|
The issue of "equivalent exchange"; a concept of justice and fairness. Above all, it's one of the factors that differentiate the life of one person from another. In Full Metal Alchemist, the whole plot of the story revolves around this concept of "equivalent exchange": in order to gain something, something else of equal value must be lost, and vice-versa. But is this the real case in our world? As rotten and decayed as our world may seem, does this concept exist in everyone's life? And if it doesn't, how do we define fairness? Yet most important of all, if fairness is merely a term used to initiate that small spark of non-existent hope in life, where is God? And what is His sense of the Kingdom of Christ where fairness does not exist? This is the controversal topic I would like to discuss with you guys:
Humanity is on the cliff of deterioration. Poverty, famine, genocide, racism, etc. If God is fair, why does so many people suffer needlessly for others' sins? Does their continuous suffering awaken us and help us to realize the magnitude of our sins? The answer is no, it doesn't. Yet why? Why are these pitiful people always on the edge of death? Is this merely God's plan to sneer at mankind as we continue down the road to extinction? These people live in huts, with dirty water and barely any food to survive, while on the other parts of the world, greed and power overtake the heart of man. Why are these sinful men not suffering? And why do innocent people have to suffer instead?
As we, the commoners, live everyday of our busy lives trying to fulfill and accomplish our goals, do we always get what we want? The numerous people who study countless hours every night for an exam, or trying to get into a good university, those people who try their best to make their lives better, to support a family, are they repaid for their efforts? Why do these strong sparks of dreams must be extinguished in a flash, and why do they always fail regardless of how much they contribute to improve their lives? Where is the concept of equivalent exchange? Countless of hours of sacrifice for what? Most of the time, merely for the inevitable disappointment as a result. How can fairness be explained? So much effort and determination, and sometimes it is all for nothing.
If the concept of equivalent exchange is a disillusion, what is the point of life? Do we always have to try so hard just so we can fail miserably? Where is God, and His sense of fairness? If I, no, if "we" cannot dictate the reasoning behind this mystery, why do the most of us embed our hopes and prayers to God? Is God merely a concept made up by humankind to excuse themselves and forgive themselves from sin? Just like the concept of equivalent exchange..?
|
(Without God) : Life isnt fair
(With God) : Life is fair
I dont really want to explain myself
|
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
2EZ
|
in b4 religious discussion
|
I think God is fair, but we are just too retarded to see all the opportunities he keeps giving us and just whine about how life is unfair and blame it on how God sucks at his "job".  jk
|
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent This is the fallacy of epicurius' statement.
|
With God, he could do anything he wants, he is being fair in not blowing us up with nukes every time we sin.
Jesus died on the cross so that we basically wouldn't live in an eternal nuke drop. He died to obey God, and get us away from our punishment, only if we believe.
In order to do that, he had to die and rise again. It was painful, and Jesus Christ/God didn't deserve it. We deserve Hell, and yet Christ took everyone's place, and all that is needed is to trust in him.
The book of mark states it pretty plainly;
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Believe. That is all you must do to be saved, Baptism, is just a sort of ceremony, to show you will try and live a new life.
God is merciful, and life is fair, because he has to jugle justice and love/grace perfectly, he will not destroy everyone quite yet, untill everyone has had the chance to repent. Evil is punished just not instantly or forgiven through Jesus.
Romans 3: 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
|
But why would God want to drop nukes on us in the first place? If he wanted us dead, he could have just not created us.
We are alive, but for what reason? To worship God? Wouldn't that make God selfish and a sinner himself?
Religion has always sounded too crazy to me.
|
Really, it depends on how you assess "gaining" or "losing" something. It's really easy to do with mass/energy, because you can measure it, and conclude that the net difference is always 0.
Is life a zero-sum game? I could suggest that death will take away anything good, and therefore be as much of a bad thing as what you're losing by dying, or will take away anything bad, and therefore be as much of a good thing as what you're escaping by dying.
If we're going to ignore death, then I can't see how you can resolve it objectively. Let's say one guy spends 2 careful hours making an immaculate mud pie. Another guy does the same, except his ingredients are apples. They put in the same amount, but the guy who made the apple pie ends up with a meal. This seems to imply that no, you don't necessarily get what you put in. Unless you really like mud pies.
|
Bottleabuser mentioned a useful term: zero-sum game. This is what you seem to be talking about at times in your post.
Life does not always work out in zero-sum games; often it does not. A simple example is sex, where by giving you also receive, and everyone is presumably better off for the whole thing. Multitudes of other examples exist.
Your post seems to arise from a sad state of mind. It is true that people suffer and that events often are not fair. What does this say about God? I prefer not to dwell on that, as I see no evidence for the existence of God (though I don't deny the possibility that there may be such a thing, unlikely as it seems to me, at least in the conventional sense.) It is true, life is not fair, no matter how beautiful or how horrible we perceive it to be. Some people who seem to deserve so much out of life may suffer, while those who seem to deserve nothing are seemingly rewarded.
But I prefer to believe there is some kind of internal direction and purpose in the universe. My view point is wholy irrational, but after a point, I think some people realize that rationality is only of so much use, and when you give up seeking absolute truth, usefulness becomes more important. I prefer to think that everything that happens is for the best, including the most horrific suffering. The purpose or goodness of many things is hidden from us, but I remind myself that many bad things that have happened to me have led me to other places that I found to be very wonderful. Many bad things have made me a stronger and wiser person, and some bad things have led me to a place where I can better help others.
I also do believe strongly in karma, although perhaps not quite literally in the way that many people understand it. I think we must live in the world we create, and so creating a world of backstabbing and injustice means we have to live in such a world, and that means none of us is safe. We owe it to ourselves as well as to others to live compassionately and considerately. It's not always easy.
Anyway, a bunch of somewhat disjointed and non-explained thoughts, but mostly I'd just like to say that it is nice to see someone considering openly and honestly some rather heavy thoughts. Happy to discuss more here or in private. Peace.
Nick
|
Inky, it can be very appealing to think that bad things can ultimately be seen as good in a way, such as by making the people suffering stronger or better people for the experience.
I think it's also very dangerous.
It will often (not necessarily, of course...) lead to acceptance of bad things, and sometimes even lead to people embracing bad things (I'm sure you've seen some religious nut proclaiming that God is helping the African children somehow by starving them). But acceptance of a bad thing is, I think, stupid and hurtful.
Recognize what's bad and what's good, work on reducing or eliminating the former while increasing the latter. That's hard, that takes effort, and it's not always clear how to go about doing it. It may even be ultimately futile. However, I much prefer this approach.
|
life is to die, and to die, you must live life.
|
Robert A. Heinlein:
The supreme irony of life is that no one gets out of it alive
|
On February 01 2008 12:43 GeneralZap wrote:
With God, he could do anything he wants, he is being fair in not blowing us up with nukes every time we sin.
Jesus died on the cross so that we basically wouldn't live in an eternal nuke drop. He died to obey God, and get us away from our punishment, only if we believe.
In order to do that, he had to die and rise again. It was painful, and Jesus Christ/God didn't deserve it. We deserve Hell, and yet Christ took everyone's place, and all that is needed is to trust in him.
The book of mark states it pretty plainly;
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Believe. That is all you must do to be saved, Baptism, is just a sort of ceremony, to show you will try and live a new life.
God is merciful, and life is fair, because he has to jugle justice and love/grace perfectly, he will not destroy everyone quite yet, untill everyone has had the chance to repent. Evil is punished just not instantly or forgiven through Jesus.
Romans 3: 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
well maybe you do....... I however feel that no one on this earth is deserving of a place like hell, even if it is imaginary;D
"the book of mark states it pretty plainly"....you know thats how most people feel about alot of passages in the bible. Interesting how there are so many interpretations........don't worry, I'm sure YOURS are right. Not that we will ever know since we aren't arguing facts or presenting evidence, merely belief;)
to the OP:
people ask questions like this because the world as we know it seems to be incompatible with the Christian God or other gods that are suppose to be all powerful and all loving. Most will cite "free will" as an answer to this problem.
The fact of the matter is, free will is completely incompatible with an all powerful all knowing God.
People just like to overlook this obvious hole in their answer. Some try to explain how free will and an omnipotent God can exist and fail miserably;( ( of course Free Will doesn't really exist anyway in any objective sense. )
More directly to the point, I don't know if you were using "God" in a metaphorical sense or not, but looking at what you posted, what conclusions would you come to after reading that? I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
|
I essentially agree with you BottleAbuser. The ideas I put forward are ideas to embrace when there is nothing more you can do. It is essentially a mindset that recognizes limitation and mortality.
I wrote some things I try to keep in mind in hard times on a piece of paper which I keep on my bedroom wall. These take the form of absolute statements, but actually result from the fact that I gave up my positivist/rational ways, and have embraced functionality. Not to say my views are cynical, however - I do believe what I say. Here:
1) When life is hard or painful, embrace discipline (exercise, learning, structure)
2) Struggle and pain make us stronger
3) Life gives us what we need - sometimes we need pain.
4) Contradictions are inherent in reality (possibility of multiple contradictory truths)
5) The Universe is fundamentally good. (Zen/Hindu/etc idea which is "cosmic consciousness")
6) Evil may be part of goodness, but I do not dwell on this; I serve the greatest good I know. An eye should not try to be a hand, and a hand should not try to be an eye. I do my part for the greater whole. (Let go of trying to control and understand everything - mystery is built in to life).
If you have read any of my other blogs, you know I advocate strongly for personal responsibility and action to ease worldwide suffering and to promote goodness. I don't have the attitude that we should give up caring or give up doing anything. But we reach points where pain is inevitable or unavoidable, or where our power and abilities simply are not enough. At that point, we have to be able to let go. That's all I am really trying to say. Perhaps you are hinting at a sort of slippery slope that my ideas live on, but all that means is that as humans we are condemned to choose. There is no absolute, consistent, answer to anything. We have to be able to let go and have faith (I think.) (Note: I am an atheist.)
|
I used to think about the idea of fairness a lot too. Life just seems so drastically unfair in so many ways. After a while, I came to this conclusion...
Life is unfair. It's a fact, and there's no two ways about it. Any time spent complaining about how unfair life is can be better spent aiming to fix the said unfairness. Just do the best you can with the hand you've been dealt.
|
chiming in randomally again
Taking a look at the life of Christ....
born in poverty, ignored and hated by the one group that should have accepted him (the religious leaders), his friends betrayed him and ran away in his time of greatest need, and ultimately for everything good he did he was abandoned by everyone and killed in a horribly brutal way.
I don't think the christian message is one that life is fair. The message is "love your enemies", have mercy for others because God has more than just mercy for you, he has grace.
(mercy meaning not receiving what one deserves and grace meaning being given something one does not deserve)
The question is then, is this just? Is this justice? Shouldn't everything be fair? And if everything is fair what is up with this?
Be sure you don't go down the justice line too far though because then there are questions like... shouldn't every white person in america be enslaved by black people for hundreds of years to be just/fair? Shouldn't white people be kicked out of the US and be ruled and then almost annihilated by native americans? Of course you could insert any number of things in here.
I think most of our stomachs turn at the idea of real justice or fairness. But really I feel like that question is more a selfish question... why arent things better for me? Why aren't people who harass me punished? Why do I deserve this?
Is that question bad? Is the Christian ideal an answer to that dilemma?
Never the less I dont think its accurate to say that "God is fair". At the very least I dont know how that idea ever came about.
|
Huh. I'm sure that my views conflict with yours, but they do so many levels I don't know where to start. I'll just post my own opinions, and we can sort out the incompatibilities later.
I don't know what justice is. I don't know why people think it's desirable. I don't think it's necessary. I guess you could say that I don't see the big deal with this "fairness" thing, too.
I'm not saying we should let people run rampant, doing things without retribution. We should still lock up dangerous people... but not to punish them. The reason we should lock up a dangerous person would be to prevent future harm by that person to others. If the only reasonable way to prevent future harm is to kill him, so be it. But not for revenge, not to make him pay for it.
It wouldn't be likely to prevent future harm to mirror past offenses, because the mirrored actions would again be mirrored, ad nauseum.
|
On February 01 2008 15:51 nA.Inky wrote:
I essentially agree with you BottleAbuser. The ideas I put forward are ideas to embrace when there is nothing more you can do. It is essentially a mindset that recognizes limitation and mortality.
I wrote some things I try to keep in mind in hard times on a piece of paper which I keep on my bedroom wall. These take the form of absolute statements, but actually result from the fact that I gave up my positivist/rational ways, and have embraced functionality. Not to say my views are cynical, however - I do believe what I say. Here:
1) When life is hard or painful, embrace discipline (exercise, learning, structure)
2) Struggle and pain make us stronger
3) Life gives us what we need - sometimes we need pain.
4) Contradictions are inherent in reality (possibility of multiple contradictory truths)
5) The Universe is fundamentally good. (Zen/Hindu/etc idea which is "cosmic consciousness")
6) Evil may be part of goodness, but I do not dwell on this; I serve the greatest good I know. An eye should not try to be a hand, and a hand should not try to be an eye. I do my part for the greater whole. (Let go of trying to control and understand everything - mystery is built in to life).
If you have read any of my other blogs, you know I advocate strongly for personal responsibility and action to ease worldwide suffering and to promote goodness. I don't have the attitude that we should give up caring or give up doing anything. But we reach points where pain is inevitable or unavoidable, or where our power and abilities simply are not enough. At that point, we have to be able to let go. That's all I am really trying to say. Perhaps you are hinting at a sort of slippery slope that my ideas live on, but all that means is that as humans we are condemned to choose. There is no absolute, consistent, answer to anything. We have to be able to let go and have faith (I think.) (Note: I am an atheist.)
I understand where you are coming from.......but you know it's complete bs;( As you said, all of those beliefs are completely unfounded. Just like any religion or the belief in a supernatural God. Instead of saying I don't know to all of those questions, you are jumping to several answers that seem appealing to you....
why do we HAVE to have faith? I'm sure many people do but that isn't the point.. It is all very simple, if we don't know either way, then it is foolish to adapt some arbitrary moral law on how you think the universe works. You also happen to pick one that not only has no basis but makes no sense unless you believe in some sort of divine justice.
You might not be trying to say anything so extreme, but your choice of words bothers meT_T Reading your post gave me the same feeling I get when I hear people (religious or not) talk about how religion is for answering the questions that science can't like the why's. In the end all you are doing is giving up thinking and instead of admitting you don't know, you choose to think there is some objective "fairness" in the universe?
What? Hopefully I'm misunderstanding you but that last paragraph really seems like meaningless jargon
|
Lifes a bitch then you dieeee
that's why we get highhhhhh
not fair in the slightest, otherwise id be done with school, wouldnt be up at 8 to go to work and would be in mexico on a beach all year round
|
On February 01 2008 15:51 nA.Inky wrote:
1) When life is hard or painful, embrace discipline (exercise, learning, structure)
2) Struggle and pain make us stronger
3) Life gives us what we need - sometimes we need pain.
Why do you need discipline, or any other thing that is not pleasure to you? Only becouse world/your brain chemistry (or whatever that makes you feel like doing nothing/something that is not good for you in long run) is not perfect.
Being fat can make you go on diet and exercise but as well world could work in a way that you would be in psychical good shape whithout it.
Life not alweys give what you need to survive, some people get depressed/kill themselves, that is not perfect mechanism of emotional manipulation of your behaviour by your genes. Not only it was never perfect but also it was develop for diferent environment then we have today. Also our genes "want" to survive that does not alweys means that they want to makes us happy.
|
As for God I can't imagine how anybody can think that it is logic/moral to be punished for sins of your ancestor, yet alone why would God punish anybody or do anything, perfect God got bored one day?
As for free will how that is worth non perfect life? Nobody can even explain how could it work, or what benefit it gives.
|
On February 01 2008 23:18 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 15:51 nA.Inky wrote:
1) When life is hard or painful, embrace discipline (exercise, learning, structure)
2) Struggle and pain make us stronger
3) Life gives us what we need - sometimes we need pain. Why do you need discipline, or any other thing that is not pleasure to you? Only becouse world/your brain chemistry (or whatever that makes you feel like doing nothing/something that is not good for you in long run) is not perfect. Being fat can make you go on diet and exercise but as well world could work in a way that you would be in psychical good shape whithout it. Life not alweys give what you need to survive, some people get depressed/kill themselves, that is not perfect mechanism of emotional manipulation of your behaviour by your genes. Not only it was never perfect but also it was develop for diferent environment then we have today. Also our genes "want" to survive that does not alweys means that they want to makes us happy.
Discipline is kind of important if you wanna do anything constructive in life?
And who told you that you can be in good physical shape without dieting or exercise rofl... if you do neither, you're going to be an out of shape slob.
|
On February 01 2008 23:34 Hawk wrote:
Discipline is kind of important if you wanna do anything constructive in life?
I'll try and answer for Polis.
The definition of 'constructive' in the sense that an activity is constructive or not depends on the perspective of the individual. To Polis there may be no constructive task that exists because essentially nothing matters since human life is fairly insignificant and there is nothing beyond death. Thus, all achievements become irrelevent to the person once they die, hence it is best to live life in a manner that gives you as much happiness as possible.
This does not necessarily mean not working and slumming around all day but this can be the case. Maximizing expected happiness could be working 10 hours a day so you end up earning so much money that you can afford things that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to and the happiness these things bring you far outweighs the long hours.
Also, when Polis says:
Life not alweys give what you need to survive, some people get depressed/kill themselves, that is not perfect mechanism of emotional manipulation of your behaviour by your genes. Not only it was never perfect but also it was develop for diferent environment then we have today. Also our genes "want" to survive that does not alweys means that they want to makes us happy.
I pretty much agree with this. Evolution has led to the overwhelming majority of people possessing a strong desire to live since those without such a basic characteristic are eradicated from the gene pool, probably without having passed their genes on. To me, this is the reason why people choose to live despite the hardships we all encounter; as for a meaning to life: I don't think there is anything special - it's merely whatever a particular individual wants to use to make living bearable.
|
OverTheUnder says: I understand where you are coming from.......but you know it's complete bs;( As you said, all of those beliefs are completely unfounded. Just like any religion or the belief in a supernatural God. Instead of saying I don't know to all of those questions, you are jumping to several answers that seem appealing to you....
why do we HAVE to have faith? I'm sure many people do but that isn't the point.. It is all very simple, if we don't know either way, then it is foolish to adapt some arbitrary moral law on how you think the universe works. You also happen to pick one that not only has no basis but makes no sense unless you believe in some sort of divine justice.
You might not be trying to say anything so extreme, but your choice of words bothers meT_T Reading your post gave me the same feeling I get when I hear people (religious or not) talk about how religion is for answering the questions that science can't like the why's. In the end all you are doing is giving up thinking and instead of admitting you don't know, you choose to think there is some objective "fairness" in the universe?
What? Hopefully I'm misunderstanding you but that last paragraph really seems like meaningless jargon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Part of what I am getting at is a shift in paradigm - a different way of thinking about things. I acknowledge that my point of view is not rational, and for many people here on TL.net who very openly and fiercely embrace rationality, this is an admission of being wrong, and, as you put it, embracing a system of thinking because it makes me feel good. The thing is, not everyone believes rational/logical thought universally arrives at truth. Some people believe, with all their being, that there are many ways of finding truth, and many ways of knowing, and many of those ways are beyond science and logic. Some of us also believe that the universe itself will always confound any attempt to obtain absolute knowledge - there will always be limits to what we can know.
Anyway, what I am saying is that I am essentially a post-Enlightenment thinker. I don't assume that reason always leads to truth, I don't assume that there is one absolute truth for any given situation, and I don't assume that reason is the only way to find truth or know the world.
So no, I'm not admitting that my beliefs are unfounded, I am just acknowledging that my ideas have no foundation in the way you and other strictly rational thinkers try to know and understand the world.
Yes, there are religious undertones to what I say, and I realize that offends a lot of people on TL.net. Still, I never said we "have" to have faith. I do believe faith is important, and you can choose to have faith or not. I also do not believe in any sort of spiritual heirarchy - ie 1) God, 2) humans, 3) animals, 4) plants, etc. So I'm not suggesting anyone worship anything. My "faith in life" is the result of recognizing my limitations and essentially worshipping what I perceive to be the endless beauty and mystery of reality.
Much of what I am getting at about "knowing" can be summed up very well in Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Ever read it?
Anyway, I am not out to convert anyone - that is not important to me in the slightest. Consider this post a form of sociological or psychological insight into someone who thinks differently than yourself.
|
On February 02 2008 00:39 Milton Friedman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 23:34 Hawk wrote:
Discipline is kind of important if you wanna do anything constructive in life?
I'll try and answer for Polis. The definition of 'constructive' in the sense that an activity is constructive or not depends on the perspective of the individual. To Polis there may be no constructive task that exists because essentially nothing matters since human life is fairly insignificant and there is nothing beyond death. Thus, all achievements become irrelevent to the person once they die, hence it is best to live life in a manner that gives you as much happiness as possible. This does not necessarily mean not working and slumming around all day but this can be the case. Maximizing expected happiness could be working 10 hours a day so you end up earning so much money that you can afford things that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to and the happiness these things bring you far outweighs the long hours. Also, when Polis says: Show nested quote +Life not alweys give what you need to survive, some people get depressed/kill themselves, that is not perfect mechanism of emotional manipulation of your behaviour by your genes. Not only it was never perfect but also it was develop for diferent environment then we have today. Also our genes "want" to survive that does not alweys means that they want to makes us happy. I pretty much agree with this. Evolution has led to the overwhelming majority of people possessing a strong desire to live since those without such a basic characteristic are eradicated from the gene pool, probably without having passed their genes on. To me, this is the reason why people choose to live despite the hardships we all encounter; as for a meaning to life: I don't think there is anything special - it's merely whatever a particular individual wants to use to make living bearable.
Yeah, I understand what you and him are saying about maximizing happiness. But what I'm saying is, no matter what you do, you still need to eat. And once you become an adult and have no parents to shelter you, you need to find means of money so that you can get stuff to eat. Therefore, you're going to need to practice some form of discipline to get a job or do anything as means to put food on the table to live your life as you see fit.
|
Polis says: Why do you need discipline, or any other thing that is not pleasure to you? Only becouse world/your brain chemistry (or whatever that makes you feel like doing nothing/something that is not good for you in long run) is not perfect.
Being fat can make you go on diet and exercise but as well world could work in a way that you would be in psychical good shape whithout it.
Life not alweys give what you need to survive, some people get depressed/kill themselves, that is not perfect mechanism of emotional manipulation of your behaviour by your genes. Not only it was never perfect but also it was develop for diferent environment then we have today. Also our genes "want" to survive that does not alweys means that they want to makes us happy.
------------------------------------------------
First of all, when I wrote my 6 points here, you have to realize they are from a piece of paper that I put up on my wall to remind myself of what I feel is important. I absolutely never intended for them to be "commandments" that others must take seriously and live by - that is strictly your choice. Perhaps these points will help you, and perhaps not.
In other words, you don't have to embrace discipline at all if you do not prefer to. That is purely your choice. I spoke of discipline because I know that when my life feels out of control and painful, discipline gives me some foundation to hold on to to keep my life together. (Ironically, I just wrote a blog the other day on the importance of relaxing and taking it easy.)
Essentially, think of the steps I wrote above partially as coping mechanisms for dealing with pain. That is why I wrote of them here - they are a method of coping with pain and unfairness and so on.
The higher steps I wrote down (5 and 6, certainly) reflect my spiritual/philosophical outlook on life. I worship the universe and what I perceive to be its infinite wisdom and beauty. It does indeed take effort to appreciate these qualities of the universe from our ever so small and seemingly helpless position as humans. Things like suicide and depression and genocide are all very real, and on one level I certainly would like to do all I can to prevent these things and help others who are in pain, but on another level, I try to acknowledge the beauty of these things as well.
Think of it like this: death is inherent in reality. Things die all the time. From the perspective of the thing that must ultimately die, and perhaps live in pain and die in pain, this can be pure horror and tragedy. But consider how death so often nurtures other life. The death of stars eventually led to the birth of new stars, the birth of planets, and the birth of humans! The death of plants and animals allows us to eat. Organisms die and nurture the soil. Even our own death and our own pain can serve a higher purpose - one that maybe we cannot even begin to see or comprehend.
What looks so horrible and tragic on one level may be beautiful, even orgasmic, on another level. Still, in my human form, I do what I can to ease suffering and to be good to others. I also try to avoid pain.
|
Much of my thinking is highly based in Zen, or at least my highly amateur interpretations of it. So, to better illustrate where my faith comes from, consider this Zen story:
The Farmer’s Luck
There was once an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years.
One day, his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit.
“Such bad luck,” they said sympathetically.
“Maybe,” the farmer replied.
The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it two other wild horses.
“Such good luck!” the neighbors exclaimed.
“Maybe,” replied the farmer.
The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown off, and broke his leg.
Again, the neighbors came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.
“Such bad luck,” they said.
“Maybe,” answered the farmer.
The day after that, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army to fight in a war. Seeing that the son’s leg was broken, they passed him by.
“Such good luck!” cried the ‘ neighbors.
“Maybe,” said the farmer.
|
United States22883 Posts
I see it as the farmer's luck doesn't exist. Every action has both positive and negative consequences, which of course is relative to whoever it affects. Some people acknowledge more of the positive and others more of the negative, I believe a balance is best.
I don't think there is an inherent purpose to life. Some might be discomforted by that and assume there is no purpose, but that's not the case. We can create our own man-made purpose and through that find inspiration in our lives.
|
Right Jibba, to put it another way, the idea is that there is a sort of higher order (not to imply a conscious order necessarily) to things than what we immediately perceive. The story hints at thinking BEYOND luck/bad luck, and beyond good and evil. This "beyond" is the ultimate goodness of the universe, that I spoke of in my earlier posts. It is what I have faith in.
Jibba, I also agree that there is no inherent purpose to life in the sense that humans tend to concern themselves with. I do have faith that there is purpose and abundant meaning, although I am not sure what that is. That is what I was getting at in my earlier post about "a hand is a hand, an eye is an eye, a hand should not concern itself with being an eye, and an eye should not concern itself with being a hand." In other words, the perfect order and wisdom of the universe is beyond our understanding. That order and wisdom arises by every little part of the larger whole doing what it does - living its nature.
|
United States22883 Posts
Right Jibba, to put it another way, the idea is that there is a sort of higher order (not to imply a conscious order necessarily) to things than what we immediately perceive. The story hints at thinking BEYOND luck/bad luck, and beyond good and evil. This "beyond" is the ultimate goodness of the universe, that I spoke of in my earlier posts. It is what I have faith in. See, but that's still ultimate goodness. I don't think things happen for a reason, they just happen.
|
This is one of the contradictions that I spoke of much earlier... I am talking about a goodness that is beyond goodness. In other words, there is kind of a strange way of thinking I am hinting at.
I am not speaking of a heaven or a God or a happy-ever-after story... I am saying that the Universe as it is, in all it's meaningless glory, is ultimate goodness. It is kind of playing with the word "good," in a way. I'm not necessarily in disagreement with you, or rather, I probably am, but for the purposes of this exact moment of discussion, I'm not.
|
Good and bad are meanings and interpretations. Going beyond that is going beyond interpretation, so in a sense, the goodness I am talking about is meaningless, or meaninglessness is goodness. (The language breaks down here, and that is what I am talking about.... "beyondness")
|
United States22883 Posts
|
Something like that, Jibba.
|
What I meant by discipline is that God could create world where it is not needed, or where you don't have to exercise to feel good. I am not saying that exercising in our reality is bad idea. There is difference between saying what is good to do in our world, and claiming that our world is perfect. I don't want to judge what is good or bad arbitrary, some people may like to work allot and have big salary, some people care more about sex then others, some fall in love often to others it doesn't happen things that you want aren't your choice, at least not fully.
Discipline exist becouse we live in non perfect world, if you would be perfectly programmed for your life that you would just do what you like all the time, and that would be the action for you long term also.
|
The way I understand it, much of Zen and Buddhism is not explainable in words. Stories such as these are not necessarily meant to convey messages as much as they are meant to stimulate thought and have people contemplate the story. I'm summarizing the words of a monk here, but I think the gist is correct.
Something like Zen appeals a lot more to me because no one's really telling you what to believe. They leave you to derive the meaning and come to your own conclusions. I feel that Zen Buddhism relies on the human's ability to think rationally, which is very uncommon for any belief system.
That being said, I am currently not a Buddhist. I find Dharma talks to be very interesting, and the philosophies as far as I understand are appealing. However, until I feel that I understand the true nature of Zen, I cannot say that I am Buddhist.
|
On February 01 2008 13:16 ZaplinG wrote:
But why would God want to drop nukes on us in the first place? If he wanted us dead, he could have just not created us.
We are alive, but for what reason? To worship God? Wouldn't that make God selfish and a sinner himself?
Religion has always sounded too crazy to me.
Well, you see God is for justice/punishment of sins, but he also wanted to share his love with us.
So he has a fine balance in between justice and grace/love. And, God is God, he doesn't need our worship, he just wants it. If you were God you could be worshipped also, but you aren't.
God wants us to both fear, believe, love, and trust him. This basically starts when you feel called to do something by him such as at a church invitation to the alter. I challenge you to go to a Baptist church (They seem to have the Bible down, other denominations have many controverial beliefs, ussually by misinterpreting, adding, or taking away scripture from an already perfect Bible.), and maybe ask the pastor how you can know God, or you can trust in him now, if you want to. All you have to do is trust and believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that he died on the cross for your sins, you do have to be called by God to do this by God, so when you are convicted (Like a heavy feeling in your chest), then it is possible.
God doesn't want us dead. Adam and Eve messed up, and caused the worst disease that effects all of humanity; sin, and without trusting in Jesus, it turns into eternal damnation.
|
Slithe, good post. "The Tao (true way) that can be spoken is not the Tao."
Zen koans and the like are meant to point to the way, but they aren't the way. It doesn't mean they can't be insightful or helpful though.
I feel essentially as you do, and agree with the things you said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
