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On January 29 2008 20:49 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Why don't christians find ways to die when they "know" for a fact that when they do they will end up in a utopia where you can only be euphoric because its fuckin heaven?
So that we are not selfish, and point out the way to Heaven. Only through believing/trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
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On January 31 2008 07:51 man wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2008 17:44 TechniQ.UK wrote:
My next question, if I may, concerns different religions. Hindus, Muslims, Pagans the world over have had similar experiences with a god or gods. They, being in a different part of the world or living at a different time, chalk their experience up to a different entity. Presumably they are all wrong, what makes you think you are correct?
The way it works is that diety's like hindu gods, allah etc... (and allah is not the god of the bible so lets not even go there) they are a front for the devil, any man made false gods, or idols such as rocks etc... that are used in islam, this is also a front for the devil, therefore the belief and power from this worship goes to him and not the true living God of the bible, this is why its a sin. Now any experiences they got from their belief in islam, hinduism etc... is basically this, the devil throwing his worshippers a bone, to keep them believing and to rail them in deeper and deeper to do his bidding, this is how we get suicide bombers, islamic extremists. I mean how does the living God of the bible go from saying hey, your all saved by Yah'shua so stop sinning and hating, to sending another prophet muhammmad who is instructing people to kill and to go crazy and get angry for their religion, as i said before its also said that allah went down to hell to torture souls from time to time, do you really think his Holyness, the greatest being the most Holy and powerful and kind and loving God the father, went down to hell to satisfy his amusement? Ofcourse not. Allah is the God of the Bible, just as the God of the Bible is the God of the Torah. Each one just added their own crap to what was already there.
There is one God. If there was another God against a God, then he would no longer be omnipotent, for he could not destroy another.
As far as the Trinity, the Trinity is God, God can make himself into a flesh/image, or be a spirit.
God is omnipresent, he can be anywhere, anytime, in many different places if he wants. Jesus, Holy Ghost/Spirit, and Father, are in general God.
God can time travel. Let me find some instances where people believe Old Testament figures were Jesus giving hope to the Jews, and it is true. Every time someone worships an angel they are punished, but if they worship God, they are not. I'll try and find some verses soon.
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On February 01 2008 08:03 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 07:58 ilj.psa wrote:On January 31 2008 10:54 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2008 08:05 ilj.psa wrote:
sure you would, we now understand the concept of right/wrong thanks to the set of law/punish system that god made for us to acquire a moral compass on whats wrong to do and right. So you support the stoning of friends/family/anyone who tries to lead you astray from Christianity? At certain points in the Bible, Jesus supports the Golden Rule, but there are many other religions who do a much more consistent job of teaching love/compassion, and there are clearly points within the Bible where the word of God is NOT compassionate or forgiving. Do you believe slavery is morally admissible because the New Testament does? These are contradictions that you cannot ignore, and leaving them up for "interpretation" in the 21st century is not a viable option, because they are still moral according to the word of God. If you believe they are immoral, which I hope you do, then you're doing so based on a set of morals that are independent of the Bible. Belief set Z is consistent with set Y in the Bible, but inconsistent with set X in the Bible. You support set Z, therefore you reject set X. That's fine, but clearly set Z does not exist because the Bible says it does. Thats a misleading argument, since Slavery was like a job and a way of life back then in the Roman empire which is not at all like slavery is today. Ill give you a link to read if your interested about this and if you have enough time: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html It wasn't a job. I agree that it can be misleading because American slavery was uniquely fueled by hatred, whereas most ancient forms of slavery were essentially with the use of POWs. With that said, it's still control of another human being. You can go beyond the slavery example. There's plenty of other examples in the Bible of support of unscrupulous behavior that most people would find despicable by our current moral standards.
Slavery in the past was essencially that the servant worked for another man in his home, the servant worked for him in exchange for food, cloth, place to sleep, roof to live etc.That way both gained something. Not like we know slavery now. The bible accept this as a way of life. and also specifically demands that the person would not be threated badly, hurt, beaten, anything unhuman.
But those people who violate this obviously God condemned them "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1).
There were also a lot of verses in the bible were it condemned slavery which i think your not taking into account and cherrypicking since some slave-owners threated them bad thus violating the word of God.
+ Show Spoiler +Against forced Hebrew enslavement:
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
Against returning escaped slaves:
"You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him." (Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
Against a specific incident by foreigners enslaving and selling Hebrews:
"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because she took captive whole communities and sold them to Edom, I will send fire upon the walls of Gaza that will consume her fortresses." (Amos 1:6-7)
[edit] Apostle Paul on slavery in the Roman Empire
Slave traders condemned:
"... law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God." (1 Timothy 1: 9-11)
Slaves should gain their freedom and not become slaves:
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people; similarly, those who were free when called are Christ's slaves. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." (I Corinthians 7:21-23, NIV)
Christianity makes no distinctions in the worthiness of all Christians, including slaves:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
"...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:11)
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Jesus met Joshua, and Joshua worshipped him, and wasn't rebuked or punished, so it was obiously Jesus/God.
Joshua5:13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
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Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." JESUS SUPPORTS BEATING SLAVES
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
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On February 01 2008 09:55 man wrote:
Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." JESUS SUPPORTS BEATING SLAVES
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
eh wtf post the REST OF THE VERSE instead of cherry picking, or dont post anything.
2:43 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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3:5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
3:6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
3:7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken [it].
(its The Justice of the Lord, note that he is not encouraging it, towards people who had children of Judah as slaves)
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United States22883 Posts
On February 01 2008 08:30 ilj.psa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 08:03 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2008 07:58 ilj.psa wrote:On January 31 2008 10:54 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2008 08:05 ilj.psa wrote:
sure you would, we now understand the concept of right/wrong thanks to the set of law/punish system that god made for us to acquire a moral compass on whats wrong to do and right. So you support the stoning of friends/family/anyone who tries to lead you astray from Christianity? At certain points in the Bible, Jesus supports the Golden Rule, but there are many other religions who do a much more consistent job of teaching love/compassion, and there are clearly points within the Bible where the word of God is NOT compassionate or forgiving. Do you believe slavery is morally admissible because the New Testament does? These are contradictions that you cannot ignore, and leaving them up for "interpretation" in the 21st century is not a viable option, because they are still moral according to the word of God. If you believe they are immoral, which I hope you do, then you're doing so based on a set of morals that are independent of the Bible. Belief set Z is consistent with set Y in the Bible, but inconsistent with set X in the Bible. You support set Z, therefore you reject set X. That's fine, but clearly set Z does not exist because the Bible says it does. Thats a misleading argument, since Slavery was like a job and a way of life back then in the Roman empire which is not at all like slavery is today. Ill give you a link to read if your interested about this and if you have enough time: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html It wasn't a job. I agree that it can be misleading because American slavery was uniquely fueled by hatred, whereas most ancient forms of slavery were essentially with the use of POWs. With that said, it's still control of another human being. You can go beyond the slavery example. There's plenty of other examples in the Bible of support of unscrupulous behavior that most people would find despicable by our current moral standards. Slavery in the past was essencially that the servant worked for another man in his home, the servant worked for him in exchange for food, cloth, place to sleep, roof to live etc.That way both gained something. Not like we know slavery now. The bible accept this as a way of life. and also specifically demands that the person would not be threated badly, hurt, beaten, anything unhuman. But those people who violate this obviously God condemned them "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1). There were also a lot of verses in the bible were it condemned slavery which i think your not taking into account and cherrypicking since some slave-owners threated them bad thus violating the word of God. + Show Spoiler +Against forced Hebrew enslavement:
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
Against returning escaped slaves:
"You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him." (Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
Against a specific incident by foreigners enslaving and selling Hebrews:
"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because she took captive whole communities and sold them to Edom, I will send fire upon the walls of Gaza that will consume her fortresses." (Amos 1:6-7)
[edit] Apostle Paul on slavery in the Roman Empire
Slave traders condemned:
"... law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God." (1 Timothy 1: 9-11)
Slaves should gain their freedom and not become slaves:
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people; similarly, those who were free when called are Christ's slaves. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." (I Corinthians 7:21-23, NIV)
Christianity makes no distinctions in the worthiness of all Christians, including slaves:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
"...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:11)
It was not a work exchange program like you're insinuating. Slaves were prisoners of war, people who were conquered. Historically, we know the Hebrews weren't enslaved by the Egyptians. And you're just pointing out more of the contradictions within the Bible. You simply can't agree with "eye for an eye" while promoting forgiveness and redemption.
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I already addressed that point that The Old testament was God's justice,law, and the New Testament we can see God forgiveness and redemption. I'll go to bed now, im tired :/
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On February 01 2008 12:02 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 08:30 ilj.psa wrote:On February 01 2008 08:03 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2008 07:58 ilj.psa wrote:On January 31 2008 10:54 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2008 08:05 ilj.psa wrote:
sure you would, we now understand the concept of right/wrong thanks to the set of law/punish system that god made for us to acquire a moral compass on whats wrong to do and right. So you support the stoning of friends/family/anyone who tries to lead you astray from Christianity? At certain points in the Bible, Jesus supports the Golden Rule, but there are many other religions who do a much more consistent job of teaching love/compassion, and there are clearly points within the Bible where the word of God is NOT compassionate or forgiving. Do you believe slavery is morally admissible because the New Testament does? These are contradictions that you cannot ignore, and leaving them up for "interpretation" in the 21st century is not a viable option, because they are still moral according to the word of God. If you believe they are immoral, which I hope you do, then you're doing so based on a set of morals that are independent of the Bible. Belief set Z is consistent with set Y in the Bible, but inconsistent with set X in the Bible. You support set Z, therefore you reject set X. That's fine, but clearly set Z does not exist because the Bible says it does. Thats a misleading argument, since Slavery was like a job and a way of life back then in the Roman empire which is not at all like slavery is today. Ill give you a link to read if your interested about this and if you have enough time: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html It wasn't a job. I agree that it can be misleading because American slavery was uniquely fueled by hatred, whereas most ancient forms of slavery were essentially with the use of POWs. With that said, it's still control of another human being. You can go beyond the slavery example. There's plenty of other examples in the Bible of support of unscrupulous behavior that most people would find despicable by our current moral standards. Slavery in the past was essencially that the servant worked for another man in his home, the servant worked for him in exchange for food, cloth, place to sleep, roof to live etc.That way both gained something. Not like we know slavery now. The bible accept this as a way of life. and also specifically demands that the person would not be threated badly, hurt, beaten, anything unhuman. But those people who violate this obviously God condemned them "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1). There were also a lot of verses in the bible were it condemned slavery which i think your not taking into account and cherrypicking since some slave-owners threated them bad thus violating the word of God. + Show Spoiler +Against forced Hebrew enslavement:
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
Against returning escaped slaves:
"You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him." (Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
Against a specific incident by foreigners enslaving and selling Hebrews:
"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because she took captive whole communities and sold them to Edom, I will send fire upon the walls of Gaza that will consume her fortresses." (Amos 1:6-7)
[edit] Apostle Paul on slavery in the Roman Empire
Slave traders condemned:
"... law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God." (1 Timothy 1: 9-11)
Slaves should gain their freedom and not become slaves:
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people; similarly, those who were free when called are Christ's slaves. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." (I Corinthians 7:21-23, NIV)
Christianity makes no distinctions in the worthiness of all Christians, including slaves:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
"...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:11)
It was not a work exchange program like you're insinuating. Slaves were prisoners of war, people who were conquered. Historically, we know the Hebrews weren't enslaved by the Egyptians. And you're just pointing out more of the contradictions within the Bible. You simply can't agree with "eye for an eye" while promoting forgiveness and redemption.
oh and btw I dont know much about slaves back then, but if you ask me and they were indeed prisioners of war of the enemy, and they worked for them ( God said, to provide them with a good food,shelter,cloth and not treat bad and inhumane the enemy's prisioners) , we can see a much more forgiving/compassionate God.
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On February 01 2008 12:38 ilj.psa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 12:02 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2008 08:30 ilj.psa wrote:On February 01 2008 08:03 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2008 07:58 ilj.psa wrote:On January 31 2008 10:54 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2008 08:05 ilj.psa wrote:
sure you would, we now understand the concept of right/wrong thanks to the set of law/punish system that god made for us to acquire a moral compass on whats wrong to do and right. So you support the stoning of friends/family/anyone who tries to lead you astray from Christianity? At certain points in the Bible, Jesus supports the Golden Rule, but there are many other religions who do a much more consistent job of teaching love/compassion, and there are clearly points within the Bible where the word of God is NOT compassionate or forgiving. Do you believe slavery is morally admissible because the New Testament does? These are contradictions that you cannot ignore, and leaving them up for "interpretation" in the 21st century is not a viable option, because they are still moral according to the word of God. If you believe they are immoral, which I hope you do, then you're doing so based on a set of morals that are independent of the Bible. Belief set Z is consistent with set Y in the Bible, but inconsistent with set X in the Bible. You support set Z, therefore you reject set X. That's fine, but clearly set Z does not exist because the Bible says it does. Thats a misleading argument, since Slavery was like a job and a way of life back then in the Roman empire which is not at all like slavery is today. Ill give you a link to read if your interested about this and if you have enough time: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html It wasn't a job. I agree that it can be misleading because American slavery was uniquely fueled by hatred, whereas most ancient forms of slavery were essentially with the use of POWs. With that said, it's still control of another human being. You can go beyond the slavery example. There's plenty of other examples in the Bible of support of unscrupulous behavior that most people would find despicable by our current moral standards. Slavery in the past was essencially that the servant worked for another man in his home, the servant worked for him in exchange for food, cloth, place to sleep, roof to live etc.That way both gained something. Not like we know slavery now. The bible accept this as a way of life. and also specifically demands that the person would not be threated badly, hurt, beaten, anything unhuman. But those people who violate this obviously God condemned them "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1). There were also a lot of verses in the bible were it condemned slavery which i think your not taking into account and cherrypicking since some slave-owners threated them bad thus violating the word of God. + Show Spoiler +Against forced Hebrew enslavement:
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
Against returning escaped slaves:
"You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him." (Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
Against a specific incident by foreigners enslaving and selling Hebrews:
"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because she took captive whole communities and sold them to Edom, I will send fire upon the walls of Gaza that will consume her fortresses." (Amos 1:6-7)
[edit] Apostle Paul on slavery in the Roman Empire
Slave traders condemned:
"... law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God." (1 Timothy 1: 9-11)
Slaves should gain their freedom and not become slaves:
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people; similarly, those who were free when called are Christ's slaves. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." (I Corinthians 7:21-23, NIV)
Christianity makes no distinctions in the worthiness of all Christians, including slaves:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
"...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:11)
It was not a work exchange program like you're insinuating. Slaves were prisoners of war, people who were conquered. Historically, we know the Hebrews weren't enslaved by the Egyptians. And you're just pointing out more of the contradictions within the Bible. You simply can't agree with "eye for an eye" while promoting forgiveness and redemption. oh and btw I dont know much about slaves back then, but if you ask me and they were indeed prisioners of war of the enemy, and they worked for them ( God said, to provide them with a good food,shelter,cloth and not treat bad and inhumane the enemy's prisioners) , we can see a much more forgiving/compassionate God.
you have your arguments well rehearsed, but doesn't the fact that you have to go so far out of your way to try and explain away the clear contradictions in the bible act as a red flag?
The cherry picking is obvious to any objective observer....don't you think that you would be a little more critical of christianity if you didn't have so much stake in it?;/
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What does God do in his spare time? These are serious questions that I'm curious about, thanks GeneralZap for answering my last one.
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Here's my question. I don't believe in what you do. I don't buy it. I'll try to take some of your answers and explain why, and then maybe you can tell me what I'm missing, assuming that's your take on it.
On January 30 2008 03:44 TechniQ.UK wrote:
What is it in particular that convinces you Christianity is the one true religion?
i.e. What makes it more "correct" than any other religion in the world.
Basically if you look at the main stream religions that exist today, if you believe in a god you can narrow it down to about 4, Muslims worship a god who many christians including myself believe to be a small g (god) a diety that links back to satan why is this allah not the same as the God of the bible? 1. The bible teaches that Yah'shua (Jesus) was THE saviour, he was the messiah the prophet, however the quran contradicts this by saying that Yah'shua is only to come later a 2nd time and isnt as important as mohammed. The quran is like the 3rd or 4th holy book in the world in chronological order of the abrahamic religions, it came after Yah'shua returned to heaven and its saying that all the rules have changed and that in some twisted way that theres a new more important prophet and salvation comes through all this other stuff and doesn't mention faith much, also theres parts where the quran says that allah went down to hell and started torturing souls there for i think it was amusement?? Sorry but going from us being saved and being back in the love of the father and then out of nowhere its like all of this stuff, no im sorry but this isn't our Lord and saviour and its not the God of the bible. There is also a lot of evidence to show that most of islam is based on idolatry of like stones, which the bible also warns against.
This seems like repetition of the either-or fallacy to me. What makes you think the main religions have it right? What makes you think it has to be any of them? Maybe no one has it right yet, etc. We don't have to choose between the extant beliefs. And when you say "if you believe in a god", what does "a god" mean exactly? I think we have a pretty solid grasp on the physical world and what does "a god" mean, other than some "guy" we don't understand who does things "we can't see/know about" except through discredited methods of truth (such as "infallible" holy texts) and the like.
Saying other religions don't follow "The God Of The Bible" doesn't discredit them, let alone prove yours. Agree with this logic? I think we should be able to, which means your apparent reason for believing Christianity isn't a very good one (it starts with the presupposition that Christianity's take on divine texts is right, a priori).
What are good reasons for a belief in Christianity or indeed any religion? Which reasons are not valid reasons? Which reason(s) do you base your own beliefs upon?
Reasons in general:
You really think we got put on this earth, so perfectly designed, more intellegent and different than anything else here without a higher being to create us.
You think that if there was a superior designer he would be so un-intellegent to just be some floating spiritual substense that doesn't observe judge or communicate?
Anthropomorphic argument plus evolution solves this more elegantly than trusting old texts as revelations from God, agree or disagree? I have to assume you aren't clear on what these arguments show, or you wouldn't respond in this way. Or if not, I don't understand your answer in light of such readily available information.
There has been several people cured of illnesses and diseases in this day and age, an example would be doyle brunsons wife who was cured of cancer when a christian spiritual healer came to see her. There has also been supernatural events that people have experienced from all over the world.
Supernatural events that involve things like ghosts seem to stop dead when someone rebukes that spirit or demon in the name of Jesus.
Real Exorcisms....
Even if these are true, freak occurances can and do happen, and even if these are indeed the hand of supernatural beings at work, it doesn't imply the truth of any religion, extant or not. No?
My reasons :
I was an aethiest but turned Christian over 2 days where i just started having these thoughts which i did not think about myself, i believe in relevance to the bible that it was my calling from my Father or the Holy Spirit because of how sudden it was.
What if this happened to someone else, but regarding a different religion? I think experiences like this "back up" almost every religion on the globe, so you have to either accept theirs also, or discredit yours also. No?
I've witnessed the power of the Lord in me even before i read more than 5 pages of the bible, just by taking the prayer i was instantly changed in many ways.
I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i helped another Christian that was getting chased and bullied for being known to be an ultra-religious kinda geeky person where as i usually would be laughing at him as normal.
I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i asked for a specific thing to happen and it did 4 minutes later which was so specific that it can't have been a coincidence, the way it happened was like 1 in a million chance for this to happen the way it did.
I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i was in church for the first time and i was half way through a hymn when i got like complete happiness that was not my own, i was getting bored of the song and then it came to a part about Jesus rising from the dead and its like i didnt take much notice but when i sang that line a huge euphoria came over me. I couldn't stop smiling and just being happy for about 10 minutes straight, I'm pretty sure it was the Holy Spirit that day
It sounds like you have learned to interpret events and emotions in terms of The Lord or some kind of language like that, but again, this could be done for any religion I am pretty sure, so it is not compelling for anyone but yourself. Every religion offers stories like this as proof of their divinity.
So basically its my view that anyone who doesn't believe, make that leap of faith, take the sinners prayer in complete clean intentions and you will witness the power of the Lord in your own way, he will show you what you need to be shown, trust me, anyone who calls themselves aethiest etc... i don't think can truely justify themselves until you take that step and see what happens. Throw yourself out there and you will experience the truth first hand.
Well again, have you taken that step with all the other faiths out there, as well as "lack of faith" faiths? My hypothesis is that we can get people to believe in things through your method, that we know are false, that are completely made up, as long as we don't tell them that's what we're doing. This is not to say your religion is made up, only that the methods you're offering us to see the truth of your religion, are faulty methods that can lead us to false results.
So I am not convinced. Please help me out if you can.
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On February 01 2008 13:42 OverTheUnder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 12:38 ilj.psa wrote:On February 01 2008 12:02 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2008 08:30 ilj.psa wrote:On February 01 2008 08:03 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2008 07:58 ilj.psa wrote:On January 31 2008 10:54 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2008 08:05 ilj.psa wrote:
sure you would, we now understand the concept of right/wrong thanks to the set of law/punish system that god made for us to acquire a moral compass on whats wrong to do and right. So you support the stoning of friends/family/anyone who tries to lead you astray from Christianity? At certain points in the Bible, Jesus supports the Golden Rule, but there are many other religions who do a much more consistent job of teaching love/compassion, and there are clearly points within the Bible where the word of God is NOT compassionate or forgiving. Do you believe slavery is morally admissible because the New Testament does? These are contradictions that you cannot ignore, and leaving them up for "interpretation" in the 21st century is not a viable option, because they are still moral according to the word of God. If you believe they are immoral, which I hope you do, then you're doing so based on a set of morals that are independent of the Bible. Belief set Z is consistent with set Y in the Bible, but inconsistent with set X in the Bible. You support set Z, therefore you reject set X. That's fine, but clearly set Z does not exist because the Bible says it does. Thats a misleading argument, since Slavery was like a job and a way of life back then in the Roman empire which is not at all like slavery is today. Ill give you a link to read if your interested about this and if you have enough time: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html It wasn't a job. I agree that it can be misleading because American slavery was uniquely fueled by hatred, whereas most ancient forms of slavery were essentially with the use of POWs. With that said, it's still control of another human being. You can go beyond the slavery example. There's plenty of other examples in the Bible of support of unscrupulous behavior that most people would find despicable by our current moral standards. Slavery in the past was essencially that the servant worked for another man in his home, the servant worked for him in exchange for food, cloth, place to sleep, roof to live etc.That way both gained something. Not like we know slavery now. The bible accept this as a way of life. and also specifically demands that the person would not be threated badly, hurt, beaten, anything unhuman. But those people who violate this obviously God condemned them "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1). There were also a lot of verses in the bible were it condemned slavery which i think your not taking into account and cherrypicking since some slave-owners threated them bad thus violating the word of God. + Show Spoiler +Against forced Hebrew enslavement:
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
Against returning escaped slaves:
"You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him." (Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
Against a specific incident by foreigners enslaving and selling Hebrews:
"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because she took captive whole communities and sold them to Edom, I will send fire upon the walls of Gaza that will consume her fortresses." (Amos 1:6-7)
[edit] Apostle Paul on slavery in the Roman Empire
Slave traders condemned:
"... law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God." (1 Timothy 1: 9-11)
Slaves should gain their freedom and not become slaves:
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people; similarly, those who were free when called are Christ's slaves. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." (I Corinthians 7:21-23, NIV)
Christianity makes no distinctions in the worthiness of all Christians, including slaves:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
"...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:11)
It was not a work exchange program like you're insinuating. Slaves were prisoners of war, people who were conquered. Historically, we know the Hebrews weren't enslaved by the Egyptians. And you're just pointing out more of the contradictions within the Bible. You simply can't agree with "eye for an eye" while promoting forgiveness and redemption. oh and btw I dont know much about slaves back then, but if you ask me and they were indeed prisioners of war of the enemy, and they worked for them ( God said, to provide them with a good food,shelter,cloth and not treat bad and inhumane the enemy's prisioners) , we can see a much more forgiving/compassionate God. you have your arguments well rehearsed, but doesn't the fact that you have to go so far out of your way to try and explain away the clear contradictions in the bible act as a red flag? The cherry picking is obvious to any objective observer....don't you think that you would be a little more critical of christianity if you didn't have so much stake in it?;/
No im not going out of my way to explain anything, its just a common misconception and poor understanding on the bible that I feel needs to be addresed and explained.
I find that funny cause any objective observer would also read the rest of the verse and not pick words to intentionally mislead.
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Religion is one HUGE waste of time and money. That's about all. Have fun though. I used to go to Church until I realized how utterly worthless it is. You have to be EXTREMELY hard-headed to automatically believe that we just appeared here. Religious thinking, for the most part, is for people who don't want to try to UNDERSTAND, they just want to BELIEVE. Pretty fucking lazy in my opinion. Religion *WILL* be the end of this world, and it's already begun. It begun a long time ago.
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On February 01 2008 15:00 Dr.Dragoon wrote:
What does God do in his spare time? These are serious questions that I'm curious about, thanks GeneralZap for answering my last one.
he masterbates, duh.
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if the devil is evil then why does he punish evil people?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 14 2012 16:06 emc wrote:
if the devil is evil then why does he punish evil people?
Because they bumps age old threads.
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On April 14 2012 16:06 emc wrote:
if the devil is evil then why does he punish evil people?
If God is good why did He create the Devil?
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On April 14 2012 16:31 Jay Chou wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 16:06 emc wrote:
if the devil is evil then why does he punish evil people? If God is good why did He create the Devil?
Cause there is no good without evil.
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On April 14 2012 16:57 Artline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 16:31 Jay Chou wrote:On April 14 2012 16:06 emc wrote:
if the devil is evil then why does he punish evil people? If God is good why did He create the Devil? Cause there is no good without evil.
That is anime-philosophy.
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EPT
