So something that has bugged me for a while is hearing commentators and people on IRC talk about how when you upgrade protoss shields, all it does is upgrade the regeneration rate of said shields, and therefore is a pointless upgrade.
I believe this to be wrong. Please watch this video:
Ok so, the DT kills the probes in 2 hits (with 3hp remaining after the first dt hit) with 3 shield upgrade and 1 hit without the shield upgrade. This to me infers that the shield upgrade is just like the +armor upgrade, reducing the damage taken per hit by that life source.
Am i right? Am i wrong? Have i missed something important?
It seems to me that while in most cases armor is a better thing to upgrade, what about late game ZVP play. If the zerg is using defilers (note my own level is barely D+), and plague is destroying your units HP reguarly, wouldn't you be better off upgrading shields? seeing as they're now your only source of hit points on your units?
Preeeetty sure shield works just like armor upgrade, except obviously only relative to the shield health itself (and armour is only relatively to the units health after shield is gone)... I have no idea where you heard the regeneration thing but i've never heard of that :|
Someone in IRC says they heard it from tasteless, i think i heard it from cholera etc etc. I'm just trying to debunk said myth, but it seems like i was the only one listening
Yeah I remember tasteless saying it but it's not true. it works just like any armor upgrade except for shields. the reason people sometimes get confused about it is because shields take full damage from any source, so vultures will still rape goon shields even though they should only do 25% etc which confuses people
On December 21 2009 19:42 Kiante wrote: imo the argument can be made to upgrade shields over armor when playing vs a competant zerg to combat plague
I guess but remember that shields are usually less than hitpoints and your zealots will take full damage in the shields from hydras. Shields are more expensive... you're best off going armor or both imo. But it's arguable I guess ;p
On December 21 2009 19:42 Kiante wrote: imo the argument can be made to upgrade shields over armor when playing vs a competant zerg to combat plague
While this is true, there are a few things to consider a: shields take full damage against everything, causing the shields to disappear rapidly, thus less hits (and less damage reduction) will come into play. More hits required on armor = more damage reduction. b: shields are very expensive. C: Plauge doesn't come into effect until the lateish game. Therefore, Armor is almost always preferable to shields until you can actually afford shields. + Show Spoiler +
On December 21 2009 19:42 Kiante wrote: imo the argument can be made to upgrade shields over armor when playing vs a competant zerg to combat plague
While this is true, there are a few things to consider a: shields take full damage against everything, causing the shields to disappear rapidly, thus less hits (and less damage reduction) will come into play. More hits required on armor = more damage reduction. b: shields are very expensive. C: Plauge doesn't come into effect until the lateish game. Therefore, Armor is almost always preferable to shields until you can actually afford shields. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, this is all really obvious.
I think you forget to factor in the regeneration of shields, WHen your zealot hits 0 shield and starts taking hits to his health, every other hit the shield will have regenerated 1 point, making the hit do -3 damage on the shield and then doing damage to the zeal (A 0-0 zergling vs a 0-0-3 zealot would then do 1 damage to the hitpoints instead of 5.)
Dunno how often the shield recharges but this really makes it worth it.
You need shield upgrades in lategame PvZ, or ultralisks will own your archons (Though ultras will still be slightly better than archons, which is why you either add in dark archons or reavers lategame). Armour doesn't help archons at all, which is why you need shields. And shields do act as armour for shields, removing damage taken when the shielded unit is hit.
On December 22 2009 06:30 vOddy wrote: You need shield upgrades in lategame PvZ, or ultralisks will own your archons (Though ultras will still be slightly better than archons, which is why you either add in dark archons or reavers lategame). Armour doesn't help archons at all, which is why you need shields. And shields do act as armour for shields, removing damage taken when the shielded unit is hit.
Archons always beat Ultras in a fight w/ even numbers, regardless of ups I think. That's why you see swarm used with Ultra/ling in PvZ, because they kinda suck without it, unless they seriously outnumber the protoss army.
i think the shield upgrade for archons is more so they can take a lot more ling firepire, barely anything to do with ultras...
eg: lings attack against archon (asuming fully upped lings) = 8 dmg per hit, with +3 shield its 5 dmg per hit, thats like 38ish% less dmg from lings your archon is taking
ultra attack against archon (assuming fully upped) = 26 (i think?) per hit, with +3 shield its 23 dmg... thats like 10% less dmg.
each shield upgrade basically therefor takes like 3.3% off the dmg of an ultra and 13ish% off a lings dmg to our archons (and other units shields ofc). You gota way up whether or not the insane cost of the shield upgrades is worth that... would be interesting to see someone come up with the math to see how big your army needs to theoretically be to make this the right choice (say, whether or not for 400/400 its worth getting an archon and a dt and 2 zealots or the 3rd upgrade)
The most appealing part of the shield upgrade i find is for units that have relatively small amounts of shields. This is because if a unit has say 40 hp and 1 shield left, and have 3 armor and 3 shield ups, the unit will take 6 less damage then normal because first 3 damage is taken off to attack the shields, then the left over damage is subject to the 3 damage reduction from the armor. This makes shield upgrades ideal versus units that have a slow attack rate.
On December 21 2009 19:42 Kiante wrote: imo the argument can be made to upgrade shields over armor when playing vs a competant zerg to combat plague
While this is true, there are a few things to consider a: shields take full damage against everything, causing the shields to disappear rapidly, thus less hits (and less damage reduction) will come into play. More hits required on armor = more damage reduction. b: shields are very expensive. C: Plauge doesn't come into effect until the lateish game. Therefore, Armor is almost always preferable to shields until you can actually afford shields. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, this is all really obvious.
D. Most Protoss units have more HP than they do shield points. E. EMP > Shields
Commentators and people on IRC say a lot of really stupid shit. That's why the only good commentators are the ones who aren't afraid to yell and be crazy, since otherwise it's just listening to them be wrong for 20 minutes.
I know so many mechanics and facts about this game, I kind of just assume everyone else knows too... But then you hear commentators say shit like 'I don't know why they moved the gas farther away on Katrina' and you just face palm (FYI it's to help subvert gas issue given how important gas positioning is on that map).
But yeah... If you seriously don't know gas on bottom and right need four peons, please don't try and be a technical commentator because it doesn't even sound like you're any good at sc.
I was always 100% sure it upgraded the Shield as it does armor, AKA it absorbs more damage. Unaffecting the regen rate. Though, I have no source.
I just want to say, that threads like this, make me love TL so much!!!!! Im just REALLY surprsied there isnt a more definitive answer on the nature of this upgrade atm...
edit: when fighting zerg I upgrade shields. when fighting terran I do armor. thats just the way I've rolled because of EMP. I always thought Shield in a neutral situation is more effective.. because it affects the shields on your troops, your probes, your structures and everything. So in PvP I do shield. I've also rolled a 3/3/3 army before, but as most anyone would point out, by the time you get around to that you must have already won the game in most every aspect anyways...
Shield upgrades work like armor upgrades, obviously whoever said otherwise is just wrong.
The problem with shields is they take full damage from everything, and the upgrades are waaay expensive. It seems like it's more important in PvZ because of archons, cannons, and plague, but if the progamers don't care about the shield upgrade, maybe that indicates that they're not even worth it.
But in some long PvZs, I've seen plenty of tosses (pro-scene) upgrade like this: 0/0/1 --> 0/0/2 --> (second forge) 1/0/2 --> 2/1/3 --> and eventually to 3/3/3.
But it feels like I see 0/0/1 --> (...) --> 3/0/3 pretty often, too.
On December 21 2009 19:33 Kiante wrote: So something that has bugged me for a while is hearing commentators and people on IRC talk about how when you upgrade protoss shields, all it does is upgrade the regeneration rate of said shields, and therefore is a pointless upgrade.
I've never heard this about regeneration. The regeneration rate is constant. What commentators have you heard talk about this?
3-3-3 Protoss upgraded ground is really good. The problem is that it's ridiculously expensive (approximately 2k/2k in total -- I'm sure someone will post a correction with the exact amount) and most of the time you find that money better spent elsewhere.
I find that exactly what upgrades I focus on depends on my army composition. +attack is always my number one priority, but the order in which I'll upgrade ground defense and shields varies depending on match-up and strategy. I focus more on shield upgrades when relying heavily on air and I try to balance armor and shields against Zerg, if that's of any help. As someone else said, you really need it for archons.
On December 21 2009 19:40 2longbe4 wrote: Still you rarely see a 3/3/3 Protoss army, why is that?
How often does a game go that late? armor/shields is no good against a terran armor, so most p's opt for like one armor and that's it. Against zerg you sometimes see it. Going 3-0 or 3-1 and then adding a second forge for 3-2-3 or 3-3-3 is pretty common. That's usually a pretty long game, and a lot of players don't remember to do it / prefer getting the extra templar or archon or whatever.
If ur going mass archon, shields > armor. lol =P. Most people go for armor because they don't think about it and it's the cheaper option. Also, damage and unit types come into effect with armor but not shields (ie. explosive damage [hydras] on small/medium units [zealots]).
i think the better question would be, would there be a double dip of shield and armor defense values on attacks that would drain both shield and hp value at the same time, for example a normal +0 weapon upgrade dt one shots probe without armor/shield upgrades, with a probe with +3 shield and +3 armor upgrades, would the armor defense values apply on a single strike that depletes the shield compleletly? ie:40dmg dt attack a +3 armor/shield probe would leave it at 3hp or 6hp?
On December 22 2009 09:44 Zoler wrote: ITS ONLY NOOBS WHO THINKS SHIELD ARMOR DOESN'T GIVE REAL ARMOR PLZ LOCK THREAD
Zoler, piss off and die. BTW isn't there a rule that says you can't type in all caps in a replay...
I guess you mean a thread? and sorry I'm just sick of 8167364 threads discussing this matter. How hard is it to test it out yourself? It takes 5 minutes at most. Lazy people
On December 22 2009 13:45 Shizuru~ wrote: i think the better question would be, would there be a double dip of shield and armor defense values on attacks that would drain both shield and hp value at the same time, for example a normal +0 weapon upgrade dt one shots probe without armor/shield upgrades, with a probe with +3 shield and +3 armor upgrades, would the armor defense values apply on a single strike that depletes the shield compleletly? ie:40dmg dt attack a +3 armor/shield probe would leave it at 3hp or 6hp?
I just tested it. It DOES double dip, so a probe with 3 armor/3 shield, when hit by an un-upgraded DT, has 6 hp left over.
Tasteless did say that it makes your shields regenerate faster. However, he was mistaken. As has been already said, it's the same as the armor upgrade except for shields.
I heard it first from tasteless too. I got in an argument with my younger brother about it who plays UMS only and has units with like a shitton of shields. So he was damn sure I was wrong. I looked stupid .
On December 21 2009 19:36 Ftrunkz wrote: Preeeetty sure shield works just like armor upgrade, except obviously only relative to the shield health itself (and armour is only relatively to the units health after shield is gone)... I have no idea where you heard the regeneration thing but i've never heard of that :|
Never ever have I heard anyone say that the regeneration rate of shields will be raised by the upgrade. Who is saying that?
On December 21 2009 19:33 Kiante wrote: So something that has bugged me for a while is hearing commentators and people on IRC talk about how when you upgrade protoss shields, all it does is upgrade the regeneration rate of said shields(...)
TBH never ever heard of this "myth" before.
Shield upgrades work just like armor, but: a) are way more expensive b) units have more hp than shield points
So most P's would rather buy this additional HT+goon than upgrade crappy shields. Reason why people don't upgrade is not because up is crappy but shields alone are crappy
Topics like this are reason why many people recommend playing vs computer first, this is one of first things you learn in campaign/skirmish lol
On December 22 2009 21:16 Kiante wrote: cz: how is watching english commentaries of pro starcraft games and talking on TL.net irc "hanging out with the ums and fastest crowds"
like already mentioned its the same as armor upgrade. Its not that much used since 400/400 is very expensive. regen bonus is bullshit Main reason to use it is Archon heavy PvZ army, which is SO MUCH stronger with shield upgrades.
I usually use this two ways: (used Weapon-Armor-Shield)
Way 1 - Shield based (vs zerg and sometimes protoss because of archons)
1-0-0 (1 forge) 2-1-0 (2nd forge added after 1-0-0) 3-1-1 3-2-2 3-3-3 this way u have 3-3-3 earlier but one less armor for a long time
or
Way 2 - Armor based (vs terran since no archons^^)
1-0-0 (1 forge) 2-1-0 (2nd forge added after 1-0-0) 3-2-0 3-3-1 3-3-2 3-3-3 (often i dont do this last up since its expensive) this way you need longer for 3-3-3 since u can only upgrade with 1 forge after 3-3-1, but u have 3 armor ups
I think stork upgrades his carriers 1-0-1 if he go carriers in PvT. Not sure why, but i think to prevent gols from easily killing the interceptors, since they take random shots from turrets/gol unless the progamer aims a few gols at 1 interceptor. When the interceptors went back to the carrier, it will regen the shield.
On December 22 2009 10:27 Korn wrote: I agree with vOddy. In late game P v Z, shield upgrades are great as they help archons and cannons significantly vs lings.
This. It's used to reduce crackling damage to cannons (and other buildings) mostly. And to reduce damage to the rest of the units.
+1 shield upg = -1 dmg to shields (just like armor)
and yes, if the unit regenerates 1 shield, and has +3 shield upg, it takes just 4 dmg from +3 zerglings. So every time the shield regenerates from 0 to 1 shield, it's -4 dmg. Not to mention the dmg reduction from max to 0 shield, every hit = -3 dmg.
As far as cannons are concerned, the have 100/100 iirc, so half of their health is on shields, and as lings use low dmg attacks many times in a short time, the +3 shield upg helps a great deal, reducing each attack by 3.
it isn't that shields regen faster but rather since you take more hits to deplete the shields you will get more regen before they are depleted.
It just serves as both an HP pool increase(assuming the unit is being attacked) and a damage reduction as well.
simple math to describe it if your shields last x seconds and regen y points before they are depleted then it follows if your shields last 2x seconds they will regen 2y points before they are depleted.
I hope this clears up any confusion about the regen issue.
On December 22 2009 20:37 cz wrote: I`ve never heard of any regen bonus. Stop hanging with the UMS and fastest crowds.
Considering that TL.net is one of the more reputable foreign SC sites and there are dozens of people who believed this was true, and that almost all UMS players actually know they're wrong, idk wtf you're talking about.
On December 21 2009 19:42 Kiante wrote: imo the argument can be made to upgrade shields over armor when playing vs a competant zerg to combat plague
While this is true, there are a few things to consider a: shields take full damage against everything, causing the shields to disappear rapidly, thus less hits (and less damage reduction) will come into play. More hits required on armor = more damage reduction. b: shields are very expensive. C: Plauge doesn't come into effect until the lateish game. Therefore, Armor is almost always preferable to shields until you can actually afford shields. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, this is all really obvious.
Can't be said better than this. Cost is too high early game considering what the upgrade does. Lategame if its a stalemate or a huge economic game I would def max it since things like cannons also get more armor from it + that archons will benefit alot more. Maybe after 4+ bases? Before that it feels like the gas could be put into more templars for better efficiency.
On December 21 2009 19:40 2longbe4 wrote: Still you rarely see a 3/3/3 Protoss army, why is that?
expensive. and rarely will you get into THAT late of a game...
0 sheilds, 3 armor, 3 attack is the way to go..
3/3/3 is... like... O__O;; wow.. late late. with like.. 3 forges xD
How can it be late late with 3 forges? If it's so late, wouldn't it be 2 forges, with shields upgrading after weapon is done?
On December 22 2009 20:37 cz wrote: I`ve never heard of any regen bonus. Stop hanging with the UMS and fastest crowds.
What does UMS/fastest have to do with anything? If anything, the UMS crowd would be way more informed about this, with all the maps where you get 50+ shield upgrades
When I said that you need to upgrade shields for archons to combat the zerg lategame, I didn't mean to specifically help vs the ultralisks themselves, but rather the ultra / defiler / crackling combination.
When their ultras have 5 armour and their lings have 3 armour, if your archons have 3 attack / 3 armour it's as if they have 3 attack / 0 armour, which obviously sucks vs an army of 5 / 3 ultras, 3 / 3 cracklings, and 3 defilers. If you are able to take a third gas quickly, sometimes it's even worth it going shields early.
Also, when you have 3 / 3 / 3 as protoss, it really shows, because while archons only benefit from attack and shield upgrades, normal units benefit from both armour AND shieds. They just benefit a whole lot more from armour since shields take 100% damage from everything and Protoss units generally have more HP than shields, but still, a 3 / 3 / 3 army backed up by 2 - 4 damage upgraded reavers can just plow through zerg as long as you don't fight under dark swarm.
Stork has gone for mass upgrades vs Zerg with great effect. He had armour, shield, and weapon upgrades. The zerg did NOT expect it and got owned so badly by Stork's superior units. 3 Forge ftw (If you have the money to support it)
Description of protoss shields and shield upgrade from Blizzard website:
Plasma Shields Defensive energy shields protect all Protoss military units, and this provides perhaps their greatest advantage in battle. During the Aeon of Strife, Protoss warriors used focused Psionic energy to surround themselves in impregnable energy shields. Over time, Conclave scholars and Templar sages learned to reproduce the energy shield using induced psi-field generators, which allowed even the smallest robotic machine to surround itself with a protective field. Protoss energy shields are effective at stopping all manner of physical and energy attacks, but they can be depleted during an attack. Given time, a shield will recharge to full strength, and Shield Batteries can be accessed to increases the rate of regeneration.
Protoss units are produced with full Plasma Shields and Protoss buildings are charged with shields during their warp-in process. When a Protoss unit or building is attacked, full damage (regardless of damage type) is applied to the shields first (if they haven't already been depleted) and you will always be able to tell if there are shields present in one of two ways:
* The top status bar, when selecting a unit or building, will indicate the amount of shields that unit/building has left. * Unit shields, when hit, will flicker around the unit at the moment of deflection.
Once the shields are gone, any attack damage will then be applied to the building or unit's health. Shields will regenerate at a slow pace, while health cannot be regenerated (a primary Protoss weakness).
If your units need their shields regenerated immediately, use the Shield Battery. The Shield Battery can recharge a unit's shields almost instantly, however, it cannot be used to regenerate the shields of buildings. The Shield Battery is also limited by the energy reserve it has built up and will only recharge two Plasma Shield Points for one Energy Reserve Point. It can hold a maximum of 200 Energy Points, which is enough to recharge the shields of almost any unit (except the Archon and Dark Archon, if their shields are fully depleted). Note that if you command the Shield Battery to recharge, it will simultaneously recharge the shields of all nearby units until its energy reserve is gone, so if you are planning to recharge the shields of an entire force at one time, make sure you build multiple Shield Batteries.
Shields Upgrades By far the most useful upgrade for the Protoss, the Plasma Shield upgrade will add to the shield maximum for all units and buildings. Combined with Armor upgrades, you can noticeably increase the lifespan of your units. As such, the Plasma Shield Upgrade should always be researched as early as possible.
This is weird, because I always thought that shields were just like armor, and I've actually never heard of the myth, and probably wouldn't believe it if I had heard it before either.
i remember nony and tasteless (i think) telling me it was only the "regen" of the shield.. but obviously i knew that was a joke and it worked like any armor upgrade except it also shielded your buildings aswell as units.
On December 23 2009 06:25 Jonoman92 wrote: I always thought +1 shield upgrade made it so an un-upgraded ling would do 4 instead of 5 damage to shields....
Never knew it affected the shield regeneration rate.
honestly faster regenerating shields sounds better than it acting like armor in some cases(assuming it increases the rate fast enough), especially for archons lol.
FYI toss players get the Armor upgrade first because it doesnt take full damage to everything, like shields do. Armor upgrade is also alot less expensive and the gas can be used elsewhere. Not saying shield isnt important, ull need it for archons superlategame. but Amor is much better.
Haha. The "Why Haven't You Updated Liquipedia" thread.
I've always felt that the shield upgrade was unreasonably expensive. There are two sets of considerations to take into account: Should you get shields over armor? Should you get shields at all?
Now only considering the first question, there are a few things involved. Shield regenerates. Armor does not. This means that as you are being attacked and your shield charges up a bit mid-battle, you are once again feeling the benefit of the shield upgrade. Awesome, what a bonus! S>A The vast majority of protoss units have more hp than sp. This means that armor is more valuable as it protects hp! Unless you are going for a lot of shield heavy units. That's the archons, and that's about it. A>S The above two roughly cancel each other out. A~S Shields can be drained instantly by EMP, Hp can be heavily drained by Plague. A>S PvT, S>A PvZ Shields affect air units and buildings, this is probably shield's greatest strength. S>A Damage types are interesting. I have tested this as I play fairly extensively on UMS RPGs. The armor and shield bonuses are applied before the damage type reduction is applied. This means that armor is tends to be better than shields, because shields will take full damage and be depleted faster. However, it is not as serious as if the damage bonuses were applied in the opposite order. This is similar to point 2. A>S
What we see tends to be A~S with each having its advantages and disadvantages. Therefore, it seems really weird that armor is so much less expensive than shield to upgrade. I do propose though, that the first shield upgrade is better than the third armor upgrade.
The "Should you get shields at all" question is a question brought on solely by the Shield's silly cost. 200/200 for the first one? That's pretty steep for something that does not clearly surpass its competitor (armor). The Blizzard quote earlier in this thread makes me think that Blizzard overestimated the shield upgrade, which is a pretty unfortunate accident given that this could have been a really interesting in-game strategic decision which has now boiled down to "shields are not cost effective."
On December 22 2009 09:44 Zoler wrote: ITS ONLY NOOBS WHO THINKS SHIELD ARMOR DOESN'T GIVE REAL ARMOR PLZ LOCK THREAD
Zoler, piss off and die. BTW isn't there a rule that says you can't type in all caps in a replay...
I guess you mean a thread? and sorry I'm just sick of 8167364 threads discussing this matter. How hard is it to test it out yourself? It takes 5 minutes at most. Lazy people
No one really gives a shit if you personally are sick of 8167364 threads that are discussing it. It takes EFFORT to come here and post in it. If you really hated it you wouldn't even fucking look at it.
EPT
