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So for the past couple of days I have been only playing PvZ on iCCup and damn it, it is such a hard match up. With PvP and PvT, if my scouting probe dies I can wait for observers, and I'll be fine. In PvZ, if I dont have a corsair or a scouting probe within the Zerg's base for the whole game it seems like I will automatically lose. There are so many possible cheeses that Zerg can do and alot of D level players play unorthodox, making it hard to counter what they are doing.
Example: I was playing a game today and I got my corsair out at the right time and saw that my opponent had 5 hatcheries, a hydralisk den, and a spire. So I instantly think that this is standard play and I will be facing hydras with scourge. So instead of putting money into cannons at my minerals I decided to make more zealots. Turns out, that my opponent built mutas before hydras, and it totally threw me off balance and I lost the game. While I know that there is a muta transition within the 5 hatch hydra build I read that it does that around 110 supply, and zerg was no where near that trigger.
Also its a pain to memorize FE layouts, and most of the time I get the layout wrong and get killed my a run by. I guess its one of those things that I just need to do, but its not fun to memorize.
So I've been trying to do the 2 Archon +1 build or whatever you want to call it since its the only up to date recommended thread. I think my timings are always slightly a bit off, and my forces always get crushed. I have about a 15% to 20% winning rate against Zerg, its pretty frustrating. I would say that I am probably D-/D for my PvZ. So that makes me D-/D for PvZ, D for PvP, and D+ for PvT.
TL;DNR I suck balls at PvZ, now help me with my questions.
Questions! 1. To Protoss users, how do you memorize FE build layouts for maps?
2. For the 2 Archon +1 Speed Zealot build what is the goal of it? I'm not sure if I should be attacking the Zerg with my forces once I get two Archons or if I should just be using these forces to secure my second expansion. Also, if anybody has a replay this build that would be great. There are some replays in the thread but the links or dead or they are linking to replays that are not exactly the build but some different variation.
3. How do I deal with players who play unorthodox so that I can't read what they are going to do? The example above should give everybody an idea of what I'm talking about.
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On June 29 2009 13:13 Flow.of.soul wrote: Turns out, that my opponent built mutas before hydras, and it totally threw me off balance and I lost the game. While I know that there is a muta transition within the 5 hatch hydra build I read that it does that around 110 supply, and zerg was no where near that trigger.
that information is wrong, zergs go mutas whenever they feel like it.
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Are you really asking us how to memorize something?
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1. practice, perfect fe building placement helps, but not as much as getting probes to your ramp when lings are trying to run pass
2. the goal of any build is to kill shit and win games, you should stop thinking about this build that build and focus on why or why not something would work at a certain point. At lower levels there are 10230219831902 things your opponent does wrong that you can exploit, do it.
3. scout better and think more. if he has a shitload of hydras you should probably get cannon + storm, if you see lots of sunkens then get some cannons in your main, etc. only experience can help you
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honestly though, if your IQ is above 30, you can answer all of your questions and more by playing 5000 games and watching your own replays
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PvZ is a really unique match-up and I think experience plays a large roll. But it sounds to me you are missing a few key things that may help. First off you just need to remember general rules about the layout like placing forge above objects etc, and then you can do an ok wall-in on any map.
2 archon +1 speed zeal is a anti-muta timing ATTACK. You get your stuff ready and attack, and generally you expand while attacking.
Unorthodox play is best countered by good scouting and being able to tell what your opponents options are (which comes with experience). As you play more and become more accustomed to certain kinds of all-ins you will know how to better deal with them).
A thing that seems to work for me is when you do FE as soon as you get ur gateway up build 3 zeals (or 2 zeals 1 goon if u need to get rid of overlords) and then attack. The Z generally wont have much fighting units at this time and you can normally force him to spend minerals on sunkens/units and you can get some scouting done.
I hope this kind of helps :/
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Yeah I've seen that thread. I guess what I am actually asking is what are the rules for building layouts? I've heard that the forge is supposed to be below the gateway.
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At the lower ranks just go with the flow! Also about the building placement in FE, just remember where the Forge and Gateway allow for no blocks like this
[quote=Bluzman]- Forge below gateway is impassable. - Usually gateway below obstacle is passable despite looking very tight - Forge below obstacles is usually impassable. - Gateway above obstacle is usually impassable, but make sure you don't trap your zealots like in that famous game when some protoss went 2 gate proxy and trapped his initial zealots, so he gg'd before even being scouted. - Gateway to the left of an obstacle is often impassable. - Forge to the right of an obstacle is oten impassable. - Forge is generally more likely to block than gateway. - Pylons don't block anything except minerals. - Minerals have 100% collision size (2 matrices), therefore, they block with nearly anything.[/quote] And then as far as the actual placement, just wing them
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From my iCCup experience I figured out that PvZ is too complex of a matchup unlike PvT where people can just be like "k get arbs here, k attack here if he does X." and you'll do just fine. In PvZ everything is much more complex. I used to completely fail PvZ, until i started playing a bit of ZvP. I started to see all the timings and figured out how to counter whatever the zerg does.
ZvP gives you a better understanding of the zerg race, but in PvZ the only true way to learn is to keep playing 46523756234 matches, watch the replays, slow down a bit and be more precise(because if you lose your reavers/templars you fucked) .
play on 2player maps because this way it's way easier to scout.
My zerg is around D level, and when I offrace and play against D level P players, I realize the main reason they lose is because they lack early game skills which are probably the most important.
You have to practice keeping that probe alive, practice organizing/composing your army, practice your wallins, slowly feel your way into what to do tocounter the Z.
Theres no way someone can just tell you. K get this here and this here and you'll be fine like in PvT
remember, if you can keep the probe alive you can win!
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I think if you are truly unsure what the player is going (like you dont have a clue and they have both spire and den) then just build cannons in ur mineral and the front. I know it's reduncdant and can be wasteful, but better be safe. So do both.
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just attack him and retreat if you have to adapt as soon as u know what his tech is
but, i mean, protect urself from sneakly lings too. best way is to attack out some, scout with probe, attack
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On June 29 2009 13:13 Flow.of.soul wrote: 1. To Protoss users, how do you memorize FE build layouts for maps?
What I do is start a game with a computer, and then remove it as the countdown starts. I have the placements for that map pulled up (they're on Liquipedia, it's a REALLY useful tool) and just get the placement down for every position on the map using the pictures to guide me. I might do this 2 or 3 times by restarting the game, and then when I think I've got it down I close the window with the pictures and try to do it by memory. This probably sounds really boring to you, but I've lost to so many run-by's that I feel its worth it, and since I've started doing it I haven't had ANY problems with run-by's at all.
It really does sound like a lot to memorize (and tbh all I really know right now is Heartbreak Ridge and Destination haha, Colosseum is really easy to do cause it's so narrow), not everything has to be exact. You'll get an idea of where the Forge and Gateway goes and that's all you need.. as long as your large units can get out of your base and your Cannons don't block that way either, you're fine.
On June 29 2009 13:13 Flow.of.soul wrote: 3. How do I deal with players who play unorthodox so that I can't read what they are going to do? The example above should give everybody an idea of what I'm talking about.
Scouting is so important in PvZ it's not even funny, and this sorta comes from experience. Watching your replays when you lose is very useful in sorta seeing what the Zerg did and comparing it to other games.. you'll learn what is standard and sorta learn what to expect when you're playing somewhat blind. Get used to counting Hatcheries, looking at Drone count, and seeing what they're using larva for at the Hatcheries. Again, a lot of it comes from experience, so just keep playing!
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