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On December 03 2009 01:42 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 01:21 Scooge wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 ret wrote:
not understanding my point makes you pretty retarded. You can either agree or disagree with what I said, but if you've followed sc at all for the past few years you'd at least see both sides have some merit.
It just ends up being a debate about what TSL is really is, for me teamliquid, and TSL stands for the foreign 'community'. The community that has never had big tournaments (the last year has actually been quite good). A chance for the players to finally play for a 'real prize' against each other. A reward for the years of hard work everyone put in simply because they LOVE the game. The community that has always been in a dark corner of the world ever since warcraft 3 came out because the only thing we had was WCG. And a lot of countries didn't even have that. China has a pro-scene. China has MAJOR tournaments all year long. Chinese players make good money off SC.
Part of what makes a community is that among foreigners, everyone knows each other, we meet each other all the time in different tournaments, play online, all that stuff. We've all bitched to each other about how there should be more tournaments and asked each other ' is playing this game really worth it?' as we watched war3 pros rack in thausands of $. Chinese have never participated in the day to day routines of 'foreign' bw. F91 playing in liqubition.. He did that for money. And caused a shitload of lag problems for the players he had to face. Is that really an arguement as to why he's part of the 'foreign' community? They played (lagged) up a few clanwars with Fnatic for a couple of months BECAUSE fnatic paid them a big fat salary that ended up being fnatic sc's downfall.
For me the only reason that having anyone besides people that are from the 'foreign community' that most us know and love ( ok, maybe not love) is that the TSL is sponsored by a big company now that wants to see a return on their investment. I had not taken PGL into consideration, because I wasn't playing when it happend and never really gotten any word of it. But that does change things in favor of having Chinese players. slightly.
I have nothing against Chinese players, I know they are good people. But that's just my opinion.
There are numerous foreign players that do exactly what you just listed. They play purely for money. Does JF enter any tournament without a prize? Does Draco? Are they part of TL or post on the forums? Do they stream constantly and interact with the community? You can't restrict it to just Chinese players and try to paint the rest of the non-Chinese foreigner community as saints. Draco and JF have been in foreign tournaments and clanwars every weekend ( Draco not so much since he retired ) for years and years.
Draco even has a stream
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I liked it and have to agree on the f91 thing. I didn't know he was only flying to taiwan. But from an admin perspective you have to have VERY clear cut rules and when someone finds a "loophole" you either have to live with it or fix it. In this case i'd think fixing it would involve banning taiwan as well. Which would mean no Sen.... which would kinda suck, cause he's awesome.
F91 is one of the few chinese players that had had a bit of involvement in the community though. He's given more interviews that anyone, played liquibition and always been involved whenever ash had a team that started getting involved in non-chinese cws and that kinda thing.
If all of a sudden f91 and 10 of the other chinese top players flew to taiwan... that would be a problem that needed some solving imo. Hopefully the lag problems aren't too bad.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
great watch, had a good laugh ;p
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On December 03 2009 01:21 Scooge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:33 ret wrote:
not understanding my point makes you pretty retarded. You can either agree or disagree with what I said, but if you've followed sc at all for the past few years you'd at least see both sides have some merit.
It just ends up being a debate about what TSL is really is, for me teamliquid, and TSL stands for the foreign 'community'. The community that has never had big tournaments (the last year has actually been quite good). A chance for the players to finally play for a 'real prize' against each other. A reward for the years of hard work everyone put in simply because they LOVE the game. The community that has always been in a dark corner of the world ever since warcraft 3 came out because the only thing we had was WCG. And a lot of countries didn't even have that. China has a pro-scene. China has MAJOR tournaments all year long. Chinese players make good money off SC.
Part of what makes a community is that among foreigners, everyone knows each other, we meet each other all the time in different tournaments, play online, all that stuff. We've all bitched to each other about how there should be more tournaments and asked each other ' is playing this game really worth it?' as we watched war3 pros rack in thausands of $. Chinese have never participated in the day to day routines of 'foreign' bw. F91 playing in liqubition.. He did that for money. And caused a shitload of lag problems for the players he had to face. Is that really an arguement as to why he's part of the 'foreign' community? They played (lagged) up a few clanwars with Fnatic for a couple of months BECAUSE fnatic paid them a big fat salary that ended up being fnatic sc's downfall.
For me the only reason that having anyone besides people that are from the 'foreign community' that most us know and love ( ok, maybe not love) is that the TSL is sponsored by a big company now that wants to see a return on their investment. I had not taken PGL into consideration, because I wasn't playing when it happend and never really gotten any word of it. But that does change things in favor of having Chinese players. slightly.
I have nothing against Chinese players, I know they are good people. But that's just my opinion.
There are numerous foreign players that do exactly what you just listed. They play purely for money. Does JF enter any tournament without a prize? Does Draco? Are they part of TL or post on the forums? Do they stream constantly and interact with the community? You can't restrict it to just Chinese players and try to paint the rest of the non-Chinese foreigner community as saints.
pretty much what scooge said, although i would add Mondragon to the list( who did that team liquid attack but refuses to be active on any forum or whatever), and i find it extremely ironic that ret was talking in the interview about that foreigner that keeps to himself and doesn't really have any contact with the community but is one of the better zergs( Sziky?), he might as well be talking about f91. Basically ret offers 3 arguments.
1. He only plays for money and is not active within the community - scooge covered this
2. Lag - either make sure he doesn't lag or don't let him play
3. Language - this seems to me to be the actual problem, the chinese don't bother with learning english or communicating with the rest of the foreigners so that gives them somewhat of an "isolationist aura", which is then answered by something like:" Well if you don't want to bother trying to atleast form some basic communication with TL go fuckyourself" (of course not in those words but from what i gather this pretty much sums up incontrol's and ret's attitude towards the chinese scene). - about this i'm certain that if you got to know the chinese players(by them learning english or you learning chinese) they would be as friendly/good/bad as everyone else, so i don't really see the problem
Also ret mentions lag alot which is not f91's fault really, if they(TL or whoever) don't want him to play from taiwan or whereever then they should have said so. If you want to mention lag blame it on the TSL managment not f91. He asked if he could play and is now following instructions and all this animosity towards a guy who is doing basically the same thing as JF or Strelok or Koll or Draco(i'm kind of talking out of my ass here cause i'm not sure if any of these players post somewhere else or smth) is really pointless imo.
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On December 03 2009 01:42 ret wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 01:21 Scooge wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 ret wrote:
not understanding my point makes you pretty retarded. You can either agree or disagree with what I said, but if you've followed sc at all for the past few years you'd at least see both sides have some merit.
It just ends up being a debate about what TSL is really is, for me teamliquid, and TSL stands for the foreign 'community'. The community that has never had big tournaments (the last year has actually been quite good). A chance for the players to finally play for a 'real prize' against each other. A reward for the years of hard work everyone put in simply because they LOVE the game. The community that has always been in a dark corner of the world ever since warcraft 3 came out because the only thing we had was WCG. And a lot of countries didn't even have that. China has a pro-scene. China has MAJOR tournaments all year long. Chinese players make good money off SC.
Part of what makes a community is that among foreigners, everyone knows each other, we meet each other all the time in different tournaments, play online, all that stuff. We've all bitched to each other about how there should be more tournaments and asked each other ' is playing this game really worth it?' as we watched war3 pros rack in thausands of $. Chinese have never participated in the day to day routines of 'foreign' bw. F91 playing in liqubition.. He did that for money. And caused a shitload of lag problems for the players he had to face. Is that really an arguement as to why he's part of the 'foreign' community? They played (lagged) up a few clanwars with Fnatic for a couple of months BECAUSE fnatic paid them a big fat salary that ended up being fnatic sc's downfall.
For me the only reason that having anyone besides people that are from the 'foreign community' that most us know and love ( ok, maybe not love) is that the TSL is sponsored by a big company now that wants to see a return on their investment. I had not taken PGL into consideration, because I wasn't playing when it happend and never really gotten any word of it. But that does change things in favor of having Chinese players. slightly.
I have nothing against Chinese players, I know they are good people. But that's just my opinion.
There are numerous foreign players that do exactly what you just listed. They play purely for money. Does JF enter any tournament without a prize? Does Draco? Are they part of TL or post on the forums? Do they stream constantly and interact with the community? You can't restrict it to just Chinese players and try to paint the rest of the non-Chinese foreigner community as saints. Draco and JF have been in foreign tournaments and clanwars every weekend ( Draco not so much since he retired ) for years and years.
I think you understand my point, that there are a lot of foreign players who play simply for money. You can't say it's only the Chinese that come out when there's a big tournament prize and disappear from the community otherwise -- a lot of foreigners do that. It'd be impossible and subjective to enforce some blanket "YOU MUST PLAY THE GAME FOR LOVE!!" clause. There's nothing wrong with being interested when money is involved. Time is valuable and for some people hundreds of hours laddering -> qualifiers -> finals requires an added incentive.
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before i get my balls broken about mentioning draco and jf mondragon and other prominent players i admit i was kind of talking out of my ass, but i still stand by what i wrote and i'm sure you could find alot of people laddering that have no practically no connections to the 'foreign scene'.
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The "not playing the game for the love" line is pretty ridiculous when it comes from a guy that moved to Korea to get on to a proteam... I believe that you play because you love SC/BW, but this could change in the matter of a few games/days/weeks and then? You gonna disqualifie yourself?
If the lag will not be a problem then Chinese just make this tournament way more exciting for the watchers. Therefore i'm totally for as many of them as possible.
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On December 02 2009 12:58 iNfeRnaL wrote:
lol @ hwanni implying ret's gonna play minor league before idra does.
wow that was bm xD
-_- i want his jacket
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On December 03 2009 00:41 win8282 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 22:59 Oystein wrote:
Everyone seem to hype Nyoken so much tho every time I have played or obsed him he has not shown anything special imo. Maybe I have just been unlucky and only seen bad games from him or something, since I guess there must be some truth to it since everyone praises him so much. I sense jealousy in the midst.... you're a great player too oystein 
Haha none what so ever. I just find it weird that someone who I got the impression of being nothing but a mediocre player others consider a dark horse to win the biggest foreign tournament ever. I have played vs pretty much everyone they mentions in the interview and everyone else they consider good I also consider to be really good, so naturally I wonder what is wrong with my impression of Nyoken or if its something wrong with theirs, and since they are a lot who hype him I would assume there is something there that I have just not seen.
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On December 03 2009 00:32 cyronc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 23:35 emucxg wrote:
About the lagg
Is the diffrence so huge between Taiwan-Western and Korea-Westerm?? the problem with continental chinese ping / lag doesnt really origin in the distance issues (like it would be with taiwanese/korean users), its the Great Chinese Firewall Internet filtering / overwatch which makes playing SCBW on internet so unpredictable, thus hard. so the answer to your question should be: no there shouldnt be any big differences between korean / taiwanese internet connection
lol what that has nothing to do with it
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is this only chance for idra to wear cj jacket?
EDIT: his small jacket
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On December 03 2009 03:46 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 00:41 win8282 wrote:On December 02 2009 22:59 Oystein wrote:
Everyone seem to hype Nyoken so much tho every time I have played or obsed him he has not shown anything special imo. Maybe I have just been unlucky and only seen bad games from him or something, since I guess there must be some truth to it since everyone praises him so much. I sense jealousy in the midst.... you're a great player too oystein Haha none what so ever. I just find it weird that someone who I got the impression of being nothing but a mediocre player others consider a dark horse to win the biggest foreign tournament ever. I have played vs pretty much everyone they mentions in the interview and everyone else they consider good I also consider to be really good, so naturally I wonder what is wrong with my impression of Nyoken or if its something wrong with theirs, and since they are a lot who hype him I would assume there is something there that I have just not seen.
Nyoken is hyped up a little too much for my liking too. I mean, he's not a bad player by any stretch of the imagination, but putting him above the russian/ukrainian terrans? A darkhorse to win TSL? He'll drop out the second he meets anyone with a competent vT.
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I think it would be nice to have the chinese players(lagless) since they are all good and would make things very interested. But i definitely understand what ret is saying. TSL to him is the biggest foreign tourney chance for all the foreigners to get a great tourney with a nice prize pool. The chinese players have everything the kors have pretty much so this would be like an amateur korean trying to enter the tourney
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I don't mean to troll or anything, but
I think that if Ret and Idra are allowed to participate in TSL, the same rules should apply to other korean players. why are they treated exclusively ? just because they werent born in Korea ?
That's not fair (especially with idra, who actually owns progaming license) considering they train 8 hours/day with the best players in the world. They shouldnt be considered foreigners anymore
just my two cents, hoping for great tournament nevertheless
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I think if you wanna exclude the Chinese the reasonable explanation would be that they are essentially "professional SC players". I also don't think ret and idra should be allowed to play (or even the nonming guy bc of his professional SC associations) ... but the TL staff made them exceptions so not much the general public can do to change that.
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On December 03 2009 04:11 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 03:46 Oystein wrote:On December 03 2009 00:41 win8282 wrote:On December 02 2009 22:59 Oystein wrote:
Everyone seem to hype Nyoken so much tho every time I have played or obsed him he has not shown anything special imo. Maybe I have just been unlucky and only seen bad games from him or something, since I guess there must be some truth to it since everyone praises him so much. I sense jealousy in the midst.... you're a great player too oystein Haha none what so ever. I just find it weird that someone who I got the impression of being nothing but a mediocre player others consider a dark horse to win the biggest foreign tournament ever. I have played vs pretty much everyone they mentions in the interview and everyone else they consider good I also consider to be really good, so naturally I wonder what is wrong with my impression of Nyoken or if its something wrong with theirs, and since they are a lot who hype him I would assume there is something there that I have just not seen. Nyoken is hyped up a little too much for my liking too. I mean, he's not a bad player by any stretch of the imagination, but putting him above the russian/ukrainian terrans? A darkhorse to win TSL? He'll drop out the second he meets anyone with a competent vT.
hmmm i think he is known for his really strong TvT.
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On December 03 2009 04:29 khersai wrote:
I don't mean to troll or anything, but
I think that if Ret and Idra are allowed to participate in TSL, the same rules should apply to other korean players. why are they treated exclusively ? just because they werent born in Korea ?
That's not fair (especially with idra, who actually owns progaming license) considering they train 8 hours/day with the best players in the world. They shouldnt be considered foreigners anymore
just my two cents, hoping for great tournament nevertheless
Does Idra have a progaming license? I thought he never went through courage but just got an offer from CJ...
Edit: Also that whole situation has been discussed in length in here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105526
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On December 03 2009 04:29 khersai wrote:
I don't mean to troll or anything, but
I think that if Ret and Idra are allowed to participate in TSL, the same rules should apply to other korean players. why are they treated exclusively ? just because they werent born in Korea ?
That's not fair (especially with idra, who actually owns progaming license) considering they train 8 hours/day with the best players in the world. They shouldnt be considered foreigners anymore
just my two cents, hoping for great tournament nevertheless
The reason why ret and idra are allowed to play is that they participate in this community (ret streams... idra well, he is idra), but still ret is right when he says that they are both part of this community while the chinese and korean players (maybe excluding nongmin and scan [LOL]) have never shared anything with TL or the foreigner starcraft players at all.
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On December 03 2009 04:52 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 04:29 khersai wrote:
I don't mean to troll or anything, but
I think that if Ret and Idra are allowed to participate in TSL, the same rules should apply to other korean players. why are they treated exclusively ? just because they werent born in Korea ?
That's not fair (especially with idra, who actually owns progaming license) considering they train 8 hours/day with the best players in the world. They shouldnt be considered foreigners anymore
just my two cents, hoping for great tournament nevertheless Does Idra have a progaming license? I thought he never went through courage but just got an offer from CJ... Edit: Also that whole situation has been discussed in length in here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105526
of course he has a license you dont have to win courage, teams can give out so many a year.
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On December 03 2009 03:46 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 00:41 win8282 wrote:On December 02 2009 22:59 Oystein wrote:
Everyone seem to hype Nyoken so much tho every time I have played or obsed him he has not shown anything special imo. Maybe I have just been unlucky and only seen bad games from him or something, since I guess there must be some truth to it since everyone praises him so much. I sense jealousy in the midst.... you're a great player too oystein Haha none what so ever. I just find it weird that someone who I got the impression of being nothing but a mediocre player others consider a dark horse to win the biggest foreign tournament ever. I have played vs pretty much everyone they mentions in the interview and everyone else they consider good I also consider to be really good, so naturally I wonder what is wrong with my impression of Nyoken or if its something wrong with theirs, and since they are a lot who hype him I would assume there is something there that I have just not seen.
Actually I'm of the same opinion. I've always seen Nyoken as a decent american terran but nowhere near being a threat to take home tournaments. Every time Artosis hypes him I find myself thinking that I probably missed those replays where he really owned it up, yet I can't seem to find them. I'm all for terrans owning it up though, so go Nyoken!
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EPT
