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On April 10 2004 21:15 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
rugbug, lvl 1 upgrade is 100 more than the nearest things at 166 roughly a +160% step up. there's nothing else in the game gapped so large in the time it takes, nothing close to a 100 or a +160% gap. i kno a lot of ppl think whatever the current ver is absolutely perfect, but can anyone see anything added to the game by any change whatsoever? those are the people i'm asking what they think :|
But your point is simlpy moot, what will dropping it a little do? you're going to have to cut it off somewhere, are you gonna keep dropping it until it's in the exact same range as the other high-time buildings?
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how is it moot? right now, it's not worth it to go upgrade first against ANY build. it's CRAP. furthermore, e.g., you can't react to a ridiculous turtle by upgrading. you're better off teching or expoing, OR BOTH. the only situations where you are even tempted to delay teching, expoing, powering, pressure, fuck, anything, are situations where you have to get the upgrade regardless of your opponent (if you choose to) in order to have it at a point that early enough for the decision to have any value. it follows a strict, mindless rule. when spending the cost of the upgrade will have NO impact on the current game, then get it. imo, there is some point where you could lower it to where this rule would not always apply.
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On April 10 2004 22:08 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
how is it moot? right now, it's not worth it to go upgrade first against ANY build. it's CRAP. furthermore, e.g., you can't react to a ridiculous turtle by upgrading. you're better off teching or expoing, OR BOTH. the only situations where you are even tempted to delay teching, expoing, powering, pressure, fuck, anything, are situations where you have to get the upgrade regardless of your opponent (if you choose to) in order to have it at a point that early enough for the decision to have any value. it follows a strict, mindless rule. when spending the cost of the upgrade will have NO impact on the current game, then get it. imo, there is some point where you could lower it to where this rule would not always apply.
There are PvZ build orders where they delay their advancement of macro and tech to get +1. There are TvZ bos where the terran goes double ebay in order to do a powerful rush. In 3-4 hatch hydra styles, a fast +1 is used. You can't tell me that they just throw that in because they're rich. It is NECESSARY.
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Ok. Now what's the fuckin' point of this debate? After all nothing will be fixed. Will Blizzard ever consider to change the upgrade time just for the reasons you come up with, Stimey?
Personally I think the upgrade time should not be changed again. It's just perfect.
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always seems muta upgrades take forever
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Yeah 3/3 muta or guards are only a fantasy.
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upgrades do alot more in bw than in wc3. i dont actually see the material difference in wc3, an unupgraded army can be healed/microed and still come out on top of an upgraded army easily.
yet in bw the minute u start those upgrades ur units have a definative edge, +1 weaps for zeal
1/1 upgrades for rine >.<
in regard to the strategy argument i think its great because a player can choose to upgrade/notupgrade depending on how long he thinks the game will last, DOES IT PAY OFF? on top of that will it hurt his macro by going 2forge/armory/evochamber upgrades. of course it will, but thats why u can expand and power harder in starcraft more than other strategy games.
before u start dissing upgrades take a good look and see if u can use the 266 build time to ur advantage. is it worth it? are u saving money compared to ur opponent? does the cost of it give u a sizeable advantage. u make these decisions with other ability/spell upgrades, so why not take a half a second to think if u can sustain/benefit from an upgraded army that will tear through the enemy twice as fast while sustaining a fair amount more damage.
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People saying the upgrade system is perfect are joking. What I find really ironic is how Ultra Armor Up gives 2 armor and yet its not even as long as Singularity? Or Scout ups? -_-;; It should take the equal of 2 armor upgrades. I think the game would be added some interesting strats if Weapon/Armor etc ups were cut by 20% or so.
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b111y, your quote sucks. Youre not funny either. Go away.
mk
ultralisk cost 200/200 and the armor upgrades only effect ultralisk. carapace armor effects every zerg ground unit. zerg ground units are cheap.
upgrade system is perfect imho. Upgrades are an investment that put you at a disadvantage when you first put money into them but pay off later 10 fold. the length of time it takes to upgrade adds to the strategic value of the game. You have to weigh the costs/rewards before any putting money into any investment and upgrades are no different
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Scout ups are ridiculous, either way they suck. And when I meant Ultra armor should = 2, i meant cost wise, so around 300/300. Cuz 200/200 will help you make a fast scout... that dies to marines. Or... a Ultra that won't ever pretty much die to marines.
Yeah Up system pays off later, but some ups aren't really well done.
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On April 11 2004 04:01 SuperJongMan wrote:
Scout ups are ridiculous, either way they suck. And when I meant Ultra armor should = 2, i meant cost wise, so around 300/300. Cuz 200/200 will help you make a fast scout... that dies to marines. Or... a Ultra that won't ever pretty much die to marines.
Yeah Up system pays off later, but some ups aren't really well done.
Scouts aren't used anyway, so I think these upgrades really don't need to be discussed.
And if you make the ultra upgrade the way you stated before, like, cost and length of 2 armor ups, it would almost reduce the ultra to the usefullness it has in starcraft, none. Ok, it still has the bw-speed, but I think you get the point
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its perfect ive gone threw so many strategys. this game is a peice of art. i guess they fired the guy who worked on that stuff. what a shame
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some units like: DA, Queen, Scout, Infested Terran, in some part Ghost
could be tweaked a little bit and their upgrades too (especially the poor scout).
But the only unit that should be changed fast is the Devourer (maybe it should make say 40 dmg to big, 25 to medium and 25(?) to small? or just 35 dmg vs all air).
The time it takes to do most upgrades is good, you invest in them, not just add them when you can. If you know when to start upgrading you win, it takes long time to do them, so that noobs cannot make them quick if they forgot.
BTW. Don't you have to much free time? 
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Norway28675 Posts
stimey there's no good reason why the upgrades should cost less. and there are plenty of strats involving fast upgrades, it's very common both tvz and pvz.. I probably forge before core in ~40% of my pvz games, because I want +1 attack.
in warcraft 2, the upgrades were far too significant and fast, it kinda broke the game.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On April 11 2004 04:24 Fedaykin wrote: Show nested quote +On April 11 2004 04:01 SuperJongMan wrote:
Scout ups are ridiculous, either way they suck. And when I meant Ultra armor should = 2, i meant cost wise, so around 300/300. Cuz 200/200 will help you make a fast scout... that dies to marines. Or... a Ultra that won't ever pretty much die to marines.
Yeah Up system pays off later, but some ups aren't really well done. Scouts aren't used anyway, so I think these upgrades really don't need to be discussed. And if you make the ultra upgrade the way you stated before, like, cost and length of 2 armor ups, it would almost reduce the ultra to the usefullness it has in starcraft, none. Ok, it still has the bw-speed, but I think you get the point
scout counters bc/carriers in pvt/pvp.. haven't u ever noticed how hard upgraded scouts owns carriers? and I think its nothing wrong with the upgrade system... as some1 said be4 me "why fix something when its not broken?" also even if there r good reasons to fix it then blizz won't do it anyways so pointless discussion... why am i posting here? (><)
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EPT
