• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:34
CEST 10:34
KST 17:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL61Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event21Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Practice Partners (Official) Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL ASL20 Preliminary Maps SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 543 users

[Music theory] The Major Scale

Blogs > [F_]aths
Post a Reply
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-06 01:41:32
February 10 2013 17:55 GMT
#1
This is an attempt to explain a bit of music theory.

[image loading]



The Acoustic Sensation

How we experience a piece of music depends on our personal experience which in turn is influenced by the culture in which we were raised.

The genetic code of all humans is very similar to each other. This means we can expect to have very similar brain 'hardware'. But there is more to it. The universe didn't have much choice because harmony depends on very simple concepts which are above physical laws.

Our human hearing sense has its root in fishes who already had a lateral line some umpteen million generations ago. Sensory cells with small hairs upon them – to amplify the sensation with the leverage effect – could sense pressure variations in the water.

As some fish developed lungs (a mutated part of the gut), getting a second source of oxygen, they were able to survive in ponds which dried out over the summer. Thick fins became primitive legs to crawl on the ground. While the gills were lost over the time, a part of the lateral line evolved into an organ we still have today – the ear.

Even the human ear still has sensory cells with small hairs upon them to amplify the vibrations. The faster they vibrate, the higher the pitch we perceive. The higher the amplitude in which they swing, the higher volume we perceive.

Natural Characteristics Of Sound

When a force strikes an item, it begins to vibrate. Depending on the material and shape of the items, it can generate an audible sound. This happens when the object transmits energy to the surrounding air, which in turn begins to vibrate. The density of the air increases and decreases, spreading sound energy to surrounding air and other objects nearby. We humans can perceive sound from about 20 of such vibrations per second to about 15000 of such vibrations. The physical unit is Hertz. 1 Hertz = 1 combined increase and decrease over one second.

The actual range of pitch we can hear depends on the age. We are losing sensitivity in the high pitch range first. Most humans quite sensitive at about 1000 Hertz regardless of age.

Almost any sound generated by a natural object consists of multiple pitches at the same time. Let's image a string which has a length and a strain applied on it to resonate with 100 Hertz when it is struck.

At first, the string needs some time to build up a clear sound. This can be described as the "attack phase", where the volume gets higher very quickly. At this time – often just a fraction of a second – no clear pitch can be discerned. But this phase has a great impact on how we perceive the overall sound.

However, for this blog we don't pay attention to the attack phase because we are interested in the sound once the string vibration built up.

We get a high volume sound at 100 Hertz, but also some volumes at integer multiples like 200 Hertz, 300, 400, 500, 600 and so on.

The Sound Processor In Our Head

In reality, the so called overtones are not exactly at those multiples, but often close enough. A certain stiffness of the string and other non-ideal circumstances cause deviations from the mathematical ideal. Still, those integer multipliers are the core of harmonics!

Even though the string propagates many different pitches, we just hear the base pitch of 100 Hertz. This is an advantage because all those tones are generated by just one object. Because of audio processing in our brain, which aligns those integer pitch multipliers to a single source, we perceive only one object emitting sound. The pattern of the volumes of those overtones in relation to the base pitch is perceived as tone color, as timbre.

A dull sound doesn't have high-frequency overtones with high volumes, whereas a screeching sound does. A common piano has more volume on even-number multipliers than on odd-number multipliers.

The perceived base pitch of a church bell is not even a part of the actual pitch spectrum, but reconstructed by our brain! Also due to its three-dimensional shape, which generates complex interactions, the overtone multipliers of a bell are far from being ideal. This is why the bell sound stands out compared to other, more naturally behaving musical instruments.


[image loading]


The Harmonic Series

What is true for a single sound, is also true for the musical scale of nature. Consider a column of air inside a flute or trumpet. You blow and apply pressure, causing the air to vibrate back and forth. Depending on the length of the instrument – the length of the air column – the inside air vibrates in resonance, giving you a particular pitch. Lets say you get 100 Hertz.

If you increase the pressure by blowing harder, you compress the waves until the entire column vibrates twice as fast. So you get 200 Hertz. Of course, each of those tones comes with its own overtones. But now we are exploring the base pitches.

The next higher tone you are able to play will be 300 Hertz, followed by a pitch of 400 Hertz and so on. The reason is simple: integer numbers of full wave lengths fit perfectly into the air column. As with the string, we are using an idealized model here. Actual brass instruments deviate more or less from the harmonic series.

Many brass instruments offer valves to change the lengths of the air column. This enables the musician to play more different notes using different natural tones combined with different valve positions.

Naming Notes: We Begin With The Letter A

Something is harmonic when it fits together well. If we play a note at a particular pitch, and another note with the pitch doubled, we also double the pitch of any overtone for that note. That means, we are not adding overtones to the lower-pitch sound! We just amplify every second one. That means we are just changing the tone color. These two notes match very well and are therefore very harmonic.

The interval of doubling or halving a pitch is called octave. Because setting a pitch into another octave doesn't change the harmonic relationship with other pitches very much, a musical scale needs to span just one octave and then can be repeated.

By an arbitrary definition, the note A in the octave number 4 is defined as a pitch of 440 Hertz. That means, A4 = 440 Hz. A5, one octave higher, has the frequency doubled, resulting in 880 Hz. A3, one octave lower, has the halved frequency, 220 Hertz.

Simple Intervals: Foundation of Harmony

The interval of factor 2 is too simple to generate a new note because we just change the octave of the same note. The next simplest ratio would be 2:3. That means, the second tone is by factor 1.5 higher than the first one. It is also common to express this ratio as 3:2, as 3/2 = 1.5, the factor we need. This blog however uses the order of "lower pitch : higher pitch", therefore 2:3.

This interval is called perfect fifth. The fifth is of great importance, because we can use it to calculate the pitch of the best fitting notes to any given note. Let's actually do it.

We have the note A4 and want to know the most harmonic pitch above A4. We calculate 440 Hertz * 1.5 = 660 Hertz. Now we want to calculate the most harmonic pitch below A4. We calculate 440 Hertz / 1.5 = 293.333... Hertz.

Both new notes (660 Hz or 293.333 Hz) have a strong relation to 440 Hz as both are just a fifth away.

Seven-Note Scales

Western music scales consists of seven notes and use the letters A through G. The history is quite complex, with the ancient Greeks using two symmetric 4-note-chords to form a 7-note scale. In the middle ages in Europe, the names of the Greek scales were mixed up. This blog will use the names assigned in the middle ages though, because they are used for the church modes and still used in jazz music today.

While the major and minor scales, which are widely used today, are not part of the authentic church modes, they fit into the same system. We will have a closer look at this later, once we know the major and minor scale.

The Starting Point For Our Major Scale

This blog will focus on the inner order of the major scale rather than its history. Also modern-named notes are used.

The major scale can be considered a series of perfect fifths. If we start with the first note and stack just four of the perfect fifths on top, we end up with a scale consisting of five notes. The difference between a string of fifths and a scale is that we push a note down an octave when required to fit all notes into the same octave.

That scale is called the pentatonic major scale, because it consist of five notes. Pentatonic scales are common throughout human history all over the world. The exact pitches differ, but the core idea is the stacking of four fifths on the first note – that interval is so harmonic, that it comes naturally to us. Of course, the very ancient Greeks used the five-note scale, too.

A Complete Major Scale

A seven-note scale requires some more thought and actual acoustic experiments, like some more recent ancient Greek mathematicians have done. That was roughly two and a half millenniums ago. They noticed the one-and-a-half-tone-steps between certain notes. The Greeks did it differently, but lets continue stacking fifths: From the last fifth we used to get the pentatonic scale, let's stack another fifth on top.

And from the from the first note – in our example, the note C – let's go a fifth backward. We now have seven notes in total. The white-key notes to be more precise, ordered by pitch: C-D-E-F-G-A-B.

If you want to do it on a piano, start with C and go five fifths upward, to G, D, A, E and B. Also one fifth downward from C, to F. You have now played all seven notes of the C-major scale.

Major Triads: Natural Sound

Remember the harmonic series? It begins with 1:2:3:4:5:6. Lets only consider the last part, 4:5:6. The factor 4 can replace the '1' and the '2' part of the series, because they represent the same note, just one or two octaves below. The factor 6 replaces the '3' part, because factor 6 is just one octave higher than 3. Remember: An octave shift means to multiply or divide by factor 2, and 6 = 3 * 2 (where '* 2' is the octave shift part of the caluclation.)

A chord with notes in the pitch ratio 4:5:6 is a major triad. Since it is also part of the harmonic series, any sound contains it own major triad. That is why a major triad sounds to natural, because it appears in (almost) any single sound itself!

The pitch between the first and the last note of a triad spans a perfect fifth. Since the perfect fifth delivers the most harmonic pitches to a given note, it should also provide the best fitting triads to a given chord.

A Triad Cadence

Back to our C-Major scale. The C-Major triad is C-E-G. The perfect fifth of C is G. So let's add a G-Major triad. It is G-B-D.

If we lower the pitch of C by a fifth, we get to F. F itself is also the fourth note in the major scale, so the interval from C up to F – instead of down to F – is called the perfect fourth. Let's see how the F-Major triad looks. It's F-A-C.

So all triads connected together gets us F-A-C-E-G-B-D. Again we have the full seven notes of the scale, but now explained with three triads. The root triad, the tonic triad, is in the middle. The two other triads are in strong relationship to the tonic center – because they are a fifth away from the tonic and therefore in a simple, easy to recognize relationship to the tonic.

To give us a complete picture of the C-Major scale, we can play an F-major chord, a G-major chord and a C-major chord. This chord progression is also called the authentic cadence. It has other names, too. The ability to play this authentic cadence with using only notes which are in the scale itself, was one of the reasons why the major scale went so successful.



Next blog: The minor chord and the minor scale.

*****
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
February 10 2013 18:23 GMT
#2
This broke my brain.
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
February 10 2013 18:53 GMT
#3
This is really cool, I've always loved math and loved music but never have taken any music theory courses or studied it. Can't wait for part 2!
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
February 10 2013 19:02 GMT
#4
Cool blog! I learned this stuff when I took AP Theory and it's still pretty mindblowing.
:)
green.at
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Austria1459 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-10 20:00:07
February 10 2013 19:59 GMT
#5
I'm a (hobby)musician and i despise music theory. But I enjoyed reading this, maybe it's a more scientific aproach that suits me better than what they throw at you in school.
Inputting special characters into chat should no longer cause the game to crash.
Solarsail
Profile Joined July 2012
United Kingdom538 Posts
February 11 2013 01:35 GMT
#6
If you follow all these rules, don't you just end up with something that someone's done before? Alternately, can you not make up something that sounds good without having read any of this?

Everyone left over is a member of the OP race and you have to figure out which one of them is the least OP. - CosmicSpiral
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-11 01:37:20
February 11 2013 01:36 GMT
#7
On February 11 2013 10:35 Solarsail wrote:
If you follow all these rules, don't you just end up with something that someone's done before? Alternately, can you not make up something that sounds good without having read any of this?


If you try to make up something that sounds good without reading this, you will probably end up playing I, IV, V anyway. Knowing some theory never hurts - it is not arbitrary. Plus, then you can talk to other people you are playing with and you will be talking the same language, rather than just playing random notes at each other.
shikata ga nai
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-11 01:57:02
February 11 2013 01:54 GMT
#8
On February 11 2013 02:55 [F_]aths wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

This is an attempt to explain a bit of music theory.

[image loading]



The Acoustic Sensation

How we experience a piece of music depends on our personal experience which in turn is influenced by the culture in which we were raised.

The genetic code of all humans is very similar to each other. This means we can expect to have very similar brain 'hardware'. But there is more to it. The universe didn't have much choice because harmony depends on very simple concepts which are above physical laws.

Our human hearing sense has its root in fishes who already had a lateral line some umpteen million generations ago. Sensory cells with small hairs upon them – to amplify the sensation with the leverage effect – could sense pressure variations in the water.

As some fish developed lungs (a mutated part of the gut), getting a second source of oxygen, they were able to survive in ponds which dried out over the summer. Thick fins became primitive legs to crawl on the ground. While the gills were lost over the time, a part of the lateral line evolved into an organ we still have today – the ear.

Even the human ear still has sensory cells with small hairs upon them to amplify the vibrations. The faster they vibrate, the higher the pitch we perceive. The higher the amplitude in which they swing, the higher volume we perceive.

Natural Characteristics Of Sound

When a force strikes an item, it begins to vibrate. Depending on the material and shape of the items, it can generate an audible sound. This happens when the object transmits energy to the surrounding air, which in turn begins to vibrate. The density of the air increases and decreases, spreading sound energy to surrounding air and other object. We humans can perceive sound from about 20 of such vibrations per second to about 15000 of such vibrations. The physical unit is Hertz. 1 Hertz = 1 combined increase and decrease over one second.

The actual range depends on the age. We are quite sensitive at about 1000 Hertz.

Almost any sound generated by a natural object consists of multiple pitches at the same time. Let's image a string which has a length and a strain applied on it to resonate with 100 Hertz when it is struck.

At first, the string needs some time to build up a clear sound. This can be described as the "attack phase", where the volume gets higher very quickly. At this time – often just a fraction of a second – no clear pitch can be discerned. But this phase has a great impact on how we perceive the overall sound.

However, for this blog we don't play attention to the attack phase because we are interested in the sound once the string vibration built up.

We get a high volume sound at 100 Hertz, but also some volumes at integer multiples like 200 Hertz, 300, 400, 500, 600 and so on.

The Sound Processor In Our Head

In reality, the so called overtones are not exactly at those multiples, but often close enough. A certain stiffness of the string and other non-ideal circumstances cause deviations from the mathematical ideal. Still, those integer multipliers are the core of harmonics!

Even though the string propagates many different pitches, we just hear the base pitch of 100 Hertz. This is an advantage because all those tones are generated by just one object. Because of audio processing in our brain, which aligns those integer pitch multipliers to a single source, we perceive only one object emitting sound. The pattern of the volumes of those overtones in relation to the base pitch is perceived as tone color, as timbre.

A dull sound doesn't have high-frequency overtones with high volumes, whereas a screeching sound does. A common piano has more volume on even-number multipliers than on odd-number multipliers.

The perceived base pitch of a church bell is not even a part of the actual pitch spectrum, but reconstructed by our brain! Also due to its three-dimensional shape, which generates complex interactions, the overtone multipliers of a bell are far from being ideal. This is why the bell sound stands out of more naturally behaving musical instruments.


[image loading]


The Harmonic Series

What is true for a single sound, is also true for the musical scale of nature. Consider a column of air inside a flute or trumpet. You blow and apply pressure, causing the air to vibrate back and forth. Depending on the length of the instrument – the length of the air column – the inside air vibrates in resonance, giving you a particular pitch. Lets say you get 100 Hertz.

If you increase the pressure by blowing harder, you compress the waves until the entire column vibrates twice as fast. So you get 200 Hertz. Of course, each of those tones comes with its own overtones. But now we are exploring the base pitches.

The next higher tone you are able to play will be 300 Hertz, followed by a pitch of 400 Hertz and so on. The reason is simple: integer numbers of full wave lengths fit perfectly into the air column. As with the string, we are using an idealized model here. Actual brass instruments deviate more or less from the harmonic series. Many brass instruments offer valves to shorten the air column to play different notes.

Naming of Notes: Beginning with Letter A

Something is harmonic when it fits together well. If we double the pitch of a tone, we also double the pitch of any overtone. That means, we are not adding overtones to the lower-pitch sound! We just amplify every second one. That means we are just changing the tone color.

The interval of doubling or halving a pitch is called octave. Because setting a pitch into another octave doesn't change the harmonic relationship with other pitches very much, a musical scale needs to span just one octave and then can be repeated.

By an arbitrary definition, the note A in the octave number 4 is defined as a pitch of 440 Hertz. That means, A4 = 440 Hz. A5, one octave higher, has the frequency doubled, resulting in 880 Hz. A3, one octave lower, has the halved frequency, 220 Hertz.

Simple Intervals: Foundation of Harmony

The interval of factor 2 is too simple to generate a new note because we just change the octave of the same note. The next simplest ratio would be 2:3. That means, the second tone is by factor 1.5 higher than the first one.

There is no other, more basic ratio than this interval. It is called perfect fifth. This interval is of great importance, because we can use it to calculate the pitch of the best fitting notes to any given note. Let's actually do it.

We have the note A4 and want to know the most harmonic pitch above A4. We calculate 440 Hertz * 1.5 = 660 Hertz. Now we want to calculate the most harmonic pitch below A4. We calculate 440 Hertz / 1.5 = 293.333... Hertz.

Both new notes (660 Hz or 293.333 Hz) have a strong relation to 440 Hz as both are just a fifth away.

Seven-Note Scales

Western music scales consists of seven notes and use the letters A through G. The history is quite complex, with the ancient Greeks using two symmetric 4-note-chords to form a 7-note scale. In the middle ages in Europe, the names of the Greek scales were mixed up. This blog will use the names assigned in the middle ages though, because they are used for the church modes and still used in jazz music today.

While the major and minor scales, which are widely used today, are not part of the authentic church modes, they fit into the same system. We will have a closer look at this later, once we know the major and minor scale.

The Starting Point For Our Major Scale

This blog will focus on the inner order of the major scale rather than its history. Also modern-named notes are used.

The major scale can be considered a series of perfect fifths. If we start with the first note and stack just four of the perfect fifths on top, we end up with a scale consisting of a five notes. The difference between a string of fifths and a scale is that we push a note down an octave when required to fit all notes into the same octave.

That scale is called the pentatonic major scale, because it consist of five notes. Pentatonic scales are common throughout human history all over the world. The exact pitches differ, but the core idea is the stacking of four fifths on the first note – that interval is so harmonic, that it comes naturally to us. Of course, the very ancient Greeks used the five-note scale, too.

A Complete Major Scale

A seven-note scale requires some more thought and actual acoustic experiments, like some more recent ancient Greek mathematicians have done. That was roughly two and a half millenniums ago. They noticed the one-and-a-half-tone-steps between certain notes. The Greeks did it differently, but lets continue stacking fifths: From the last fifth we used to get the pentatonic scale, let's stack another fifth on top.

And from the from the first note – in our example, the note C – let's go a fifth backward. We now have seven notes in total. The white-key notes to be more precise, ordered by pitch: C-D-E-F-G-A-B.

If you want to do it on a piano, start with C and go five fifths upward, to G, D, A, E and B. Also one fifth downward from C, to F. You have now played all seven notes of the C-major scale.

Major Triads: Natural Sound

Remember the harmonic series? It begins with 1:2:3:4:5:6. Lets only consider the last part, 4:5:6. The factor 4 can replace the '1' and the '2' part of the series, because they represent the same note, just one or two octaves below. The factor 6 replaces the '3' part, because factor 6 is just one octave higher than 3. Remember: An octave shift means to multiply or divide by factor 2, and 6 = 3 * 2 (where '* 2' is the octave shift part of the caluclation.)

A chord with notes in the pitch ratio 4:5:6 is a major triad. Since it is also part of the harmonic series, any sound contains it own major triad. That is why a major triad sounds to natural, because it appears in (almost) any single sound itself!

The pitch between the first and the last note of a triad spans a perfect fifth. Since the perfect fifth delivers the most harmonic pitches to a given note, it should also provide the best fitting triads to a given chord.

A Triad Cadence

Back to our C-Major scale. The C-Major triad is C-E-G. The perfect fifth of C is G. So let's add a G-Major triad. It is G-B-D.

If we lower the pitch of C by a fifth, we get to F. F itself is also the fourth note in the major scale, so the interval from C up to F – instead of down to F – is called the perfect fourth. Let's see how the F-Major triad looks. It's F-A-C.

So all triads connected together gets us F-A-C-E-G-B-D. Again we have the full seven notes of the scale, but now explained with three triads. The root triad, the tonic triad, is in the middle. The two other triads are in strong relationship to the tonic center.

To give us a complete picture of the C-Major scale, we can play an F-major chord, a G-major chord and a C-major chord. This chord progression is also called the authentic cadence. It has other names, too. The ability to play this authentic cadence with using only notes which are in the scale itself, was one of the reasons why the major scale went so successful.



Next blog: The minor chord and the minor scale.

yo Faths, did you study in the European tradition? I got the impression as you approach this very differently than my schooling. Like its not how I would describe it, but its not really incorrect.

Also, you approach harmonic ratios as 2:3 for example, is that how you learned it? I'm so used to seeing the reverse, so that a 5:4 ratio and a 32:27 ( < whats that ratio ;D) ratio would be the norm for me, as well as 3:2.

On the post, there might be a few things that I would nitpick about, for instance you mention moving a fifth from the fundamental (a440), but don't mention that it is the 5th scale degree when updward, but when downward is scale degree 4. so if you move by interval the intervalic content is inverted when moving in the reverse (3rd down would be a 6th up, etc..).

I dunno about using the word volume as an expression of amplitude though. sure its more colloquial, but volume sort of a less accurate description?

I might have also mentioned that the 'major' triad that exists in the harmonic series in fact not what everyone immediately assumes it to sound like, as because it is formed from natural acoustical relationships the third is far lower than an equal tempered third. Maybe just a short mention and then talk about that later?

Anyway, great post on it, I'll be interested to see how you talk about minor, other scale degrees and generally basic considerations.

Edit: to the above ^^, knowing the rules allows you to break them should you wish, because you know why it functions the way it does. Doesn't mean that you can't make good music w/ no theoretical background, but you'll never be as flexible as you could be if you did.
Administrator
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-11 11:12:23
February 11 2013 11:12 GMT
#9
On February 11 2013 10:54 wo1fwood wrote:
yo Faths, did you study in the European tradition? I got the impression as you approach this very differently than my schooling. Like its not how I would describe it, but its not really incorrect.

Also, you approach harmonic ratios as 2:3 for example, is that how you learned it? I'm so used to seeing the reverse, so that a 5:4 ratio and a 32:27 ( < whats that ratio ;D) ratio would be the norm for me, as well as 3:2.
I studied engineering, but was interested in music theory. The ratio expression with the higher number in the numerator is more common, but triads are still expressed as 4:5:6, with reversed order. So I use that order for intervals too, now I clarified it in the blog with an edit.

On February 11 2013 10:54 wo1fwood wrote:On the post, there might be a few things that I would nitpick about, for instance you mention moving a fifth from the fundamental (a440), but don't mention that it is the 5th scale degree when updward, but when downward is scale degree 4. so if you move by interval the intervalic content is inverted when moving in the reverse (3rd down would be a 6th up, etc..).

I dunno about using the word volume as an expression of amplitude though. sure its more colloquial, but volume sort of a less accurate description?
As I am no native english speaker, I would be thankful if you cite that part and propose another wording.

Complementary intervals will be covered at a later part, but more or less just mentioned as I focus on the sound on simple harmonic intervals.

On February 11 2013 10:54 wo1fwood wrote:I might have also mentioned that the 'major' triad that exists in the harmonic series in fact not what everyone immediately assumes it to sound like, as because it is formed from natural acoustical relationships the third is far lower than an equal tempered third. Maybe just a short mention and then talk about that later?
This question of the temperament and will be covered much later. It is one of the reasons why I write this blog: Often the chromatic scale is described as 12-equal temperament. This explains how it is done, but not why. (However I will not come to the circle of fifths too soon, as I need to describe some other things first.)
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
February 11 2013 23:08 GMT
#10
sure let me find it...ah here it is:

We have the note A4 and want to know the most harmonic pitch above A4. We calculate 440 Hertz * 1.5 = 660 Hertz. Now we want to calculate the most harmonic pitch below A4. We calculate 440 Hertz / 1.5 = 293.333... Hertz

Both new notes (660 Hz or 293.333 Hz) have a strong relation to 440 Hz as both are just a fifth away.

This line is what's problematic to me. 440Hz to 660Hz is A to E in 12-tet, but 440Hz to 293.333Hz is A to D (which is what you describe). So while they are each a perfect fifth away this seemed problematic in that it might cause confusion that, if we're in a scale where A is the tonic, D 293.333 is scale degree 4 and not 5, while E 660 is SD5. In this instance, the D contextually has a weaker relationship than the E would to the A (predominant vs dominant functions). Same would be the case if D was the tonic, as the E would be SD2 and A would be SD5.

Actually... other thing that adds to this, and is after looking probably the more important issue, is that you use the phrase 'most harmonic' pitch, which is by its very nature a contextual question. If we follow the example above, in A-Major, E is definitely more important than D, and the same with A in D-Major. So without context whats inferred is a relationship that doesn't exist in western music for a very long time (till about Debussy). I guess changing the first sentence is more important, the second is fine, if its not led the way the previous sentence seems to do.

Does that help clarify for you?
Administrator
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-12 13:03:25
February 12 2013 11:34 GMT
#11
On February 12 2013 08:08 wo1fwood wrote:
sure let me find it...ah here it is:

Show nested quote +
We have the note A4 and want to know the most harmonic pitch above A4. We calculate 440 Hertz * 1.5 = 660 Hertz. Now we want to calculate the most harmonic pitch below A4. We calculate 440 Hertz / 1.5 = 293.333... Hertz

Both new notes (660 Hz or 293.333 Hz) have a strong relation to 440 Hz as both are just a fifth away.

This line is what's problematic to me. 440Hz to 660Hz is A to E in 12-tet, but 440Hz to 293.333Hz is A to D (which is what you describe). So while they are each a perfect fifth away this seemed problematic in that it might cause confusion that, if we're in a scale where A is the tonic, D 293.333 is scale degree 4 and not 5, while E 660 is SD5. In this instance, the D contextually has a weaker relationship than the E would to the A (predominant vs dominant functions). Same would be the case if D was the tonic, as the E would be SD2 and A would be SD5.

Actually... other thing that adds to this, and is after looking probably the more important issue, is that you use the phrase 'most harmonic' pitch, which is by its very nature a contextual question. If we follow the example above, in A-Major, E is definitely more important than D, and the same with A in D-Major. So without context whats inferred is a relationship that doesn't exist in western music for a very long time (till about Debussy). I guess changing the first sentence is more important, the second is fine, if its not led the way the previous sentence seems to do.

Does that help clarify for you?

I calculated harmonic pitches from A4 as a note, not within the context of an A tonic. The concept of a dominant requires the concept of a tonic. I plan to introduce the tonic in the third part of the blog. It is much harder than I expected to continue the series after the minor scale (the second part of the blog), because many concepts relate to other concepts which relate back to the ones I try to explain. (As a tone has an overtone spectrum which includes a major triad, the tone has a weak tendency to create a tonic center around itself with no further chords played. Also the fifth has its overtone spectrum and therefore its own major triad, creating a dominant effect. But I plan to explain the dominant in greater detail later, in this blog I focus to make sure that the importance of the fifth as an interval is understood. To prepare a later blog part, I smuggle in the word 'dominant' earlier, without explaining the concept in the musical context. In this blog, I mention the word tonic at the end, but do not yet explain its full meaning.)

(In 12-tet, E5 and D4 have different pitches, because so far I used just intonation frequencies in the blog. E5 would be 659.2551 Hz, D3 293.6648 Hz.)

Even if you have smaller things to nitpick, I am glad for any criticism. While I try to follow a certain approach, I maybe phrased things plainly wrong even if they are just small details, or phrased them oddly so that it creates confusion.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-12 14:04:23
February 12 2013 14:02 GMT
#12
oh haha, I was looking at my just intonation section and not 12-tet...jeez Yea you are correct on that, D4 would be 293.332 and E5 would be 660 in JI.

Edit: curious, but do you know about tonalsoft?
Administrator
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-12 15:41:48
February 12 2013 15:30 GMT
#13
I don't know this software, but now had a glance over the website.

They mention 5-limit tuning. I do not plan for example to explain 3-, 5- or 7-limit tuning calculations because I don't think they get to the core of the scale. I try to portray our western scale as being both a stack of fifths interval as well as of triads, as well being capable of reproducing any nature interval from 1:2 to 5:6.

While the thirds, sixths and minor seconds are quite out of tune in 12-tet, just intonation is not very practical for modulation. Sadly, JI cannot provide six pure scale degree chords, one can only use five of them with just intervals (in major, degree ii is out of tune.)

However I use just tuning to explain the meaning of intervals.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
February 12 2013 15:52 GMT
#14
On February 13 2013 00:30 [F_]aths wrote:
I don't know this software, but now had a glance over the website.

They mention 5-limit tuning. I do not plan for example to explain 3-, 5- or 7-limit tuning calculations because I don't think they get to the core of the scale. I try to portray our western scale as being both a stack of fifths interval as well as of triads, as well being capable of reproducing any nature interval from 1:2 to 5:6.

While the thirds, sixths and minor seconds are quite out of tune in 12-tet, just intonation is not very practical for modulation. Sadly, JI cannot provide six pure scale degree chords, one can only use five of them with just intervals (in major, degree ii is out of tune.)

However I use just tuning to explain the meaning of intervals.

I figured it would be of interest to you, but yea this stuff is some of the most advanced topics on microtonality, so %99.99999999 of people including many musicians will never likely have a need to know stuff at this level of specificity. I would not recommend anyone just learning to delve into this information as it is incredibly complex.
Administrator
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-12 16:34:36
February 12 2013 16:24 GMT
#15
I once read "Dreizehn Stufen in der Duodezime" (German, meaning 13 steps for a twelfth interval) which also uses some geometric images to explain intervals and triads. The author, Heinz Bohlen, provided very interesting interpretations of triads, but I don't think he got the core of the minor triad (I read the paper mostly because I was interested in interpretations of minor triads.)

Since the minor triad is harmonic, the explanation of its harmonic nature must be simple.

My criticism of the complex explanations on "tonalsoft" is that they distinguish between small tuning differences which don't matter in practical use. While I on the one hand would criticize 12-ET for not distinguish between diatonic and chromatic semi-tones, because these different steps give the note a different meaning, I am still a fan of 12-ET. It has some advantages over 19-ET and even more over 12-JI.

In my imagination, when I play a piece, it does make a difference if I play G♯ or A♭, even though both notes are on the same key and therefore having the same pitch. I am still not fully sure how I can explain the difference of a scale and its intonation, or how G♯ and A♭ are different even though they share the same pitch.

Johann Sebastian Bach used an (almost) equal temperament for many of his important works, because the freedom to modulate to any tonic is more useful than pure triads. As I am German, too, I am of course used to the German notation which is different to the English one. I am still not sure if I should write a blog entry about German notes.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-13 00:33:57
February 13 2013 00:33 GMT
#16
On February 11 2013 10:35 Solarsail wrote:
If you follow all these rules, don't you just end up with something that someone's done before? Alternately, can you not make up something that sounds good without having read any of this?

You cannot. When you follow the harmonic rules by the book, you of course get a very common sound which shows little creativity. But you cannot use arbitrary intervals and create something which sounds good.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
XDJuicebox
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States593 Posts
February 13 2013 01:46 GMT
#17
On February 13 2013 09:33 [F_]aths wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2013 10:35 Solarsail wrote:
If you follow all these rules, don't you just end up with something that someone's done before? Alternately, can you not make up something that sounds good without having read any of this?

You cannot. When you follow the harmonic rules by the book, you of course get a very common sound which shows little creativity. But you cannot use arbitrary intervals and create something which sounds good.


I feel like a good understanding of the basics, and maybe some advanced materials, along with a good breaking of the rules can result in good music.
And then you know what happened all of a sudden?
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-13 12:31:24
February 13 2013 12:29 GMT
#18
On February 13 2013 10:46 XDJuicebox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2013 09:33 [F_]aths wrote:
On February 11 2013 10:35 Solarsail wrote:
If you follow all these rules, don't you just end up with something that someone's done before? Alternately, can you not make up something that sounds good without having read any of this?

You cannot. When you follow the harmonic rules by the book, you of course get a very common sound which shows little creativity. But you cannot use arbitrary intervals and create something which sounds good.


I feel like a good understanding of the basics, and maybe some advanced materials, along with a good breaking of the rules can result in good music.

You need to expand the rules. Let me give you some examples.

Johann Sebastian Bach proposed a tuning which is quite similar to today's equal temperament. So he "broke" the rule that you cannot play in some keys if you want to have a good sound by expanded it that you can play any key and modulate from any key to any key.

Ludwig van Beethoven "broke" the rule to use almost only the notes which are in the scale and expanded it to use more chromatic notes, expanding the range of harmony.

Richard Wager "broke" the rule that a tetrad is a triad with an optional note and expanded the tetrad to be a chord without a defined root.

Arnold Schönberg "broke" the rule that a melody must have a tonic and expanded harmony to the concept of atonality.

These guys weren't the only one involved in the respective developments, but still played an important role. Every one had a very good understanding of what they are doing because they knew why the established rules were in place. One cannot just break some rules in music and expect to get a good or at least interesting piece.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 26m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
trigger 95
Crank 40
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 10141
Hyuk 747
Leta 299
Killer 182
TY 116
PianO 69
Soma 59
HiyA 42
Rush 24
NotJumperer 18
[ Show more ]
ivOry 3
Dota 2
XaKoH 726
XcaliburYe517
League of Legends
JimRising 660
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1882
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor262
Other Games
WinterStarcraft722
Happy253
crisheroes111
Pyrionflax80
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH327
• Adnapsc2 13
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2273
League of Legends
• Lourlo1250
• Stunt474
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
1h 26m
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
3h 26m
WardiTV European League
3h 26m
BSL: ProLeague
9h 26m
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
1d 15h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.