware, they are trying to get a replacement for what Daniel Lee did and so until then the Global site is pretty much put on hold although I believe articles should be posted soon in the near future, perhaps not Translations of interviews quite yet. Then until Fomos Global is successfully active and up running, can TL translate interviews and articles while giving original source credit? I mean it's not like you guys will translate them way later when it was up running and active and decided to translate months old of untranslated articles. That'll be silly for you and for everyone who cares about reading months old news. If it's going to be a waste, might as well make the waste be worthwhile.
I really cannot speak for Fomos concerning their Korean articles I believe the agreement with TL on not using their content still stands... they are looking for translators now, maybe when I get in contact with them again I will mention this topic but I don't think anything will change.
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Hi. I'm so sorry for bumping such a dead thread, but I just want to clarify something. Didn't think it really warranted a thread of its own, and this seemed like the most appropriate place to ask.
From what I understand, Fomos content is out of bounds for translation but DailyEsports content is ok for translation. However, I've seen several instances where both Fomos and DailyEsports post interviews of the same player. The main content is generally about the same, with several minor differences along the interview.
Any idea what this is about?
My guess is that there're reporters from both Fomos and DailyEsports at the same interview session, and the reporters have slightly different takes on the interview. In that case, is that ok for translation?
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On August 13 2012 01:54 Weirdkid wrote:
Hi. I'm so sorry for bumping such a dead thread, but I just want to clarify something. Didn't think it really warranted a thread of its own, and this seemed like the most appropriate place to ask.
From what I understand, Fomos content is out of bounds for translation but DailyEsports content is ok for translation. However, I've seen several instances where both Fomos and DailyEsports post interviews of the same player. The main content is generally about the same, with several minor differences along the interview.
Any idea what this is about?
My guess is that there're reporters from both Fomos and DailyEsports at the same interview session, and the reporters have slightly different takes on the interview. In that case, is that ok for translation?
DES one is okay.
I wonder if the ban still applies for Fomos, though.
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EPT
