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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 12 2004 06:49 Breeze wrote:
Yes the colors hurt! I bet everyone noticed War3 was way too colorfull right from the first published beta shots... a more techy and dark/desaturated look like broodwar might own with a similar (and better) engine, plus as Nuttie says the resolution/antialiasing will be better, and the models more complex and smooth
No the actual colours would have been awesome as long as the game was REALLY fast paced, it would be really fucking cool :O Just the game is way slow with all that HP --
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On September 10 2004 21:50 tfeign wrote: Show nested quote +On September 10 2004 21:48 blackblood wrote:
what is "hard counter"/"soft counter" supposed to mean? Explanation: StarCraft was the game of 'hard' counters (unit x counters unit y in virtually every case), with Warcraft III having 'soft' counters (units a, b, and c or combinations thereof can be used to combat unit y effectivelyBasically in Starcraft, one unit counters another. For example, firebat counters ling. Hydra counters firebat, and so forth. In W3, it takes multiple units to counter a unit. In theory, this encourages a mix of units. However in reality, this post sums it up pretty well: Hard counter = extremely little room for mistakes. Takes a massive amount of skill to make sure your units are alive. Skill-intensive
Soft counter = TONS of rooms for mistakes. You have time to pull back your units and not be hurt so badly at all. You don't have to be attentive to your units. Newbie-friendly
It's basically comparing skill-intensive vs newbie friendly. Which is similar to comparing SC vs W3.
SC takes a massive amount of skill because the player has to be extremely attentive to their units. W3 allows lots of room for mistakes
us starcraft pros are so biased
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Someone said to add ALT+G. I agree, but i'd like to add some w3 features that would be nice in sc2:
-the ability to chat while the drop players window is counting down
-bnet system (already mentioned) - icons, tourneys, quick finding of games vs players of same level etc.
For the following i'm not sure:
-more than 12 units selection (i know, this is not from w3)
-subgroups (ex. u have marines and medics in a group and u can hit tab to select only the marines, so the stim icon appears... in bw this is done by ctrl+click or double click)
-multiple buildings in one control group (would make macro easier)
I think multiple spelling is a big NO. The 8 lockdown thing was already mentioned, but imagine 5 templars casting 10 perfect storms.... scary.
And resource sharing in 2v2 is also a big NO. It's so funny to win 1v2 by killing the nexus of an opponent 
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Overlord, the last two things would decrease the importance of multitasking; which is one of the things that seperates good players from decent ones. Besides, imainge how much lower Nada's APM would be if he just had to hit "3t" ( :
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Sweden33719 Posts
I don't like any of the ones you are unsure about 
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I agree with too colorful and distracting effects in W3..
Graph needs to be nice but simple .
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fuck 3d wtf go 2d u roxxxx hehe :D
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United States33503 Posts
it would be fun if they could introduce all the micro conveniences in war3 while putting in a factor very important to the game to do in that saved time
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disclaimer
I don't think warcraft 3 is a good game so that give me a right to express myself in this forum. Yet I wanted to think about what make me enjoy a RTS and why. That's a personal opinion. I doubt you would find it interesting, but I had fun trying to think it through. If you think I'm dead wrong I'd be glad to hear your articulate and documented reasons, because I'm at work and I desesperately try not to do my job...
What I like about warcraft 3:
-much improved teamplay (ping, ressources sharing, and the ability to buff and complement your allies)
-the upkeep system. That actually rewards agressivity if you think of it, and it makes sens.
-the great diversity of spells, units, races.
-the improved battle.net. anonymous matchmaking, in particular, is really really great when you want to play someone more or less your skill anytime.
-the editor, making it possible to create complete new games within the game engine.
-the control group management, tabbed browsing, multiple building selection, etc. And if I was a generaI and ordered a control group of ghost to lock that goon, I would expect them to understand: "get that goon locked", not "simultaneously launch 12 lockdowns on that unit". I know, that legendary boxer move wouldnt have been so impressive then. Well he just would have been legendary for something else.
-autocast minor buffs: I don't care if you flame me, and here is why:
autocast is implemented in starcraft too, and I've never seen anyone say :
"hey autocast heal is for noobs ! Takes away the skill ! Manual heal all the way !... Why not make it so that you have to stim each marine manually ? Wait ! Come to think of it, almost EVERY UNIT IN STARCRAFT HAS AUTOCAST FIRE ! NOOB GAME ! Make it so you have to manually click on each unit, press a (noob shortcut ! less skill !), click on an enemy ! Talk about skill !"
Nothing has to be newbie-friendly, of course I'm not advocating everything autocast. Auto cast storm or feedback is obviously stupid. But heal, for instance, that would be just weird without autocast. If you are old enough, please remember how much fun it was (not) to bloodlust manually your 30 ogres in WC2 during the battle. That was just plain boring.
What I dislike about warcraft 3:
- heroes: They are quite harmless if you just consider them as better, more expensive units, but the actual disadvantage is that they are much much too versatile, thus being the great strategic equalizer. Not good
-the randomness: randomness is ok in a RTS only if the event will occur a sufficient number of times to be treated statistically, but it sucks when you deal 3 critical strikes killing the hero, or when those 4 goons cant kill that tank uphill in 6 volleys...
-the experience system: that could have been interesting, but in war3, the problem is that experience = more power = more kills = more xp -> exponential gain. That makes comebacks hardly ever seen in WC3, which sucks. Maybe if totally rebalanced...
-the cartoony graphics and the over-the-top fireworks light effects that look so pretty in the eye of a twelve year old but makes trying to know what's happening during that big 2vs2 battle absolutely illusory.
-the creeps: it sure is a tactical element of WC3, but I dislike spending time compstomping when I could actually be playing against the guy... Note that the idea was probably to prevent you from camping, which is good.
-all the things I like in broodwar that werent implemented (see below)
What I like about broodwar:
-the fast pace
-the totally separate tech trees. That really was a masterwork in RTS balancing.
-the subtle balance you have to find in each game beetween rush/tech/economics and the very little room for mistake allowed (which is mainly negated by heroes in WC3)
What I dislike about broodwar:
not much, actually. I was gonna bitch about turtling, that is so predominant in PvT or PvZ games, but in fact I think it's ok. The ability to turtle has also interesting tactic implications...
What I may enjoy in SC2
aside from the good points I stressed below, some new features might be interesting, depending of course of their implementation:
-different scales of play, like :
1) planets, ressources, fleets management, trade, warfare, treasons, etc... A bit like civilization in space but not shitty multiplayer...
2) spatial tactical battles, in full 3D, like homeworld but not boring...
3) planet ground tactical operations, like our beloved broodwar
4) small guerrilla warfare, like the commando missions in single player, or micromaps on battle.net
5) even a bit of tactical first person view might be enjoyable if it did blend smoothly into the rest of the game...
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On September 13 2004 07:31 GosuAce wrote:
I agree with too colorful and distracting effects in W3..
Graph needs to be nice but simple .
Graph in SC is already nice and simple... we dont need SC2
SC is already perfect (well they might still upgrade the battlenet options like those in W3)
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I don't want them to make a StarCraft 2. Because no matter how good it is, we'll be disappointed and the SC community will get split.
If they do one however, I think the main purposes of the game (balance between massing-teching-exing and Macro-Micro) should be kept, though I'd like to go a tiny bit more to the micro side (Macro is a bit more important in SC imo, and I'd like it to be the other way round).
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www.sclegacy.com Blizzard just shut down the C&C generals total conversion. omgogmogm
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I think that 3D is NOT a good idea at all. Starcraft 2 should be exactly that - a sequel to the greatest game ever devised. To be honest I'm not getting my hopes up though. They have a tough job ahead of them to make another game that is even 1% as good as the original.
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Good inputs so far from a lot of people.
I will put together a big post, collecting from the ideas from many of the posts in this thread in which I feel are intelligent and contribute it to the Blizzard forums once it is up and running again.
Again, I encourage that if anyone feels that they have a valid statement to speak out, post in the blizzard forums. That is where your voice will be heard and matter most.
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nice post gricha, you should repost it in the blizzard forums
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On September 14 2004 01:18 SoL.Origin wrote:
nice post gricha, you should repost it in the blizzard forums
Well thank you, Origin.
I wouldn't post it there had it been my intention, since I can't access blizzard forum at work. If you really think it's worth something go ahed and post it, I sure don't mind...
But I am pretty sure you guys could come up with other things, and find other ideas, other must-haves of the RTS of your dreams... That's pretty fun to fancy: you got to think outside the starcraft box...
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What I'd like to see in SC2:
No terran. I'm fond of them, you guys say it's a balanced game, but see replay pages and guess who's ruling the world, with tons of terran mediochre players beating the best protoss or zergs. Or at least a way to autowin vs terran >
Obs games. Imagine if you could see the pros totally online while playing, but without interferring their game. So connect to the game, let's say 10000 people watching that game, and if you see it jumping, or you fall... bad luck.
Little 3D effects, but not the engine. In fact, the best games ever don't have good graphics. Chess, tetris, mario bros, starcraft, anybody tried angband?
No heroes.
No 1 million units selected. Neither multibuilding selection.
No autocast.
I had seen a starcraft remake. I second that.
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Norway10161 Posts
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About the grapichs issue...
I think all we "har-core" bw-players who REALLY REALLY love the game as it is would love to see a sequal with 2D grapichs because we like the simplicity and clearness of bw. Tho one must understand that blizz intends to sell this game to a larger public in europe/usa also and you have no idea (or mby u have?) how many kids that would choose "Tanks Battle Super 3D Mega!" instead of starcraft 2 if it was in 3d, so I think that's basically an issue of making money or not...
Personally, I hope blizz won't let wc3 influence sc2, only to a certain extent. However, if u look on how much sc/bw influenced wc3 u realise that if sc2 will be different, it will prolly be different from wc3 as well.
I'd like a combination of soft and hard couters, which I think bw has. And if another race is added, the most important thing (cept making the game actually balanced) would be originality as many of u already have mentioned.
Also, what makes sc/bw so good is how so much can depend on the map u r playing. I mean, in wc3 all maps seems to ply on the same basis, not like sc/bw where u have to play totally different PvZ on for example Korhal then u do on LT.
Don't know what else to say, u guys pretty much said it  Fakesteves post was awesome, I really hope blizz reads that... And I hope someone realises the importance of actually contacting pros in Korea for their feedback, that should be one of their main priorities because I doubt anyone knows more about the game itself than them and even tho they are not game designers, we should remember that neither are we... Think about how it would be with yellow, boxer, reach, rA, july and oov in the same room brainstorming
Peace
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EPT
