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United States24612 Posts
Poll: Slavery? (Vote): Good (Vote): Bad (Vote): Indifferent/Other
I was reading through some random news articles and came across this: (from http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081228/ap_on_re_af/the_slave_next_door )
Child maid trafficking spreads from Africa to US + Show Spoiler +
IRVINE, Calif. – Late at night, the neighbors saw a little girl at the kitchen sink of the house next door.
They watched through their window as the child rinsed plates under the open faucet. She wasn't much taller than the counter and the soapy water swallowed her slender arms. To put the dishes away, she climbed on a chair.
But she was not the daughter of the couple next door doing chores. She was their maid.
Shyima was 10 when a wealthy Egyptian couple brought her from a poor village in northern Egypt to work in their California home. She awoke before dawn and often worked past midnight to iron their clothes, mop the marble floors and dust the family's crystal. She earned $45 a month working up to 20 hours a day. She had no breaks during the day and no days off.
The trafficking of children for domestic labor in the U.S. is an extension of an illegal but common practice in Africa. Families in remote villages send their daughters to work in cities for extra money and the opportunity to escape a dead-end life. Some girls work for free on the understanding that they will at least be better fed in the home of their employer.
The custom has led to the spread of trafficking, as well-to-do Africans accustomed to employing children immigrate to the U.S. Around one-third of the estimated 10,000 forced laborers in the United States are servants trapped behind the curtains of suburban homes, according to a study by the National Human Rights Center at the University of California at Berkeley and Free the Slaves, a nonprofit group. No one can say how many are children, especially since their work can so easily be masked as chores.
Once behind the walls of gated communities like this one, these children never go to school. Unbeknownst to their neighbors, they live as modern-day slaves, just like Shyima, whose story is pieced together through court records, police transcripts and interviews.
"I'd look down and see her at 10, 11 — even 12 — at night," said Shyima's neighbor at the time, Tina Font. "She'd be doing the dishes. We didn't put two and two together."
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Shyima cried when she found out she was going to America in 2000. Her father, a bricklayer, had fallen ill a few years earlier, so her mother found a maid recruiter, signed a contract effectively leasing her daughter to the couple for 10 years and told Shyima to be strong.
For a year, Shyima, 9, worked in the Cairo apartment owned by Amal Motelib and Nasser Ibrahim. Every month, Shyima's mother came to pick up her salary.
Tens of thousands of children in Africa, some as young as 3, are recruited every year to work as domestic servants. They are on call 24 hours a day and are often beaten if they make a mistake. Children are in demand because they earn less than adults and are less likely to complain. In just one city — Casablanca — a 2001 survey by the Moroccan government found more than 15,000 girls under 15 working as maids.
The U.S. State Department found that over the past year, children have been trafficked to work as servants in at least 33 of Africa's 53 countries. Children from at least 10 African countries were sent as maids to the U.S. and Europe. But the problem is so well hidden that authorities — including the U.N., Interpol and the State Department — have no idea how many child maids now work in the West.
"In most homes, these girls are not allowed to use so much as the same spoon as the rest of the family," said Hany Helal, the Cairo-based director of the Egyptian Organization for Child Rights.
By the time the Ibrahims decided to leave, Shyima's family had taken several loans from them for medical bills. The Ibrahims said they could only be repaid by sending Shyima to work for them in the U.S. A friend posed as her father, and the U.S. embassy in Cairo issued her a six-month tourist visa.
She arrived at Los Angeles International Airport on Aug. 3, 2000, according to court documents. The family brought her back to their spacious five-bedroom, two-story home, decorated in the style of a Tuscan villa with a fountain of two angels spouting water through a conch. She was told to sleep in the garage.
It had no windows and was neither heated nor air-conditioned. Soon after she arrived, the garage's only light bulb went out. The Ibrahims didn't replace it. From then on, Shyima lived in the dark.
She was told to call them Madame Amal and Hajj Nasser, terms of respect. They called her "shaghala," or servant. Their five children called her "stupid."
While the family slept, she ironed the school outfits of the Ibrahims' 5-year-old twin sons. She woke them, combed their hair, dressed them and made them breakfast. Then she ironed clothes and fixed breakfast for the three girls, including Heba, who at 10 was the same age as the family's servant.
Neither Ibrahim nor his wife worked, and they slept late. When they awoke, they yelled for her to make tea.
While they ate breakfast watching TV, she cleaned the palatial house. She vacuumed each bedroom, made the beds, dusted the shelves, wiped the windows, washed the dishes and did the laundry.
Her employers were not satisfied, she said. "Nothing was ever clean enough for her. She would come in and say, 'This is dirty,' or 'You didn't do this right,' or 'You ruined the food,'" said Shyima.
She started wetting her bed. Her sheets stank. So did her oversized T-shirt and the other hand-me-downs she wore.
While doing the family's laundry, she slipped her own clothes into the load. Madame slapped her. "She told me my clothes were dirtier than theirs. That I wasn't allowed to clean mine there," she said.
She washed her clothes in a bucket in the garage. She hung them to dry outside, next to the trash cans.
When the couple went out, she waited until she heard the car pull away and then she sat down. She sat with her back straight because she was afraid her clothes would dirty the upholstery.
It never occurred to her to run away.
"I thought this was normal," she said.
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If you could fly the garage where Shyima slept 7,000 miles to the sandy alleyway where her Egyptian family now lives, it would pass for the best home in the neighborhood.
The garage's walls are made of concrete instead of hand-patted bricks. Its roof doesn't leak. Its door shuts all the way. Shyima's mother and her 10 brothers and sisters live in a two-bedroom house with uneven walls and a flaking ceiling. None of them have ever had a bed to themselves, much less a whole room. At night, bodies cover the sagging couches.
Shown a snapshot of the windowless garage, Shyima's mother in the coastal town of Agami made a clucking sound of approval.
"It's much cleaner than where many people here sleep," said Helal, the child rights advocate. He explains that Shyima's treatment in the Ibrahim home is considered normal — even good — by Egyptian standards.
Even though many child maids are physically abused, child labor is rarely prosecuted because the work isn't considered strenuous. Many employers even see themselves as benefactors.
"There is a sense that children should work to help their family, but also that they are being given an opportunity," said Mark Lagon, the director of the U.S. State Department's Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons.
That's especially the case for well-off families who transport their child servants to Western countries.
In 2006, a U.S. district court in Michigan sentenced a Cameroonian man to 17 years in prison for bringing a 14-year-old girl from his country to work as his unpaid maid. That same year, a Moroccan couple was sentenced to home confinement for forcing their 12-year-old Moroccan niece to work grueling hours caring for their baby.
In Germantown, Md., a Nigerian couple used their daughter's passport to bring in a 14-year-old Nigerian girl as their maid. She worked for them for five years before escaping in 2001. In Germany, France, the Netherlands and England, African immigrants have been arrested for forcing children from their home countries to work as their servants.
In several of these cases, the employers argued that they took the children with the parents' permission. The Cameroonian girl's mother flew to Detroit to testify in court against her daughter, saying the girl was ungrateful for the good life her employers had provided her.
Shyima's mother, Salwa Mahmoud, said her father believed she would have better opportunities in America.
"I didn't want her to travel but our family's condition dictated that she had to go," explained Mahmoud, a squat, round-faced woman with calloused hands and feet. She is missing two front teeth because she couldn't afford a dentist.
"If she had stayed here in Egypt, she would have been ordinary," said Awatef, Shyima's older sister. "Just like us."
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On April 3, 2002, an anonymous caller phoned the California Department of Social Services to report that a young girl was living inside the garage of 28 Pacific Grove.
A few days later, Nasser Ibrahim opened the door to a detective from the Irvine Police Department. Asked if any children lived there beside his own, he first said no, then yes — "a distant relative." He said he had "not yet" enrolled her in school. She did "chores — just like the other kids," according to the police transcript.
Shyima was upstairs cleaning when Ibrahim came to get her. "He told me that I was not allowed to say anything," said Shyima. "That if I said anything I would never see my parents again."
When police searched the house, they turned up several home videos showing Shyima at work. They seized the contract signed by Shyima's illiterate parents.
Asked by police if anyone other than his immediate family lived in the house, Eid, one of the twins, said: "Hummm ... Yeah ... Her name is Shyima," according to the transcript. "She uh ... She works — she works for us at the house, like, she cleans up the dishes and stuff like that."
Twelve-year-old Heba got flustered: "Yeah. She's uh — my — uh — How do I say this? Uh ... My dad's ... Oh, wait, like ... She's like my cousin, but — She's my dad's daughter's friend. Oops! The other way. Okay, I'm confused."
Heba eventually admitted that Shyima had lived with the family for three years in Egypt and in California.
The police put Shyima in a squad car. They noted her hands were red and caked with dead, hard-looking skin.
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For months Shyima lied to investigators, saying what the Ibrahims had told her to say.
She went without sleep for days at a stretch. She was put on four different types of medication. She moved from foster home to foster home. Her mood swings alarmed her guardians. In school for the first time, she struggled to learn to read.
Investigators arranged for her to speak to her parents. She told them she felt like a "nobody" working for the Ibrahims and wanted to come home. Her father yelled at her.
"They kept telling me that they're good people," Shyima recounted in a recent interview. "That it's my fault. That because of what I did my mom was going to have a heart attack."
Three years ago, she broke off contact with her family. Since then she has refused to speak Arabic. She can no longer communicate in her mother tongue.
During the 2006 trial, the Ibrahims described Shyima as part of their family. They included proof of a trip she took with the family to Disneyland. Shyima's lawyer pointed out that the 10-year-old wasn't allowed on the rides — she was there to carry the bags.
The couple's lawyers collected photographs of the home where Shyima grew up, including close-ups of the feces-stained squat toilet and of Shyima's sisters washing clothes in a bucket.
In her final plea, Madame Amal told the judge it would be unfair to separate her from her children. Enraged, Shyima, then 17, told the court she hadn't seen her family in years.
"Where was their loving when it came to me? Wasn't I a human being too? I felt like I was nothing when I was with them," she sobbed.
The couple pleaded guilty to all charges, including forced labor and slavery. They were ordered to pay $76,000, the amount Shyima would have earned at the minimum wage. The sentence: Three years in federal prison for Ibrahim, 22 months for his wife, and then deportation for both. Their lawyers declined to comment for this story.
"I don't think that there is any other term you could use than modern-day slavery," said Bob Schoch, the special agent in charge for Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Los Angeles, in describing Shyima's situation.
Shyima was adopted last year by Chuck and Jenny Hall of Beaumont, Calif. The family lives near Disneyland, where they have taken her a half-dozen times. She graduated from high school this summer after retaking her exit exam and hopes to become a police officer.
Shyima, now 19, has a list of assigned chores. She wears purple eyeshadow, has a boyfriend and frequently updates her profile on MySpace. Her hands are neatly manicured.
But in her closet, she keeps a box of pictures of her parents and her brothers and sisters. "I don't look at them because it makes me cry," she said. "How could they? They're my parents."
When her father died last year, her family had no way of reaching her.
___
EPILOGUE: On a recent afternoon in Cairo, Madame Amal walked into the lobby of her apartment complex wearing designer sunglasses and a chic scarf.
After nearly two years in a U.S. prison cell, she's living once more in the spacious apartment where Shyima first worked as her maid. The apartment is adorned in the style of a Louis XIV palace, with ornately carved settees, gold-leaf vases and life-sized portraits of her and her husband.
She did not agree to be interviewed for this story.
Before the door closed behind her, a little girl slipped in carrying grocery bags. She wore a shabby T-shirt. Her small feet slapped the floor in loose flip-flops. Her eyes were trained on the ground.
She looked to be around 9 years old.
___
EDITOR'S NOTE — This story is based on interviews in Los Angeles, Irvine and Beaumont, Calif., and in Cairo and Agami, Egypt, in September and October. In addition to interviews with Shyima, her mother and nine of her brothers and sisters, the AP also interviewed her neighbors in Irvine, law enforcement officials and the lawyer who prosecuted her case. Quotes and scenes were observed by the reporter or described by Shyima and confirmed in police transcripts and court records.
Honestly, when I read an article like this (if you didn't read it all just get through the first couple of paragraphs for the idea) my first reaction is to shrug and move on. Yes, it's a terrible thing. No, there's really nothing I'm going to do about it other than obviously not hire children under circumstances like that (I'd pretty much just rule out any illegal practice).
This would have been the end of the minor affair, had I not suddenly remembered something that happened in 2007: (from http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bzslav0516,0,7123649.story )
LI housekeepers held as slaves, tortured + Show Spoiler +
A multimillionaire Muttontown couple, who run an international business distributing perfume, were arrested Tuesday by federal agents on charges of keeping two Indonesian women as slaves in their posh Long Island home for the last several years.
The couple, Varsha Mahender Sabhnani, 45, and her husband, Mahender Murlidhar Sabhnani, 51, of 205 Coachman Place East, were accused of inflicting a catalog of tortures on one of the Indonesian women, while threatening to have the other one's family arrested in Indonesia if she did not obey orders, according to officials. The women had been hired as housekeepers.
The Sabhnanis were arraigned in U.S. District Court in Central Islip on charges under a federal anti-slavery statute of obtaining "the labor and services of another person by use of threats of serious physical harm to and physical restraint against that person."
"No one would ever think that human beings were being brought into the United States and held for slave labor, and beaten, and tortured in a beautiful mansion right here in one of the most exclusive neighborhoods on Long Island," said federal prosecutor Demetri Jones, who is prosecuting the case along with Assistant U.S. Attorney Mark Lesko.
Attorneys for the Sabhnanis say their clients are innocent.
One of the two Indonesian women was beaten by Varsha Sabhnani with a broomstick, cut behind the ears with a knife, burnt with scalding water, made to walk up and down stairs as much as 150 times in a row, and, at one point, was forced to eat "25 extremely hot chili peppers," according to Jones and Lesko. The prosecutors submitted pictures showing what they said were the bruises and cuts inflicted on one of the women.
The reasons for the tortures included Varsha Sabhnani being unable to find an item of clothing or believing that the poorly fed women were stealing food, the prosecutors said. Her husband allowed the torture to go on and benefited from the household services of the women, according to Lesko.
The women were identified in court papers only as Samirah and Nona. Authorities became involved after Samirah, 51, was found wandering near a Dunkin' Donuts at 52 W. Jericho Tpke., Syosset, by employees early Mother's Day morning, court papers said. She was wearing pants and a towel draped around her shoulders, the papers said.
She later was questioned by agents working on the Federal Long Island Regional Human Trafficking Task Force with the aid of an Indonesian interpreter, the court papers said.
Varsha Sabhnani's attorney, Charles Ross of Manhattan, argued that his client should be released on bail because the case amounted only to a claim of assault based on the word of the two Indonesian women.
Mahender Murlidhar Sabhnani's attorney, Alexandra Tseitlin of Manhattan, asked that he be released on bail, saying her client had not been accused of torturing either of the women.
Magistrate Kathleen Tomlinson held both Sabhnanis without bail pending a hearing today. If convicted, each faces a sentence of between 17 to 22 years in prison.
The two Indonesian women were told to hide in a 3-foot by 3-foot closet they shared with a storage chest when visitors came to the house, court papers said. They both entered the country on visas that had long since expired: "Samirah" five years ago and "Nona" two years ago.
The women were forced to work 21 hours a day, from 4 a.m. to 1 a.m. "seven days a week," Jones and Lesko said. The only pay "Samirah" received was $100 a month sent to her daughter in Indonesia, court papers said. It could not be learned if "Nona" received any pay.
Mahender Murlidhar Sabhnani heads a lucrative perfume distributing business from the Muttontown home. Among other fragrances, he sells a popular perfume called Royal Mirage through several corporations, including PVM International, the papers said.
The scary thing is, this event occurred right near me! It's kinda hard to write off the enslaving of people as some distant and uncommon thing when it happened miles from where you live. It's events like these which can help to change your perspective/outlook.
Still, it's really weird to be able to say things like "my neighbors were arrested for slavery!"
+ Show Spoiler +
   
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I was always aware there was child slave trading still going on but didn't realize it was in America...
+ Show Spoiler +I spy a young TL surfer who will misread this whole thread and call micronesia a racist bastard and will request a ban
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Who are the two people that voted good rofl
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Micronesia, you racist bastard.

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You can buy a slave in Haiti for less than the plane ticket to get there and then bring them back and claim you're their defendant/relative. It's a big problem atm.
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WOW WRONG SMILEY

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good if you are the owner i guess bad if you are the slave
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tl;dr..... JUST playing lol....
That fucking sucks really. I don't understand how people can still treat other people like that when it comes to slavery.
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United States24612 Posts
On December 29 2008 15:43 ish0wstopper wrote: good if you are the owner i guess bad if you are the slave
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I'd be hella afraid of slave uprisings.. I mean, who wouldn't support them?
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Indifferent.
I don't think slavery (the term) is that bad, since it is just forced labor. But when taken to the extremes these people are taking them and forcing people who don't deserve to be slaves into being slaves is just wrong.
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I voted "good" like the other people before me. Only because I, like the others that voted the same way, wanted to ruin the poll for everyone else by thinking it would be funny to vote as I did even though I do no believe in what I voted for.
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Not trying to start a big war or anything, but Fangster, who is it that you believe DO deserve to be slaves?
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I voted bad because there is a black guy right behind me....OH SHI......
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On December 29 2008 16:19 Spartan wrote: I voted "good" like the other people before me. Only because I, like the others that voted the same way, wanted to ruin the poll for everyone else by thinking it would be funny to vote as I did even though I do no believe in what I voted for. I was going for this, but I realized too many people already voted Bad before I had a chance to get Good a head start
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On December 29 2008 16:20 Lemonwalrus wrote: I voted bad because there is a black guy right behind me....OH SHI...... LOL hahahaha
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depends on how you treat the slave, or the conditions of slavery. For example, Roman slavery- good. American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. 
Regulated slavery doesn't sound too bad to me.
Edit: voted indifferent.
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I actually think that Indentured servitude, which is basically giving your labor for a certain amount of years as a way to pay a debt or something, is not inherently a bad thing.
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On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim
ya that could go either way for me too.
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On December 29 2008 16:51 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim ya that could go either way for me too. Your talking about the process in which the slaves were brought about, not the actual process of their enslavement. Some slave owners were quite kind to their saves, treating them as one of the family- many actually secretly married their slaves and had children with them for god sakes. Others were exceptionally brutal, many in between.
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where's the option for awesome?
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United States24612 Posts
On December 29 2008 16:54 ahrara_ wrote: where's the option for awesome? (Vote): Good
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On December 29 2008 16:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:51 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim ya that could go either way for me too. Your talking about the process in which the slaves were brought about, not the actual process of their enslavement. Some slave owners were quite kind to their saves, treating them as one of the family- many actually secretly married their slaves and had children with them for god sakes. Others were exceptionally brutal, many in between. "hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food" "subject to your masters every whim" is not the process of being enslaved, although thats irrelevant because part of slavery is how you become a slave.
and it doesnt really matter if they choose to treat you nicely or not. you want to be someones property? even if theyre nice as can be, piss em off and they can send you back to hard labor or just have you killed. youd be ok with having no control over your life as long as the person who told you what to do was nice about it?
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On December 29 2008 16:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:51 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim ya that could go either way for me too. Your talking about the process in which the slaves were brought about, not the actual process of their enslavement. Some slave owners were quite kind to their saves, treating them as one of the family- many actually secretly married their slaves and had children with them for god sakes. Others were exceptionally brutal, many in between. the process that the slaves were brought about was required for the slavery. so that makes it a process of their enslavement. therefore pre civil war slavery was definitely not in between and obviously bad. making someone work against their will is not right. like why am i saying this... go watch roots
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yeah, i bet those slaves with great owners would always rather be slaves than be free
what?
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On December 29 2008 17:08 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 29 2008 16:51 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim ya that could go either way for me too. Your talking about the process in which the slaves were brought about, not the actual process of their enslavement. Some slave owners were quite kind to their saves, treating them as one of the family- many actually secretly married their slaves and had children with them for god sakes. Others were exceptionally brutal, many in between. "hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food" "subject to your masters every whim" is not the process of being enslaved, although thats irrelevant because part of slavery is how you become a slave. and it doesnt really matter if they choose to treat you nicely or not. you want to be someones property? even if theyre nice as can be, piss em off and they can send you back to hard labor or just have you killed. youd be ok with having no control over your life as long as the person who told you what to do was nice about it? K, you are clearly missing the point of this thread. The question was not: "Would you mind being a slave?" It was "Is slavery good or bad". Yeah, being a slave, regardless of time period [though rome is questionable] would suck. Is it bad or good? I don't really think that can be answered in moral terms, because Slavery can do both good and bad to all involved. It can be a process where a person is hardly at all bound to the whims of the master, and restrictions on their life are essentially ignored, an easy form of economic advancement while keeping a roof over your head in harsh economic times- that could see you starve and die as a freed man, like in Roman times, or you could absolute restrictions on your life. On December 29 2008 17:11 ulszz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 29 2008 16:51 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim ya that could go either way for me too. Your talking about the process in which the slaves were brought about, not the actual process of their enslavement. Some slave owners were quite kind to their saves, treating them as one of the family- many actually secretly married their slaves and had children with them for god sakes. Others were exceptionally brutal, many in between. the process that the slaves were brought about was required for the slavery. so that makes it a process of their enslavement. therefore pre civil war slavery was definitely not in between and obviously bad. making someone work against their will is not right. like why am i saying this... go watch roots No, when were talking about slavery were talking about slavery, not enslavement. If you look at the way they were forced into being slaves you have to start questioning every single war that occured throughout history, nit picking weather that particular event was morally objectionable or not. Weather the punishment was suitable [perhaps those that were enslaved had slaughtered a city? Is it ok then?]. Does slavery become more right or wrong if your born into it rather than captured?
No, thats not relevant. Whats relevant is the situations you experience as an actual slave. Making someone work against their will has many positives for the economy, and often has many positives for the person actually enslaves. There are literally thousands of examples of Roman Slaves becoming fabulously rich- far more than free'd men of the time. Its all about context for god sakes. Nothing can be generalized, not even slavery.
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I think the main point of the poll is whether it's better to be a slave in better living conditions than free in a really impoverished setting, as the article considers.
To that extent... well it's all very conditional but in this girl's case, slavery was probably better. Yes, she was treated like shit, but at least she had a way more comfortable living and she probably would've had to go through a lot more streneous labor back with her family.
However, this is not considering her emotions, so I dunno.
On December 29 2008 17:18 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 29 2008 16:51 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim ya that could go either way for me too. Your talking about the process in which the slaves were brought about, not the actual process of their enslavement. Some slave owners were quite kind to their saves, treating them as one of the family- many actually secretly married their slaves and had children with them for god sakes. Others were exceptionally brutal, many in between. "hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food" "subject to your masters every whim" is not the process of being enslaved, although thats irrelevant because part of slavery is how you become a slave. and it doesnt really matter if they choose to treat you nicely or not. you want to be someones property? even if theyre nice as can be, piss em off and they can send you back to hard labor or just have you killed. youd be ok with having no control over your life as long as the person who told you what to do was nice about it? K, you are clearly missing the point of this thread. The question was not: "Would you mind being a slave?" It was "Is slavery good or bad". Yeah, being a slave, regardless of time period [though rome is questionable] would suck. Is it bad or good? I don't really think that can be answered in moral terms, because Slavery can do both good and bad to all involved. It can be a process where a person is hardly at all bound to the whims of the master, and restrictions on their life are essentially ignored, an easy form of economic advancement while keeping a roof over your head in harsh economic times- that could see you starve and die as a freed man, like in Roman times, or you could absolute restrictions on your life.
He did not miss the point of the thread at all, you just are unable to comprehend that slavery being good or bad DOES in fact depend on how the actual slave feels. Suprisingly enough, they have emotions too.
And let's be real here- nice slaveowners were definitely in the far minority. I am sure that barely any slave actually enjoyed being a slave.
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On December 29 2008 17:18 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 29 2008 16:51 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim ya that could go either way for me too. Your talking about the process in which the slaves were brought about, not the actual process of their enslavement. Some slave owners were quite kind to their saves, treating them as one of the family- many actually secretly married their slaves and had children with them for god sakes. Others were exceptionally brutal, many in between. "hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food" "subject to your masters every whim" is not the process of being enslaved, although thats irrelevant because part of slavery is how you become a slave. and it doesnt really matter if they choose to treat you nicely or not. you want to be someones property? even if theyre nice as can be, piss em off and they can send you back to hard labor or just have you killed. youd be ok with having no control over your life as long as the person who told you what to do was nice about it? K, you are clearly missing the point of this thread. The question was not: "Would you mind being a slave?" It was "Is slavery good or bad". Yeah, being a slave, regardless of time period [though rome is questionable] would suck. Is it bad or good? I don't really think that can be answered in moral terms, because Slavery can do both good and bad to all involved. It can be a process where a person is hardly at all bound to the whims of the master, and restrictions on their life are essentially ignored, an easy form of economic advancement while keeping a roof over your head in harsh economic times- that could see you starve and die as a freed man, like in Roman times, or you could absolute restrictions on your life. Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 17:11 ulszz wrote:On December 29 2008 16:54 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 29 2008 16:51 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2008 16:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: American pre Civil war slavery- in between, depending on the owner, etc. Those mansion folk- bad. ...........? captured shipped across the ocean in a boat with hundred of other people in horrible conditions hard labor no chance of freedom and nothing in return but bare minimum shelter and food subject to your masters every whim ya that could go either way for me too. Your talking about the process in which the slaves were brought about, not the actual process of their enslavement. Some slave owners were quite kind to their saves, treating them as one of the family- many actually secretly married their slaves and had children with them for god sakes. Others were exceptionally brutal, many in between. the process that the slaves were brought about was required for the slavery. so that makes it a process of their enslavement. therefore pre civil war slavery was definitely not in between and obviously bad. making someone work against their will is not right. like why am i saying this... go watch roots No, when were talking about slavery were talking about slavery, not enslavement. If you look at the way they were forced into being slaves you have to start questioning every single war that occured throughout history, nit picking weather that particular event was morally objectionable or not. Weather the punishment was suitable [perhaps those that were enslaved had slaughtered a city? Is it ok then?]. Does slavery become more right or wrong if your born into it rather than captured? No, thats not relevant. Whats relevant is the situations you experience as an actual slave. Making someone work against their will has many positives for the economy, and often has many positives for the person actually enslaves. There are literally thousands of examples of Roman Slaves becoming fabulously rich- far more than free'd men of the time. Its all about context for god sakes. Nothing can be generalized, not even slavery. your basis for your argument is the semantics of the question. "No, when were talking about slavery were talking about slavery, not enslavement" enslavement is part of slavery.
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Everybody has to work, have a job, etc. Slaves just don't have a choice as to what job they do. It only takes that much to change someone from a slave to a free man/woman. In the case of the girl maid, the mother made the choice. She picked money over her child.
Some cultures just view children as property. Other people from other cultures just can't tolerate that. You can't say the little girl working as a maid was completely bad, because her salary must have helped her family. She might even have agreed to such conditions on her own to help her family.
That tips the scale slightly in favor of good.
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On December 29 2008 17:46 Loanshark wrote: Everybody has to work, have a job, etc. Slaves just don't have a choice as to what job they do. It only takes that much to change someone from a slave to a free man/woman. In the case of the girl maid, the mother made the choice. She picked money over her child.
Some cultures just view children as property. Other people from other cultures just can't tolerate that. You can't say the little girl working as a maid was completely bad, because her salary must have helped her family. She might even have agreed to such conditions on her own to help her family.
That tips the scale slightly in favor of good. better than horrible is not good if slavery is even better than living freely in poverty.
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On December 29 2008 16:19 Lemonwalrus wrote: Not trying to start a big war or anything, but Fangster, who is it that you believe DO deserve to be slaves?
Two groups, although one might not be considered to be actual slavery. 1) Indentured people Makes sense that if you owe something and can't pay it back you should be forced to pay it back with labor and such. Although this might not exactly qualify as slavery since it is possible to get out of it.
2)People fighting in war. War itself is often a gross exploitation of human life, so those that actively participate in it should face consequences just as severe.
Also, anyone that pays taxes can be considered a slave to government. Although I don't actually believe that.
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This Micronesia guy is quite the troll!!
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Netherlands19129 Posts
I finally got one for christmas and it's been really helpful so far!
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huh, i voted good before watching it had serious articles or something in it. wtf
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On December 29 2008 16:20 Lemonwalrus wrote: I voted bad because there is a black guy right behind me....OH SHI......
ROFL
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On December 29 2008 17:17 fight_or_flight wrote: Definitely bad. For those who vote good, you may think its a fine thing until you realize exactly what you are.
I think a lot of people voted good just "for fun." Just to screw with the poll because those people think that it's obvious that slavery is bad.
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On December 29 2008 15:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Who are the two people that voted good rofl
I did.
I dont see anything wrong with the exploiting of weaker persons, why else do they exist?
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Poll: Slavery, Awesome or Totally Awesome? (Vote): Totally Awesome (Vote): Partially Awesome (Vote): Sub-awesome
Better poll than OP.
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On December 30 2008 05:31 Jyvblamo wrote:Poll: Slavery, Awesome or Totally Awesome?( Vote): Totally Awesome ( Vote): Partially Awesome ( Vote): Sub-awesome Better poll than OP.
lol i was gonna do this anyways totally awesome
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On December 29 2008 15:52 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 15:43 ish0wstopper wrote: good if you are the owner i guess bad if you are the slave rofl
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On December 30 2008 06:49 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2008 05:31 Jyvblamo wrote:Poll: Slavery, Awesome or Totally Awesome?( Vote): Totally Awesome ( Vote): Partially Awesome ( Vote): Sub-awesome Better poll than OP. lol i was gonna do this anyways totally awesome
Sub-awesome : Still awesome, but not as awesome as ninjas riding on bears with laser eyes.
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United States24612 Posts
On December 30 2008 08:45 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2008 06:49 travis wrote:On December 30 2008 05:31 Jyvblamo wrote:Poll: Slavery, Awesome or Totally Awesome?( Vote): Totally Awesome ( Vote): Partially Awesome ( Vote): Sub-awesome Better poll than OP. lol i was gonna do this anyways totally awesome Sub-awesome : Still awesome, but not as awesome as ninjas riding on bears with laser eyes. Haha that's such an awesome comparison.
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