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I hate Bisu.
Why did you have to ruin the MSL like this? Read what Flash had to say about it:
- You played against jaedong at the last set.
▲ To be honest with you, I did not want to play Jaedong Hyung today. We even have a proleague game with each other, and even if we played I wanted to play against jaedong at the winner's bracket. I was so sad, Jaedong Hyung is a player who doesn't deserve to drop out from RO32.
Look, even a punkass 16-year-old knows that you just denied this MSL a good player. Flash is no slouch, FBH is pretty damned good in the same 2 matchups Boxer was (neo-Boxer?), and Hwasin just showed he can take out the best in this Group. So why, Bisu?
Boxer wouldn't have done something like this in the group selection stages. He would have put HIMSELF in the group of death. But now we get you, you little selfish punk, who denies the fans some good players just for selfish advantage.
It's not cheating. But just like faking injury and trying to elicit fouls (Manu Ginobili anyone?) it damages the spirit of the game.
Conclusions...
Flash and JD: I have a lot more respect for these two players now. I think that there must be a bond of camaderie between these two guys and I think that Flash should, if he's a good bloke, treat his mate out to dinner and have a drunken night cursing that bastard Protoss.
Hwasin: What the fuck? Where did you come from? Anyhow GL and do us proud. Don't bust JD out of the MSL and then fail in the Ro16, that would make you hated.
Bisu: You may have talent, you may have looks, you may have tons of women, but you don't have class, and you sure as hell don't have any sense of what it truly means to be someone who contributes to the world of Starcraft. You see that interview? Flash, 17-year-old, sounds more mature than you, 20-year-old. I don't care how many games you win, I just can't respect a player who wants to win via pushing all his tough opponents into one group so they eliminate each other.
Sorry for all Bisu fans out there, I respect his playing ability, but I hate hate hate how he stacked this recent MSL group. I hope that you will agree that it was a dick move on his behalf.
  
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It was a good strategical move.
People may whine about lameness when someone 5pools.
But the game is about winning.
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On February 05 2009 22:58 Nytefish wrote:
It was a good strategical move.
People may whine about lameness when someone 5pools.
But the game is about winning.
People hated Hwasin when he threw his games vs. Calm, how is this different?
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sAviOr > Bisu in this MSL. It happened once, it will happen again
it's KARMA biatch
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On February 05 2009 23:00 t_co wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 22:58 Nytefish wrote:
It was a good strategical move.
People may whine about lameness when someone 5pools.
But the game is about winning. People hated Hwasin when he threw his games vs. Calm, how is this different?
Well I may have called it a good move, but I simply meant it increased his chances of winning, obviously it's not very sportsman-like. But there's no prize for sportsmanship, unless you rate the respect of people you don't know higher than thousands of dollars.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Flash and Bisu are really close btw lol.
Infact, Bisu really likes Flash. Bisu in MSL and OSL selection tried to sit next to Flash, but the directors kept saying they had to sit far away
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it was a pretty good strategic move. as much as i dont like the results, it's just too bad that hwasin was the superior player of the day and took out both of them.
revenge? get a high seed and do the same thing to him next season.
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Bisu is my favourite player, but I'm very unhappy he stuffed up these groups.
Like I said before, they should introduce seeding for Starleagues. It would be better for the fans and sponsors to see big names playing each other towards the end of the tournaments.
You dont want Federer vs Nadal in the 2nd round of a grand slam tournament, do you?
Anyways I feel sad and going to sleep now.
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Your giving way too much hate to Bisu. He did what he had to do to have the best chance of winning the MSL, and it's what your supposed to do, for your job, for your fans, for your team and for your sponsors. He did his job... and you hate him for that? Boxer or anyone else for that matter would not do anything different but putting themselves in a group where they feel the most comfortable. I would even argue Midas picking Savior was because Midas was confident that he would beat him, and if he hadn't choked hardcore (i.e. 7-8 tanks lost because of 1 lurker) he would have.
Your taking Flash's word as fact here, it seems that Jaedong lost to Hwasin by sacrificing 20+ lings to kill 3 rines which means that you do not deserve a spot in the MSL. And wth? The MSL is far from being ruined just because Jaedong is out. There's still Savior, Jangbi, Leta, Flash, Hwasin. If fact, the only notable player being out is Jaedong. There wouldn't be any contempt if Hwasin didn't make it out and FBH and Hwasin were eliminated which would prove the MSL is only ruined because Jaedong is out.
Your pre-hatred of Bisu is obviously exemplifying your hatred for his actions now.
Not like my love for Bisu isn't justifying his actions...
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On February 05 2009 23:00 t_co wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 22:58 Nytefish wrote:
It was a good strategical move.
People may whine about lameness when someone 5pools.
But the game is about winning. People hated Hwasin when he threw his games vs. Calm, how is this different?
If you can't tell the difference between this and intentionally throwing a game by deciding the outcome ahead of time with your opponent then you are too stupid to post, and no one should bother explaining it to you.
Also jaedong could have avoided this by beating Hwasin. So could Flash.
Don't even try to act like you would still make this thread if flash and jaedong passed and hwasin went out. You wouldn't have said a damn thing.
By your backwards shitbrained logic then you should hate hwasin as well for RUINING THE MSL FOR US by winning when he wasn't supposed to!!! *sob whine bitch*.
Shut the fuck up.
Not to mention its bisu's right to do whatever the hell he wants. Why? BECAUSE HE FUCKING WON.
If jaedong had played well enough to get seeded this wouldn't have happened either.
If you want to blame someone, blame jaedong for failing last season. That's the way bw goes, your favorite players don't always advance. Boo freaking hoo.
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The point is no other MSL champion stacked a group so they could get a free ride. Bisu went against the precedent for reasons that could only benefit himself and not others. I feel sad =[
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Kespa needs to set up a seeding system or something. How can everyone blame Bisu for doing what was best for him to win. I mean shit, his coaches probably instructed him to stack the group to give himself the best chance of winning the MSL.
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On February 06 2009 00:13 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2009 23:00 t_co wrote:On February 05 2009 22:58 Nytefish wrote:
It was a good strategical move.
People may whine about lameness when someone 5pools.
But the game is about winning. People hated Hwasin when he threw his games vs. Calm, how is this different? If you can't tell the difference between this and intentionally throwing a game by deciding the outcome ahead of time with your opponent then you are too stupid to post, and no one should bother explaining it to you.
I'll admit that throwing a game is much more extreme than what Bisu did here, but both are steps in the same wrong direction.
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On February 06 2009 00:06 Tensai176 wrote:
Your giving way too much hate to Bisu. He did what he had to do to have the best chance of winning the MSL, and it's what your supposed to do, for your job, for your fans, for your team and for your sponsors. He did his job... and you hate him for that? Boxer or anyone else for that matter would not do anything different but putting themselves in a group where they feel the most comfortable. I would even argue Midas picking Savior was because Midas was confident that he would beat him, and if he hadn't choked hardcore (i.e. 7-8 tanks lost because of 1 lurker) he would have.
Your taking Flash's word as fact here, it seems that Jaedong lost to Hwasin by sacrificing 20+ lings to kill 3 rines which means that you do not deserve a spot in the MSL. And wth? The MSL is far from being ruined just because Jaedong is out. There's still Savior, Jangbi, Leta, Flash, Hwasin. If fact, the only notable player being out is Jaedong. There wouldn't be any contempt if Hwasin didn't make it out and FBH and Hwasin were eliminated which would prove the MSL is only ruined because Jaedong is out.
Your pre-hatred of Bisu is obviously exemplifying your hatred for his actions now.
Not like my love for Bisu isn't justifying his actions...
Put yourself in the most comfortable group--that's cool. Putting others in an uncomfortable group so you can get ahead--not so cool.
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Why is that not cool? SOMEONES going to have to go into an uncomfortable group. You act like jaedong and flash have some holy aura that someone makes them special when being placed in groups? W. T. F.
You expect bisu to weigh every possibility of fairness to every player before deciding whats best for himself? THE GROUP SELECTION IS DESIGNED TO GIVE ADVANTAGE TO THE PREVIOUS SEASONS WINNER. Bisu took that advantage of that as he should.
Sure it would be awesome to have jaedong and flash both still in it but in every starleague a great player goes out early. Get over it.
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On February 06 2009 00:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Why is that not cool? SOMEONES going to have to go into an uncomfortable group. You act like jaedong and flash have some holy aura that someone makes them special when being placed in groups? W. T. F.
You expect bisu to weigh every possibility of fairness to every player before deciding whats best for himself? THE GROUP SELECTION IS DESIGNED TO GIVE ADVANTAGE TO THE PREVIOUS SEASONS WINNER. Bisu took that advantage of that as he should.
In almost every starleague a great player goes out early. Get over it.
IT went against Precedent. No where in recent times has a SL Champion done so much to ensure they would have the best seed possible. It certainly hurt him that he stacked a lot of fan-favorites into one group.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I completely agree. Bisu's attitude in general makes me sick, blaming maps for losses, making excuses, making gay groups like this one, dodging stork/bisu/flash/jaedong UGH MAKSE ME SICK
I never thought i'd say this, but my hate for lecaf has to settle for 2nd play to bisu atm, indeed my respect for jaedong has grown so w/e jaedong fighting...
@people discussing whether it was in bisu's best interest or not to rig the groups as such; the thing is, in isolation what bisu did is permissible. But imo, it's the culmination of these examples of poor sportsmanship which really make it hurt.
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@Avid
THE BEST SEED POSSIBLE? LMAO. He didn't even make it out of the round of 32. The champion picked a group he couldnt get out of! What does that tell you about the caliber of players that make it starleagues. EVERY player in a starleague is a fantastic player and capable of beating any other player if the game goes their way.
Or did you forget that Bisu didnt even advance?
Kinda makes your point look pretty silly doesn't it.
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On February 06 2009 00:28 Plexa wrote:
I completely agree. Bisu's attitude in general makes me sick, blaming maps for losses, making excuses, making gay groups like this one, dodging stork/bisu/flash/jaedong UGH MAKSE ME SICK
I never thought i'd say this, but my hate for lecaf has to settle for 2nd play to bisu atm, indeed my respect for jaedong has grown so w/e jaedong fighting...
You could look at it another way as well.
Maybe he was ensuring that at least two fan favorites made it through !
I mean if those players were all in different groups it is certainly possible that they could all fail.
I don't really believe that but I hope you at least see the point it raises.
It's not like any group in a starleague is actually "easy".
I think Bisu has displayed some amount of poor sportsmanship but this incident is not a prime example.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 06 2009 00:29 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
@Avid
THE BEST SEED POSSIBLE? LMAO. He didn't even make it out of the round of 32. The champion picked a group he couldnt get out of! What does that tell you about the caliber of players that make it starleagues. EVERY player in a starleague is a fantastic player and capable of beating any other player if the game goes their way.
Or did you forget that Bisu didnt even advance?
Kinda makes your point look pretty silly doesn't it. One could argue that switching players out like Bisu did ensured that he would have an easier run later on in the tournament, in addition to giving himself an "easy group" (because really, it was an easy group before we saw the games).
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can anyone specify what changes bisu made, ie what the groups were like before and who he changed
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On February 06 2009 00:29 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
@Avid
THE BEST SEED POSSIBLE? LMAO. He didn't even make it out of the round of 32. The champion picked a group he couldnt get out of! What does that tell you about the caliber of players that make it starleagues. EVERY player in a starleague is a fantastic player and capable of beating any other player if the game goes their way.
Or did you forget that Bisu didnt even advance?
Kinda makes your point look pretty silly doesn't it.
Hmm, Savior, Zero, MagMa +Bisu, or Hwasin, Flash, FBH and JD. Don't argue that the first group is harder overall just because Bisu couldn't make it out of it. No one said 'this group is hard for Bisu' ; just look at the liquibet. This is not some irrational hate people have, their ire for Bisu is well founded. The maps incident as well. We are not discussing the outcomes of the groups, sure he probably wouldn't of posted the blog if JD advanced (though I do not know), that doesn't change Bisu's attitude or what he did.
What about the precedent part that you never responded to?
P.S. Don't cuss and act condescending toward others-he supported his argument with facts while you just cussed him out and post "Kinda makes your point look pretty silly doesn't it." and stuff like that.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 06 2009 00:33 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 00:28 Plexa wrote:
I completely agree. Bisu's attitude in general makes me sick, blaming maps for losses, making excuses, making gay groups like this one, dodging stork/bisu/flash/jaedong UGH MAKSE ME SICK
I never thought i'd say this, but my hate for lecaf has to settle for 2nd play to bisu atm, indeed my respect for jaedong has grown so w/e jaedong fighting... You could look at it another way as well. Maybe he was ensuring that at least two fan favorites made it through ! I mean if those players were all in different groups it is certainly possible that they could all fail. I don't really believe that but I hope you at least see the point it raises. It's not like any group in a starleague is actually "easy". I think Bisu has displayed some amount of poor sportsmanship but this incident is not a prime example. Your making an unfair simplification. Of course there are no "easy" groups per say, but there are easier groups and harder groups. To deny the existence of easier and harder groups is to deny that there is a skill different between progamers. The fact remains that at face value that group seemed like the easiest group for bisu to advance out of. The fact that he didnt, and the reasons why he didnt, are up for debate.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
oh yea and Theforeverwar, let's not forget the Netizens
Netizen
Hey thanks for ruining everything Bisu
Netizen
WTF IS UP WITH GROUP F
Netizen
Oh wow bisu, planning to kill off ForGG, Jaedong and Flash? Oh yeah, thanks for ruining my Magma vs Stork Matchup I was looking forward to it
Netizen
GREEEDDDYYY
Netizen
I guess there is a reason why its called the "F" Group
Netizen
omg ur so mean ㅠㅠ
Netizen
hes first seed, gg no re
Netizen
I've lost all respect for Bisu. Savior better win now
Netizen
Ahh man I wanted to see Leta vs Magma too
Netizen
HAHA LOOK AT GROUP G
Netizen
Ahh man LeeSsang might die out in group F
Netizen
magma yo magma yo magma yo magma yo magma yo magma yo magma yo magma yo
Netizen
Wow it seems like Bisu planned this from the start. Poor Flash and Jaedong ㅠㅠ
Netizen
Whats wrong Bisu? Can't handle proper players like ForGG and Flash? You deserve to fail.
Netizen
fuck man group F ㅡㅡ
Netizen
WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G WHO WILL WATCH GROUP G
Netizen
Its been nice being a Bisu fan, I had a good time there ^^; Now seems like I must depart
Netizen
You put Flash and JD in one group then make ForGG play against Stork? Shame on you, for Shame.
Netizen
Jangbi made the Lineups fun, yet you fucked it up. I hope you get kicked off at RO32.
Netizen
Lost Saga MSL = Bisu plays against retards Lost Saga MSL = Bisu plays against retards Lost Saga MSL = Bisu plays against retards Lost Saga MSL = Bisu plays against retards Lost Saga MSL = Bisu plays against retards Lost Saga MSL = Bisu plays against retards
Netizen
LOL stork has 3 terrans and bisu has 3 zergs
Netizen
Bisu I thought you were a man.
Netizen
this msl sucksssss
Netizen
Group F: Child Slave vs My Town is North vs Hwasin vs African American
Netizen
Nobody can stop Bisu from being Bonjwa now. Literally.
from group selection night
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Bisu was smart, progaming is about winning not being kind to everyone. Bisu put the people he stands the biggest chance of losing in a group so hopefuly 1 or 2 would get knocked out. What do you expect Bisu to do?
"Ok, I really want that money but I want to be fair and increase my chance of getting knocked out early.. so let's do this. Flash, Jaedong, Stork you're all in my group"
Also are you angry because a Bisu stacked the group or because Jaedong got knocked out? Had Bisu put himself in the group and had say FBH somewhere else there's a good chance Jaedong would've still been knocked out. The competition is so close in progaming that the odds were against Jaedong from the start. Bisu pushed the odds in his favor because he had the opportunity. Do you think Jaedong would've done anything different? Or Flash? Bisu's logic was sound, stop bitching, sure it sucks Jaedong is out, it's a treat to watch him play but so what. I'm sure this MSL will be fine just the same.
Also, I don't like the fact that Bisu bitched about maps but Harmony is really really hard to play PvZ on so i understand why he was irked.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 06 2009 00:41 Pioneer wrote:
Bisu pushed the odds in his favor because he had the opportunity. Do you think Jaedong would've done anything different? Or Flash? Bisu's logic was sound, stop bitching, sure it sucks Jaedong is out, it's a treat to watch him play but so what. I'm sure this MSL will be fine just the same. Yes; arena MSL
Group A
Jaedong vs Bisu
Hwasin vs Frozean
(Hwasin and Jaedong advanced btw)
Jaedong DID do it differently when he had the opportunity to switch bisu out
Also, I don't like the fact that Bisu bitched about maps but Harmony is really really hard to play PvZ on so i understand why he was irked. Well it's his own damn fault, he didn't have to play savior on that map
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Is it so hard to just admit "Yeah okay Bisu fucked up with the groups"
I mean is it so hard to fucking say that?
Really?
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
And no Pioneer, he didn't bitch about Harmony. He didn't even mention harmony.
He bitched about other maps.
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Braavos36375 Posts
i don't know how much a fraternity the progamers are and how much respect top players give to the group selection, but to me trying to eliminate your foes by putting them in hard groups is a right you've earned from winning (or placing high) in the previous MSL. that's your privilege. what's so bad about bisu exercising his rights? i mean, sure it might look lame, but it's a sport, and bad matchups always happen early in playoff brackets because of seeding or other circumstances. it's just a fact of sports. are we supposed to expect a player who is looking out for his own self interest to simply be nice? sure, it doesn't make Bisu a nice guy but the level of hate dished out in the OP is over the top.
edit: also, we wouldn't be having this conversation if Jaedong simply beat Hwasin. two players advanced from group F and arguably the "weakest" Hwasin went 2-0. just like in Bisu's group, where the "weakest" savior went 2-0, funky things happen in progaming. as if a Flash Stork Jaedong Bisu group would've been better? two of those players would've been eliminated as well.
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On February 06 2009 00:37 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 00:33 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On February 06 2009 00:28 Plexa wrote:
I completely agree. Bisu's attitude in general makes me sick, blaming maps for losses, making excuses, making gay groups like this one, dodging stork/bisu/flash/jaedong UGH MAKSE ME SICK
I never thought i'd say this, but my hate for lecaf has to settle for 2nd play to bisu atm, indeed my respect for jaedong has grown so w/e jaedong fighting... You could look at it another way as well. Maybe he was ensuring that at least two fan favorites made it through ! I mean if those players were all in different groups it is certainly possible that they could all fail. I don't really believe that but I hope you at least see the point it raises. It's not like any group in a starleague is actually "easy". I think Bisu has displayed some amount of poor sportsmanship but this incident is not a prime example. Your making an unfair simplification. Of course there are no "easy" groups per say, but there are easier groups and harder groups. To deny the existence of easier and harder groups is to deny that there is a skill different between progamers. The fact remains that at face value that group seemed like the easiest group for bisu to advance out of. The fact that he didnt, and the reasons why he didnt, are up for debate.
I never denied the fact that some groups are harder than others, and I see no problem with this unavoidable fact of broodwar. It adds flavor.
And the fact that Bisu's group seemed the easiest and yet he still lost shows that people shouldn't make assumptions on bisu's character based of the groups. Especially when those assumptions(not only the ones made against bisu, but also the ones made by bisu himself) are proved totally wrong by the results.
In fact I could argue that bisu made the MSL better for a lot of people. Especially bisu haters like the op who instead of bitching about the groups he made should be reveling in the sweet sweet justice of him being thrown out of the "easy" group he made.
Or Hwasin fans. Hwasin fans are on Cloud 9 right now. Flash fans are very happy too. Flash's only real weaknesses recently(for the most part) have been jaedong and bisu. They are both out. And you KNOW savior fans are thrilled as well, watching savior crush his arch rival and cruise out of the group. It's all a matter of the players one supports.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Flash vs Leta TvT (according to the schedule, i may be wrong) will be his toughest challenge yet, Leta's TvT is tops right now
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Even if Flash manages to get by Leta, he will eventually have to play against Lux.
Flash still loses majority of the time against Lux even in practice games.
Not to mention, even when Lux gets down, Flash will eventually have to play Yarnc or Savior. And Flash said "Yarnc is better than Lux"
Shits going to be fucking tough.
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Ya thats true. So flash does have a very very difficult challenge still. But at least its a NEW one instead of a historical one
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On February 06 2009 00:58 MrHoon wrote:
Even if Flash manages to get by Leta, he will eventually have to play against Lux.
Flash still loses majority of the time against Lux even in practice games.
Not to mention, even when Lux gets down, Flash will eventually have to play Yarnc or Savior. And Flash said "Yarnc is better than Lux"
Shits going to be fucking tough.
Well Flash won't have to if Lux fails to advance
And ya I guess every game is a challenge lol.
But that brings me back to my original point. There is no such thing as an easy starleague. Everyone is rediculously good.
And real quick to avidstamper:
I only cussed at the rediculous comment he made about what Bisu did being the same as what Hwasin and Calm did when they clearly aren't. The other comments are simply to give rise to passionate debate which I feel I was quite successful at Not to mention the op set the tone with personal attacks against Bisu(even though he'll never read them).
The precedent part? I'm not sure at all that's really true. Or that it can even be proven because its too subjective . There have been a SHITLOAD of starleague group selections. Keep that in mind.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On February 06 2009 01:02 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 00:58 MrHoon wrote:
Even if Flash manages to get by Leta, he will eventually have to play against Lux.
Flash still loses majority of the time against Lux even in practice games.
Not to mention, even when Lux gets down, Flash will eventually have to play Yarnc or Savior. And Flash said "Yarnc is better than Lux"
Shits going to be fucking tough. Well Flash won't have to if Lux fails to advance And ya I guess every game is a challenge lol. But that brings me back to my original point. There is no such thing as an easy starleague. Everyone is rediculously good.
psst
tempest nada
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Tempest and Nada are damn good too A little less damn good, but damn good all the same.
psst
How dare you call Nada not damn good. Blasphemy! Go ahead and TLPD him real quick. I'll wait...ok there. How can you say anyone with that achievement list isn't damn good? Nada is a legend.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I meant tempest lol, I meant the Matchup was easy for nada haha
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I think it's funny that everyone is jumping on Bisu for doing something like this when only a few years ago everyone was mad at Midas for intentionally picking Savior and getting himself knocked out (basically the opposite of what Bisu did)
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Can't believe you kids are blaming Bisu that jd got knocked out...
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MrHoon you have whined about this in about 10000 posts (and reiterated your poiints in your cartoons), I think people know what you have to say by now 
Both MSL and OSL should seed people into groups/tournaments based on their Kespa rankings, problem solved and we avoid stupid shit like s-class players in offline qualifiers, or Flash/Jaedong in the same group in stead of in a semi.
I suggest you direct your energy towards such a solution in stead of blaming Bisu, because you won't be able to blame him the next MSL group selection.
People mention Tennis, how funny is that, its not going to happen there for obvious reasons. And what the hell do you think a player like Roddick would do to a group selection phase for instance? Consider that for a moment :p
Some sports take it too far, like Snooker where new players struggle perhaps a bit too hard.
Bisu just pointed out the obvious flaws in the system.
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On February 06 2009 01:09 MrHoon wrote:
I meant tempest lol, I meant the Matchup was easy for nada haha
Oh lol.
Well Nada is the favorite but I am not confident at all. Tempest has showed some poor games pvt but he has also showed some monster ones. Nada better win=/
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On February 06 2009 01:09 Qatol wrote:
I think it's funny that everyone is jumping on Bisu for doing something like this when only a few years ago everyone was mad at Midas for intentionally picking Savior and getting himself knocked out (basically the opposite of what Bisu did)
Lol so true.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
eh you do have a point, I really have nothing against Bisu but I was just totally bummed out from what happened to the groups.
I really, really wanted that magma vs stork.
I totally fucking wanted it.
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I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and pose the following question:
If Bisu had stayed in the group of death and beaten Jaedong and Flash, what would people say then?
One can argue that Jaedong is better than Savior and therefore he "would have" beaten Bisu. But then again one can also argue that Jaedong is better than Hwasin and firebathero, that Bisu is better than Savior, and so forth.
I see this from another point of view. I think that, rather than hating Bisu for making the group of death, I think Bisu screwed himself over by putting himself with "lesser players," who all had something to prove and wanted to show everyone that they could destroy one of the best Protoss players of all time.
Let's not forget that Bisu recently knocked Flash out of GOMTV, or that he schooled FBH in the last MSL.
Bisu in many ways is subject to the "Boxer effect." People try ESPECIALLY hard when playing Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, and other high ranked players because they want to prove something to the progaming scene. They want to be seen as a threat, and what better way to do it than by taking out the most respected players of the scene?
Bisu got knocked out by none other than Savior, the player who many people consider went INTO a slump BECAUSE of Bisu. And now that Savior has beaten Bisu, I think it will give Savior the confidence he needs to carry himself through in 2009.
I actually think Bisu (unintentionally) did a huge favor to Savior fans. Savior himself admits that he hates facing FBH, and if he had been stuck with FBH he might've just been schooled right then and there. Especially given the mental discomfort that Savior feels when facing FBH.
To be honest, with the way things are now, I am keeping my fingers crossed for a Nada v. Savior MSL finals =)
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On February 06 2009 00:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
i don't know how much a fraternity the progamers are and how much respect top players give to the group selection, but to me trying to eliminate your foes by putting them in hard groups is a right you've earned from winning (or placing high) in the previous MSL. that's your privilege. what's so bad about bisu exercising his rights? i mean, sure it might look lame, but it's a sport, and bad matchups always happen early in playoff brackets because of seeding or other circumstances. it's just a fact of sports. are we supposed to expect a player who is looking out for his own self interest to simply be nice? sure, it doesn't make Bisu a nice guy but the level of hate dished out in the OP is over the top.
edit: also, we wouldn't be having this conversation if Jaedong simply beat Hwasin. two players advanced from group F and arguably the "weakest" Hwasin went 2-0. just like in Bisu's group, where the "weakest" savior went 2-0, funky things happen in progaming. as if a Flash Stork Jaedong Bisu group would've been better? two of those players would've been eliminated as well.
this is a good post and says a lot of what i wanted to.
i'd like to think i'm one of the few rational bisu fans, and strictly as a fan i can understand being annoyed or mad at bisu for how things turned out. but this response is so out of control. bringing honor or manner or responsibility into this? you guys of all should have remembered: play to win.
bisu has a long history of both playing in and picking strong groups, i think he's earned the right to build his group after he wins a league. i dunno, he probably had delusions of winning both leagues, and knowing it'd be extremely difficult even with his overinflated ego he figured he'd do what he could to make the msl easier.
and plexa, what was your issue with the tears of the moon quote? it's the same as every single bisu quote ever: what he honestly thinks, blunt, and a bit uncouth. it's a shit map, and he said as much
i really think most if this hate is just because bisu is considered the dominant player of this instant. there's absolutely nothing different about him - only your perception of him.
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On February 06 2009 00:48 MrHoon wrote:
And no Pioneer, he didn't bitch about Harmony. He didn't even mention harmony.
He bitched about other maps.
I thought he had said something about it being impossible to wall properly on harmony?
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
no no, thats tears of the moon
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On February 06 2009 01:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:
I actually think Bisu (unintentionally) did a huge favor to Savior fans. Savior himself admits that he hates facing FBH, and if he had been stuck with FBH he might've just been schooled right then and there. Especially given the mental discomfort that Savior feels when facing FBH.
i think switching jaedong and savior before taking him shows bisu had his interests in mind at least a little bit, as it's a pretty big "fuck you" to fbh
and i mean, at the selection people were upset with bisu for taking savior, but even during the show savior mentioned how hard he would practice if bisu decided to pick him - i doubt it was a surprise, and i'd suspect it was probably planned.
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Perfectly reasonable course of action from Bisu. This is no more Bisu's fault in clever selection than Jaedong's fault losing to Hwasin. If you need to vent some unholy hatred against a player I suggest you find better causes.
On February 06 2009 01:09 Qatol wrote:
I think it's funny that everyone is jumping on Bisu for doing something like this when only a few years ago everyone was mad at Midas for intentionally picking Savior and getting himself knocked out (basically the opposite of what Bisu did)
Ahahaha thanks for reminding me Midas <3
Midas please make a comeback soon I miss your silly antics. And if you do you have to revive CEREMONIES!!
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Braavos36375 Posts
On February 06 2009 01:09 Qatol wrote:
I think it's funny that everyone is jumping on Bisu for doing something like this when only a few years ago everyone was mad at Midas for intentionally picking Savior and getting himself knocked out (basically the opposite of what Bisu did)
i hated midas' choice then and i think Bisu did the right thing here. my opinion is at least consistent 
i think especially because progaming is so cutthroat and close at the top and difficult to qualify for these major leagues, its critical players value seeds. they are so, so precious, as a seed gives you a really good opportunity to win another seed (you sometimes get to arrange groups, you don't have to play survivor, etc).
thus, it makes sense for progamers, who all are on the brink of slump / elimination at all times (just look at all the OSL winners slumps, ugh) to do everything possible for self preservation. midas did something really stupid in Shinhan3 and it cost him his entire career. he never recovered from that. if he picked someone other than Savior, he's probably seeded into the next OSL. he was the second strongest player in that field.
as for Bisu here, he made the right choice even if he was eliminated. he put 3 people into his group that were "weak" and he had his "strongest" matchup. you can't jump on him because he's doing what's best for his career, and we all know how fragile these careers can be. ultimately Bisu should be looking out for Bisu, not aiming to please some fans of stork vs magma or whatever match that will be forgotten in 2 months anyway. so he made it tough for Jaedong and Flash, big deal? those two had their shot in Club Day and blew it. such is the world of progaming, big names get bumped out early in tournaments. be thankful that savior, leta, flash, stork, etc. are through to the Ro16. we can't have everything.
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So basicaly what i read here is that you blame Bisu for taking care of his own ass instead of yours..
Comeon, grow up...
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United States7488 Posts
If you were actually disappointed about the group... you would have made this blog before the group was played. So don't try to come off that you're so angry about the group now, you're really just mad at the results at this point. The best two players got out of the group, which aren't always going to be who you think the best two players are.
Flash got booted from the Round of 32 in Club Day and Jaedong didn't make it to the round of 8 either. Neither of them won seeds for themselves. Regardless of whether Bisu bitches about a lot of things or not, you're basically picking on him for something that he isn't being bitchy about because it doesn't suit you.
As far as publicity goes... I bet a ton of people tuned in to watch Group F. There is no guarantee that any of the big name players meet later on in the tournament anyway. In fact, in this MSL format, putting two good players in the same group actually increases their chance of playing a best of five later as only two groups feed into any given quarterfinals match.
I don't particularly like Bisu, but he did the right thing for himself in making groups. If other players have a problem with it, then they should try winning to keep it from happening.
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You guys (Bisu-supporters) bring out good points, and I guess the fact that Hwasin beat JD did play a part into it. Though Hwasin had more time to prepare, that is still no excuse for what happened.
I never really hated Bisu before, but now I do (entirely my opinion).
FU Bisu 
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9070 Posts
Maybe Jd and Flash should try a little harder and get in better position next season so that their fate doesnt depend on someone like Bisu. Grow up already, or simply admit you wont like bisu no matter what. The comments about bisu dodging stork/jd/flash are nothing but pathetic. 1st seed is earned, you dont get it by luck, so being in this position you are completely free to do whatever you want. maybe you have sympathy for flash/jd but bisu doenst, he is professional in what he does and his efforts to make the tournament easier for him are completely understandable.
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On February 06 2009 03:08 disciple wrote:
Maybe Jd and Flash should try a little harder and get in better position next season so that their fate doesnt depend on someone like Bisu. Grow up already, or simply admit you wont like bisu no matter what. The comments about bisu dodging stork/jd/flash are nothing but pathetic. 1st seed is earned, you dont get it by luck, so being in this position you are completely free to do whatever you want. maybe you have sympathy for flash/jd but bisu doenst, he is professional in what he does and his efforts to make the tournament easier for him are completely understandable.
"Grow up already, or simply admit you wont like bisu no matter what. "
Because I'm supposed to like Bisu for playing a huge role in knocking out my favorite player when he didnt' have to + complaining about maps?
"The comments about bisu dodging stork/jd/flash are nothing but pathetic. 1st seed is earned, you dont get it by luck, so being in this position you are completely free to do whatever you want."
I never made any dodging comments and obvious he can do whatever he wants, that's why I'm displeased with his actions, ex. 2 MSLs ago, JD chose to be in the group with Hwasin/Bisu. So not every pro-gamer goes with the win above anything attitude and I am entitled to my opinion to like those pro-gamers with those attitudes less.
"Maybe Jd and Flash should try a little harder and get in better position next season so that their fate doesnt depend on someone like Bisu. "
This seems like a flamebait, pro-gamers obviously work their butts off for these games.
"he is professional in what he does and his efforts to make the tournament easier for him are completely understandable. "
Just because he is understandable/professional doesn't mean I have to like him. His efforts to make the tournament easier for him goes beyond most of the top seed's choices in the recent MSLs, thus, I don't like him.
I assumed your post was directed at me.
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On February 05 2009 23:02 minus_human wrote:
sAviOr > Bisu in this MSL. It happened once, it will happen again
Truth.
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9070 Posts
I assumed your post was directed at me.
It wasnt, but thanks for your points anyway. the stork/jd/flash dodging part is referring to a post from page 2, you have nothing to do with it Well I suppose just like the actors you like one more than everybody else. I'm neutral to flash, but I really dont like Jaedong. No matter how deep I search for the reason and explaining it with his playstyle or even the game vs boxer on katrina, the fact is I dont like the guy for no real reason. Not that he is not worth my hate from my point of view, but I'm just irrational and I wont like anything he does no matter how good, skilled and talented player he is. All I want to say is that I do understand all your feelings about the MSL group selection. If Jd/flash did the same to bisu/boxer/casy my reaction would've been quite similar, thou I think you are all overreacting a tiny bit.
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After these several months of Hwasin dropping games to players and losing ace matches, consequently costing STX Soul the match, I feel vindicated as a fan. I hope that Hwasin doesn't burn out
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Braavos36375 Posts
On February 06 2009 03:31 ghostWriter wrote:
After these several months of Hwasin dropping games to players and losing ace matches, consequently costing STX Soul the match, I feel vindicated as a fan. I hope that Hwasin doesn't burn out
he's certainly not spending his energy on proleague, that's for sure
-_-
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On February 06 2009 01:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and pose the following question:
If Bisu had stayed in the group of death and beaten Jaedong and Flash, what would people say then?)
Is this correct? I thought Bisu was in the group with jaedong magma and zero, and then switched jaedong with savior?
Anyway, this group selection thing needs to go. Whether you think it's fair or not, it's just bullshit that we had to see 2 of the people in group F get knocked out in the ro32. Jaedong vs Flash should be playing in the finals or ro4, not in the final match of a ro32 group. Just look at group G, Nada frozean ruby and canata. Not a single one of those 4 people should be qualifying over anyone in group F.
KESPA either needs to get rid of this selection process or just have the ability to switch around some groups if they are clearly stacked.
As a point of reference, the average KESPA rank in group F was 9.75. The average KESPA rank in group G was 40.
In the end all it really does is deny us seeing great matches when they are supposed to happen. It's just sad to see JD and Flash playing a Bo1 to decide who gets eliminated from the MSL.
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On February 06 2009 01:57 MrHoon wrote:
no no, thats tears of the moon
My bad, I knew it was one of those 2.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 06 2009 03:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Because I'm supposed to like Bisu for playing a huge role in knocking out my favorite player when he didnt' have to + complaining about maps?
You can hate him all you want, but calling it bad sportsmanship or against the spirit of the game aren't really appropriate to the situation.
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On February 06 2009 00:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Why is that not cool? SOMEONES going to have to go into an uncomfortable group. You act like jaedong and flash have some holy aura that someone makes them special when being placed in groups? W. T. F.
You expect bisu to weigh every possibility of fairness to every player before deciding whats best for himself? THE GROUP SELECTION IS DESIGNED TO GIVE ADVANTAGE TO THE PREVIOUS SEASONS WINNER. Bisu took that advantage of that as he should.
Sure it would be awesome to have jaedong and flash both still in it but in every starleague a great player goes out early. Get over it.
Do you ever debate calmly? Every post I've seen from you is always lots of caps and yelling and calling people stupid
@Avid
THE BEST SEED POSSIBLE? LMAO. He didn't even make it out of the round of 32. The champion picked a group he couldnt get out of! What does that tell you about the caliber of players that make it starleagues. EVERY player in a starleague is a fantastic player and capable of beating any other player if the game goes their way.
Or did you forget that Bisu didnt even advance?
Kinda makes your point look pretty silly doesn't it.
Clearly he didn't think he would lose, and everyone was very surprised.
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United States7488 Posts
Also anyone making the arguement that Flash didn't want a group of death is retarded... in the OSL he specifically stated he would have picked Jaedong next if Bisu picked him for Group A, creating one of the most intense group of deaths ever... way more death-y than MSL's Group F.
Fact is that great players will overcome adversity when they are faced with it anyway. Two people in Group F didn't overcome their adversities. Excuses are just that... excuses. That applies to all players... Bisu, Flash, Jaedong, Forgg... anyone!
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On February 06 2009 05:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 03:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Because I'm supposed to like Bisu for playing a huge role in knocking out my favorite player when he didnt' have to + complaining about maps? You can hate him all you want, but calling it bad sportsmanship or against the spirit of the game aren't really appropriate to the situation.
That's perfect because I didn't.
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People arguing that Jaedong shouldve beaten Hwasin or Flash are missing the point. Which is Jaedong and Flash shouldn't of been in the same group in the first place, since they are ranked #2 and #4 respectively.
It just shows that the system is flawed. If you look at any major spoerting event in the world, tennis, world cup, champions league, they all have seeding systems to prevent this from happening.
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yeah i definitely do not like bisu...
these msl groups have been ridiculous, I can only hope that you get destroyed in the OSL and Jangbi spanks your spoiled ass in GOM
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Braavos36375 Posts
On February 06 2009 10:30 Highways wrote:
People arguing that Jaedong shouldve beaten Hwasin or Flash are missing the point. Which is Jaedong and Flash shouldn't of been in the same group in the first place, since they are ranked #2 and #4 respectively.
It just shows that the system is flawed. If you look at any major spoerting event in the world, tennis, world cup, champions league, they all have seeding systems to prevent this from happening.
jaedong and flash would not have been #2 and #4 based on previous finishes in the MSL, they were out in the ro16 and ro32 respectively, so it definitely could have happened
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Am I the only one who likes this system? It rewards the winner of the previous season... Doesn't that make sense...?
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lol Yeah, the MSL has a system where people with seeds get to decide groups. And no one cares, and people actually enjoy the system for a while.
And then, Jaedong gets knocked out of the MSL Ro32. Jaedong-fans go nuts, the system shouldn't exist, Flash and Jaedong should be in the same group, Bisu is the devil, wahhh wahh wahhh.
Starleagues often get groups of Death. Groups of death result in good players getting knocked out early. It happens. People need to deal with it.
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Nvm, there's no point in posting this.
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CA10828 Posts
On February 06 2009 10:30 Highways wrote:
People arguing that Jaedong shouldve beaten Hwasin or Flash are missing the point. Which is Jaedong and Flash shouldn't of been in the same group in the first place, since they are ranked #2 and #4 respectively.
It just shows that the system is flawed. If you look at any major spoerting event in the world, tennis, world cup, champions league, they all have seeding systems to prevent this from happening.
you are missing the point of the MSL selection ceremony.
MSL cares about the results in their previous tournament much much more than kespa ranking.
they ensure that the top 8 finishers from last season will NOT be in the same group.
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EPT
