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On July 26 2008 13:18 msadc wrote:
Not looking to argue, but I was hoping someone who actually understands Christianity could answer a simple question for me. PM me if you prefer since this is not really related to the OP.
If God is all powerful and all good, why can't he squish the devil like an ant, end all of the suffering on Earth, and go ahead and send us to eternal salvation in Heaven. Why is he playing this game with us?
I've never heard a real explanation.
The idea is that if he did that we would lose free will, and meaning.
Life is a test to see who is worthy.
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So God wants some people to suffer eternal damnation? I don't get it.
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On July 26 2008 13:39 msadc wrote:
So God wants some people to suffer eternal damnation? I don't get it.
No, ideally he wants everyone to be in heaven with him. But he knows that if they are, they must earn it.
Like how all teachers do not want to fail their students, but they earn the grade, and they would be happy to give out all A's.
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But teachers would get in trouble if they gave out A's to all of their students. God takes orders from no one. Why does God need to play this game with us?
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On July 26 2008 13:46 msadc wrote:
But teachers would get in trouble if they gave out A's to all of their students. God takes orders from no one. Why does God need to play this game with us?
Because he cares about moral worthiness, and as creator of the universe he understands what is important, and life is just the final exam.
*I agree with you, I'm just being devils advocate.
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I understand. Hopefully there are some people educated in Christian theology who could fill me in. I've never heard a serious explanation on why an omnipotent God does all of this. Is the devil his enemy or not?
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Why would you make a blog post about religion that isn't promoting atheism on TL? ...
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On July 26 2008 13:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2008 13:18 msadc wrote:
Not looking to argue, but I was hoping someone who actually understands Christianity could answer a simple question for me. PM me if you prefer since this is not really related to the OP.
If God is all powerful and all good, why can't he squish the devil like an ant, end all of the suffering on Earth, and go ahead and send us to eternal salvation in Heaven. Why is he playing this game with us?
I've never heard a real explanation. The idea is that if he did that we would lose free will, and meaning. Life is a test to see who is worthy.
Those who follow the Calvinist tradition disagree.
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On July 26 2008 14:11 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2008 13:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On July 26 2008 13:18 msadc wrote:
Not looking to argue, but I was hoping someone who actually understands Christianity could answer a simple question for me. PM me if you prefer since this is not really related to the OP.
If God is all powerful and all good, why can't he squish the devil like an ant, end all of the suffering on Earth, and go ahead and send us to eternal salvation in Heaven. Why is he playing this game with us?
I've never heard a real explanation. The idea is that if he did that we would lose free will, and meaning. Life is a test to see who is worthy. Those who follow the Calvinist tradition disagree.
Who cares about minorities?
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On July 26 2008 13:46 msadc wrote:
But teachers would get in trouble if they gave out A's to all of their students. God takes orders from no one. Why does God need to play this game with us?
God gave us a will and free choice. Why do people need to play this game with God?
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debating why a fictional god gave us free will shows why you are all fucking idiots, especially if you can't even fucking get the story straight.
god had angels, one angel turned on him and started a revolution blah blah blah, god won sent lucifer to a place without god aka hell.
when god made man, everything was good a peaceful and there was no evil in the world. he created woman to give man company etc. they had one rule and that was not to eat from the tree in the middle of the garden or the forbidden fruit. the devil tricked eve into eating it and in turn she tempted adam and he ate it as well. after that god told man he was on his own and left it at that and that is where the old testament starts.
later on he goes back to his people, the jews and they are the chosen people who get to go to heaven, but they have to follow a much stricter path. Then god sent his son to die for the rest of the people and at that point people had to start deciding whether or not they wanted god / jesus whatever.
so basically god was burned once by humans and he is bitchy about it so now we have to jump through loops.
(and if someone tells me how I am wrong on little parts, they deserve a slap...i was summarizing / dumbing it down)
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On July 26 2008 17:28 suresh0t wrote:
so basically god was burned once by humans and he is bitchy about it so now we have to jump through loops.
(and if someone tells me how I am wrong on little parts, they deserve a slap...i was summarizing / dumbing it down)
I don't see why they would. Summarizing or "dumbing it down" as you put it doesn't excuse error. The new covenant (what Jesus did on the cross) made salvation infinitely easier than before. If there was any "loop" jumping, it was before the covenant where perfection was required (which meant sacrifices for atonement). Because of what Jesus did, we have been brought closer to God so that it isn't necessary anymore. It's literally just asking for it (sincerely of course), and you get it.
On July 26 2008 13:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2008 13:46 msadc wrote:
But teachers would get in trouble if they gave out A's to all of their students. God takes orders from no one. Why does God need to play this game with us? Because he cares about moral worthiness, and as creator of the universe he understands what is important, and life is just the final exam. *I agree with you, I'm just being devils advocate.
I have to disagree with you. If God cared about moral worthiness [as it pertains to salvation], we would all go to hell, no one would pass since we are all born sinners (thanks Adam and Eve) according to the Bible. You are trying to group Christianity with other religions which require moral worthiness. I'm not saying that morality isn't important, it is just not a prerequisite to salvation.
I do agree that we're here on earth because of free will. He could have just brought us all to heaven, but that would be forcing us against our wills. It has been said that forced love is rape. We have a choice to [want to] be with God, and he will honor that decision in the end where you will either spend eternity with God or eternity without God.
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On July 26 2008 17:28 suresh0t wrote:
debating why a fictional god gave us free will shows why you are all fucking idiots, especially if you can't even fucking get the story straight.
What story would that be?
god had angels, one angel turned on him and started a revolution blah blah blah, god won sent lucifer to a place without god aka hell.
Oh, Paradise Lost apparently
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I've changed my life thrice already (different direction, bad direction, corrected direction).
You can just as well do it without thinking about a god. Just do it for yourself, do it because you believe in *yourself*. You'll notice that you can gain a lot of confidence and success from this. Positive thinking, you know. No gods, no religion. Just you. You can do it.
Once you've done that one time, you'll realize that whether you believe in god or not doesn't actually matter... because god doesn't do shit. If he exists or not, it doesn't matter. He does nothing, if you believe he helped you with something it was either a random event or it was because you yourself worked for it and managed to do it.
You know, there's the ridiculously stupid saying "god helps you if you help yourself". This essentially means god does nothing, and if you do nothing nothing happens. You do it, then it works. Of course, because you can essentially eliminate god from this sentence. "It works if you help yourself".
Have more faith in yourself, you don't need to start believing in supernatural shit.
Anyway, still happy for you and that the placebo worked. Make up your own mind, but please don't lose your mental sanity. The OP seemed quite overzealous and missionary, almost crazy.
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Chromyne you are annoying.
I think you may have been masquerading as a non christian who respected religion but now it's easy to tell you are a definitely christian. Sorry it's infinitely easier to get to heaven now? Even more so then it was before Adam and Eve fucked up? When it was heaven on earth you dumb fuck. Everything after that has been loop jumping. There was even loop jumping in the garden with the tree and the fruit. If there wasn't loop jumping religion wouldn't make sense. My guess is that some people way back in the day decided hey, we need an easier way to get to heaven...so they wrote the new testament.
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United States10774 Posts
good read, very nice. He does wonders
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suresh0t, what gave it away? The Bible verses (which I got entirely from a website)? My knowledge of a specific religion (which is beneficial regardless of your stance)?
I have not been "masquerading" as anything, I have not said anything about my religious views, and it shouldn't matter. It doesn't matter to me where you're coming from, if you make a good point, you make a good point, there's no debating that.
By easier than before, I was referring to right before the New Covenant. Please don't nit-pick at semantics. If it was heaven on earth, it couldn't be easier to get to heaven if you are already there. This means you can logically deduce that I wasn't referring to that period of time.
Oh yes, and thank you for the guess.
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On July 26 2008 22:23 Chromyne wrote:
I don't see why they would. Summarizing or "dumbing it down" as you put it doesn't excuse error. The new covenant (what Jesus did on the cross) made salvation infinitely easier than before. If there was any "loop" jumping, it was before the covenant where perfection was required (which meant sacrifices for atonement). Because of what Jesus did, we have been brought closer to God so that it isn't necessary anymore. It's literally just asking for it (sincerely of course), and you get it.
Jews obviously disagree that salvation was/is so hard to earn.
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On July 25 2008 13:10 naventus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 12:37 DamageControL wrote:
I see. And if God is beyond our understanding? If God is beyond our understanding, then who are we to say what He deems to be good and bad? Oh wait, without your repressions and dichotomies, then there's no point to Christianity. I think Kwark's posts were excellent in this thread. The problem with Christianity is that you take all these sorts of different feelings and problems and you try to understand them through this one lens that supposedly solves them. Have you considered that rather than repressing and masking your fears and anxieties, you might have to deal with them _ALL_ your life? And maybe control your own flaws, instead of turning to some system that tells you that human behavior is WRONG. Maybe human behavior isn's wrong - it's simply that there will always be real pain and suffering - and the way to deal with it is through self mastery and introspection and not some fantasy. A good example is the point about lust. Who cares about lust? Why feel guilty and repress your feelings? They are there because that's how it is - but just because it's there doesn't mean you should act on it - because it's probably not for your own good (lose a friend, go to jail etc). I don't see any need to justify it morally as well.
I hope you realize I am not christian. Don't be so offended. I am just asking the question to see what he says, because he seems quite intelligent.
I agree with what you say. Still, christianity provides some good social structure. If we all followed the good book, we would have a good society. Unfortunately some of its rules are silly and excessive. Fortunately it is not the only way to have a functioning society so we do not all have to follow it.
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EPT
