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Fanatacist's recent guide on trolling has me thinking about the right balance of moderation and tolerance for teamliquid and other forums. I am not a moderator nor want to be, so I'm in no way saying that I know best, but as part of a community I feel we have a say on what we want that level of balance to be.
I think that there was no need for the thread to be locked. The argument for locking it was that the thread was degenerating into posts like "2.5/10" "
8=D/10", but I though those posts were hilarious and fine in the context. Everyone knows it's a troll thread and that the posts were not typed maliciously. A second argument is that it might encourage behavior like that in other threads, but most of us know how to judge context and everyone is expected to do it anyway. In short, I think that free speech should be taken seriously, and that a more active forum is more important than a thoughtful forum.
I'll be frank. I was irked when I tried to post in Fanatacist's thread only to learn about the "locked thread" feature. In my year and a half here I've never seen anything like this. Usually when a mod wants to stop discussion on a thread, it's just closed. And I was enraged when a blog post was closed in between the time I was typing a response and I submitted.
The blog happened to be about a tricky topic, and considering that it was not badly written "I fear the wrath of [the moderators] like a nerd fears the sun!", I thought the topic was justified. The blog writer had received an untactful and sarcastic personal message and was against common sense posting it in a blog. It's true that the intention of a pm is that it's supposed to be private, but if the receiver does tell other people, it's not like one can or should be able to stop them. It's like giving someone a secret threat in a dark alley and punishing him again if he tries to speak out.
One piece of feedback I'll enjoy from teamliquid is whether they believe this is an issue and their thoughts on the matter. I'll prefer that this be in general, but seeing as how it's already controversial it's best here to start. Also, others might not think this is an issue.
edit: ok then, here's the PM in question. Read the thread and note the context.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94901
This is a Warning!
Greetings! You've received this message because we here at Teamliquid have noticed a disturbing lack of personality in your posts. Most members here try to promote discussion by typing thoughtful, meaningful and interesting posts. Others post crude, primitive one-line responses that add nothing but more text to read. Right now, we've got you pegged as an "other". Generally, this means one of two things: 1) You haven't been putting enough effort into your posts, or 2) You're a zombie, caveman or one of those trained apes like in "Congo". Any of those things would be great if this were a buddy cop movie or a movie where you have to babysit a bunch of spoiled rich kids who learn to love you, but it isn't. It's a forum, where all we have to know you by is what you type. So here's to hoping you're part of the first group, and that in the future you put more effort into each post. We'd hate to have to ban you because we thought you were a zombie.
Seriously, smarten up. Next warning = another ban. You've had 2 so it will be much longer this time
Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
The Mod Staff
(Do not reply to this message. No one will receive it.)
 
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it's their site they can do w/e the fuck they want... there's no sort of mandatory internet democracy rule in place anywhere.
just my thought
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I don't see teamliquid as some sort of house for senior citizens. I've always seen it as a prison, pretty much like that of the series Prison Break; there is disorder from time to time and it won't be a big of a deal unless it is something really serious. Otherwise there's always room for the users to be creative, make stuff out of nothing (like making hand made knives), get important shit from exterior sources (like smuggling drugs into prison) there will always be some corrupted mod (which hands important stuff to a selected group of users which he trusts, most likely the vets) and as always, bash on the fish and teach them the rules of the game. This is why old posters are favored, they already for a part on the big family.
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On June 07 2009 14:26 Xeris wrote:
it's their site they can do w/e the fuck they want... there's no sort of mandatory internet democracy rule in place anywhere.
just my thought
I agree that they have the right to do as they please. But if other think similar to me it would be a more enjoyable, less uptight, and better forum if they considered some feedback from members of the community.
Also, this was more like a stream of consciousness, a response to a coincidence that happened to me, so I just want to see what people have to say.
On June 07 2009 14:27 EsX_Raptor wrote:
I don't see teamliquid as some sort of house for senior citizens. I've always seen it as a prison, pretty much like that of the series Prison Break; there is disorder from time to time and it won't be a big of a deal unless it is something really serious. Otherwise there's always room for the users to be creative, make stuff out of nothing (like making hand made knives), get important shit from exterior sources (like smuggling drugs into prison) there will always be some corrupted mod (which hands important stuff to a selected group of users which he trusts, most likely the vets) and as always, bash on the fish and teach them the rules of the game. This is why old posters are favored, they already for a part on the big family.
But it doesn't have to be that way. Would you voluntarily go to a prison?
Also, I note that the mods here have contributed much more to the community than anyone else. There is not much difference from the way I prefer it to be, to now. The difference is if a unthoughtful but unmalicious post is type, no one thinks one way or another about it.
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Well frankly, and I might be sounding a little crude but whatever... I am not in favor of having unequivocal equality just for the sake of the idea. I don't think there's anything necessarily "uptight" about it being the way it is.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I think you'll find the majority of people like the (relatively) tight ship that is run around here. I'm all for decent though so er rip.
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I believe the moderation is a large part of what has made tl what it is today.
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United States24701 Posts
The concept of 'free speech' is not applicable to teamliquid as that only involves government.
Any argument that you make about how mods should loosen up, or whatever, should be made with the goal of making tl more enjoyable... not obeying some pre-written rules about what should or shouldn't be allowed or encouraged. In some cases you did that, and in others you didn't.
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On June 07 2009 14:31 datscilly wrote:
But it doesn't have to be that way. Would you voluntarily go to a prison?
Well, my friend. We're all prisoners of this marvelous game called StarCraft aren't we? 
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On June 07 2009 14:35 Xeris wrote:
Well frankly, and I might be sounding a little crude but whatever... I am not in favor of having unequivocal equality just for the sake of the idea. I don't think there's anything necessarily "uptight" about it being the way it is.
I agree with this. I actually like the way tl is runned, it's gotten the site where it is now. It's true that vets do have their privileges but don't think they're above the rules. Everyone can get warned, banned, nuked etc.
I do appreciate your initiative to give feedback to the site but I've seen quite a lot of people trying to change the way stuff works on tl like this and I don't recall anyone succeeding. If we didn't like the way tl was run/works we wouldn't be browsing it 24/7.
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It seems like most people here favor the level of moderation that goes on in tl while acknowledging that it's harsh (and that's good, they say). However, have you been on the receiving end of it? The pm I read (out of context) seemed inappropriately harsh, and I though there could have been a better way to deal with it rather than to lose a member.
On June 07 2009 14:43 micronesia wrote:
The concept of 'free speech' is not applicable to teamliquid as that only involves government.
Any argument that you make about how mods should loosen up, or whatever, should be made with the goal of making tl more enjoyable... not obeying some pre-written rules about what should or shouldn't be allowed or encouraged. In some cases you did that, and in others you didn't.
I disagree. The internet, one could argue, was made for free speech.
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On June 07 2009 14:49 FirstBorn wrote:
I do appreciate your initiative to give feedback to the site but I've seen quite a lot of people trying to change the way stuff works on tl like this and I don't recall anyone succeeding. If we didn't like the way tl was run/works we wouldn't be browsing it 24/7.
I agree for the most part. At first glance I thought it would be nice if, say enough people wanted to unlock a thread then they can do that. But the messiness and unnecessary debate that goes into that kills that idea.
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On June 07 2009 14:49 datscilly wrote:
I disagree. The internet, one could argue, was made for free speech.
It's funny how one of the things I like the most about teamliquid is that free speech can become a privilege at times. And it's not necesarily linked with the number of posts but with common sense.
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I disagree. The internet, one could argue, was made for free speech.
The internet may have been, but was TL?
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FuDDx
United States5008 Posts
The Commandments are in no particular order. They're all equally important.
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE
2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE
3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING
4. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID
5. THOU SHALL NOT SPAM
6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
7. ENGLISH IS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE
8. THOU SHALL CONTRIBUTE TO THE SITE
9. READ THE COMMANDMENTS
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN
Rule one says it all this is not our house but we are able to come over and visit show stuff etc.
Start breaking furniture and trying to sleep with their ladies prepare for dissyland errr Disneyland.
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I think the way TL handle's thing is just fine. For the most part the moderators are polite and nice folks who I often agree with.
My warning's have all been polite "You are in violation of this rule, please stop. Thanks" And this was back even when I was a nooby under 10 post dude making bad threads.
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On June 07 2009 15:02 Manbear wrote:The internet may have been, but was TL?
Well, I think if tl aims to have one of the "highest quality moderation on the internet", then the level of free speech should be like in real life. Just because the internet allows people to easily broadcast words to more people, it does not mean that it should be more restrictive than in real life.
But the real issue that I want to discuss that no one offered there opinion on is the posting of PMs.
It's like giving someone a secret threat in a dark alley and punishing him again if he tries to speak out.
I thought that the DeathSpank's blog OP was interesting and everyone should be allowed to see it if they wanted to. What are the moderators afraid of, that everyone would go on an uprising if they saw it? Basically, the attitude one mod took in private was interesting and you're liabile to be called out on that.
My warning's have all been polite "You are in violation of this rule, please stop. Thanks" And this was back even when I was a nooby under 10 post dude making bad threads.
I didn't see this when I first posted this. This is what I was looking for.
In fact, I wish to post the PM to DeathSpank for all to see. Do people think that this is a good idea, bad idea, or neutral?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Just some thoughts.
What has always separated TL from other forums for me (even long before i got staffed) was a sense of identity. Strict moderation makes people think twice about what they are posting - that is an emotional and time investment. I can go on some random gaming blog and type "lol nice" thousands of times and no one has any idea who i am. I have invested nothing. I have no return. On TL once i hit a few hundred posts, have been through a couple heated discussions, i have invested time and interest not only into my posts but those around me. Maybe i argued with Idra about God. Maybe i made a thread about moderation standards. People see my name and based on my opinions and posts slowly start to get a character profile.
Why would i want to fuck that up? What a waste of time that would have been if i had tried decently and then had it all down the toilet cause i was too stubborn to meet a very reasonable standard. I watch new posters like a hawk because its fascinating to see people slowly evolve from 12 post nobody into a big contributor. I remember Blizzcon last year when people started spamming WATERDRAGONGHOSTCLAW all over the place and i had no idea who this kid was. Today he's about to help launch one of the biggest features we've done this year. If he hadn't become emotionally invested do you think he would have bothered?
The fact that you even made this blog shows that you care. As mods/admins our job is to be shepards - its to say "hey...thats not how we roll" and often thats all it takes to make a "lol check dis thread" into a decent contributor. Im not sure the stats on re-bans are - probably for some people all it takes is one 2 day ban to smarten them up. Other's that can't adapt are lost causes.
I don't like to draw a distinction between staff and veterans. The reason vets are vets is because they have invested time and energy into meeting expectations - staff simply represent the group and provide guidelines for noobies to rise through the ranks. If someone invests a couple hours a day into browsing or posting, they shouldn't have that ruined by someone who can't be bothered to be decent. We have enough people who do care and that do want to be here - those that are complacent and couldn't give a fuck get washed out.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On June 07 2009 15:20 datscilly wrote:
I thought that the DeathSpank's blog OP was interesting and everyone should be allowed to see it if they wanted to. What are the moderators afraid of, that everyone would go on an uprising if they saw it? Basically, the attitude one mod took in private was interesting and you're liabile to be called out on that.
DeathSpank's posting quality is subpar. It is my job to judge that and determine he is decent enough to be given a chance. He has 500+ posts and no other bad history so he gets a warning. Pretty standard - infact we have a list of auto PMs to send to shitty posters (warez links, one liners, drop in quality etc). The one he posted was one of the set (LOL you think i have time to write that up for one kid!. I'm not really sure what you are talking about moderators afraid of and hiding stuff. We aren't really hiding from anything in our own home....
As or his blog i closed it because he is trying to be a martyr or something. I really don't need to justify this lol.
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i have been banned for words said in MY blog.
just a warning before the BOT gets you. it's their house
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EPT
