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United States42487 Posts
On July 25 2008 12:37 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:30 Kwark wrote:On July 25 2008 12:12 DamageControL wrote:
kwark btw what are your personal religious views? I've yet to see any evidence of anything supernatural in my life, including God. As such I find myself unable to believe. But God, if he exists, knows that and if he's interested in my worship he knows where to find me. So I'm an athiest I guess. I see. And if God is beyond our understanding?
Then he's asking more than I can give. He'll know this and he'll be understanding about it. He'll recognise that for me to do what he's asking of me without hypocrisy would require me to genuinely believe in everything for which there is no proof which would in turn lead to a catclysmic systems failure for my mind. I'm sure he won't hold that against me though, we're just in a bit of a bind until he decides to prove himself logically to me. The Bible is full of stories of personal revelation so I'm sure if God really wanted my belief he'd reveal himself. But I expect that as long as I'm happy doing my own thing he's happy letting me. God's cool like that.
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On July 25 2008 12:37 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:30 Kwark wrote:On July 25 2008 12:12 DamageControL wrote:
kwark btw what are your personal religious views? I've yet to see any evidence of anything supernatural in my life, including God. As such I find myself unable to believe. But God, if he exists, knows that and if he's interested in my worship he knows where to find me. So I'm an athiest I guess. I see. And if God is beyond our understanding?
Beyond our understanding in what way?
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On July 25 2008 12:36 nA.Inky wrote:
I consider myself agnostic. But I am happy for you. I wish you the best with Christianity and with whatever else. Our journeys take us in different places, and yours has taken you to Christ and God.
What I am unsure of in your post is this: "Now I just feel right now compelled to say something, compassion for you guys, you non-Christians. Your fleeting happiness, your problems, your sadness your loneliness."
It is great that your relationship to God is helping you so much, but please do not assume that everyone else is miserable and lost. Some of us may be lost, but if we are, we don't particularly want to be found. And I also object to the implication that only non-christians experience fleeting happiness, problems, sadness, and loneliness. There are plenty of Christians who live their lives in misery, and there are plenty of non-Christians who live fulfilling, interesting lives. We all have our ways of coping with difficulty, and sometimes God is not among them.
I doubt it was your intent to be condescending, but I think many of the harsh responses you are getting come, in part, from the fact that your words, particularly what I quoted above, can easily come off as condescending.
I respect your way, and simply ask for respect in turn. It's not important that we all share the same religion or outlook.
It doesn't happen often, (  ) but I absolutely have to agree with nA.Inky here.
I mean, congrats that you have quite obviously found a situation that makes you much happier than you were before, but don't assume that I am who you used to be just because I am not who you are now.
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On July 25 2008 10:36 Barbarne wrote:
To not realize how some people can draw strenght and happiness from their faith is a true sign of ignorance.
so true.
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On July 25 2008 12:33 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:13 travis wrote:
I believe lust is a sin. But it's hard to pin down in a real discussion; semantics.
I believe lust is a sin because it begets more lust. Lust is not something that you can find an answer for, you can chase it indefinitely but you will never get what you want. It's the same for all sins.
There is no happiness down a path of sin. But everyone makes mistakes. I'll be lusty today, I'll end up jacking off. I'll probably be lusty tomorrow. I'll probably end up jacking off tomorrow. Where's the sin?
Lust is a sin of excess. Excess is relative to the individual.
Obviously we are innocent of that which occurs outside of our control. It's sinful when you pursue it.
I have to guess your followup question will by "why is it sinful when you pursue it" and my basis for that might take a while to explain but I don't mind doing so.
the sin is in the time and energy and thought you wasted jacking off.
You could say that about almost anything you enjoy doing.
I believe starcraft is a sin because it begets more starcraft. etc etc. You can play it and you'll be satisfied with a win or you'll be frustrated if you couldn't perform well or whatever. But tomorrow when the urges start you'll play again unless you find something better to do.
when you are totally focused in a game of starcraft you are completely selfless(meaning you have no thoughts towards desires or urges). the nature of sin is the opposite.
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On July 25 2008 12:35 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:21 travis wrote:On July 25 2008 12:18 DamageControL wrote:On July 25 2008 12:13 travis wrote:
I believe lust is a sin. But it's hard to pin down in a real discussion; semantics.
I believe lust is a sin because it begets more lust. Lust is not something that you can find an answer for, you can chase it indefinitely but you will never get what you want. It's the same for all sins.
There is no happiness down a path of sin. But everyone makes mistakes. define lust please travis sexual desire, physical attraction Try having sexual intimacy without physical attraction.
I am not sure what you mean.
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United States42487 Posts
On July 25 2008 12:57 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:35 Kwark wrote:On July 25 2008 12:21 travis wrote:On July 25 2008 12:18 DamageControL wrote:On July 25 2008 12:13 travis wrote:
I believe lust is a sin. But it's hard to pin down in a real discussion; semantics.
I believe lust is a sin because it begets more lust. Lust is not something that you can find an answer for, you can chase it indefinitely but you will never get what you want. It's the same for all sins.
There is no happiness down a path of sin. But everyone makes mistakes. define lust please travis sexual desire, physical attraction Try having sexual intimacy without physical attraction. I am not sure what you mean.
A healthy sexual relationship requires sexual desire. You said lust, defined as sexual desire, is a sin.
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United States42487 Posts
On July 25 2008 12:56 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:33 Kwark wrote:On July 25 2008 12:13 travis wrote:
I believe lust is a sin. But it's hard to pin down in a real discussion; semantics.
I believe lust is a sin because it begets more lust. Lust is not something that you can find an answer for, you can chase it indefinitely but you will never get what you want. It's the same for all sins.
There is no happiness down a path of sin. But everyone makes mistakes. I'll be lusty today, I'll end up jacking off. I'll probably be lusty tomorrow. I'll probably end up jacking off tomorrow. Where's the sin? Lust is a sin of excess. Excess is relative to the individual. Obviously we are innocent of that which occurs outside of our control. It's sinful when you pursue it. I have to guess your followup question will by "why is it sinful when you pursue it" and my basis for that might take a while to explain but I don't mind doing so. Show nested quote +
the sin is in the time and energy and thought you wasted jacking off.
You could say that about almost anything you enjoy doing.
I believe starcraft is a sin because it begets more starcraft. etc etc. You can play it and you'll be satisfied with a win or you'll be frustrated if you couldn't perform well or whatever. But tomorrow when the urges start you'll play again unless you find something better to do.
when you are totally focused in a game of starcraft you are completely selfless(meaning you have no thoughts towards desires or urges). the nature of sin is the opposite.
I disagree entirely. For me Starcraft and jacking off are very comparable. Something isn't sinful because it wastes time and thought. How you choose to waste your time is entirely up to you and concepts of sin shouldn't come into it. I play starcraft because I enjoy the feeling of having played a good game. I jack off because orgasms are pretty good.
Are you using sin in the religious sense of the word? If not please define it.
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On July 25 2008 13:02 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:57 travis wrote:On July 25 2008 12:35 Kwark wrote:On July 25 2008 12:21 travis wrote:On July 25 2008 12:18 DamageControL wrote:On July 25 2008 12:13 travis wrote:
I believe lust is a sin. But it's hard to pin down in a real discussion; semantics.
I believe lust is a sin because it begets more lust. Lust is not something that you can find an answer for, you can chase it indefinitely but you will never get what you want. It's the same for all sins.
There is no happiness down a path of sin. But everyone makes mistakes. define lust please travis sexual desire, physical attraction Try having sexual intimacy without physical attraction. I am not sure what you mean. A healthy sexual relationship requires sexual desire. You said lust, defined as sexual desire, is a sin.
yeah, but I had failed to stipulate that is a sin when "in excess". It would take me a long time to define in excess but I probably could if you really wanted me to
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On July 25 2008 12:37 DamageControL wrote:
I see. And if God is beyond our understanding?
If God is beyond our understanding, then who are we to say what He deems to be good and bad? Oh wait, without your repressions and dichotomies, then there's no point to Christianity.
I think Kwark's posts were excellent in this thread. The problem with Christianity is that you take all these sorts of different feelings and problems and you try to understand them through this one lens that supposedly solves them.
Have you considered that rather than repressing and masking your fears and anxieties, you might have to deal with them _ALL_ your life? And maybe control your own flaws, instead of turning to some system that tells you that human behavior is WRONG. Maybe human behavior isn's wrong - it's simply that there will always be real pain and suffering - and the way to deal with it is through self mastery and introspection and not some fantasy.
A good example is the point about lust. Who cares about lust? Why feel guilty and repress your feelings? They are there because that's how it is - but just because it's there doesn't mean you should act on it - because it's probably not for your own good (lose a friend, go to jail etc). I don't see any need to justify it morally as well.
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follow the seven virtues...prudence is one of them.
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kwark im gonna bump this tommorrow so we can continue this discussion if you want to, because I want to but my adderal is wearing out and im pretty tired and am having trouble thinking
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The main reason you have a better life is because you now have more people to hang out with... Isnt it obvious that you just needed friends lol? Way to go, you were an asshole in the past now your not an asshole but christ will forgive you right?
But im glad you no longer a racist threat to society and that you have a good life, not even joking on that.
Wow im happy! wow im not religious, I did it MYSELF 
Lol pastor's kid easy target, why didn't he just get his dad to smite the idiots picking on him?
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United States42487 Posts
On July 25 2008 13:18 travis wrote:
kwark im gonna bump this tommorrow so we can continue this discussion if you want to, because I want to but my adderal is wearing out and im pretty tired and am having trouble thinking
Sure. I'm always happy to discuss philosophy.
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On July 25 2008 12:42 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:37 DamageControL wrote:On July 25 2008 12:30 Kwark wrote:On July 25 2008 12:12 DamageControL wrote:
kwark btw what are your personal religious views? I've yet to see any evidence of anything supernatural in my life, including God. As such I find myself unable to believe. But God, if he exists, knows that and if he's interested in my worship he knows where to find me. So I'm an athiest I guess. I see. And if God is beyond our understanding? Then he's asking more than I can give. He'll know this and he'll be understanding about it. He'll recognise that for me to do what he's asking of me without hypocrisy would require me to genuinely believe in everything for which there is no proof which would in turn lead to a catclysmic systems failure for my mind. I'm sure he won't hold that against me though, we're just in a bit of a bind until he decides to prove himself logically to me. The Bible is full of stories of personal revelation so I'm sure if God really wanted my belief he'd reveal himself. But I expect that as long as I'm happy doing my own thing he's happy letting me. God's cool like that.
Because he is beyond our understanding, this is why God asks for faith and not for understanding.
In my opinion
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Ok some interesting arguments have came up.
1) Lust is not sexual desire, you can have sexual desire but it must be based around love, lust is when you view a woman or a womans body or have sex in a way that it's all about YOU it's the opposite of love which is sacraficing your time and such for another person. Love doesn't mean however you can't enjoy it. Pursuing naked images of women, there is no possible sacrifice's and no possible way you love that woman and yet your using her body as a tool.
Yes you do have sexual urges, this was to ensure the growth of the human race, however when you take those sexual urges, something that God intended to be used purely between one woman and one man when married and turn it into something unpure, looking at pornography so you can masturbate more than your body needs or is healthy then you become bondage to it. Thats why it's a sin. Masturbation without lust is fine and that satisfy your body in the same way, therefore your argument that God gave me balls and sexual urges did not give you the right to go looking for arousal from images or women who were not your wife, have you no self control or control over your body? Thats what Christ wants to free you from.
2) We are saved through faith in Jesus. It was constructed like this because if you were saved through logic or great wonders then it would be easy for satan to mislead you as he too can do these things, but faith can rarely be destroyed or misled from the point you put it in Jesus. Also keep in mind it was us who done this to ourselves by our sin so why should God save everyone on earth? Why should he make a wonder for everyone to see and say ok time to become Christians and lets have a party. Faith in Christ leads to purity of the entirety of yourself and humbles you before God, if it didn't work like this it wouldn't be suitable for God to have us in heaven which is meant for the elect. Not to mention I'm guessing that it is possible to rebel against God even in heaven, he doesn't want that therefore everyone must go through the process of faith to leading a life pure and trying to become Christ-like with his help.
3) And maybe control your own flaws, instead of turning to some system that tells you that human behavior is WRONG. Maybe human behavior isn's wrong - it's simply that there will always be real pain and suffering - and the way to deal with it is through self mastery and introspection and not some fantasy. - naventus
Humans are incapable of self mastery it's that simple. Christianity is not all about repressing human nature either it's living in a way that is acceptable to God and I think God knows what human natures purpose was more than we do. Who are you to say what is human nature against the one who created humans?
No one said pain and suffering ever ends when you become a Christian, what you think we all live in some delusional happiness? This is some myth. Things become harder usually when you become a Christian before they get better.
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Oh no! His post seems to be preachy. Then please, just leave the thread. At least it seems to be a little less deliberate, contrary to most aggressive atheists. He just has a viewpoint that you don't agree with. These things are never new.
He may believe that what he has found is the only true way, and you may say that there are so many other things people have found. This may very well be true, but it doesn't mean that Christianity is the same as everything else. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Christianity seems to be the only religion where the person has nothing to do with their salvation (besides accepting it). Many other religions revolve around following these rules and doing this or that. Although Christianity does have laws, following them won't get your salvation. Only the choice for salvation.
And Christianity is quite the opposite of happy lovey dovey. As all of you know, everyone loves to bash on Christianity - more than any other religion (on rare occasion they have good reason for it). Even the Bible says that following Christ will give you a harder life. Makes you wonder why there are so many followers then.
Some people seem to be using skewed definition of the word tolerance (either that or I'm really tired and there are actually none). They are using the operative [contemporary] definition where every viewpoint is valid. This is completely wrong and self-contradictory. Viewpoint A says that viewpoint B is wrong, whereas viewpoint B says that viewpoint A is wrong. How are they both simultaneous valid? I guess this is assuming you believe in absolute truths. Rather, I think we have to take on the classical definition of tolerance where as some viewpoints may be true, but there is still a mutual respect for other viewpoints. (I'm not going to go into what's true >_>.) Regardless of who may be right or the presence of disagreement, the key word is respect.
On the topic of sexual desire, not even from a religious point of view, would you think that having sexual relations with other people before marriage would detract from your sexual relationship with your future partner (assuming you want one)? I'm wondering what people think of this. I'm not married, so not sure how I could answer this.
Feel free to disagree (that rhymed!), I like discussion.
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Calgary25977 Posts
Wow, in a year you certainly learned to rattle off the Christian simplespeak rather quickly.
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On July 25 2008 23:15 Chill wrote:
Wow, in a year you certainly learned to rattle off the Christian simplespeak rather quickly.
That's exactly what I thought, too.
Unfortunately I couldn't endure more than 2 paragraphs of it.
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Religion threads are always interesting here.
I'm happy you changed your ways, gl
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EPT
