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yea so yesterday was NOT a good day for me, played 15 games won like.... 2 or something. 10 or so of those losses was ZvT (can't remember the last time I won a ZvT).
Now the thing is that I often just play people from TL (Nyo, Xib and Scara played me yesterday iirc) who is better then me. (they're all atlest like C-). But this brings me to my problem:
The Problem:
I feel utterly confused when it comes to ZvT. During the games I can't think. It's not like play vs. toss where you can sit back, macro and wait either for a fast 2-2 or 3-3 and then just a-move while picking off HT's with your mutas. And it's not like ZvZ, where I actually know my objectivs.
ZvT is so fast paced, you have to have 6-10 things going at the same time. So I thought I'd create a topic in the strat forum about this. But then I decided not to make yet another [H]OMG I SUCK AT ZVT thread.
The Solution
I instead decided to forget what I currently "know" about ZvT, clamp down and read a couple of threads. I got the day off tomorrow, and next weekend aswell. I'm gonna play atleast 15 ZvT's a day when I'm off and try to fit in atleast 5 when I am working. I am also gonna try to play micro maps, one of my weaker points, specifically muta-micro maps.
The short term goals
Anyway, this is part one in what will be a weekly report for me. So my goals for the first week are:
1) Improve muta micro
2) Learn to time hive-tech better
3) Get my flanking working
4) Learn how to play 2hat muta depending on T's opening.
 
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The short term goals
Anyway, this is part one in what will be a weekly report for me. So my goals for the first week are:
1) Improve muta micro
2) Learn to time hive-tech better
3) Get my flanking working
4) Learn how to play 2hat muta 3 hatch depending on T's opening.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
If muta micro is hard, then you can either
1) train muta micro
or
2) go for lurker builds instead.
I got to C- going mostly lurkers against Terrans, because my muta micro is just bad.
Hive-tech timing and stuff, you gotta learn through understanding the Terran's build and timings. Probably through VODs and stuff.
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ZvT is probably the hardest MU in some aspects, because it is like 4-5 different and complex mini-games all in one. It can be ling rush/harass/contain, or stacked muta micro, or lurkerling with and without defilers, or ultras, or guardians, sometimes even all of those in the same game. Each phase is played completely differently.
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What exactly are you confused about in ZvT? I've always thought the exact opposite as you, in ZvP things seem less clear cut in what you need to do, and in ZvT, there's always 1 thing that you need to be working towards.
Expand->sunk up and survive until your mutas are out-->take 3rd/get lurkers/start upgrading-->make queen's nest/delay terran until defilers-->retake map control with defiler lurkling plague/take 4th gas-->make 2nd evo/get ultra den-->take 5th gas/fight terran with ultraling and plague/swarm.
Obviously it's not that easy, and there's alot of shit going on. Just try to make all the little things easier for yourself. Spread tons of ovies around the map to spot drops. Have scourge patrolling the outside of your base. Make sunks if you are still having problems. Spread lings throughout the map to make sure the Terran army never catches you out of position.
All ZvT is, is just barely surviving as you tech to ultra ling. Try playing a few games with a singular thought at every point. Just focus on the 1 big goal you have at each point in the game. It's really hard to be consistently attacking until you have ultra ling, but unfortunately that takes a ton of gas to support with proper upgrades.
I don't know exactly what your problem is since you didnt post a rep or elaborate, but just try to make your life easier. Have a defiler at each base at all times, make sunks if you feel uncomfortable defending your expos. USE NYDUS CANALS. They are life savers, you can stop a drop cold by having a defiler laying around the hatchery, plaguing the marines, then pop like 12 lings through the nydus and clear it up. Even 1 sunken colony can rape a drop if you plague the marines. Just keep making it easier and easier to defend each of your bases and try to get to ultra ling(i.e. keep a lurker or 2 in your main/expos to help vs drops. Most terrans will fall apart once you get well upgraded ultra ling out. You just have to focus on solid defense. Make sure you ALWAYS have 3-4 lurkers and a defiler protecting expos that can be attacked by the T's army. Just pop a swarm off on top of the lurkers and the threat is over for about 25 seconds, which buys you time to either flank the army with your main army, or bring more units through the nydus canal and chase the army away with another swarm. Don't cheap out on scourge either, all the gas intensive zerg units in the game mean nothing if the terran can float his vessels above them irradiating at will.
Just remember that ultraling is fucking imba
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Xib you know you're gonna have to grind this trough with me 
Sixghost:
The thing with ZvP is that you never actually have to give away map control, you can get it pretty early and if you just keep on to that and deny him his 3rd you're basically in the clear, also make sure you're ahead in upgrades (I take my +1/+1 at the same time). I'm not saying it's "easy" but it's easier since against T you never really have mapcontrol until lategame.
The thing with spreading ovies is that ovie speed is far down on the list ZvT, so you're gonna have to sack alot of ovies unless your placement is fucking awesome.
Also thanks for the advice, when those who know ZvT talk about it it sounds so easy, like day[9] said once "when his first push comes out, just run in with lings from one side, lurks from the other and get your mutas in there from a 3rd location". sounded really easy so I tried it. it wasn't easy 
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Go fast defiler, make the queens nest when lurker aspect is halfway done. Thats what made ZvT my best mu. Dont get defilers to late!
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On July 18 2009 20:49 Julmust wrote:Xib you know you're gonna have to grind this trough with me Sixghost: The thing with ZvP is that you never actually have to give away map control, you can get it pretty early and if you just keep on to that and deny him his 3rd you're basically in the clear, also make sure you're ahead in upgrades (I take my +1/+1 at the same time). I'm not saying it's "easy" but it's easier since against T you never really have mapcontrol until lategame. The thing with spreading ovies is that ovie speed is far down on the list ZvT, so you're gonna have to sack alot of ovies unless your placement is fucking awesome. Also thanks for the advice, when those who know ZvT talk about it it sounds so easy, like day[9] said once "when his first push comes out, just run in with lings from one side, lurks from the other and get your mutas in there from a 3rd location". sounded really easy so I tried it. it wasn't easy
Yeah, but knowing how to give up map control and play defensively is really important for you to learn.
Also, six, I think a problem may be that there are fifty billion different things the T can do, and it's really hard to know how to respond to all of them properly, in which case it's definitely not as "clear cut" as the current PvZ trends.
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On July 18 2009 18:09 georgir wrote:
ZvT is probably the hardest MU in some aspects, because it is like 4-5 different and complex mini-games all in one. It can be ling rush/harass/contain, or stacked muta micro, or lurkerling with and without defilers, or ultras, or guardians, sometimes even all of those in the same game. Each phase is played completely differently.
I totally agree with you but really, T got advantage about tower and mass Marines/Medics.
For me the hardest one is still TvP... P has hard difficulty for this one.
But your opinion is really good. I agree in this way.
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On July 18 2009 20:49 Julmust wrote:Xib you know you're gonna have to grind this trough with me Sixghost: The thing with ZvP is that you never actually have to give away map control, you can get it pretty early and if you just keep on to that and deny him his 3rd you're basically in the clear, also make sure you're ahead in upgrades (I take my +1/+1 at the same time). I'm not saying it's "easy" but it's easier since against T you never really have mapcontrol until lategame. The thing with spreading ovies is that ovie speed is far down on the list ZvT, so you're gonna have to sack alot of ovies unless your placement is fucking awesome. Also thanks for the advice, when those who know ZvT talk about it it sounds so easy, like day[9] said once "when his first push comes out, just run in with lings from one side, lurks from the other and get your mutas in there from a 3rd location". sounded really easy so I tried it. it wasn't easy
You really only need a couple of ovies to help spot drops. Just stick a few in the obvious spots such as the edges of the map. And after that, spread your remaining overlords around the perimiter of your base to give yourself a few seconds more to react to the dropship.
Really you do have map control alot in ZvT, it just doesn't feel like it. It's not the same kind of map control as you get in ZvP if you are massing hydras. You just have to accept the fact that terran is going to be pushing you around for 20 or so minutes. However if you don't like playing the matchup like that, try playing mass lair with +1 range and fast carapace upgrades. People really underestimate this kind of BO. As long as you are decent at large army control it can be kind of fun. There's a rep on TL of gosia vs some T on othello where he goes 5 gas before he techs to hive, then immediately gets ultras.
edit - search for gosia in the TL rep database. Its gosia vs yosh on othello posted on nov 28 2008.
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I know the op says he wants to learn how to 2 hatch muta, but if your interested in learning how to 3 hatch muta this replay is a must watch.
http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1251
Its Jaedong vs Mind on othello. I watched this replay like 10 times when learning how to play ZvT and it helped me so much. Try to watch every little thing Jaedong does and think why he is doing what he is doing.
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The thing with ZvP is that you never actually have to give away map control, you can get it pretty early and if you just keep on to that and deny him his 3rd you're basically in the clear, also make sure you're ahead in upgrades (I take my +1/+1 at the same time). I'm not saying it's "easy" but it's easier since against T you never really have mapcontrol until lategame.
Thats wrong. In ZvT you do get map control many times throughout the game. If you open with the typical 2 or 3hatch muta, you have map control while your mutas are out. The reason being is that he cannot leave his main while you harass him. If he does, he might lose all of his scvs. So, thats the timing that you can take a 3rd. If he tries to push out, rape him with muta/ling surround.
If you open with 2 or 3 hatch lurker, you have map control until he has a vessel. He wont push with just 2 scanners, unless you are reallly bad with your lurker, and lose them all. It's really hard to push out with only scan, as a good zerg will just back up and waste your scan. This is your timing to get a 3rd.
Hive tech can come in 12-13 minutes, which is closer to midgame than lategame, and of course darkswarm gives you map control again (assuming you are killing his vessels).
There are alot of times where you can control the flow of the game
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Please PLEASE explain to me why that replay just ended?
Why didnt the terran kill those lurkers with siege?
It seemed like he was not even trying =/ I mean at the end he started throwing marines and stuff into the lurkers? I assume to free up Psi...
What am I missing? I try to do Lurker/Ling VS my friend and his tanks just destroy me.
The only way I beat him is going Muta/Ling and owning his economy and tanks... but now he just goes goliath tank and I am doomed.
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EPT
