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Next generation RTS - a concept

Blogs > Big J
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Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 10:02:03
February 07 2013 23:19 GMT
#1
Hey, so I got this idea about a next generation RTS game and I just thought I would get it out of my head and put it out here to see whether people like it or not. As this is a very complex a long matter, no matter how much I post, I will not be able to describe the game in it's fullest. So, basically this should just give an idea about the game and some thoughts on it.
I picture most of it in a f2p version.


Races, Units and Setting

Though my original idea was a little different, I settled on the idea of a "Humans vs Alien" outer space two race scenario. Basically, the humans are the classical Starcraft, StarshipTroopers, Starwars-esque mixture of Infantry/Tank/Aircraft based race. The alien race on the other hand is a mixture between Ants, Zerg, Bacteria and very powerful mythological creatures.
The lose conditions are "lose all buildings" for Humans and "lose all queens" for the Aliens.

Two races? Yes, but don't worry. The game principle is more adaptable than "just choosing races and playing the same 3MUs over and over again" and actually allows for a magnitude of matchups and leaves a lot of room for player creativity.
And here is how it goes:
Both races have a small set of basic units (amongst the number 5 - including workers) which they will field in every battle and therefore will be available in any game. However, before the game you can choose a few units from all units of your race which you will be able to build as well. After those have been chosen, you get to see your opponents choices and you are allowed to choose one additional unit depending on what your opponent has chosen. This should bring you up to a standard number of units - the amount you can field in any game.

Explanation: The idea behind this is to
  • allow the game to have a bigger number of variety - instead of a certain amount of matchups you get many possible scenarios
  • allow the player to give his army a personal touch and develope trademark playstyles
  • let the player adapt to a map
  • keep the game simple in terms of basic racial interaction, making it much easier to balance/improve/design than a 3+ race game (there is never this other race that you have to take into account)
  • allow the game to have more units
  • make it really easy to add content - which can be vital in a f2p future



The Damage System

The core idea behind the damage system is that there are two types of health in the game. One that is regarded to as health or hit points(HP), the other one that is being called armor.
Naturally, when a units HP sink to 0 it is destroyed. However, a unit does not take damage for as long as it has armor. Armor is basically a second layer of hit points - but one that gets affected by attacks differently.
F.e: a unit might to 10damage vs hit points, yet only do 5damage vs armor (so 10/5) or the other way around (5/10).
Note, not every unit in the game has armor!

Explanation: I believe that this system allows for a lot of interesting dynamics in the game if properly implemented. Comparing it to the established systems of different armor/damage tags, I believe this system is easier to understand (visually you just get two health bars like with Protoss shields) while still providing a lot of possibilities, just by adjusting health/armor ratios and damage boni to make unit interaction very complex.
Even more, there might be very neat unit interactions possible. E.g: A unit with 5/10 damage would be used best by switching target to attack units that still have armor, while a second 10/5 unit should try to focus down the troops with no armor remaining.


The Resource System and Expanding

Similarily to Starcraft, there are two main resources with a similar "base" setup as in Starcraft - in this case they are biological materials and ore. However, they don't work quite the same as minerals/gas do in terms of mining.
Biological materials are gathered from plants, which multiple workers can mine from. However, by choosing to use multiple workers at once, the plant cannot reproduce resources as fast, making it shrink and mining from it becomes less efficient until it has had time to regenerate. Shrinking can go to the point where the plant does not provide resources at all anymore!
Ore is gathered automatically by building Ore Pits if you are human. As an Alien player, you have to dedicate a unit - which is your first combat unit as well - to mine it.
Additionally to those two resources, bases provide command points (I really need a fancy name for them). Certain tech buildings can exclusively be build there, which forces players to control bigger areas to unlock additional tech.

Explanation: The "plant" system is my way of trying to encourage expand play and worker spread, while encouraging steady macroing of workers (they still add something, just not as much) and allowing early game rushes which cannot afford expansions, yet need more than 1-2workers per resource.
The "mining combat unit" is an interesting way to provide defense while investing into tech and encourages building combat units early on.
The command points are a core idea of the game, which makes holding certain areas in the game interesting. It should be noted, that they work slightly different for the Aliens.
Whether or not there should/neeeds to be a supply system or a supply cap, I'm not sure.



The Humans





Supply Center:

+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

This might be the most important building of the human faction.
Easily deployed it gives access to most upgrades in the game. However, upgrading is not as easy as in other games. New units actually have to run to a supply center to replace their equipment.
Additionally, the supply center can be upgraded with
  • an Ammunition Depot which allows ammuntition based units to reload their weapons there
  • a First Aid Room which heals nearby units for as long as no enemies are close
  • a Guardian Tower which detects enemies even if they are far away

Explanation: This building provides many concepts that I would like to have in the game.
  • It allows for a more complex upgrade system, which introduces a certain amount of defenders advantage as the defending player will always have one nearby, while the attacker might not.
  • By giving it many upgrades for different kinds of units there is a lot of variation possible, how many of those supply centers you want to get, which leads to many different strategies. Also, thinking about buildings in other games (e.g. citadel, twilight council), there are less "inactive, because everything is already done" things around when there is always something left.
  • You can upgrade that building and use it as a strong, proxy heal and upgrade outpost in a contain strategy or similarily to shorten the path your ammunition based units have to go. However, you better protect it well once you invested into its extras!



Seraphim

+ Show Spoiler +
The Seraphim is a fast, low HP soldier which is equipped with a Pistol and a Knife, allowing it to take on most early game ground units in a melee combat, yet is rather inefficient from afar.
It carries one small detector which can be placed to keep vision upon a certain area.
By upgrading Jetpacks, Seraphims become capable of flying for a limited amount of time and Personal Cloaking makes them invisible.



Guardian Trooper

+ Show Spoiler +
The Guardian Trooper is the basic Infantry unit of mankind. Equipped with a rifle it does good damage vs HP, but is ineffective when trying to penetrate armor.
The Guardian Trooper can attack air units as well as ground units. A significant improvement is the Double Trigger Modification which allows the Guardian Trooper to attack much faster. However, as the double trigger is very hard to handle, the outcome is that the Guardian Trooper misses a lot of shots on the target and his damage output against a single target stays the same, while targets around the main target will take some hits.



Lightbringer Trooper

+ Show Spoiler +
The Lightbringer Trooper is an Infantry Unit which carries a rocket launcher. The rockets are mainly strong vs armor, but provide resonable splash firepower vs HP as well.
However, the rockets cannot follow a target and therefore the Lightbringer Trooper proves to be inefficient vs fast moving targets. Still, Lightbringers are capable of fireing at air targets - whether trying to hit one is a clever idea or not.



Redeemer

+ Show Spoiler +
Redeemer are costly high tech Infantry troops with personal teleporters allowing them to materialize in any visible space on the map. However, the further they teleport, they longer it takes them to materialize back, making them vulnurable for quite a long time.
As they cannot teleport with heavy equippment, they use their teleporter as weapon, channeling its powers onto a target to demateralize it from medium range. This does not kill the target, but makes it impossible for it to perform any actions.
The Redeemer is not restricted to attacking ground units with this.
Explanation: The Redeemer resembles the CnC:RA2 Chrono-Legionaire. It's main task is to deal with stronger opponents in combat and to catch and intercept fast units. It cannot attack buildings, however it can be a useful tool when hunting down queens.



Combat Cycle

+ Show Spoiler +
The Combat Cycle is a cheap unit, capable of reaching a very high speed by accelerating over a few seconds. It is equipped with a laser that takes it's energy not only from the energy cells of the cycle, but also from a generator in the cycles wheels. Therefore, the laser reaches its highest power for as long as the cycle is going at full speed.
Still, the laser proves to be rather inefficient against armor and the cycle itself doesn't provied much protection either.



Warlord Tank

+ Show Spoiler +
The Warlord Tank is amongst the most terrifying battle machines humans have ever built. Heavily armored it cannot move fast.
It's main task is to siege opponents positions and destroy their most expensive forces from long range. Thereby It can extend its range and firepower immensly. However to do so, the Warlord has to become immobile. Additionally, the Warlord can be upgraded with Deployable Barricades which he drops around it to work as a deterance against melee troops and which eat up damage from unguided missiles.
Explanation: OK, so this is my interpretation of the Starcraft Siege Tank. Slower, harder to deploy, with more firepower and slightly more range. The barricades give it some extra "siege character".
Some things to note:
  • In my mind this tank does not fire upon sight but needs like 0.5-1seconds before an actual shot occurs. This allows units to move a little more freely in and out of range allowing for a little more micro against it. (imagine perfect drop micro or more simply just turning around when you barely spotted them without taking damage.)
  • This unit should have "overkill" - meaning more tanks will fire at the same target than needed to kill it, if the Warlords are not spread out well.




The Jupiter Fighter

+ Show Spoiler +
The Jupiter Fighter is one of mankinds most advanced and universal aircrafts. Flying at high speed and using very adaptable weaponry has its drawbacks, however. It has hardly any armor and low hitpoints and is only capable of carrying two of its deadly Juno-Warheads, a third one when upgraded with Advanced Capacity.
Generally, the Jupiter Fighter uses laserbased guidance systems to hit its target from medium range. However, a pilot can turn those off to achieve manual control over the Juno-Warheads, which allows him to do a straight shot trying to hit ground targets beyond reach of the systems. Furthermore, it also allows him to use the warheads as bombs and use the extra fuel for a bigger blasting power. Warheads used this way which fail to hit a target don't explode and burrow into the ground instead.

Explanation: The Jupiter Fighter is a unit made for 2 and a half roles.
  • First and foremost, the Jupiter Fighter is a very fast and active unit which can release a lot of damage at a single spot. Manual usage of its weapon systems allows the active and skilled player to attack an opponent with less risk for the Jupiter or to attack targets that are out of reach for other units. It is thereby a harass as well as a siegebreaking unit.
  • Furthermore, they Juno Warheads provide reasonable antiair damage, especially when dealing with bigger amounts of enemies.
  • In case any other usage is shut down by heavy turteling, an active player should be encourage to use the Juno-Warheads to create minefields.

However, the Jupiter does need to return to a Supply Center very often and can be easily destroyed when getting caught by Antiair. Its direct combat value is therefore limited.



Venus Transport

+ Show Spoiler +
The Venus Transport is a fast transport helicopter. Decently armored, it can transport medium amounts of troops behind enemy lines.
It's greatest strength is being capable of flying near the ground and under enemy spotting. Not to mention that getting in and out of the Venus becomes much easier for any transported troops when in such a mode.
Explanation: Have you ever been annoyed by dropship micro? Well, then you gotta be annoyed if this happens to you with an invisible dropship. However, this has the downside of the dropship becoming capable of being targeted by ground weapons.





The Aliens





The Nest

+ Show Spoiler +
The Nest is the main building of the Alien race which is capable of producing nearly any Alien Unit. However, a queen needs to be present to do so.
Even more, every Nest needs to build chambers to allow a queen within to hatch the more complex units of the Alien race. Special birth chambers allow a queen to produce two or more units at a time.
A Nest is also the drop-off point for resources and therefore needed for expanding.
Explanation: The Nest is somewhat similar to the Zerg hatchery. However, unlike the Zerg the Alien race produces by production queues and not by larva. Also, just having a Nest is not enough
to produce units. Without a queen the Nest is only a drop-off point for resources and without extra chambers it is only capable of producing workers - one at a time.
The intention behind this lies within complexity. Alien players are forced to build as few chambers as possible at each Nest as they are expensive. Therefore, different Nests will end up with
different production. Last, by requiring a queen for production, expanding and adding production become decoupled to a certain degree. This allows for more control over what you aim for strategically,
as Alien players don't always have to buy the full package at once.
Costwise, the intention is to make Nests cheap and Queens expensive - so to allow for cheap expanding, while extra production has to be acquired with cheaper birth chambers instead.
Last it is important to note that there is only a limited amount of chambers any Nest can hold. Therefore, past some point in time, extra queens will be required.



The Queen

+ Show Spoiler +
Queens are the brains and mothers of all Aliens. Uncapable of combating themselves, their main task is to hatch other Aliens to do so. Usually, Queens hide deep inside their Nests.
Without a Queen, the Aliens cannot survive.



Crunchers

+ Show Spoiler +
Crunchers are medium sized bugs, which use their antlers to harvest ore and to attack enemies alike. In their carapace they are capable of transporting few amounts of tiny units, even while
moving underground.
Crunchers have been seen dropping off their transporting back parts and even regrowing them. It seems like, even those dead immobile parts are capable of keeping small organisms inside them.
Explanation: The Cruncher features a trademark Alien attribute - multihealth. It is a unit made of two parts with different amounts of health which can be killed of seperatly.
The main body part - head, antlers and the lower part of the body - is the actual bug which has to be killed of. The Transporting carapace at his back is expandable and can be regrown for a small
amount of resources as well as arbitrarily dropped of to create little hide-outs around the map.


*****
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-07 23:55:31
February 07 2013 23:53 GMT
#2
i think how units interact with each other by numbers is possibly the single most boring thing possible in rts, units should interact with each other by asymmetrical micro. so my gut reaction to your hp/armor thing is just "ugh why" because that ends up as two people just pulling ranged units back as they lose armor. melee vs ranged is much more interesting, or spells that allow you to get an advantage through better positioning. i'm kind of confused how your scout with knife/pistol works. do you switch their modes with a hotkey or do you just have to get them within a certain range and they'll automatically switch which attack they use?

i'm also not sold on drafting units. it changes what units are available during what tech path, makes standard build orders almost impossible (which decreases level of play), and it's also really hard to make sure each unit is balanced in relation to other units. also i don't think that it's really possible to create units that are distinct enough yet balanced at the same time for people to not always choose one. for instance, if the broodlord or colossus was up for drafting between T, Z, and P, everyone would always choose them because they're really good.

also drafting your tech units is pretty much the same thing as revealing build orders at the start of the game. you know what your opponent is going to do, he knows what you're going to do. that sounds sort of boring to me. if you draft a reaver in PvT for example, your opponent knows that you're going proxy robo or 1gate robo harass. if you aren't you just wasted a valuable tech unit when you could have picked something that goes well with your lategame army.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-08 00:35:51
February 08 2013 00:27 GMT
#3
On February 08 2013 08:53 rauk wrote:
i think how units interact with each other by numbers is possibly the single most boring thing possible in rts, units should interact with each other by asymmetrical micro. so my gut reaction to your hp/armor thing is just "ugh why" because that ends up as two people just pulling ranged units back as they lose armor. melee vs ranged is much more interesting, or spells that allow you to get an advantage through better positioning. i'm kind of confused how your scout with knife/pistol works. do you switch their modes with a hotkey or do you just have to get them within a certain range and they'll automatically switch which attack they use?


Ah, should maybe be more clear about that. The damage section is PURELY how damage works. Not how units work. There is surely meant to be micro in there, aquired by things like moving shot, range/speed differences, abilities etc. There is surely meant to be melee in the game - just the human faction does not have too many of them.
E.g the Combat Cycle with its high speed an ranged attack would be best used by nonstop driving around slower/lower range units.

I think if you read the whole unit section (of Human up to now) it gets clearer that stuff like that is not just meant to be in the game but the most core component in battles.
The damage section is exclusively meant for "who does how much against what".

For the scout. Right now I think it would be a basic "hold fire" option on the pistol. The pistol is meant to be able to kite units early on. Though the scout might be able to kill an opponent in melee, he cannot kill armies melee. But he can kite them with the pistol a little. This is mostly interesting as the first Alien combat unit is a melee combat bug which actually beats the Scout in a melee fight.


On February 08 2013 08:53 rauk wrote:
i'm also not sold on drafting units. it changes what units are available during what tech path, makes standard build orders almost impossible (which decreases level of play), and it's also really hard to make sure each unit is balanced in relation to other units. also i don't think that it's really possible to create units that are distinct enough yet balanced at the same time for people to not always choose one. for instance, if the broodlord or colossus was up for drafting between T, Z, and P, everyone
would always choose them because they're really good.


I think you missunderstand the concept. It's not a draft between races. You can only choose units of your own race.
So when you play Human vs Aliens, you get like 5 basic units (which should be balanced to allow for a standard opening with only playing them) and 3 Human units +1 human unit that you choose after you have seen the opponents first choices.
You would not be able to choose a colossus with Terran, but two Protoss players would both be able to choose the colossus. Of course there would be units that you would usually always want to choose. But then again, metagames shift.

Standard BOs are standard because they don't depend on the opponents units too much.
E.g. a 1rax expand is viable because you get enough defense to defend anything, if you follow it up properly and scout properly. It absolutly doesn't matter whether your opponent plays reavers, broodlords, roaches or Banshees.

On February 08 2013 08:53 rauk wrote:
also drafting your tech units is pretty much the same thing as revealing build orders at the start of the game. you know what your opponent is going to do, he knows what you're going to do. that sounds sort of boring to me. if you draft a reaver in PvT for example, your opponent knows that you're going proxy robo or 1gate robo harass. if you aren't you just wasted a valuable tech unit when you could have picked something that goes well with your lategame army.


Yeah, this might happen, but that doesn't make it bad. However when all is chosen, you have something along the lines of 10units you could build. Seeing a Reaver in there doesn't mean there must be fast Reaver play incoming. E.g the Protoss lineup could look like:
Probe, Zealot, Dragoon, Observer, Shuttle, Scout (but a useful version of the scout )
Reaver, Arbiter, Templar - first choices
DT as wild card

So, are you absolutly sure now that proxy robo or 1gate robo harass is coming? Couldn't he just try 2base carrier? I believe with 9-12 units after the choices there should easily be enough to even metagame an opponent a fake him out with choices that you won't even use.
porkRaven
Profile Joined December 2010
United States953 Posts
February 08 2013 02:18 GMT
#4
Do you plan on creating this game?
SHOUTOUTS TO Aylear!!!
GhostOwl
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
766 Posts
February 08 2013 03:13 GMT
#5
As long as this game's humans dont get unfair advantages over alien races and hidden OP cost efficiency like some other games. I'm cool with this idea

User was temp banned for this post.
Epishade
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States2267 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-08 03:22:34
February 08 2013 03:20 GMT
#6
On February 08 2013 12:13 GhostOwl wrote:
As long as this game's humans dont get unfair advantages over alien races and hidden OP cost efficiency like some other games. I'm cool with this idea

LOL

Edit:
On February 08 2013 11:18 SwatRaven wrote:
Do you plan on creating this game?

^Also this. Is this just an idea or do you have the knowledge and skills necessary to make a game like this (which sounds extremely difficult to me)?
Pinhead Larry in the streets, Dirty Dan in the sheets.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 08 2013 14:10 GMT
#7
I'd love to do it, but sadly I'm in no position to do so. Though I tried to do some stuff with the SC2 galaxy editor, I'm absolutly clueless how to approach it.
In the end, this is just a Fantasy RTS that has been on my mind for months now.
SupplyBlockedTV
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Belgium313 Posts
February 08 2013 17:22 GMT
#8
http://www.uleduneering.com/kappnotes/index.php/2010/09/examples-and-samples-of-game-design/

Make a game design document, sent it to 100000 different game compagnies, hope you are good enough, get hired as game designer. GG.

:D
PEW PEW PEW
Bommes
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1226 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-08 17:47:55
February 08 2013 17:32 GMT
#9
First of all, cool read and thanks for sharing, I like all the concepts and I hope you can bring this project to life and actually make a game out of it (or an SC2 map)!

On February 08 2013 08:19 Big J wrote:

Two races? Yes, but don't worry. The game principle is more adaptable than "just choosing races and playing the same 3MUs over and over again" and actually allows for a magnitude of matchups and leaves a lot of room for player creativity.
And here is how it goes:
Both races have a small set of basic units (amongst the number 5 - including workers) which they will field in every battle and therefore will be available in any game. However, before the game you can choose a few units from all units of your race which you will be able to build as well. After those have been chosen, you get to see your opponents choices and you are allowed to choose one additional unit depending on what your opponent has chosen. This should bring you up to a standard number of units - the amount you can field in any game.

Explanation: The idea behind this is to
[list]
[*]allow the game to have a bigger number of variety - instead of a certain amount of matchups you get many possible scenarios
[*]allow the player to give his army a personal touch and develope trademark playstyles
[...]


I'm not completely convinced by that part. Your balancing has to be perfect and you have to make specific efforts to design map characteristics that are important enough to stimulate usage of a certain unit type, but at the same don't make that unit ridiculously overpowered in a way that you wouldn't build anything else than that unit or makes it overpowered in a way that everyone just rushes to this unit because it is too good from a strategical standpoint. Otherwise everyone will just use the same 5 units, regardless of the map. I also think 5 units might not be enough for strategical depth and to make games interesting, because there are very little options your opponent has to prepare for when he sees your unit mixture, it is too straight forward for a strategy game.

I think balancing the game in that design context is really, really hard for an RTS. But I think the idea is good and very logical in todays game design context (with many F2P titles coming up and microtransaction models, also gamers who don't spend a lot of time to learn a game but want to get hooked in the first 30 minutes). I'm not 100% convinced that it is a good model for competitive play and depth.

Have you played Airmech? It is not a classic RTS, but it is still very similar to your idea in my opinion. Also, it is a LOT of fun :D

Edit:

I'd love to do it, but sadly I'm in no position to do so. Though I tried to do some stuff with the SC2 galaxy editor, I'm absolutly clueless how to approach it.
In the end, this is just a Fantasy RTS that has been on my mind for months now.


It is not that hard if you really want to do it and are willing to spend effort in your free time into a project. Join us on SC2Mapster and ask your questions there or come into the Freenode IRC #sc2mapster to always find a handful of people to help. There are even a couple Blizzard SC2 developers showing up regularly (not that often since HotS crunch time started, but they still show up from time to time) that answer some higher level questions or just interact with the mapping community.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 08 2013 21:49 GMT
#10
On February 09 2013 02:32 Bommes wrote:
First of all, cool read and thanks for sharing, I like all the concepts and I hope you can bring this project to life and actually make a game out of it (or an SC2 map)!

Show nested quote +
On February 08 2013 08:19 Big J wrote:

Two races? Yes, but don't worry. The game principle is more adaptable than "just choosing races and playing the same 3MUs over and over again" and actually allows for a magnitude of matchups and leaves a lot of room for player creativity.
And here is how it goes:
Both races have a small set of basic units (amongst the number 5 - including workers) which they will field in every battle and therefore will be available in any game. However, before the game you can choose a few units from all units of your race which you will be able to build as well. After those have been chosen, you get to see your opponents choices and you are allowed to choose one additional unit depending on what your opponent has chosen. This should bring you up to a standard number of units - the amount you can field in any game.

Explanation: The idea behind this is to
[list]
[*]allow the game to have a bigger number of variety - instead of a certain amount of matchups you get many possible scenarios
[*]allow the player to give his army a personal touch and develope trademark playstyles
[...]


I'm not completely convinced by that part. Your balancing has to be perfect and you have to make specific efforts to design map characteristics that are important enough to stimulate usage of a certain unit type, but at the same don't make that unit ridiculously overpowered in a way that you wouldn't build anything else than that unit or makes it overpowered in a way that everyone just rushes to this unit because it is too good from a strategical standpoint. Otherwise everyone will just use the same 5 units, regardless of the map. I also think 5 units might not be enough for strategical depth and to make games interesting, because there are very little options your opponent has to prepare for when he sees your unit mixture, it is too straight forward for a strategy game.

I think balancing the game in that design context is really, really hard for an RTS. But I think the idea is good and very logical in todays game design context (with many F2P titles coming up and microtransaction models, also gamers who don't spend a lot of time to learn a game but want to get hooked in the first 30 minutes). I'm not 100% convinced that it is a good model for competitive play and depth.

Have you played Airmech? It is not a classic RTS, but it is still very similar to your idea in my opinion. Also, it is a LOT of fun :D

Edit:
Show nested quote +

I'd love to do it, but sadly I'm in no position to do so. Though I tried to do some stuff with the SC2 galaxy editor, I'm absolutly clueless how to approach it.
In the end, this is just a Fantasy RTS that has been on my mind for months now.


It is not that hard if you really want to do it and are willing to spend effort in your free time into a project. Join us on SC2Mapster and ask your questions there or come into the Freenode IRC #sc2mapster to always find a handful of people to help. There are even a couple Blizzard SC2 developers showing up regularly (not that often since HotS crunch time started, but they still show up from time to time) that answer some higher level questions or just interact with the mapping community.


Ty for the feedback. I have never made it past the "Create your own fireball tutorial". There is so much specific stuff in there, that I absolutly have no clue where I would begin learning that.

I have never played Airmech, not even heard about it.

About the army choices, I'd like to show you what I have in mind with a TvZ SC2 scenario:
+ Show Spoiler +
The basic units of the races would be:
SCV, Marine, Siege Tank, Viking, Raven
Drone, Zergling, Queen, Overlord/Overseer, Infestor

I believe this is balanced to a certain degree or at least could be balanced if need be rather easily. (this basic vs basic unit scenario). So if it came down to only playing with those units, the game could easily be balanced. But even more, those units are "universal" to a certain degree, meaning that the Terran would have a decent chance no matter if the Zerg chose all out air units, or banelings or ultralisks.
Surely, if the Terran goes with BC, Thor, Ghost from here on out and the Zerg choses roach, baneling, mutalisk the Zerg players chances in the lategame will probably lower. But similarily, he has a good amount of tools to win in the early game.
Even more, the wildcard would give him the choice to abuse the lack of marauder+medivac with ultralisks in the later stages, while the Terran might want to have some extra boardcontrol with hellions early on.
In the end, both races still have most of their units available!

But additionally to the choices above, there could be lurkers, scourge and defilers in the zerg toolkit, while Terran could choose to field medics, firebats or science vessels. - neither of those units will really just win the game for the Z/T, but it offers options and variety, without the game becoming a coinflip battle in which you guess what your opponent is going to do when his barracks is capable of producing 6 or more different units -many of which that come at similar timings and cost, yet work differently.

As it stands, I believe that 3race models are much harder to balance and design well then what I have in mind. E.g think about the bio/mech diversity of Terran in SC2 and BW - there is/was none! But neither mech in BW nor Bio(mech) in SC2 can be easily buffed to work vs Protoss, as it could/would ruin the TvZ matchup. Not even the expansion HotS has managed that properly up to now...
Bommes
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1226 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-09 02:06:06
February 09 2013 02:05 GMT
#11
On February 09 2013 06:49 Big J wrote:
Ty for the feedback. I have never made it past the "Create your own fireball tutorial". There is so much specific stuff in there, that I absolutly have no clue where I would begin learning that.


That tutorial is not really a beginner tutorial though, while an ability like a fireball itself is a pretty common thing for many games, the problem is that there is no built in ability that behaves like that in SC2, so you have to completely build it from scratch in the editor, which requires a lot of different effect types that interact with each other. It's really more of an intermediate thing than something for a complete newbie, so I see why you were frustrated.

Are you talking about the tutorial from OneTwoSC or the one from Kueken?

Either way, Blizzard published a really good tutorial to get started with the data editor. Check it out if you are interested!
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/maps-and-mods/tutorials/data/

On February 09 2013 06:49 Big J wrote:
I have never played Airmech, not even heard about it.


Play it! It is free to play and really amazing.



This video shows some (newer) gameplay footage in the background.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 11 2013 10:42 GMT
#12
So, I have spent some time with the editor again and I managed to create some of the units from above.
Though, I have to overwork it again, I got to say the Jupiter Fighter feels extremly fun playing just flying around and hitting targets

Ty Bommels for the input. And yeah, I was talking about the Fireball from Kueken.
Gotta update the unit list at some point. Aliens are still completly lacking...
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-15 10:10:11
February 14 2013 15:26 GMT
#13
OK, so a quick update on a few things:
I have settled on a nametheme that units for the Human race will follow:

  • Infantry units will be of a "celestial/saint" nameset: Therefore some changes occur:
    The Trooper is now the Guardian Trooper
    The Legionaire is now the Lightbringer Trooper
    The Scout is now the Seraphim
    The Redeemer stays the Redeemer
  • Vehicles will (as before) be have some sort of "War", "Combat", "Battle"... in their name.
  • Air Units will (as before) be named after Roman Gods/Godesses (or if you prefer, stellar objects - which is the same)


As far as my playing with the SC2 editor goes, I have created some units up to now:
  • Guardian Trooper (fairly easy done; kind of marinelike unit right now)
  • Lightbringer Trooper (I really love the concept! A rocket trooper that can miss his target)
  • Warlord Tank (well, just a redesign of the siege tank with a 1charge "errect sandsacks" ability)
  • Jupiter Fighter (I have no clue why it works as intended - but it feels like an amazingly fun, high skillcap unit right now - actually, like most of the units )
  • Supply Center (right now, it can only recharge the warlord and the jupiter)
  • Venus Transport (see below)


Next I want to try to create a Transporter (also added to the OP):



Venus Transport

+ Show Spoiler +
The Venus Transport is a fast transport helicopter. Decently armored, it can transport medium amounts of troops behind enemy lines.
It's greatest strength is being capable of flying faster near the ground and under enemy spotting.
Explanation: Have you ever been annoyed by dropship micro? Well, then you gotta be annoyed if this happens to you with an invisible dropship. However, this has the downside of the dropship becoming capable of being targeted by ground weapons.

Edit: Finished a first version of the Venus Transport.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-15 14:04:29
February 15 2013 14:02 GMT
#14
I think it's very admirable to actually create the units that you have concepts for. I know it's in the context of your own imagined game, but it's something that's really lacking in a lot of discussions on TL. Nobody ever bothers to demonstrate their ideas (I'm guilty of that myself as well), so discussion is often somewhat fruitless. (best would be a short youtube video)

I'm not really sure whether I like your general concept of picking units akin to moba games. In dota you only have, say, five main hero types, and even then there are similarities between all the heroes. An RTS can't get away with that, you need to have properly defined units that have unique gameplay. I think what will happen in your game is that you'll be forced to essentially have a set tech-path, but then you get to pick one unit out of three per tech-path, and they might have to be quite similar. And the chance exists for games to either be decided by build-order wins, or for little variety in unit picks. (depending on how many choices you give and the similarities between choices)

Blizzard once had a concept of allowing battle cruisers to either upgrade (if I recall) one of three upgrades: a shield, an aoe attack and yamato cannon. I don't know why they abandoned that idea, but it was in alpha, so who can tell. I thought maybe having in-game choices between upgrades or units had potential. Imagine if you had to pick Robo, Twilight Council or Stargate for protoss, and then you were locked out of other choices, but as compensation for that each of those buildings had a few more units. I don't know if it would be fun, but it might increase variety in a manageable way.

I think two races is a good idea too, but you have to solve the problem of mirror match-ups. Blizzard solves it by making it statistically less likely for them to happen, which is not a good solution. With two races, two out of three matches will be mirrors and there has to be some level of asymmetrical design there. With your concept of picking units, what you could do is to not allow two players to pick the same units, simulating a match-up between two different races.

And about your choice for humans vs aliens: I honestly think that one of the best things that could happen to the RTS genre is for either Riot or Valve to decide to expand their moba game to include an RTS game. In this way they could piggyback on the engine and the available units, and therefore the two races could be, say, night elf vs undead, which is supposedly an inspiring rivalry to anyone that played dota.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-15 15:57:44
February 15 2013 15:47 GMT
#15
On February 15 2013 23:02 Grumbels wrote:
I think it's very admirable to actually create the units that you have concepts for. I know it's in the context of your own imagined game, but it's something that's really lacking in a lot of discussions on TL. Nobody ever bothers to demonstrate their ideas (I'm guilty of that myself as well), so discussion is often somewhat fruitless. (best would be a short youtube video)

I'm not really sure whether I like your general concept of picking units akin to moba games. In dota you only have, say, five main hero types, and even then there are similarities between all the heroes. An RTS can't get away with that, you need to have properly defined units that have unique gameplay. I think what will happen in your game is that you'll be forced to essentially have a set tech-path, but then you get to pick one unit out of three per tech-path, and they might have to be quite similar. And the chance exists for games to either be decided by build-order wins, or for little variety in unit picks. (depending on how many choices you give and the similarities between choices)

Blizzard once had a concept of allowing battle cruisers to either upgrade (if I recall) one of three upgrades: a shield, an aoe attack and yamato cannon. I don't know why they abandoned that idea, but it was in alpha, so who can tell. I thought maybe having in-game choices between upgrades or units had potential. Imagine if you had to pick Robo, Twilight Council or Stargate for protoss, and then you were locked out of other choices, but as compensation for that each of those buildings had a few more units. I don't know if it would be fun, but it might increase variety in a manageable way.

I think two races is a good idea too, but you have to solve the problem of mirror match-ups. Blizzard solves it by making it statistically less likely for them to happen, which is not a good solution. With two races, two out of three matches will be mirrors and there has to be some level of asymmetrical design there. With your concept of picking units, what you could do is to not allow two players to pick the same units, simulating a match-up between two different races.

And about your choice for humans vs aliens: I honestly think that one of the best things that could happen to the RTS genre is for either Riot or Valve to decide to expand their moba game to include an RTS game. In this way they could piggyback on the engine and the available units, and therefore the two races could be, say, night elf vs undead, which is supposedly an inspiring rivalry to anyone that played dota.


Yeah, I have been thinking about the exact terms of choosing units/techs as this determines a lot about the playability.
Right now I'm tending towards making many "1 of 2" choices.
E.g: you either choose the Venus Transport (fast, flying, cloaked groundmode, medium amount of cargo) or the Merkur Transport (flying, "beam me up"-ability, bigger amount of cargo) - so a choice between to transporters. Whatever you choose, your options will be similar for the same race, but your playstyle will differ.

About the scenario: I'm not the biggest fan of magic in RTS games. I like them very "physics" based, and therefore I simply prefer real war/sci-fi scenarios over fantasy ones.

And as you said, some stuff is probably easiest to understand if I make a youtube-video of it. So "I present to you" () the Jupiter Fighter, equipped with 3 Juno Warheads - fireing at Protoss Dummies.

Edit1: Sidenote: for some reason the Jupiter does two times his damage on the normal attack and evaporates those warp prisms much to fast... Just a small bug.
Edit2: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand fixed
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
February 26 2013 14:33 GMT
#16
I'd try this if it were made
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
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