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10387 Posts
On December 22 2009 06:30 vOddy wrote:
You need shield upgrades in lategame PvZ, or ultralisks will own your archons (Though ultras will still be slightly better than archons, which is why you either add in dark archons or reavers lategame). Armour doesn't help archons at all, which is why you need shields. And shields do act as armour for shields, removing damage taken when the shielded unit is hit.
Archons always beat Ultras in a fight w/ even numbers, regardless of ups I think. That's why you see swarm used with Ultra/ling in PvZ, because they kinda suck without it, unless they seriously outnumber the protoss army.
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i think the shield upgrade for archons is more so they can take a lot more ling firepire, barely anything to do with ultras...
eg: lings attack against archon (asuming fully upped lings) = 8 dmg per hit, with +3 shield its 5 dmg per hit, thats like 38ish% less dmg from lings your archon is taking
ultra attack against archon (assuming fully upped) = 26 (i think?) per hit, with +3 shield its 23 dmg... thats like 10% less dmg.
each shield upgrade basically therefor takes like 3.3% off the dmg of an ultra and 13ish% off a lings dmg to our archons (and other units shields ofc). You gota way up whether or not the insane cost of the shield upgrades is worth that... would be interesting to see someone come up with the math to see how big your army needs to theoretically be to make this the right choice (say, whether or not for 400/400 its worth getting an archon and a dt and 2 zealots or the 3rd upgrade)
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On December 21 2009 19:40 2longbe4 wrote:
Still you rarely see a 3/3/3 Protoss army, why is that?
expensive. and rarely will you get into THAT late of a game...
0 sheilds, 3 armor, 3 attack is the way to go..
3/3/3 is... like... O__O;;
wow.. late late. with like.. 3 forges xD
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The most appealing part of the shield upgrade i find is for units that have relatively small amounts of shields. This is because if a unit has say 40 hp and 1 shield left, and have 3 armor and 3 shield ups, the unit will take 6 less damage then normal because first 3 damage is taken off to attack the shields, then the left over damage is subject to the 3 damage reduction from the armor. This makes shield upgrades ideal versus units that have a slow attack rate.
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must have been the sc2gg commentators
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On December 21 2009 19:53 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 19:42 Kiante wrote:
imo the argument can be made to upgrade shields over armor when playing vs a competant zerg to combat plague While this is true, there are a few things to consider a: shields take full damage against everything, causing the shields to disappear rapidly, thus less hits (and less damage reduction) will come into play. More hits required on armor = more damage reduction. b: shields are very expensive. C: Plauge doesn't come into effect until the lateish game. Therefore, Armor is almost always preferable to shields until you can actually afford shields. + Show Spoiler +Yes, this is all really obvious.
D. Most Protoss units have more HP than they do shield points.
E. EMP > Shields
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Commentators and people on IRC say a lot of really stupid shit. That's why the only good commentators are the ones who aren't afraid to yell and be crazy, since otherwise it's just listening to them be wrong for 20 minutes.
I know so many mechanics and facts about this game, I kind of just assume everyone else knows too... But then you hear commentators say shit like 'I don't know why they moved the gas farther away on Katrina' and you just face palm (FYI it's to help subvert gas issue given how important gas positioning is on that map).
But yeah... If you seriously don't know gas on bottom and right need four peons, please don't try and be a technical commentator because it doesn't even sound like you're any good at sc.
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I was always 100% sure it upgraded the Shield as it does armor, AKA it absorbs more damage. Unaffecting the regen rate.
Though, I have no source.
I just want to say, that threads like this, make me love TL so much!!!!!
Im just REALLY surprsied there isnt a more definitive answer on the nature of this upgrade atm...
edit: when fighting zerg I upgrade shields.
when fighting terran I do armor.
thats just the way I've rolled because of EMP. I always thought Shield in a neutral situation is more effective.. because it affects the shields on your troops, your probes, your structures and everything. So in PvP I do shield.
I've also rolled a 3/3/3 army before, but as most anyone would point out, by the time you get around to that you must have already won the game in most every aspect anyways...
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if you have a lot of archons, on the other hand, are you really gonna focus on upgrading armor?
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ITS ONLY NOOBS WHO THINKS SHIELD ARMOR DOESN'T GIVE REAL ARMOR PLZ LOCK THREAD
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Shield upgrades work like armor upgrades, obviously whoever said otherwise is just wrong.
The problem with shields is they take full damage from everything, and the upgrades are waaay expensive. It seems like it's more important in PvZ because of archons, cannons, and plague, but if the progamers don't care about the shield upgrade, maybe that indicates that they're not even worth it.
But in some long PvZs, I've seen plenty of tosses (pro-scene) upgrade like this: 0/0/1 --> 0/0/2 --> (second forge) 1/0/2 --> 2/1/3 --> and eventually to 3/3/3.
But it feels like I see 0/0/1 --> (...) --> 3/0/3 pretty often, too.
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I always knew it was a lie...
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United Kingdom10 Posts
I agree with vOddy. In late game P v Z, shield upgrades are great as they help archons and cannons significantly vs lings.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On December 21 2009 19:45 Mastermind wrote:
Shield upgrades are the same as armor upgrades except they work on the shields instead of hp.
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Mid Game with Mass Hydras, isnt is more beneficial to go Armor? Since Hydras do 10+ on shield and like 7(correct me if im wrong) on Zealots?
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On December 21 2009 19:33 Kiante wrote:
So something that has bugged me for a while is hearing commentators and people on IRC talk about how when you upgrade protoss shields, all it does is upgrade the regeneration rate of said shields, and therefore is a pointless upgrade.
I've never heard this about regeneration. The regeneration rate is constant. What commentators have you heard talk about this?
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On December 22 2009 09:44 Zoler wrote:
ITS ONLY NOOBS WHO THINKS SHIELD ARMOR DOESN'T GIVE REAL ARMOR PLZ LOCK THREAD
Zoler, piss off and die. BTW isn't there a rule that says you can't type in all caps in a replay...
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3-3-3 Protoss upgraded ground is really good. The problem is that it's ridiculously expensive (approximately 2k/2k in total -- I'm sure someone will post a correction with the exact amount) and most of the time you find that money better spent elsewhere.
I find that exactly what upgrades I focus on depends on my army composition. +attack is always my number one priority, but the order in which I'll upgrade ground defense and shields varies depending on match-up and strategy. I focus more on shield upgrades when relying heavily on air and I try to balance armor and shields against Zerg, if that's of any help. As someone else said, you really need it for archons.
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On December 21 2009 19:40 2longbe4 wrote:
Still you rarely see a 3/3/3 Protoss army, why is that?
How often does a game go that late? armor/shields is no good against a terran armor, so most p's opt for like one armor and that's it. Against zerg you sometimes see it. Going 3-0 or 3-1 and then adding a second forge for 3-2-3 or 3-3-3 is pretty common. That's usually a pretty long game, and a lot of players don't remember to do it / prefer getting the extra templar or archon or whatever.
If ur going mass archon, shields > armor. lol =P. Most people go for armor because they don't think about it and it's the cheaper option. Also, damage and unit types come into effect with armor but not shields (ie. explosive damage [hydras] on small/medium units [zealots]).
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i think the better question would be, would there be a double dip of shield and armor defense values on attacks that would drain both shield and hp value at the same time, for example a normal +0 weapon upgrade dt one shots probe without armor/shield upgrades, with a probe with +3 shield and +3 armor upgrades, would the armor defense values apply on a single strike that depletes the shield compleletly? ie:40dmg dt attack a +3 armor/shield probe would leave it at 3hp or 6hp?
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EPT
