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So I've gotten a couple friends into Starcraft lately. The first one really likes playing, but really hates losing, so basically only plays one or two games at a time, and only once or so a week. Mostly hosting 1v1 noobs only on bnet west. The other one is a more hardcore competitive player (like myself). The problem is that I've been playing for almost a year now, and so I'm quite a bit better than him. He's improving fast, already ~100 APM Terran after playing only like 50 games. But my experience and being ~180 APM Zerg is kind of crushing his spirit.
Are there any ways to play that won't end up being a one-sided, not-very-fun rape for him? I'm still trying to get better myself whenever I can play, so I tend to try my hardest. Usually it's pretty even until I get my mutas, then he pretty much gets torn apart by muta/ling/lurker.
My first thought was to offrace, which would put us a bit closer together mechanically and strategically (but still with me having an advantage in both), but he says TvT and TvP are "gay," and only want's to play TvZ, because it's the most fun matchup. While I agree, it's also the most difficult matchup, and I don't want to turn him off to Starcraft.
So what can I do? I've told them to play against each other, since they're both at a similar skill level, and they're brothers, but I'd like to play some games with them too.
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man good luck ive been trying to get my friends to get into it and they refuse to..
"OLD GAME" wtf.
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Play with only the mouse.
You'll be way worse with no keyboard. Sure, you'll have way better decision making/etc, but without that keyboard, controlling a zerg army without hotkeys will be very very very difficult.
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Make a set of handicap rules? You can also try funky builds that wouldn't work versus anyone near your skill level. I've done some pretty crazy things as handicaps, I'm sure you can think of some.
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On October 20 2008 08:22 Raithed wrote:
man good luck ive been trying to get my friends to get into it and they refuse to..
"OLD GAME" wtf.
ditto, I try to get my counter strike clanmates into it but they're all noobs and they either don't want to play because the graphics are "bad" or because the game is old or because they're too noob to play rts in general.
Saddens me
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On October 20 2008 08:22 Raithed wrote:
man good luck ive been trying to get my friends to get into it and they refuse to..
"OLD GAME" wtf.
Well, they acknowledge that BW is the greatest game ever created, so that part's done. One of them is even watching progames on youtube in his free time. I predict he'll be liquibetting in 2 seasons or less.
But it seems like they barely play except when I play with them, and then they just get raped, and I don't want to turn them off to it, as I elaborated in the op.
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I think the difficult part isn't setting up an even game, but rather doing it so that they don't feel ridiculously humiliated by it.
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If you want him to get into starcraft:
1) Convince him to play all match up's and use actual build orders
2) throw him into iccup and stop raping someone who is clearly inferior to you
Otherwise, don't bother.
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On October 20 2008 08:23 Dr.Dragoon wrote:
Make a set of handicap rules? You can also try funky builds that wouldn't work versus anyone near your skill level. I've done some pretty crazy things as handicaps, I'm sure you can think of some.
I have tried that a couple times, doing what JD did in a couple games on b.net attack/live battle: playing ZvT mass hydra. It was pretty much a rollover.
Thing is, I'd like to improve my mechanics as well, and mouse-only type stuff wouldn't work well in that respect. Maybe I have to just give up on that avenue and intentionally play shitty. I'd really rather not though if there's a way not to.
He is improving though. Last game we played, he halted my muta harass pretty well (though he built somewhere around 15 turrets), and used that security to move out to my 3rd immediately, but I got my lurkers on the ramp just in time and he walked right into the spines. That was a bit disheartening for him.
If I played mouse only, he'd probably roll me. I've never clicked anywhere in the 3x3 box in the lower right except for the occasional upgrade (overlord speed/drop). Never for buildings or unit production.
Also, if I make it too obvious that I'm playing intentionally shitty, he might be offended.
I really don't know what to do about this.
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Show them pimpest plays videos and boxer videos.
Then tell them to watch gomtv or OSL finals with you live. 
Tell them to play on battle.net 1v1 noobs only, and then show them iccup
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On October 20 2008 08:33 ScarFace wrote:
If you want him to get into starcraft:
1) Convince him to play all match up's and use actual build orders
2) throw him into iccup and stop raping someone who is clearly inferior to you
Otherwise, don't bother.
He uses actual build orders. He used to only feel safe doing 2rax openings, but I've slowly gotten him to do 1rax-cc. As for the other matchups, he does play them when he hosts 1v1 noobs only games (I think).
You think he's not gonna get raped on ICCup? Maybe if he gets into D- he could find some equal competition. You think it's better than 1v1 noobs only on west?
edit: @Zoler: we did watch the TSL finals live actually. They're into it, I just want to keep them into it, and get them into it more competitively.
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maybe try getting them into 2v2 first. Play public 2v2 games with your friend and you can do most of the work. Once they figure out bo's, unit counters, and get decent mechanics reintroduce them to 1v1. This is what I am doing with a friend of mine. He is a decent wc3 player, but hasnt played sc in 7 years. So a few days a week I go online with him and play 2-5 2v2 games and we do pretty decent. I am able to make up for his lack of skill so we can win games often enough. He is having trouble accepting that he cant use the same bo in every matchup, but I am working on him. Its also helping me as well, because now I am learning 2v2 which I didnt really know how to play before. I was always just into 1v1.
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make him practice BO's and watch alot of FPVODS
just offrace him alot and mass games and tell him to not be a bitch about losing
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Tell your friend to suck it up and stop being such a baby.
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On October 20 2008 08:39 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2008 08:33 ScarFace wrote:
If you want him to get into starcraft:
1) Convince him to play all match up's and use actual build orders
2) throw him into iccup and stop raping someone who is clearly inferior to you
Otherwise, don't bother. He uses actual build orders. He used to only feel safe doing 2rax openings, but I've slowly gotten him to do 1rax-cc. As for the other matchups, he does play them when he hosts 1v1 noobs only games (I think). You think he's not gonna get raped on ICCup? Maybe if he gets into D- he could find some equal competition. You think it's better than 1v1 noobs only on west? edit: @Zoler: we did watch the TSL finals live actually. They're into it, I just want to keep them into it, and get them into it more competitively. If he loses/wins against West newbs, he learns next to nothing. The competition is not even reliable, half of the time they are hacking. ICCUP is a far easier system to not only play great players [which will force him to up his game] but it gives you stats, so you can track your progress, your weaknesses, etc. A competitive ladder like ICCUP is infinitely superior to b.net.
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United States17042 Posts
You should try creating a ums map (either python or LT) where you start with 0 mins, and he starts with like 100. Alternatively, go throw away your first drone in the corner of the map somewhere (don't use it for scouting) right at the start. This ends up being about a 30 second mining handicap, which should allow him a heck of a head start.
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Really, it just sounds like you want your friend to be as good as you so practicing is more fun.
I think its going to be pretty tough to "make" your friend want to be good at SC. I mean, being good is a large time commitment, and the only way you will do that is if you genuinely like it. In other words, your friend just has to simply like it on his own. Otherwise he will never become good, and thus, not someone you can play with.
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Now is the best time to start experimenting with builds you would have never thought of doing before!
For example: two base no units fast hive only sunken defense -> defiler + ultra + lings
But while he is busy with that....use queens to create broodlings in his mineral line O.o
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On October 20 2008 08:58 EtherealDeath wrote:
Now is the best time to start experimenting with builds you would have never thought of doing before!
For example: two base no units fast hive only sunken defense -> defiler + ultra + lings
But while he is busy with that....use queens to create broodlings in his mineral line O.o
Only problem is that then the friend won't learn how to beat common strategies 
I think your friend just needs to suck it up. BW is fun and losing in BW is fun too as long as you have the right attitude.
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10387 Posts
just keep playing standard with him. That's the only way he'll get better.
you could also give him a couple UMS maps to work on his mechanics. There's the splitter one, and one where you multitask an scv from being killed in the corner of the map while you build up a base to take down a zerg base in the north
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I really think offracing would be the best idea. The game would be a lot more even and you can practice your timings for your other MUs. You should tell your friend to just suck it up because he'll need to learn how to play the other MUs sooner or later. Plus, he'll also gain more confidence knowing that the games aren't as one-sided as the games where you play your main race.
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On October 20 2008 08:36 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2008 08:23 Dr.Dragoon wrote:
Make a set of handicap rules? You can also try funky builds that wouldn't work versus anyone near your skill level. I've done some pretty crazy things as handicaps, I'm sure you can think of some. I have tried that a couple times, doing what JD did in a couple games on b.net attack/live battle: playing ZvT mass hydra. It was pretty much a rollover. Thing is, I'd like to improve my mechanics as well, and mouse-only type stuff wouldn't work well in that respect. Maybe I have to just give up on that avenue and intentionally play shitty. I'd really rather not though if there's a way not to. He is improving though. Last game we played, he halted my muta harass pretty well (though he built somewhere around 15 turrets), and used that security to move out to my 3rd immediately, but I got my lurkers on the ramp just in time and he walked right into the spines. That was a bit disheartening for him. If I played mouse only, he'd probably roll me. I've never clicked anywhere in the 3x3 box in the lower right except for the occasional upgrade (overlord speed/drop). Never for buildings or unit production. Also, if I make it too obvious that I'm playing intentionally shitty, he might be offended. I really don't know what to do about this.
You have to pick one or the other. There's no way for you to improve and give them a chance to win at the same time. Just let them play each other and people their own skill level for a while, and in a few months you can play them again and see how they are doing.
You really dont want to beat down on someone who is just learning, think back to when you first started playing, especially if you pick it up this late in the games life, learning SC can be pretty brutal at first.
Just have them play and you obs and tell them what they do wrong at the end or during the game.
although a think a few obvious solutions if you want to play vs them is either a)offrace b)play with an apm limit like 130ish.
It may not benefit you as much as 3 hours on iccup but having a better understanding of another race and learning to be more efficient with your actions is always a plus.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
I had the same problem as you do. My solution was to 1v2 my noob friends. They won 3 out of every 5 that we played. Then I tried 1v3 and failed....
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One time I was playing starcraft and talking about how great it was while a friend watched over my shoulder. Then he fainted. Then he took up war3. Fail
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On October 20 2008 10:33 Pads wrote:One time I was playing starcraft and talking about how great it was while a friend watched over my shoulder. Then he fainted. Then he took up war3. Fail
true story eh?
But in this matter, I think it's just as A3iL3r0n said... to become good, you need motivation - to get motivation you need to enjoy the game. If you're a sore loser and dislike getting raped has nothing to do with it. To become as good as you he must deal with it, learn from his mistakes and strive to get better, not to win.
It is tough getting into BW in this time and age. Even at D levels on iccup, people are really good in comparison with the PGT D noobs a few years back. There are barely no newbies anymore, and to even beat the 'newbies' you need to play for months.
And I think a lot of people have a problem handling the fact that they won't be able to win in a very long time.
I've also introduced friends to Starcraft, most recently one a few months ago. He had a really good motivation to get better, but he didn't want to play vs me at all because he kept getting raped.
He only created 1v1 noob on europe and his stats after his first week were something like 3-71. I believe he's given up on BW by now...
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
I've had more success with a recent friend. He started SC about a month ago, but he had played for a little 3 years ago or something. Anyways, he's now totally obsessed, mostly due to the influence of me and my other StarCraft playing friends. The main thing is that he knows he'll get raped when he plays me, but he still plays. Which is good.
edit: My town library is great. We have a teen section, and once me and my friend were there play sc. Before that all ppl played was halo. People were like "wow wtf is that?" We were like "its sc u nubs." Nowadays, the library is split half-half between SC and combat arms, but all the people playing sc are 20 apm noobs who spam cheats -_-.
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Around a year and a half ago I managed to get about 10 friends into BW, none of us play anymore (Including myself), but it wasn't bad while it lasted. We had fun match ups for the most part, even though 2 of us were clearly superior to the other 8 (Or more?)
Basically, they'll play if you can make it fun. We made it into a competition type thing where we'd all obs the games while people played, then people would say who they wanted to play, what map, etc.
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i've tried to force my cousin to play sc and get better at it, but he simply has not experienced the joy or starcraft, the rewarding feelings you get after you do things right and how it all contributed to your win. or even if you lose, if you can see how you improved that is good also. but yeah i wish my cousin would play sc with me
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
how many people who live within 5 miles of you play starcraft? for me it's about 30-40 because my town is full of Koreans
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i like to limit the number of units i make and try to out micro my friend that plays.
my micro improves, and some of the games are close, though when i get in a trouble spot i turn on the macro machine, so he hasn't stolen a game from me yet 
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easiest way to get a friend into SC is to burn them a copy.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
sending them straight onto iccup is a disaster, unless they get off on masochism
play 2v2s/3v3s/team melees with them first so they improve their basic mechanics and actually enjoy the game. it's harder to appreciate 1v1 when you're first beginning, and it could be a huge turnoff.
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Don't be worried about him being offended from you playing intentionally shitty.
Just tell him you've been playing for years, and the game takes time to master, so he can't expect to be as good as you in a couple of weeks. Thus you're just trying to make it more fun for him.
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Korea (South)11584 Posts
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Tell him to come to OP SEEDCLAN on West... and I agree about playing 1v2 team melee
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When i want to play BW at a LAN, my friend say "haha, maybe we should play GameBoy with GameLink-cable. Thats the same graphic"
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On October 21 2008 02:39 beetlelisk wrote:
Tell him to come to OP SEEDCLAN on West... and I agree about playing 1v2 team melee
make sure he has chaos launcher though ;x
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EPT
