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Is this map even remotely balanced?

Forum Index > BW General
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Excel Excel
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
142 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 03:44:00
February 21 2010 03:41 GMT
#1
RepDepot DL link:
Sigma v0.31b

EDIT> NEW VERSION:
[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler +
I pulled this map out of my behind a while earlier today; although on first sight it does not look too bad, closer scrutiny could reveal some ridiculously lopsided imbalances...

[image loading]


(Mains are buildable, stacked basilica are vision and hit% tested)

Please comment and give feedback if you can; I would really appreciate it if some general tips regarding racial imbalance could be given for me to keep in mind in the future. Thanks .
"SCREW OBSERVERS MUST HAVE MOAR ARBITERS!!!11one1" - Famous last words
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
February 21 2010 03:44 GMT
#2
The zergs seems to have a real easy time holding a third gas...
Moderator<:3-/-<
kaisr
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada715 Posts
February 21 2010 03:45 GMT
#3
at first glance it looks very t sided because it looks like t can defend 4 expos very easily
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-21 03:45:38
February 21 2010 03:45 GMT
#4
Looks like TvP could be painful on this... Without carriers I'm not sure how P is gonna win
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
February 21 2010 03:47 GMT
#5
Oh god, the naturals. THE NATURALS!

The rest of the map looks half-decent BUT THE NATURALS!
funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
February 21 2010 03:48 GMT
#6
The major issue i see is that the natural expansion isn't directly in the path of the main. (i.e. you can walk straight in to the main bypassing natural). this is is a problem because it means zergs won't be able to make a sunken line that actually protects them in ZvT. Im sure you can think of the similar problems people will face in other matchups too.

Other than that, theres some wasted space in the middle of the map. no real suggestions about how to fix that though, since i dont know much about map making.
agarfin
Profile Joined May 2009
United States106 Posts
February 21 2010 03:51 GMT
#7
Terran can hold the mineral only expansion extremely easily with tanks inside the main. Also zerg can hold the 3rd gas easily. Muta harass also looks very strong at the natural, the terrain right behind the mineral line and lack of room for units/turrets could be a problem.
pioneer8
Profile Joined January 2010
United States143 Posts
February 21 2010 04:01 GMT
#8
Tanks are really good on this map because the high ground pod of the main is so big and stretches to the natural and what looks like two mineral onlys. The third gas in the bottom left and top right can also be easily taken by tanks and it would be easy for terran to take their entire side of the map.
gumbum8
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States721 Posts
February 21 2010 04:38 GMT
#9
TvP: terran can get and hold 4 ez expos
ZvT: as funnybananaman94 said, no unified sunken line- Z HAS to 3 hatch. and mech seems strong.
ZvP: IF zerg could manage to survive early game, I think it's pretty heavy Z favored. but early game could provide challenges because of the possibility of proxy gates.
but really, has anyone REALLY been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
February 21 2010 04:45 GMT
#10
Post on BWM. Get more and usually more accurate advice.
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-21 05:05:42
February 21 2010 04:57 GMT
#11
extremely easy to hold 4 bases... which makes ZvT and TvP pretty ez.

I would suggest making the 3/9oclock bases easier to maneuver through, and make the min-only near the nat much more "in the middle" (like out in the open).
:)
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
February 21 2010 04:57 GMT
#12
Looks like the crap in the middle, the bridges and the close expos make it a T map in PvT. The P could try to move around the terran army to counter but the small choke makes that pretty hard to do. For that same reason I believe it would be Z>T.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
HazMat
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States17077 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-21 05:01:48
February 21 2010 05:01 GMT
#13
First thing I noticed.

[image loading]


Free min only for Terran.
Red circle on top is where Terran could put tanks to get that expo.
The red line on the bottom is where the Protoss would have to have dragoons to get 3 bases.
www.youtube.com/user/ShakeDrizzle | League and SSBM content creator | Armada's Youtube Editor
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
February 21 2010 05:31 GMT
#14
nobody mentioned muta harass on the natural?

its like match point in that people don't build turrets behind the natural because they're not very effective, but its not like MP in that marines can't hit the mutas harassing the miners as easily because not only is the cliff only vulnerable on one side, but the marines have a hard time going behind the natural minerals
Nony is Bonjwa
Kwidowmaker
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada978 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-21 05:34:46
February 21 2010 05:34 GMT
#15
addition is commutative so all the positional imbalances are gone

addition is associative so it's racially balanced (ie: z v p = p v z)

looks good to me !

-edit- ... wait
Kk.
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
February 21 2010 05:38 GMT
#16
you might want to put the left center expansion's gas on the bottom, because unless you have mines and turrets sufficiently placed above, storm drops could come and own, and since right-center's gas is away from storming distance from the cliff, it would make it more balanced imo
Nony is Bonjwa
TriniMasta
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1323 Posts
February 21 2010 05:47 GMT
#17
Terran can hold a mineral only with 3 tanks in the main
정명훈 FIGHTING!!! Play both T and P.
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-21 05:57:25
February 21 2010 05:55 GMT
#18
Stop asking if a map is balanced or not on tl. Just remember instead of wasting your time making the op, all maps submitted by user is Terran favored, and there is nothing you can do to change the opinion of the community that user made maps are totally Terran favored. Edit the map all you want but most people will always say tanks are imba here despite your efforts.
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
February 21 2010 05:56 GMT
#19
Looks fine. People always judge maps based on how Tanks can be abused. They are stupid.
Moderator
Sight
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States148 Posts
February 21 2010 05:58 GMT
#20
On February 21 2010 14:56 Chill wrote:
Looks fine. People always judge maps based on how Tanks can be abused. They are stupid.

Don't bypassable nat's generally favor certain MU's?
Dgtl
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada889 Posts
February 21 2010 06:00 GMT
#21
This map looks kinda hard for a z to take a 4th gas. Kinda has to spread out and move into the t's/ p's base almost
^______________^
Excel Excel
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
142 Posts
February 21 2010 14:42 GMT
#22
On February 21 2010 14:55 YPang wrote:
Stop asking if a map is balanced or not on tl. Just remember instead of wasting your time making the op, all maps submitted by user is Terran favored, and there is nothing you can do to change the opinion of the community that user made maps are totally Terran favored. Edit the map all you want but most people will always say tanks are imba here despite your efforts.


*shrug*

At least it's less imba than this...

[image loading]
"SCREW OBSERVERS MUST HAVE MOAR ARBITERS!!!11one1" - Famous last words
JFKWT
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore1442 Posts
February 21 2010 15:19 GMT
#23
^butbutbuttt tanks can fire over the assimilators =p
The calm before the storm / "loli is not a crime, but meganekko is the way to go!"
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 21 2010 15:35 GMT
#24
Battle Royal is a great map

stop hatin'
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66155 Posts
February 21 2010 16:00 GMT
#25
On February 22 2010 00:35 Mindcrime wrote:
Battle Royal is a great map

stop hatin'

Yeah man, if you play other match ups instead of ZvZ, it's pretty fun.
POGGERS
SkepTicAL
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada872 Posts
February 21 2010 16:21 GMT
#26
On February 22 2010 00:35 Mindcrime wrote:
Battle Royal is a great map

stop hatin'

..... I hope that was sarcasm.
AeriALsLighT @AerialsLight
prOxi.Beater
Profile Joined December 2008
Denmark626 Posts
February 21 2010 16:38 GMT
#27
TvP the terran can get 5 bases just by protecting two chokes, which is a big issue IMO. Overall I like the map though.
Nobody beats the Beater
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
February 21 2010 18:30 GMT
#28
On February 22 2010 01:00 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2010 00:35 Mindcrime wrote:
Battle Royal is a great map

stop hatin'

Yeah man, if you play other match ups instead of ZvZ, it's pretty fun.

ZvZ is awesome on it.

Therefore, BR is awesome too. <3
Moderator。◕‿◕。
Stuslegend
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Canada168 Posts
February 22 2010 00:56 GMT
#29
looks like a great map, imo


actually playing+testing the map > these theory crafters though
stork can have my kids in his mouth any time... no homo O_O'
Excel Excel
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
142 Posts
February 22 2010 02:26 GMT
#30
On February 22 2010 09:56 Stuslegend wrote:
looks like a great map, imo


actually playing+testing the map > these theory crafters though


This?
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31889

Last 10 minutes of rep was Terran failing to GG on 0 bases to 6, so the "low" APM is not indicative of actual skill.
"SCREW OBSERVERS MUST HAVE MOAR ARBITERS!!!11one1" - Famous last words
lavion
Profile Joined September 2009
Singapore286 Posts
February 22 2010 02:55 GMT
#31
this map is really good for plays such as reaver drop and vulture drop
Flash for bonjwa
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
February 22 2010 03:09 GMT
#32
why does the main above look bigger than the one below?
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Excel Excel
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
142 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-22 03:14:42
February 22 2010 03:13 GMT
#33
On February 22 2010 12:09 SilverSkyLark wrote:
why does the main above look bigger than the one below?


It's probably the gas placement that makes it look that way, but it's not.

I updated with a new version in the OP that hopefully addresses some concerns.

On February 22 2010 01:21 SkepTicAL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2010 00:35 Mindcrime wrote:
Battle Royal is a great map

stop hatin'

..... I hope that was sarcasm.

He's zerg. What do you expect? XD
"SCREW OBSERVERS MUST HAVE MOAR ARBITERS!!!11one1" - Famous last words
RageOverdose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States690 Posts
February 22 2010 03:33 GMT
#34
I'd love to actually try this map. I'm all for new maps. Better than playing Python all day.

Even if it is/isn't balanced, it's still fun to try people's maps. Is there a way to get this map, or are you just trying to test it and get it evaluated first before letting anyone try it for funsies?
Excel Excel
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
142 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-22 03:45:33
February 22 2010 03:45 GMT
#35
On February 22 2010 12:33 RageOverdose wrote:
I'd love to actually try this map. I'm all for new maps. Better than playing Python all day.

Even if it is/isn't balanced, it's still fun to try people's maps. Is there a way to get this map, or are you just trying to test it and get it evaluated first before letting anyone try it for funsies?


I can upload this to BWMN along with my other 2 maps later, but I want to be sure that it's at least reasonably balanced before releasing; I learned from the last two times I released.
"SCREW OBSERVERS MUST HAVE MOAR ARBITERS!!!11one1" - Famous last words
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
February 22 2010 03:52 GMT
#36
the new one is so much better than the previous one
Nony is Bonjwa
moopie
Profile Joined July 2009
12605 Posts
February 22 2010 22:05 GMT
#37
On February 22 2010 12:52 Nal_rAwr wrote:
the new one is so much better than the previous one

Agreed. looks like it could be balanced for PvT. Not sure about z's though. Still, looking good.
I'm going to sleep, let me get some of that carpet.
d(O.o)a
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada5066 Posts
February 22 2010 22:20 GMT
#38
Can tanks hit minerals from 11?
Hi.
KingKRule
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States84 Posts
February 22 2010 22:26 GMT
#39
Yeah, the positions seem pretty imba, there's like 3 starting locations clumped together at the top right and again at the bottom left.

Terran 60 hp scv rush + lift cc ftw
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
February 22 2010 22:28 GMT
#40
On February 23 2010 07:26 KingKRule wrote:
Yeah, the positions seem pretty imba, there's like 3 starting locations clumped together at the top right and again at the bottom left.

Terran 60 hp scv rush + lift cc ftw

Those are observer start locations.
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1240 Posts
February 22 2010 22:52 GMT
#41
On February 23 2010 07:26 KingKRule wrote:
Yeah, the positions seem pretty imba, there's like 3 starting locations clumped together at the top right and again at the bottom left.

Terran 60 hp scv rush + lift cc ftw


I'm still trying to determine if this was sarcasm.
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7881 Posts
February 22 2010 23:00 GMT
#42
On February 21 2010 14:56 Chill wrote:
Looks fine. People always judge maps based on how Tanks can be abused. They are stupid.

Especially since it always end up by saying that T>>>>P while there are really few maps on which terran statistically wins more often than Toss.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7881 Posts
February 22 2010 23:01 GMT
#43
On February 23 2010 07:52 Duckvillelol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2010 07:26 KingKRule wrote:
Yeah, the positions seem pretty imba, there's like 3 starting locations clumped together at the top right and again at the bottom left.

Terran 60 hp scv rush + lift cc ftw


I'm still trying to determine if this was sarcasm.

Obviously it was.

...

I mean... I think.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Excel Excel
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
142 Posts
February 23 2010 03:34 GMT
#44
Holy shit I just realized how similar this is to desti, and I wasn't even modeling this map after it O.o

Oh well, here's DL.
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=4039
"SCREW OBSERVERS MUST HAVE MOAR ARBITERS!!!11one1" - Famous last words
PhOeniX[MinD]
Profile Joined August 2008
361 Posts
February 23 2010 03:49 GMT
#45
natural is so big that recalls on pvt can be a pain in the ass, u cant cover all of that wwith turrets and mines.

and is true that u can defend the 3rd mineral base h just some tanks on the main but if he can take them with a drop or something the 3rd is too far to get reinforcement so is not that ez to defend
KT_FlaSh #1
LxRogue
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States1415 Posts
February 23 2010 03:55 GMT
#46
I played a TvP on this map and it does not seem T favored at all. The main-to-natural distance is huge and it's awkward to go up and down the ramp making it tough to defend recalls/drops.

Also the middle of the map is wideeee open. There aren't really any choke points on the map, except for the entrances to those side bases and your natural expo.
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