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On April 04 2009 08:58 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2009 08:36 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 04 2009 08:25 DhakhaR wrote: I prefer to read the article on Wikipedia, then use their sources XD someday you'll get a professor eager to catch someone plagiarizing and he's going to check what sources the wikipedia article on your topic uses, see that they match your sources, and get you expelled for plagiarism Uh this is kind of out of the blue. What is wrong with using the same sources as the wikipedia article? The choice of sources is protected? I mean if you just list all 10 sources to look cool and then don't use 8 of them, then you have an argument I guess...
If anything, it's lazy, but not plagiarism. ANything that I need to research, I usually start at wiki, branch to their sources, and then actually find shit when I'm confident that I know what the hell I'm talking about.
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I believe this sentence summarizes your paper: On April 04 2009 07:29 Meta wrote:But the question is still unanswered.
From what I understand, you propose two ideas: the negative effects of Nintendo's non-competitive games and bad Japanese-Korean relations as the origin of Nintendo's non-competitive games. You back your ideas with no evidence whatsoever. All your evidence is somewhat related to your topics, but don't convince me about your ideas. Your lack of substansive evidence is prevalent throughout your entire paper.
For your first point about the link between Japanese-Korean relations and Nintendo's games, your only "evidence" is the history of conflict between Japan and Korea. Although you gave quite a nice lesson on history, I'm still left puzzled as to why Nintendo, a for-profit corporation, is trying to oppose Korean e-sports, which is reaching "unprecedented levels of popularity", just because of political differences between Japan and Korea. Everything else you mention is simply an assertion of your beliefs, which you even acknowledge to be only your beliefs.
Your second point, the negative effects of Nintendo's negligence of hard-core gamers, also leaves me unconvinced. From your paper, I don't see why this negligence is negative. In your first paragraph, you introduce this point. The second compares e-sports to traditional sports. No support for you point. The third gushes about the e-sports scene. Still no support of your thesis. Only your second to last paragraph says anything about the negative effects of Nintendo's game-making trends, but once again you only assert your opinion without evidence to back it up. I like e-sports and am happy to read about Super Smash and Starcraft, but if I were your professor, I would be even happier to read about why and how Nintendo's easy games are so bad. From your dogmatic opinions, I gather that you think making non-competitive games itself is sacrilege, and Nintendo's destruction of the competitive scene is inherently a bad thing. I wouldn't however, expect your professor to share your opinion while he/she is reading your paper. Good luck.
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If I were a prof and I saw a wikipedia source, I'd insta-fail.
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to me it depends on what the point of the paper is. if you are supposed to be learning how to do research then yeah, wikipedia should be a big no-no.
but if you are just persuading or presenting information, I really don't see the problem.
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On April 04 2009 09:49 travis wrote:
but if you are just persuading or presenting information, I really don't see the problem.
Even then, wikipedia is pretty much the equivalent of saying "some guy said so". If you're gonna put that, what's the point of even having sources in the first place? Just make up your own crap and don't worry about it being accurate.
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Well, wikipedia sources it's own articles. I would expect it to be the writer's job to check if wikipedia is using legitimate sources or not. If the teacher checks and it is not, then I would expect points to be deducted.
Wikipedia is a legitimate source for many topics that can be difficult to find sources on elsewhere. And to be honest I don't know where all the hate comes from. I have used wikipedia sooo much, and I can't recall a single time of seeing a wikipedia page that ended up being outright wrong. And it isn't often they are biased or inaccurate(excluding non-scientific articles).
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I mean it's not like published books or magazines are never inaccurate. I can recall times where the text books in high school were blatantly wrong. They were probably old though I guess.
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You propose tense historical political relations between Japan and South Korea as the reason that Nintendo is "opposed" to competitive gaming. This connection seems like a really, really long stretch. Like XinRan said, Nintendo is, in the end, a corporation. They just want to make more money, and they took advantage of the huge number of casual/social gamers out there and captured their market.
Like other people have mentioned, this essay comes off as biased. You make Nintendo out to be some evil corporation that's determined to kill the competitive gaming industry or something ![](/mirror/smilies/smile.gif)
But nonetheless, essays on esports and video gaming in general are always interesting!
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Lol even if wikipedia is allowed you shouldn't use it (use the sources the article cites). And what's with all of the first-person...
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United States47024 Posts
On April 04 2009 09:58 Cpt.Cocaine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2009 09:49 travis wrote:
but if you are just persuading or presenting information, I really don't see the problem. Even then, wikipedia is pretty much the equivalent of saying "some guy said so". If you're gonna put that, what's the point of even having sources in the first place? Just make up your own crap and don't worry about it being accurate. Wikipedia is sourced much better than almost any non-academic writing out there. Oftentimes its more accurate than books that aren't written for an academic audience, since it can edited once a mistake is found. So its far from "some guy said so."
If you'd fail someone for citing Wikipedia, then I'd call you incredibly naive. At this point, EVERYONE is going to USE Wikipedia. The difference is going to come down to whether they have the integrity to cite it, or try and fudge it onto other sources. A proper research paper should have its own sources, but the fact of the matter is that almost everyone is going to have started with Wikipedia as a jumping off point, unless they're already reasonably well-versed in the field.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 04 2009 08:58 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2009 08:36 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 04 2009 08:25 DhakhaR wrote: I prefer to read the article on Wikipedia, then use their sources XD someday you'll get a professor eager to catch someone plagiarizing and he's going to check what sources the wikipedia article on your topic uses, see that they match your sources, and get you expelled for plagiarism Uh this is kind of out of the blue. What is wrong with using the same sources as the wikipedia article? The choice of sources is protected? I mean if you just list all 10 sources to look cool and then don't use 8 of them, then you have an argument I guess... You're using the materials the exact same way they have, and it's fairly easy to spot because the sources are the same and the context is the same. It's very close to plagiarism. Alan Dershowitz was accused of plagiarism because he did exactly what people are talking about and the source he drew upon was a piece of shit that had poorly used its own sources. Luckily he's also one of the top professors in the country and Harvard let it slide.
You can use Wikipedia to get an idea, but for collegiate papers you shouldn't be relying on their sources. 1. Their sources are limited and may be out of context, and 2. you should have access to much better sources through JSTOR/Muse/etc.
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United States22883 Posts
As for the OP's paper... it's clear you're an engineering student. :x If you'd really really really like I could do a full edit (if you send me the doc) but it's basically written like a blog, not an academic paper.
Editing aside, I'm not sure your thesis even makes much sense. Look at the three biggest eSports games in S. Korea. SC (10 years old), Kart Rider (free) and Sudden Attack/CS (both free.) Why would any company attempt to enter the eSports market there when they're at a huge cost disadvantage? Any what competitors have tried to make that leap? Do Korean's even know Halo exists? What has Playstation done for competitive gaming?
And look at your requirements for a competitive game. First of all, I disagree that those are necessary components. They're components of STARCRAFT, but not other games, and certainly not most other Blizzard games.
Clearly Blizzard knows how important it is to make games with utmost integrity and respect for the community, as releasing a bad sequel to this game would surely destroy the competitive scene. Not all companies put that much effort into creating solid, competitive games, including Nintendo, one of the oldest video game companies still alive today. Diablo 1, Diablo 2, WC, WC2, SC/BC, WC3, Ghost, WoW. How many of those games fit your definition of a competitive game? Only one, so you can't simply say the parts in bold, since most of the time Blizzard doesn't put that much effort into creating "solid, competitive games."
I suppose there's Gears tournaments in the US, but it's not much of a competitive game and there's probably an even greater number of Pokemon tournaments.
I think you're confusing the idea of mature games with competitive games, which are totally different concepts.
Lack of integrity? Why on earth would S. Korea's eSports scene factor into Nintendo's decisions, when S. Koreans don't even buy consoles? By shipping non-adult games to Americans, they can somehow spite S. Korean competitive gamers who don't even buy most of their PC games, let alone console games?
Honestly, the only connection I can see between Korean eSports and Japan/Nintendo is with the embargo, which helped create S. Korea's eSports scene. Embargo -> expensive import consoles -> S. Korean boom in computers over other electronics -> fantastic infrastructure -> eSports. \
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last time I checked, WC3 is competitive. Ghost doesn't exist. WoW, they tried to make it competitive, but it's kinda hard to make an MMORPG competitive. It also doesn't really make sense to list each game individually, you have to look at the franchises. It's not like there's Diablo 1, then they'll try to make Diablo 2 competitive. So you have Diablo, Starcraft, and Warcraft. 2 of the 3 are competitive. Not bad.
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United States24554 Posts
On April 05 2009 11:56 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2009 08:58 micronesia wrote:On April 04 2009 08:36 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 04 2009 08:25 DhakhaR wrote: I prefer to read the article on Wikipedia, then use their sources XD someday you'll get a professor eager to catch someone plagiarizing and he's going to check what sources the wikipedia article on your topic uses, see that they match your sources, and get you expelled for plagiarism Uh this is kind of out of the blue. What is wrong with using the same sources as the wikipedia article? The choice of sources is protected? I mean if you just list all 10 sources to look cool and then don't use 8 of them, then you have an argument I guess... You're using the materials the exact same way they have, and it's fairly easy to spot because the sources are the same and the context is the same. It's very close to plagiarism. Alan Dershowitz was accused of plagiarism because he did exactly what people are talking about and the source he drew upon was a piece of shit that had poorly used its own sources. Luckily he's also one of the top professors in the country and Harvard let it slide. You can use Wikipedia to get an idea, but for collegiate papers you shouldn't be relying on their sources. 1. Their sources are limited and may be out of context, and 2. you should have access to much better sources through JSTOR/Muse/etc. First of all the quality of the sources that you take from Wikipedia or anywhere else are irrelevant to a discussion of whether taking those sources are either ethical or possibly plagiarism.
I think this issue is not trivial as an ethical concern, but is not at all plagiarism.
"the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."
Obviously using the same sources as someone else is not an imitation of language. It could be argued that you are copying the 'thought' process of another writer (Wikipedia article creator), But I have never heard of somebody's choice of sources being protected. It's lazy, rude, and obnoxious to use the same exact sources as someone else... but I don't see anything else wrong with it if your utilization of those sources is creative/unique.
I'd think you'd need to be writing at the post-graduate level (or possibly post-doc) for this to be a concern worth even discussing.
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This is well put together, but it seems to be written with an obvious bias towards competetive gaming. I though when you write these sorts of papers you are supposed to not show a bias? Also, I really dont think there is any sort of discrimination by Nintendo, but, as you said, coming from a modern-anthropology type of class, i can see why you would add that in there.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 05 2009 12:28 blabber wrote: last time I checked, WC3 is competitive. Ghost doesn't exist. WoW, they tried to make it competitive, but it's kinda hard to make an MMORPG competitive. It also doesn't really make sense to list each game individually, you have to look at the franchises. It's not like there's Diablo 1, then they'll try to make Diablo 2 competitive. So you have Diablo, Starcraft, and Warcraft. 2 of the 3 are competitive. Not bad.
A few of the most important include: balance, elimination of randomness, precision of control, and a high learning-curve. No, they're not. Blizzard doesn't shoot for eSports worthy games. It certainly wasn't their intention for SC either.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 05 2009 12:33 micronesia wrote: I'd think you'd need to be writing at the post-graduate level (or possibly post-doc) for this to be a concern worth even discussing. Depends on the type of class. For a throw away engineering comm class, probably not. I think I'd get in trouble if I blatantly used a bunch of Wikipedia sources in the exact same context as the entry uses them though. I'm not sure if Turnitin checks for that stuff though. It'd certainly be harder to catch unless you're on a superstar level like Dershowitz, but if caught I think there'd still be some punishment.
And I do believe it would fall under the thought process portion. If you imagined Wikipedia as a series of research papers, then the structure/outline of each paper is dependent upon the author and how they would like to present the information. In the work for that, they choose specific sources and use them in a specific way to make whatever their argument is. Wikipedia may just be a series of descriptive reports, but I think the same concept applies. The author did the fact finding and made the decision to use them in a particular context, so it's essentially their work.
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Thanks for the advice everyone, I've revised it and added another source, specifically an interview with the president of Nintendo about SSBB.
Here's the updated version:
+ Show Spoiler + The newly-emerged world of “e-sports,” or professional video gaming, is exploding with popularity in Seoul, South Korea. Every year the scene grows, as new and innovative competitive video games are released that could potentially harbor a broad following. However, not all video game companies are releasing this type of video game, for various reasons, including the fact that making a video game that is meant to be played professionally is extremely hard to do, takes a long time, and requires a lot of resources. The Japanese company Nintendo, in particular, seems to be releasing game after imbalanced game recently, marketed toward everybody in the world – except video-gamers. This trend has only recently developed, and has mirrored the rise of the professional scene in South Korea. The fact that cultural biases between Japan and South Korea have existed for centuries is not mere coincidence, and I believe there is a direct relationship between those prejudices and the fact that Nintendo is moving in a new direction. If video games are the modern version of throwing a javelin, running around a track, or wrestling, then Seoul would be the new Athens in regards to being the competition capital of the world. The first World Cyber Games, the self-proclaimed Olympics of video game competition, was held there in 2000. Statistics show that nearly a third of South Koreas population of 50 million play video games regularly, or follow professional gaming competitions in much the same way that Americans follow sports. 1 The professionals themselves also earn similar salaries to professional sportsmen of American or Europe, ranging from a solid $20,000 all the way up to $250,000, and harbor extreme celebrity status, due to the fact that many tournaments are broadcast live on one of South Korea’s multiple professional video gaming TV stations. 2 Nothing is more important to the survival of this industry than the games themselves. This particular facet of e-sports is one of the most extraordinary examples of the differences between professional video gaming and traditional sports. A new soccer or baseball isn’t created every year, and there are no sequels. The survival of this multi-billion dollar industry in South Korea rests solely on the shoulders of video game developers. There are many, many factors that go into making a game competitive. A few of the most important include: balance, elimination of randomness, precision of control, and a high learning-curve. One of the most popular video games in South Korea is Starcraft, released by Blizzard Entertainment in 1998. It’s now eleven years later, and this game is more popular than ever. Without going into much description of the game, it’s a real-time strategy game where players gather resources, build armies with those resources, and try to eliminate their opponent. There are three completely distinct races a player can choose from, and yet they are all completely balanced against each other. Each player starts with one main building and four worker units, and the maps are sanctioned by KeSPA, the Korean e-Sports Player’s Association, to ensure elimination of one player being in an advantageous situation due to starting in a better location (elimination of randomness). The keyboard-and-mouse interface ensure that the actions players make are extremely precise, and the fact that professionals can average upwards of 300 actions-per-minute while still thinking about strategy are indicative of a game with a high learning curve. Furthermore, professional Starcraft players practice ten to twelve hours a day, seven days a week, making it nearly impossible for people with less training to be competitive against them, much like professional athletes. This is also the product of a high learning curve. Blizzard is currently working on the sequel to this game, which has been six years in the making so far and the game hasn’t even reached its beta-testing phase yet.3 Clearly Blizzard knows how important it is to make games with utmost integrity and respect for the community, as releasing a bad sequel to this game would surely destroy the competitive scene. Not all companies put that much effort into creating solid, competitive games, including Nintendo, one of the oldest video game companies still alive today. Nintendo has released some of the most amazing single-player games of all time. However, single-player isn’t enough in this new era, when video games are becoming a social phenomenon, and everybody wants to play against their friends or opponents halfway across the world. In my opinion, the closest the company has ever come to making a video game truly professional came at a time before internet competition became the standard: Super Smash Brothers Melee (SSBM) released in spring 2001. SSBM is a fighting game, where players choose from 26 characters to battle against each other. This game had most of the aspects introduced in the previous discussion, although balancing all characters of a fighting game is impossible. The slight lack of balance, however, was made up for by the learning-curve. Advanced players with high precision can control their character in ways that novice players usually don’t even understand. These high-precision maneuvers generally require lots of practice, but can give you an edge by reducing your character’s down-time, that is, the time it takes to recover after attacking or dodging, when your character is vulnerable. Nintendo released the sequel to this game in 2008, Super Smash Brothers Brawl (SSBB). Although it was well received with high acclaim, the advanced community rejected the game as a whole, for reasons which I will briefly describe. First of all, Nintendo took out all the high-precision maneuvers, resulting in a low learning curve, where players can “max-out” their skill rather easily. Second, for some reason the developers thought it would be a good idea to add a random element to the game: tripping. Occasionally, while running around the stage, your character will randomly fall over. This results in a less competitive game, for obvious reasons. And, lastly, the balance issues that accompany the release of any game were not countered by a high learning curve, because there is none, resulting in some characters just being flat out better than others, with a low chance of one ever beating the other. In an interview, the president of Nintendo Satoru Iwata said, about competitive internet competition, “…if you make an environment where everyone is trying to climb their way to the top of a single tall mountain, it’s clear that the people having fun would be limited to a small number of individuals.”4 What Iwata fails to realize is that the only way for someone to get better at a game is to play people who are better than you, and lose, repeatedly. Whether or not this is “fun” is up to the individual, but I personally feel like there is great satisfaction in failing over and over again, getting better and better, and finally a day comes when you achieve a winning record. Throughout the course of this entire interview, Iwata repeatedly mentions how he wanted the game to be accessible for beginners, while making it clear that the competitive gamer was not in mind. “Fundamentally, Smash Bros. is designed to make different things happen simply by pressing random buttons, so some amazing things can happen without even trying. This makes it easy for beginners to get involved.”4 Statements like this, while true, make competitive gamers shudder. Of course things will happen when you mash buttons, but even more amazing things happen when advanced players precisely maneuver themselves into advantageous situations, precisely counter those situations, and so on. Furthermore, in the same interview, Iwata goes on to say “I truly believe that Smash Bros. was made with less talented gamers in mind, and the idea that stronger players shouldn’t dominate game play is prevalent throughout the game.”4 This statement just doesn’t make sense. Why on earth wouldn’t a gaming company reward the players who spend time getting good at their game? In every sophisticated online ladder system, novices with low ranks are paired up with other novices, and advanced players are paired up with other advanced players. This way, everybody will win sometimes, and all of the competitive aspects of the original game could have been left in, and yet for some reason Nintendo chose to simply throw out all the competitive aspects of the game to solve this “problem” of novices losing all the time. Another example of Nintendo’s backing away from competitiveness in their games comes in the form of the controller they released for their newest console, the Wii. This controller, while revolutionary, lacks the precision needed for games to be played competitively. It uses infra-red sensors to allow motion detection, and most of the games rely on this motion detection as input. The problem is that there’s no way to get the kind of precision out of this multi-directional motion that you’d get from a traditional controller, with multiple buttons and joysticks. Even Iwata noted that in the development of SSBB, “The Nunchuk controller can be used to play the retail version of Smash Bros. Brawl, but it’s not highlighted as the main controller.”4 Even he knew that a game like SSBB would be too hard to play with such an imprecise controller. So why did Nintendo back away from creating a game with a high skill ceiling, and opt for a more accessible game? There is no reason why they had to take away the competitive aspects of the game, while keeping the simple controls, like in the original game. This way it would appeal to both the advanced player and still be accessible to beginners. For some reason, however, they decided to add tripping, take out the high-precision maneuvers, and ship the product without these things that made the original game competitive. Making games exclusively for the casual player is not a bad business model, it’s not necessarily a bad way to go about making games, but it definitely does show a lack of integrity, and a lack of respect for the competitive community that puts so much effort into figuring games out, and finding ways to win that the casuals are just too lazy to find for themselves. Blizzard, by contrast, listens to the competitive community, but still manages to retain the accessibility of their games to beginners that is so essential to sales. But the question is still unanswered: why not just keep the competitive aspects of your game in, when creating its successor? I believe the answer to this lies in the explosion of e-sports in South Korea, and the general mutual dislike between the Japanese and Korean cultures. In entering this discussion I’d like to say that I’m not trying to use blanket statements, and I do not mean any disrespect to the Japanese or the Koreans, but instead I’m merely pointing out a series of historical events that could lead anyone to believe that there is good reason for this mutual dislike. The two cultures have shared trade and culture for thousands of years, as well as a fair share of disputes. In 1592 Japan launched a series of two invasions into Korea, sparking a war that lasted seven years and ended all trade between the two nations.5 Since then their respective cultures have generally been on mutually bad terms. In 1895 the Japanese assassinated the empress of Korea, and in 1910 the Japanese empire annexed Korea.6 This annexation was only lifted in the culmination of World War Two, when Japan was defeated. There is still an embargo in place today banning the import of Korean and Japanese goods into the two countries, although it was partially lifted in 1998. The nature of the disputes runs deep in cultural history. Those differences are not lifted overnight, and could be a small contributing factor as to the reason why Nintendo seems to be in such opposition the competitive e-sports scene that may rise to unprecedented levels of popularity in the coming decades, both inside and outside of Korea. 1- http://www.associatedcontent.com/arti...outh_korea_a_national_pg3.html?cat=192- http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/GAMERS.TMP3- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft_II4- http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol1_page1.jsp5- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea6- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean-Japanese_disputes
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I Don't exactly aggree with the fact that Nintendo has no reason to not make hard core games.
Out of the entire world, id say not over 1/3 of gamers are hardcore.
I mean, its for all ages, too. My sister is like.. uhmm young... and she has a DS.
No one plays hardcore except many people at this forum. They target the casual players with a game that hardcore gamers expect to be just that, because they often continue sagas of hard games i.e. megaman, the legend of zelda, etc.
and since they care about money more than games, of course this is how itll roll for a while
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