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Starcraft Game Theory

Blogs > motbob
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motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-15 21:42:17
January 15 2009 21:18 GMT
#1
I'm taking ECO 277 (game theory), and the end of semester project is a presentation of a real-world "game" of our choice that can be translated into a theoretical, simple strategy game. I was thinking about choosing professional Starcraft. One aspect of my presentation could be who to send out in proleague. Another could be the choosing of build orders. Do you guys have any thoughts of suggestions?

*
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Aesop
Profile Joined October 2007
Hungary11305 Posts
January 15 2009 21:39 GMT
#2
I do not quite get the meanings of "real-world "game"" and "strategy game" in this context.

If I see it correctly, you want to talk about strategy around starcraft, that isn't actually part of the game itself?

If so, you could go deep into psychology. Choose a "shocker" strategy in a first set of Bo5/Bo3, to set the mind for the rest of it, as July did to Best in the OSL finals, or as by.great did against Bisu with the aid of July (all-in first game to make him cautious in the macro game 2).
ModeratorNon veritas sed auctoritas facit legem. | Liquipedia: Don't ask me, I'm retired.
Abydos1
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States832 Posts
January 15 2009 21:45 GMT
#3
I think your best bet would be to go with choosing build orders/strategy for a bo5/bo3 series as Aesop said.
"...perhaps the greatest joy possible in Starcraft, being accused of being a maphacker" - Day[9]
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-15 21:53:26
January 15 2009 21:48 GMT
#4
well im not sure how build order would fall under game theory. you're talking about things like the prisoner's dilemma and such right.

perhaps one aspect of pro gaming that could work is who a coach picks for Ace matches or for the upcoming Winner's League. For example:

1.) The map is andromeda
2.) The following are winning percentages for the map and the top players for each team:

Winning percentages

Team A
B Zerg B Terran B Protoss
A Zerg 50 75 25 wants zvt, avoid zvp
A Terran 60 40 80 wants tvp and tvz, avoid tvt
A Protoss25 40 40 wants to avoid pvz, pvt, pvp

Team B
A Zerg A Terran A Protoss
B Zerg 50 40 75 wants zvp, avoid zvt
B Terran 25 60 60 wamts tvt amd tvp, avoid tvz
B Protoss 75 20 60 wants pvz, pvp, avoid pvt

based on these percentages, coach A picks ________ and coach b picks ____________

something like that

edit: actually, i could see it for BO now too. for example, regarding 14cc

player 1 believes if he goes 14 cc, he will have an advantage if the counterpart T goes siege expand or facport, and that they will be tied if the opponent goes 14 cc as well. However, if the opponent goes BBS or fast academy --> MnM + SCV all in, then player 1 believes he will lose.

player 2 believes he will lose with all build orders unless he uses BBS.

so the question is, will player 1 use 14cc?
manner
ondik
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Czech Republic2908 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-16 00:30:18
January 16 2009 00:29 GMT
#5
I've taken game theory lectures in my economics studies earlier and I'm not sure how is it attached to starcraft. Only thing I can think of is mind games. Rush vs fast exp, what could be ilustrated as prisoners dilema, but it really can't be.
Bisu. The one and only. // Save the cheerreaver, save the world (of SC2)
ondik
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Czech Republic2908 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-16 00:36:50
January 16 2009 00:36 GMT
#6
I mean.. in prisoners dilema if you finch you are better of in both other prisoner's reactions. Whereas in, as d_so mentinoed, PvT game it's not that clear. There is no pure strategy equilibrium, there may be mixed strategy equilibria, though i'm not sure how far did u go with GT, if further than bayesian games, imperfect information and so..
Bisu. The one and only. // Save the cheerreaver, save the world (of SC2)
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-16 00:58:21
January 16 2009 00:57 GMT
#7
ugh how do you post spreadsheets
manner
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
January 16 2009 01:37 GMT
#8
Alternatively, you could talk about sending out players in Proleague. Players can be 1 match-up champions, making them assets in situations when certain players are going to be sent out on map X.

Flash versus Hero on Proleague, watch a lot of SKT1 games. They get sniped like every time; Bisu usually gets a solid PvP'er or a PvT'er and almost never a PvZ; it seems that Best always gets put out PvZ these days. But I think you'd really want Best PvZ'ing instead of Bisu right now. OGN made a spectacular run at Proleague playoffs last year through solid Ace snipes and good match-up making.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
Abydos1
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States832 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-16 03:42:22
January 16 2009 03:42 GMT
#9
On January 16 2009 09:36 ondik wrote:
I mean.. in prisoners dilema if you finch you are better of in both other prisoner's reactions. Whereas in, as d_so mentinoed, PvT game it's not that clear. There is no pure strategy equilibrium, there may be mixed strategy equilibria, though i'm not sure how far did u go with GT, if further than bayesian games, imperfect information and so..


Part of the problem is that your strategy is based on how current opponents would be playing it, this defines the current meta game. For example mech is seeing a lot of use lately TvZ, if zerg all the sudden come up with a good counter it is going to see a lot of use leading to the decline of mech. FE protoss is just better in the current macro heavy meta game so its used almost exclusively.

You could examine coach's strategies for the all-kill winners proleague this round. For example, is it better to start off with a solid mid level player or an S-Class programmer who might be vulnerable to a snipe because of a poor match-up.
"...perhaps the greatest joy possible in Starcraft, being accused of being a maphacker" - Day[9]
t_co
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States702 Posts
January 16 2009 08:21 GMT
#10
On January 16 2009 12:42 Abydos1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2009 09:36 ondik wrote:
I mean.. in prisoners dilema if you finch you are better of in both other prisoner's reactions. Whereas in, as d_so mentinoed, PvT game it's not that clear. There is no pure strategy equilibrium, there may be mixed strategy equilibria, though i'm not sure how far did u go with GT, if further than bayesian games, imperfect information and so..


Part of the problem is that your strategy is based on how current opponents would be playing it, this defines the current meta game. For example mech is seeing a lot of use lately TvZ, if zerg all the sudden come up with a good counter it is going to see a lot of use leading to the decline of mech. FE protoss is just better in the current macro heavy meta game so its used almost exclusively.

You could examine coach's strategies for the all-kill winners proleague this round. For example, is it better to start off with a solid mid level player or an S-Class programmer who might be vulnerable to a snipe because of a poor match-up.


It seems that PvT and even mirror matchups with non-mirror BOs could be modeled by a decision tree which has set decision points at certain timings. E.g. in PvT terran faces a decision after FE, Protoss faces a decision after 2gates are up, etc etc

Each decision tree could have certain payoffs at certain timings (e.g. obviously expansion timings but also tech payoffs)

So you could actually make it quite complex, nonlinear (as decisions can loop) and also nondiscrete (because you could split the decisions down as far as you wanted to).
"Look, don't congratulate us when we buy a company, congratulate us when we sell it. Because any fool can overpay and buy a company, so long as there is money to buy it." --Henry Kravis
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
January 16 2009 17:06 GMT
#11
If you had a lot of time, you could really do a wicked project on this. If you did it with build orders, it would be awesome because you could include uncertainty. But it could easily become a very hard game to draw as there are so many builds and counters.

I'm interested to see where you go with this. Keep us up to date. Those of us who have taken game theory can answer any specific questions and give advice, but mostly I wanna see what you do with this.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
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