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The issue of "equivalent exchange"; a concept of justice and fairness. Above all, it's one of the factors that differentiate the life of one person from another. In Full Metal Alchemist, the whole plot of the story revolves around this concept of "equivalent exchange": in order to gain something, something else of equal value must be lost, and vice-versa. But is this the real case in our world? As rotten and decayed as our world may seem, does this concept exist in everyone's life? And if it doesn't, how do we define fairness? Yet most important of all, if fairness is merely a term used to initiate that small spark of non-existent hope in life, where is God? And what is His sense of the Kingdom of Christ where fairness does not exist? This is the controversal topic I would like to discuss with you guys:
Humanity is on the cliff of deterioration. Poverty, famine, genocide, racism, etc. If God is fair, why does so many people suffer needlessly for others' sins? Does their continuous suffering awaken us and help us to realize the magnitude of our sins? The answer is no, it doesn't. Yet why? Why are these pitiful people always on the edge of death? Is this merely God's plan to sneer at mankind as we continue down the road to extinction? These people live in huts, with dirty water and barely any food to survive, while on the other parts of the world, greed and power overtake the heart of man. Why are these sinful men not suffering? And why do innocent people have to suffer instead?
As we, the commoners, live everyday of our busy lives trying to fulfill and accomplish our goals, do we always get what we want? The numerous people who study countless hours every night for an exam, or trying to get into a good university, those people who try their best to make their lives better, to support a family, are they repaid for their efforts? Why do these strong sparks of dreams must be extinguished in a flash, and why do they always fail regardless of how much they contribute to improve their lives? Where is the concept of equivalent exchange? Countless of hours of sacrifice for what? Most of the time, merely for the inevitable disappointment as a result. How can fairness be explained? So much effort and determination, and sometimes it is all for nothing.
If the concept of equivalent exchange is a disillusion, what is the point of life? Do we always have to try so hard just so we can fail miserably? Where is God, and His sense of fairness? If I, no, if "we" cannot dictate the reasoning behind this mystery, why do the most of us embed our hopes and prayers to God? Is God merely a concept made up by humankind to excuse themselves and forgive themselves from sin? Just like the concept of equivalent exchange..?
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(Without God) : Life isnt fair
(With God) : Life is fair
I dont really want to explain myself
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
2EZ
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in b4 religious discussion
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I think God is fair, but we are just too retarded to see all the opportunities he keeps giving us and just whine about how life is unfair and blame it on how God sucks at his "job".  jk
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Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent This is the fallacy of epicurius' statement.
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With God, he could do anything he wants, he is being fair in not blowing us up with nukes every time we sin.
Jesus died on the cross so that we basically wouldn't live in an eternal nuke drop. He died to obey God, and get us away from our punishment, only if we believe.
In order to do that, he had to die and rise again. It was painful, and Jesus Christ/God didn't deserve it. We deserve Hell, and yet Christ took everyone's place, and all that is needed is to trust in him.
The book of mark states it pretty plainly;
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Believe. That is all you must do to be saved, Baptism, is just a sort of ceremony, to show you will try and live a new life.
God is merciful, and life is fair, because he has to jugle justice and love/grace perfectly, he will not destroy everyone quite yet, untill everyone has had the chance to repent. Evil is punished just not instantly or forgiven through Jesus.
Romans 3: 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
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But why would God want to drop nukes on us in the first place? If he wanted us dead, he could have just not created us.
We are alive, but for what reason? To worship God? Wouldn't that make God selfish and a sinner himself?
Religion has always sounded too crazy to me.
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Really, it depends on how you assess "gaining" or "losing" something. It's really easy to do with mass/energy, because you can measure it, and conclude that the net difference is always 0.
Is life a zero-sum game? I could suggest that death will take away anything good, and therefore be as much of a bad thing as what you're losing by dying, or will take away anything bad, and therefore be as much of a good thing as what you're escaping by dying.
If we're going to ignore death, then I can't see how you can resolve it objectively. Let's say one guy spends 2 careful hours making an immaculate mud pie. Another guy does the same, except his ingredients are apples. They put in the same amount, but the guy who made the apple pie ends up with a meal. This seems to imply that no, you don't necessarily get what you put in. Unless you really like mud pies.
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Bottleabuser mentioned a useful term: zero-sum game. This is what you seem to be talking about at times in your post.
Life does not always work out in zero-sum games; often it does not. A simple example is sex, where by giving you also receive, and everyone is presumably better off for the whole thing. Multitudes of other examples exist.
Your post seems to arise from a sad state of mind. It is true that people suffer and that events often are not fair. What does this say about God? I prefer not to dwell on that, as I see no evidence for the existence of God (though I don't deny the possibility that there may be such a thing, unlikely as it seems to me, at least in the conventional sense.) It is true, life is not fair, no matter how beautiful or how horrible we perceive it to be. Some people who seem to deserve so much out of life may suffer, while those who seem to deserve nothing are seemingly rewarded.
But I prefer to believe there is some kind of internal direction and purpose in the universe. My view point is wholy irrational, but after a point, I think some people realize that rationality is only of so much use, and when you give up seeking absolute truth, usefulness becomes more important. I prefer to think that everything that happens is for the best, including the most horrific suffering. The purpose or goodness of many things is hidden from us, but I remind myself that many bad things that have happened to me have led me to other places that I found to be very wonderful. Many bad things have made me a stronger and wiser person, and some bad things have led me to a place where I can better help others.
I also do believe strongly in karma, although perhaps not quite literally in the way that many people understand it. I think we must live in the world we create, and so creating a world of backstabbing and injustice means we have to live in such a world, and that means none of us is safe. We owe it to ourselves as well as to others to live compassionately and considerately. It's not always easy.
Anyway, a bunch of somewhat disjointed and non-explained thoughts, but mostly I'd just like to say that it is nice to see someone considering openly and honestly some rather heavy thoughts. Happy to discuss more here or in private. Peace.
Nick
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Inky, it can be very appealing to think that bad things can ultimately be seen as good in a way, such as by making the people suffering stronger or better people for the experience.
I think it's also very dangerous.
It will often (not necessarily, of course...) lead to acceptance of bad things, and sometimes even lead to people embracing bad things (I'm sure you've seen some religious nut proclaiming that God is helping the African children somehow by starving them). But acceptance of a bad thing is, I think, stupid and hurtful.
Recognize what's bad and what's good, work on reducing or eliminating the former while increasing the latter. That's hard, that takes effort, and it's not always clear how to go about doing it. It may even be ultimately futile. However, I much prefer this approach.
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life is to die, and to die, you must live life.
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Robert A. Heinlein:
The supreme irony of life is that no one gets out of it alive
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On February 01 2008 12:43 GeneralZap wrote:
With God, he could do anything he wants, he is being fair in not blowing us up with nukes every time we sin.
Jesus died on the cross so that we basically wouldn't live in an eternal nuke drop. He died to obey God, and get us away from our punishment, only if we believe.
In order to do that, he had to die and rise again. It was painful, and Jesus Christ/God didn't deserve it. We deserve Hell, and yet Christ took everyone's place, and all that is needed is to trust in him.
The book of mark states it pretty plainly;
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Believe. That is all you must do to be saved, Baptism, is just a sort of ceremony, to show you will try and live a new life.
God is merciful, and life is fair, because he has to jugle justice and love/grace perfectly, he will not destroy everyone quite yet, untill everyone has had the chance to repent. Evil is punished just not instantly or forgiven through Jesus.
Romans 3: 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
well maybe you do....... I however feel that no one on this earth is deserving of a place like hell, even if it is imaginary;D
"the book of mark states it pretty plainly"....you know thats how most people feel about alot of passages in the bible. Interesting how there are so many interpretations........don't worry, I'm sure YOURS are right. Not that we will ever know since we aren't arguing facts or presenting evidence, merely belief;)
to the OP:
people ask questions like this because the world as we know it seems to be incompatible with the Christian God or other gods that are suppose to be all powerful and all loving. Most will cite "free will" as an answer to this problem.
The fact of the matter is, free will is completely incompatible with an all powerful all knowing God.
People just like to overlook this obvious hole in their answer. Some try to explain how free will and an omnipotent God can exist and fail miserably;( ( of course Free Will doesn't really exist anyway in any objective sense. )
More directly to the point, I don't know if you were using "God" in a metaphorical sense or not, but looking at what you posted, what conclusions would you come to after reading that? I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
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I essentially agree with you BottleAbuser. The ideas I put forward are ideas to embrace when there is nothing more you can do. It is essentially a mindset that recognizes limitation and mortality.
I wrote some things I try to keep in mind in hard times on a piece of paper which I keep on my bedroom wall. These take the form of absolute statements, but actually result from the fact that I gave up my positivist/rational ways, and have embraced functionality. Not to say my views are cynical, however - I do believe what I say. Here:
1) When life is hard or painful, embrace discipline (exercise, learning, structure)
2) Struggle and pain make us stronger
3) Life gives us what we need - sometimes we need pain.
4) Contradictions are inherent in reality (possibility of multiple contradictory truths)
5) The Universe is fundamentally good. (Zen/Hindu/etc idea which is "cosmic consciousness")
6) Evil may be part of goodness, but I do not dwell on this; I serve the greatest good I know. An eye should not try to be a hand, and a hand should not try to be an eye. I do my part for the greater whole. (Let go of trying to control and understand everything - mystery is built in to life).
If you have read any of my other blogs, you know I advocate strongly for personal responsibility and action to ease worldwide suffering and to promote goodness. I don't have the attitude that we should give up caring or give up doing anything. But we reach points where pain is inevitable or unavoidable, or where our power and abilities simply are not enough. At that point, we have to be able to let go. That's all I am really trying to say. Perhaps you are hinting at a sort of slippery slope that my ideas live on, but all that means is that as humans we are condemned to choose. There is no absolute, consistent, answer to anything. We have to be able to let go and have faith (I think.) (Note: I am an atheist.)
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I used to think about the idea of fairness a lot too. Life just seems so drastically unfair in so many ways. After a while, I came to this conclusion...
Life is unfair. It's a fact, and there's no two ways about it. Any time spent complaining about how unfair life is can be better spent aiming to fix the said unfairness. Just do the best you can with the hand you've been dealt.
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chiming in randomally again
Taking a look at the life of Christ....
born in poverty, ignored and hated by the one group that should have accepted him (the religious leaders), his friends betrayed him and ran away in his time of greatest need, and ultimately for everything good he did he was abandoned by everyone and killed in a horribly brutal way.
I don't think the christian message is one that life is fair. The message is "love your enemies", have mercy for others because God has more than just mercy for you, he has grace.
(mercy meaning not receiving what one deserves and grace meaning being given something one does not deserve)
The question is then, is this just? Is this justice? Shouldn't everything be fair? And if everything is fair what is up with this?
Be sure you don't go down the justice line too far though because then there are questions like... shouldn't every white person in america be enslaved by black people for hundreds of years to be just/fair? Shouldn't white people be kicked out of the US and be ruled and then almost annihilated by native americans? Of course you could insert any number of things in here.
I think most of our stomachs turn at the idea of real justice or fairness. But really I feel like that question is more a selfish question... why arent things better for me? Why aren't people who harass me punished? Why do I deserve this?
Is that question bad? Is the Christian ideal an answer to that dilemma?
Never the less I dont think its accurate to say that "God is fair". At the very least I dont know how that idea ever came about.
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Huh. I'm sure that my views conflict with yours, but they do so many levels I don't know where to start. I'll just post my own opinions, and we can sort out the incompatibilities later.
I don't know what justice is. I don't know why people think it's desirable. I don't think it's necessary. I guess you could say that I don't see the big deal with this "fairness" thing, too.
I'm not saying we should let people run rampant, doing things without retribution. We should still lock up dangerous people... but not to punish them. The reason we should lock up a dangerous person would be to prevent future harm by that person to others. If the only reasonable way to prevent future harm is to kill him, so be it. But not for revenge, not to make him pay for it.
It wouldn't be likely to prevent future harm to mirror past offenses, because the mirrored actions would again be mirrored, ad nauseum.
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On February 01 2008 15:51 nA.Inky wrote:
I essentially agree with you BottleAbuser. The ideas I put forward are ideas to embrace when there is nothing more you can do. It is essentially a mindset that recognizes limitation and mortality.
I wrote some things I try to keep in mind in hard times on a piece of paper which I keep on my bedroom wall. These take the form of absolute statements, but actually result from the fact that I gave up my positivist/rational ways, and have embraced functionality. Not to say my views are cynical, however - I do believe what I say. Here:
1) When life is hard or painful, embrace discipline (exercise, learning, structure)
2) Struggle and pain make us stronger
3) Life gives us what we need - sometimes we need pain.
4) Contradictions are inherent in reality (possibility of multiple contradictory truths)
5) The Universe is fundamentally good. (Zen/Hindu/etc idea which is "cosmic consciousness")
6) Evil may be part of goodness, but I do not dwell on this; I serve the greatest good I know. An eye should not try to be a hand, and a hand should not try to be an eye. I do my part for the greater whole. (Let go of trying to control and understand everything - mystery is built in to life).
If you have read any of my other blogs, you know I advocate strongly for personal responsibility and action to ease worldwide suffering and to promote goodness. I don't have the attitude that we should give up caring or give up doing anything. But we reach points where pain is inevitable or unavoidable, or where our power and abilities simply are not enough. At that point, we have to be able to let go. That's all I am really trying to say. Perhaps you are hinting at a sort of slippery slope that my ideas live on, but all that means is that as humans we are condemned to choose. There is no absolute, consistent, answer to anything. We have to be able to let go and have faith (I think.) (Note: I am an atheist.)
I understand where you are coming from.......but you know it's complete bs;( As you said, all of those beliefs are completely unfounded. Just like any religion or the belief in a supernatural God. Instead of saying I don't know to all of those questions, you are jumping to several answers that seem appealing to you....
why do we HAVE to have faith? I'm sure many people do but that isn't the point.. It is all very simple, if we don't know either way, then it is foolish to adapt some arbitrary moral law on how you think the universe works. You also happen to pick one that not only has no basis but makes no sense unless you believe in some sort of divine justice.
You might not be trying to say anything so extreme, but your choice of words bothers meT_T Reading your post gave me the same feeling I get when I hear people (religious or not) talk about how religion is for answering the questions that science can't like the why's. In the end all you are doing is giving up thinking and instead of admitting you don't know, you choose to think there is some objective "fairness" in the universe?
What? Hopefully I'm misunderstanding you but that last paragraph really seems like meaningless jargon
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Lifes a bitch then you dieeee
that's why we get highhhhhh
not fair in the slightest, otherwise id be done with school, wouldnt be up at 8 to go to work and would be in mexico on a beach all year round
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EPT
