EPT
Christianity Questions
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TechniQ.UK
United Kingdom391 Posts
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Krohm
Canada1857 Posts
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
On January 29 2008 17:35 Krohm wrote: Is God Omnipotent? See Christian Bible. Yeah. Which Christian denomination do you follow? It might help to know, because a lot of them have very widely varying doctrines. | ||
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chicken`
Germany3478 Posts
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Never Post
United Kingdom503 Posts
i.e. What makes it more "correct" than any other religion in the world. | ||
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
I am somewhat conflicted in my thoughts on religion, because I have at my fingertips thousands of years of information that proves that religion has had both an enormous positive influence, and an enormous negative influence, on the world. Which of those is larger is another question for another day. However, I realize that a good Christian upbringing, or a good religious upbringing of any sort, so long as it isn't a cult or something like that, is one way to create a moral upstanding citizen. I say one way because I believe Atheists/Agnostics (of which I would call myself the latter) can be moral and just people. (both of which I believe myself to be.) Also, conversely, things such as religious extremism can make what I consider to be a not moral/just person, as I believe killing/segregating/pressuring in any way in the name of god is an oxymoron. I am just curious what your personal take on this issue is, as I have never personally asked this question to someone of a religious background. I'm not sure if that was really a question, just looking for your thoughts. | ||
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chicken`
Germany3478 Posts
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
I read the Bible, but that thing doesnt make fucking sense at all. | ||
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mel_ee
2448 Posts
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On January 29 2008 18:47 chicken` wrote: how is christianity better than scientology? they're both brainwashing cults that promise things which are not proven to be true/exist. I'm atheist but according to this theorem not everything can be proven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorem | ||
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Wonders
Australia753 Posts
On January 29 2008 19:21 sundance wrote: I'm atheist but according to this theorem not everything can be proven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorem There's a difference something being proven empirically and being proven deductively (although there surely are things that can't be empirically proven, any universal positive, for example). And to my understanding Godel's Theorem just proved that in a sufficiently powerful logical system, it's always possible by encoding statements within statements to generate a statement that reduces to something along the lines of "This statement is false". To extrapolate this to "there's a limit to human reason" or whatever, usually while implying that we should just give up inquiry (although I know that you didn't say this) is quite a far stretch. | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11579 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On January 29 2008 20:49 CaucasianAsian wrote: Why don't christians find ways to die when they "know" for a fact that when they do they will end up in a utopia where you can only be euphoric because its fuckin heaven? Life is a gift given by God, and if we were to take it away in a selfish act of trying to get into a heavenly utopia, we would be throwing away this precious gift, which is why suicide is such a taboo in Christianity. It's not ours to take away. Do not take life for granted. | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On January 29 2008 18:33 Lemonwalrus wrote: This may come off as insulting, but please try to keep in mind that I am just curious and that I honestly respect your choice/way of life. (although it differs from mine personally) I am somewhat conflicted in my thoughts on religion, because I have at my fingertips thousands of years of information that proves that religion has had both an enormous positive influence, and an enormous negative influence, on the world. Which of those is larger is another question for another day. However, I realize that a good Christian upbringing, or a good religious upbringing of any sort, so long as it isn't a cult or something like that, is one way to create a moral upstanding citizen. I say one way because I believe Atheists/Agnostics (of which I would call myself the latter) can be moral and just people. (both of which I believe myself to be.) Also, conversely, things such as religious extremism can make what I consider to be a not moral/just person, as I believe killing/segregating/pressuring in any way in the name of god is an oxymoron. I am just curious what your personal take on this issue is, as I have never personally asked this question to someone of a religious background. I'm not sure if that was really a question, just looking for your thoughts. That wasn't really a question as much as it was your opinion that religion can be a mixed blessing. It's really easy to call yourself Christian. You can do it right now. You can call yourself a messenger of God and shoot a few people, then off yourself. Infact, it's been done a lot. You can spend an hour in church every week, but do nothing to get closer in your relationship with God, or apply the teachings in your life at all. Many people do this. They have the best intentions, but they think as long as they go each week, they're set. They're simply misguided and need a little direction. You can't have Christianity without power. Getting closer with God is the most fulfilling thing a person can do. It quenches a thirst that is so deep that it acts on the soul, aswell as the body. The very nature of this relationship brings with it, a lot of power. Power is not a bad thing. Abuse of power is. It's the same with Love. Love is powerful, and if you abuse it, terrible things can happen. Christianity isn't to blame for wars. Christianity explicitly teaches against all immoral acts, acts of hatred, acts of sin. To Kill, to manipulate, to abuse power. If a man uses things acts for themselves, you can be assured, nomatter what they call themselves, they are anything but close with God. | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
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Alethios
New Zealand2765 Posts
There is no empirical proof for any religion beliefs. The bible for instance, taken alone, proves nothing. (Conan the Barbarian also claims to be 100% fact). Additionally, we live in a time where things that once needed to be explained by a god(s), can now be explained without. However, people often believe for other reasons. Perhaps they've simply been brought up that way, slowly moving towards utter belief. Perhaps they, like my girlfriend, feel as if they have been in touch with God, that he has helped them in some way, emotionally or physically. Perhaps they believe for fear of the consequences of not believing (eternal suffering). Maybe one might feel as if their faith has helped them become a better person, as this is reason enough. Certainly, we cannot prove that God does not exist, as unlikely as his existence may seem, from empirical evidence. My question is this: What are good reasons for a belief in Christianity or indeed any religion? Which reasons are not valid reasons? Which reason(s) do you base your own beliefs upon? I realise your answer may need to be two-fold, once for Christianity and once for religions in general. Again, I apologise for the rather confrontational post. I'm not trying to sway your faith, but to broaden my knowledge. Oh, also... What is your favourite passage from the bible and why? | ||
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
On January 29 2008 20:15 Wonders wrote: And to my understanding Godel's Theorem just proved that in a sufficiently powerful logical system, it's always possible by encoding statements within statements to generate a statement that reduces to something along the lines of "This statement is false". Actually, with a powerful enough logic system, we can resolve these paradoxes in several ways. See wikipedia article here. Alethios, the traditional answer is "faith." You believe because you believe, not because of some other reason. | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On January 29 2008 18:47 chicken` wrote: how is christianity better than scientology? they're both brainwashing cults that promise things which are not proven to be true/exist. You can say that about every belief system. And if you honestly think that Christianity and Scientology are compareable, you haven't studied either enough. I'm not Christian, but its a silly comparison. Its like those people who compare Islam to a cult or Buddhism to Satanism. Just ignorant. | ||
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Schones_Chaos
United States226 Posts
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Wonders
Australia753 Posts
On January 29 2008 22:01 BottleAbuser wrote: Actually, with a powerful enough logic system, we can resolve these paradoxes in several ways. See wikipedia article here. I know that this is getting a little sidetracked, but just need to clarify. I meant that every complex consistent logical system has its own "Liar Paradox". It doesn't have to be in particular "This statement is false", just something that can't be resolved by the system. On January 29 2008 22:49 FieryBalrog wrote: Atheists can be morally upstanding citizens. However, such atheists are essentially following and investing in a fundamentally religious and non-rational belief system. There is no logical, coherent basis for many of the moral principles we take for granted. All of moral philosophy is dedicated to coming up with such a basis. | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On January 29 2008 22:49 FieryBalrog wrote: Atheists can be morally upstanding citizens. However, such atheists are essentially following and investing in a fundamentally religious and non-rational belief system. There is no logical, coherent basis for many of the moral principles we take for granted. You can say that about every belief system. And if you honestly think that Christianity and Scientology are compareable, you haven't studied either enough. I'm not Christian, but its a silly comparison. Its like those people who compare Islam to a cult or Buddhism to Satanism. Just ignorant. his comparison was fine for this purpose;/ The point is that some religions may be more agreeable with society but when it comes to evidence in their case, all are left wanting:O | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32056 Posts
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f0rgiv3n
United States112 Posts
On January 29 2008 21:24 Alethios wrote: Sorry about the rather blunt opening, it gets better. There is no empirical proof for any religion beliefs. The bible for instance, taken alone, proves nothing. (Conan the Barbarian also claims to be 100% fact). Additionally, we live in a time where things that once needed to be explained by a god(s), can now be explained without. The bible taken alone, proves nothing-- In my opinion I believe it proves everything, everything about the human race. This is one reason why I personally believe in Christianity. Reading through the bible, the bible is the only religious book that shows the disgusting and disturbing ways of how we all are. Reading through the bible you'll find things such as murder, rape, stealing, and lots of other things that you would think religions would want to hide. Another thing about the bible is unlike all other religious texts it was written by 40 different authors over 1600 years. 1600 YEARS! Can you believe that? Yet reading through it the thematic content flows amazingly. from 40 different authors???????? That just blows my mind. In my opinion if how the Bible was written and how it flows doesn't prove there was some sort of higher being influencing these authors, I don't know what would. My question is this: What are good reasons for a belief in Christianity or indeed any religion? Which reasons are not valid reasons? Which reason(s) do you base your own beliefs upon? I don't want to waste your time by typing out a bunch of archaeological finds of scripts, and other things but I will say this: I would like to bring up for a good reason to believe there is a God is look at the odds! If anyone hasn't ever read about Pascal's Wager I would recommend you to it. it's quite interesting. In a nutshell it talks about if you were to believe in God, and there was a God you get to go to heaven, if you believe in God and there isn't a God, you lose nothing and perhaps live a life with more hope than if you didn't. However if you don't believe in a God and he is, you lost, if you don't believe and he doesn't exist still... you lose nothing. The odds are in our favor guys. : ) That's one logical reasoning that I find interesting and applicable to my belief in God. Sorry to type a lot I find it good stuff to discuss this stuff. Thanks for the fun blog TechniQ.UK! | ||
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
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suresh0t
United States295 Posts
On January 30 2008 01:57 f0rgiv3n wrote: The bible taken alone, proves nothing-- In my opinion I believe it proves everything, everything about the human race. This is one reason why I personally believe in Christianity. Reading through the bible, the bible is the only religious book that shows the disgusting and disturbing ways of how we all are. Reading through the bible you'll find things such as murder, rape, stealing, and lots of other things that you would think religions would want to hide. Another thing about the bible is unlike all other religious texts it was written by 40 different authors over 1600 years. 1600 YEARS! Can you believe that? Yet reading through it the thematic content flows amazingly. from 40 different authors???????? That just blows my mind. In my opinion if how the Bible was written and how it flows doesn't prove there was some sort of higher being influencing these authors, I don't know what would. My question is this: What are good reasons for a belief in Christianity or indeed any religion? Which reasons are not valid reasons? Which reason(s) do you base your own beliefs upon? I don't want to waste your time by typing out a bunch of archaeological finds of scripts, and other things but I will say this: I would like to bring up for a good reason to believe there is a God is look at the odds! If anyone hasn't ever read about Pascal's Wager I would recommend you to it. it's quite interesting. In a nutshell it talks about if you were to believe in God, and there was a God you get to go to heaven, if you believe in God and there isn't a God, you lose nothing and perhaps live a life with more hope than if you didn't. However if you don't believe in a God and he is, you lost, if you don't believe and he doesn't exist still... you lose nothing. The odds are in our favor guys. : ) That's one logical reasoning that I find interesting and applicable to my belief in God. Sorry to type a lot I find it good stuff to discuss this stuff. Thanks for the fun blog TechniQ.UK! If you follow this approach to religion then, by your own standards, you would not get into heaven... | ||
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f0rgiv3n
United States112 Posts
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yubee
United States3826 Posts
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suresh0t
United States295 Posts
On January 30 2008 02:42 f0rgiv3n wrote: how so? Because then your obviously not living as a Christian by faith, you are living it by fear. Which means you don't really believe, which means you don't get to go to heaven  | ||
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Quanticfograw
United States2053 Posts
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f0rgiv3n
United States112 Posts
On January 30 2008 02:54 suresh0t wrote: Because then your obviously not living as a Christian by faith, you are living it by fear. Which means you don't really believe, which means you don't get to go to heaven I gotcha  . Yeah I understand where your'e coming from there. I dont' actually base my faith on that alone but it was something that helps one if they are waivering on whether or not to believe. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On January 29 2008 18:31 Klaz wrote: If all humanity derives from Adam and Eve, does that mean we are a product of incest? If so then why is incest considered wrong by Christianity since none of us would be around without it? The answer to this, I believe, is that at the time of adam and eve, there was no 'law' because god hadn't given any. (If there are no rules you can't break them.) There was only one law, and therefore one way to sin, which was to eat from the forbidden tree. And also, apparently people lived for hundreds of years at that time, so maybe he had one kid, then another one 50 years later, etc. (and in the old testament, a lot of the laws were designed to keep the people healthy, so its obvious why its a sin) ---------- Anyway, I think it is kind of narrow minded to be so sure there isn't a god. It kind of reminds me of when I do homework problems and the answer isn't in the back of the book. It just takes me 1 or 2 steps, then bam, I have an answer. Of course I have no way of checking if its right, and I know that it probably shouldn't be so easy, so I probably did it wrong. Its easy to attack someone and their beliefs, and many times they are wrong. But that still doesn't change the question of whether god exists or not. That is independent of anyone else. Just the fact that you only live for 20 - 80 years, you should expect not to know everything within such a short lifetime. Especially nowadays when most people generally figure things out on their own. In the past cultures had traditions that they passed down from generation to generation, and collectively, they had a much longer "lifetime". Today, we are told what the 'truth' is, and most people just accept it, and move on to other things (school, work, sports, etc.), whereas in the past they were actively thinking about it. Do you really think that one day some monkey looked up at the sky and said "hey, there's god!"? All I'm saying is to use a little critical thinking and judge the world around you with your own thoughts and feelings (thats right, you have both). | ||
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TechniQ.UK
United Kingdom391 Posts
i.e. What makes it more "correct" than any other religion in the world. Basically if you look at the main stream religions that exist today, if you believe in a god you can narrow it down to about 4, Muslims worship a god who many christians including myself believe to be a small g (god) a diety that links back to satan why is this allah not the same as the God of the bible? 1. The bible teaches that Yah'shua (Jesus) was THE saviour, he was the messiah the prophet, however the quran contradicts this by saying that Yah'shua is only to come later a 2nd time and isnt as important as mohammed. The quran is like the 3rd or 4th holy book in the world in chronological order of the abrahamic religions, it came after Yah'shua returned to heaven and its saying that all the rules have changed and that in some twisted way that theres a new more important prophet and salvation comes through all this other stuff and doesn't mention faith much, also theres parts where the quran says that allah went down to hell and started torturing souls there for i think it was amusement?? Sorry but going from us being saved and being back in the love of the father and then out of nowhere its like all of this stuff, no im sorry but this isn't our Lord and saviour and its not the God of the bible. There is also a lot of evidence to show that most of islam is based on idolatry of like stones, which the bible also warns against. Sikhism is kinda like i don't know much about God but its like hes everywhere, created life and is kinda just there, salvation comes through enlightenment, this is basically buddhism, sikhism and other indian/eastern religions in a nut shell, so theres nothing much going on there they get information from so called gurus with like 0 evidence. Judaism is basically what came before Christianity but has decided not to move on when Christianity came, why? im not sure but there is quite a lot of parts of judaism who do believe in the messiah so there i think on the way to salvation. Can you explain the Holy Trinity to me? I read the Bible, but that thing doesnt make fucking sense at all. Ok basically The son, the Father and the Holy Spirit are all part of 1 God, they are all linked in some way but they're existing in 3 persons. I can't really go into this much because its so beyond what we understand theres really no way for us to know on what levels are they the same person etc... However Yah'shua made it clear that he and the Father were one. The bible also makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is also a part of this unity. Can Buddhists and Hindus get into heaven? Yes if they believe in Yah'shua with their whole heart and confess him before others and follow some important rules in the bible for salvation then theres no reason why not. Unless their religion is worshipping other idols or gods because that is a serious sin and the bible says you cannot be a person with 2 masters (sin or salvation, God or some other idol). What are good reasons for a belief in Christianity or indeed any religion? Which reasons are not valid reasons? Which reason(s) do you base your own beliefs upon? Reasons in general: You really think we got put on this earth, so perfectly designed, more intellegent and different than anything else here without a higher being to create us. You think that if there was a superior designer he would be so un-intellegent to just be some floating spiritual substense that doesn't observe judge or communicate? There has been several people cured of illnesses and diseases in this day and age, an example would be doyle brunsons wife who was cured of cancer when a christian spiritual healer came to see her. There has also been supernatural events that people have experienced from all over the world. Supernatural events that involve things like ghosts seem to stop dead when someone rebukes that spirit or demon in the name of Jesus. Real Exorcisms.... My reasons : I was an aethiest but turned Christian over 2 days where i just started having these thoughts which i did not think about myself, i believe in relevance to the bible that it was my calling from my Father or the Holy Spirit because of how sudden it was. I've witnessed the power of the Lord in me even before i read more than 5 pages of the bible, just by taking the prayer i was instantly changed in many ways. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i helped another Christian that was getting chased and bullied for being known to be an ultra-religious kinda geeky person where as i usually would be laughing at him as normal. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i asked for a specific thing to happen and it did 4 minutes later which was so specific that it can't have been a coincidence, the way it happened was like 1 in a million chance for this to happen the way it did. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i was in church for the first time and i was half way through a hymn when i got like complete happiness that was not my own, i was getting bored of the song and then it came to a part about Jesus rising from the dead and its like i didnt take much notice but when i sang that line a huge euphoria came over me. I couldn't stop smiling and just being happy for about 10 minutes straight, I'm pretty sure it was the Holy Spirit that day. So basically its my view that anyone who doesn't believe, make that leap of faith, take the sinners prayer in complete clean intentions and you will witness the power of the Lord in your own way, he will show you what you need to be shown, trust me, anyone who calls themselves aethiest etc... i don't think can truely justify themselves until you take that step and see what happens. Throw yourself out there and you will experience the truth first hand. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
And of course, like suresh0t and others have pointed out (most notably William James), believing in God on the basis of odds is completely unchristian and therefore the Wager is self defeating. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 “But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 “So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 “Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such a wicked thing among you. -Deuteronomy 13:6 8-15 Lets not forget that Jesus tells us to obey all the words of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:18-19.) | ||
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f0rgiv3n
United States112 Posts
On January 30 2008 04:02 Jibba wrote: Also, what do you make of Lets not forget that Jesus tells us to obey all the words of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:18-19.) Deuteronomy was a letter to a group of people and that was meant for them in the Old Testament. When Jesus Christ came he totally made a lot of changes by how he lived and died. When reading the Old Testament we're not supposed to take them literally you can find lots of sayings like "don't shave your beard." for instance, i mean do you see all christians walking around with really long beards? I think that would be quite funny actually but no, it's because we read those and we get the idea from what God was trying to tell us through the author. In that instance he was saying is that even though you love your family/friends if they are worshipping other gods then you are to not hide it, or conceal it. Bring it out in the open because you love them it's like "a good friend tells the truth." You don't hide it. The comment above that: Pascal's Wager is an unsound argument. Some of its premises are false while others are just extremely debatable and unprovable. And of course, like suresh0t and others have pointed out (most notably William James), believing in God on the basis of odds is completely unchristian and therefore the Wager is self defeating. odds... completely unchristian? It's a matter of thinking rationally is what I was trying to prove. A lot of people separate religion and rational thinking. When I believe it's the total opposite: Believing in God is the result of rational thinking. Sorry if I make you frustrated Jibba. | ||
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Dr.Dragoon
United States1241 Posts
Anyways, my question: Is God killable? No..I don't have any ulterior motives > | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. -Jesus confirming the Old Testament in the New Testament.-Matthew 5:18-19 Why wouldn't you follow the passage from Deuteronomy? Personally, I wouldn't because I believe it's immoral. As for Pascal, my point was that he is not using rational thinking. Rational thinking entails both a sound and valid argument. His argument is structurally valid (if you believe the premises, the conclusion is 100% true), but its premises are bad therefore it isn't sound. I can think of plenty of reasons to believe in God, but rational thinking is not one of them. That is the point of faith, and on that I cannot dispute you. | ||
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f0rgiv3n
United States112 Posts
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
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Texas
Germany2388 Posts
You shall not murder. 8] | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On January 30 2008 01:31 Wonders wrote: All of moral philosophy is dedicated to coming up with such a basis. And the effort has failed, I believe. The fundamental basis for human morality is our existence as (primate (mammal (animal))) organisms with the associated ancestral feelings and emotions. Logic and rationality are just modes of thinking used for justification and exploration. Its totally impossible to logically prove the most fundamental aspects of morality, such as the equality of all human beings before God, the idea of treating all with dignity and respect, etc. On January 30 2008 01:53 Hawk wrote: Scientology is just as much of a religion as Christianity, Buddism or whatever. Only true if you have a narrow minded, literal interpretation of religion. Scientology is basically a cloistered cult created by a documented charlatan (L Ron Hubbard) with the intent to defraud. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
Here's my contention / question. My grandfather was an atheistic humanist, whose goal was the betterment / prosperity / brotherhood etc. of all mankind. He died, and obviously according to the Bible he's going to hell. I know earlier it was mentioned that people who are good but atheistic have no rational reason to be good, but I disagree with that entirely. If you hit someone, they take vengeance on you and hit you back. If you bake them muffins, they might give you pumpkin seeds, if you massage their back they may give you a BJ. Being compassionate has lots of advantages. Anyhow, that's not related to my inquiry, just a fundamental feeling. Now you can debate that aspect, but it's not what's important. So, my grandpa, who was renowned by the people who knew him as compassionate and humble, died and (supposedly) went to hell. And though I go to Bible study and Sunday worship, I'm not certain of my faith. The underlying point is, you are supposed to love your family. Abraham rescued lot with God's help etc, even though Lot wasn't a perfect God fearing man. So if I am to love and cherish my grandfather, and speak highly of his name, and also love and revere God, who sent him to hell, there is obviously a discrepancy here. If I love my grandfather and believe he was a good and worthy man, then I am denying God because he was an atheist and that is obviously bad. But if I love God and follow all the teachings, then I am neglecting the memory of my grandfather because I have to say "though I loved and cherished you, you are now in hell and since you didn't follow the way you must be punished." And how could a man who neglects his family and thinks low of their life deeds be allowed into heaven, or be considered Christian-like? A man should be a blessing to those around him, and my grandfather was. I can't see following Christ and taking this view that my grandpa is deservedly in hell, or honoring my grandpa and strictly following the way. Lots of other questions, but I don't want to fill up the entire page. I also have plenty of other people to ask obviously, but on this one subject I yearn for the opinion of every God fearing man, regardless of his level of expertise. To expand my understanding I must talk with people, because the people you met and interacted with are the only legacy after your death, since material goods hold no value. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
"Three persons in one God," is how the Trinity is normally explained. How is that not polytheism? | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On January 30 2008 07:07 Ancestral wrote: Hi Here's my contention / question. My grandfather was an atheistic humanist, whose goal was the betterment / prosperity / brotherhood etc. of all mankind. He died, and obviously according to the Bible he's going to hell. I know earlier it was mentioned that people who are good but atheistic have no rational reason to be good, but I disagree with that entirely. If you hit someone, they take vengeance on you and hit you back. If you bake them muffins, they might give you pumpkin seeds, if you massage their back they may give you a BJ. Being compassionate has lots of advantages. Anyhow, that's not related to my inquiry, just a fundamental feeling. Now you can debate that aspect, but it's not what's important. I could, because that isn't any rational basis for morality. Its just a form of Hobbesian social contract where people are nice to each other and enforce lawful/unlawful behaviors for purely self-interested reasons. The problem with that is, well first of all, thats not the only or even major reason why people actually refrain from immoral behavior. Second, if you punch someone in the face they might beat you up, sure, great reason not to hit someone. However if you steal their money or woman or whatever and blame it on someone else, you get free stuff and someone else gets fucked. Sounds like a great advantage so must be a good thing to do, right? The idea behind basing morality on "do the most advantageous thing" is that it in order to be logically consistent, if the most advantageous thing happens to be to fuck someone over and get away with it, well that must be the right thing to do then. On January 30 2008 07:07 Ancestral wrote: So, my grandpa, who was renowned by the people who knew him as compassionate and humble, died and (supposedly) went to hell. And though I go to Bible study and Sunday worship, I'm not certain of my faith. The underlying point is, you are supposed to love your family. Abraham rescued lot with God's help etc, even though Lot wasn't a perfect God fearing man. So if I am to love and cherish my grandfather, and speak highly of his name, and also love and revere God, who sent him to hell, there is obviously a discrepancy here. If I love my grandfather and believe he was a good and worthy man, then I am denying God because he was an atheist and that is obviously bad. But if I love God and follow all the teachings, then I am neglecting the memory of my grandfather because I have to say "though I loved and cherished you, you are now in hell and since you didn't follow the way you must be punished." And how could a man who neglects his family and thinks low of their life deeds be allowed into heaven, or be considered Christian-like? A man should be a blessing to those around him, and my grandfather was. I can't see following Christ and taking this view that my grandpa is deservedly in hell, or honoring my grandpa and strictly following the way. Lots of other questions, but I don't want to fill up the entire page. I also have plenty of other people to ask obviously, but on this one subject I yearn for the opinion of every God fearing man, regardless of his level of expertise. To expand my understanding I must talk with people, because the people you met and interacted with are the only legacy after your death, since material goods hold no value. Not all Christian denominations stress the notion of hell, or how one enters it. Remember that a lot of political control has been exerted on the shape of Christianity over the past 2000 years. I am not a Christian, but what Jesus says in the Bible is this: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man comes to the Father but through me." That to me sounds a lot more open to interpretation than tradition holds. Maybe its worthy of some study. What exactly does it mean to go through the path that is Jesus? | ||
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TechniQ.UK
United Kingdom391 Posts
Basically what im trying to say is leave the judging up to God and just because you become a Christian doesn't mean you need to hate that person or think any less of them. Also all things are taken in to account in the judgement, there are lesser punishments and there are greater punishments for greater sins etc... i don't know completely how it works but our God is a just and kind God. You don't need to neglect the memory of your grandfather just think of it as he was a great man and he was a kind and loving man, his punishment may not be as bad and you will always love him and the people around him will always love him. God wouldn't really sit there and make you hate your own family members or dislike your own family members i mean a persons salvation is between them and God really. Well of course we christians have a duty to help God as we are all led by him but we are to love our family and friends and those around us, not condemn them in our hearts or by our mouths. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
However, I'm not sure what the RIGHT interpretation is, therefore I try to mix an approach of: 1)Studying the Bible 2)Going to church 3)Talking with Christians 4)Studying history 5)Praying And just for the 6th, making things up. It happened in history, but I guess I don't have any kind of authority. My view on Christianity is far more Unitarian than most others, and for that some might discount or ostracize my views, but the ultimate goal is to find the truth. And in order to do that, I must sift through a LOOOT of stuff. So I feel and believe the way I feel and believe now, but the ultimate goal is the truth, and also unity, friendship etc. And you're right about the logic behind compassion, but optimism seems to be most logical for me. I am more productive and happy when I believe that good actions result in good results, and that f***ing people over, while it may lead to short term gains, is not a sustainable way to prosperity. However, I must digress here, as my argument there is rooted in my own feelings and not any sort of logic or precedent (at least, it is rooted in logic only to a less that complete sense). Edit: At technique Yes, leave the judging up to God. I am glad you put it that way. It is only that American Evangelicals (the kind of Christians I am used to interacting with, at least outside my own church and group of friends) tend to do a lot of judging. The way I see it, and this is probably more progressive than what you're used to is that faith will always end up with the most favorable result. When I see the clouds on a rainy day, I know the sun is behind them. And although they can explain this with physics, I don't have any reason to believe these massive phenomnae other than they are observed over and over again. But if someone did not take that for granted, they might be more surprised. So I can't say for sure how Jesus will judge all the living and the dead, but living faithfully should ensure that when judgment comes, the best possible things will occur. I tend to be a little "happy-go lucky" with my Christianity, much to the dismay of some others, but it works for me at the moment. There is some controversial evangelist, I forget his name. Though I disagree with some of his arguments he said "Don't tell people they're saved, tell them how to be saved." I guess it's also true "Don't tell people they're damned, tell them how to be saved." Just my thoughts. Edit again: My original post was written with the assumption that you were like a lot of the churchgoers I've met at school etc., which may be a bad assumption. Not that I doubt their noble intent, but the reality is often different. | ||
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TechniQ.UK
United Kingdom391 Posts
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mel_ee
2448 Posts
anyways since we have some very intelligent people reading this, i thought i can ask this following question: why do different christian denominations believe in the same (almost the same) bible but not have the same denomination? Did they just happen to make over 30,000 different types of christianity based on what they like? | ||
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man
United States272 Posts
On January 30 2008 01:57 f0rgiv3n wrote: The bible taken alone, proves nothing-- In my opinion I believe it proves everything, everything about the human race. This is one reason why I personally believe in Christianity. Reading through the bible, the bible is the only religious book that shows the disgusting and disturbing ways of how we all are. Reading through the bible you'll find things such as murder, rape, stealing, and lots of other things that you would think religions would want to hide. Another thing about the bible is unlike all other religious texts it was written by 40 different authors over 1600 years. 1600 YEARS! Can you believe that? Yet reading through it the thematic content flows amazingly. from 40 different authors???????? That just blows my mind. In my opinion if how the Bible was written and how it flows doesn't prove there was some sort of higher being influencing these authors, I don't know what would. My question is this: What are good reasons for a belief in Christianity or indeed any religion? Which reasons are not valid reasons? Which reason(s) do you base your own beliefs upon? I don't want to waste your time by typing out a bunch of archaeological finds of scripts, and other things but I will say this: I would like to bring up for a good reason to believe there is a God is look at the odds! If anyone hasn't ever read about Pascal's Wager I would recommend you to it. it's quite interesting. In a nutshell it talks about if you were to believe in God, and there was a God you get to go to heaven, if you believe in God and there isn't a God, you lose nothing and perhaps live a life with more hope than if you didn't. However if you don't believe in a God and he is, you lost, if you don't believe and he doesn't exist still... you lose nothing. The odds are in our favor guys. : ) That's one logical reasoning that I find interesting and applicable to my belief in God. Sorry to type a lot I find it good stuff to discuss this stuff. Thanks for the fun blog TechniQ.UK! Yes, the Bible's thematic contents flows so amazingly. In fact, there are no contradictions... http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#good_to_all Pascal's wager? I hope you believe in all religions and not just Christianity, otherwise your odds are still pretty bad. | ||
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-WGT-Stars-
United States888 Posts
On January 30 2008 02:54 suresh0t wrote: Because then your obviously not living as a Christian by faith, you are living it by fear. Which means you don't really believe, which means you don't get to go to heaven The fear of the lord is the beginning of Wisdom -_-;;;;; so you're wrong | ||
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Alethios
New Zealand2765 Posts
On January 30 2008 01:57 f0rgiv3n wrote: The bible taken alone, proves nothing-- In my opinion I believe it proves everything, everything about the human race. This is one reason why I personally believe in Christianity. Reading through the bible, the bible is the only religious book that shows the disgusting and disturbing ways of how we all are. Reading through the bible you'll find things such as murder, rape, stealing, and lots of other things that you would think religions would want to hide. Another thing about the bible is unlike all other religious texts it was written by 40 different authors over 1600 years. 1600 YEARS! Can you believe that? Yet reading through it the thematic content flows amazingly. from 40 different authors???????? That just blows my mind. In my opinion if how the Bible was written and how it flows doesn't prove there was some sort of higher being influencing these authors, I don't know what would. If the bible is slightly more bloodthirsty than other religious texts.. so what? If the bible claims to be written by 40 different people, what evidence is this that god exists? Thats even leaving aside many contradictions inherent within the bible. [Samuel 15:29 The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. // Amos 7:3, 6 The Lord repented for this.] So the bible must be the imperfect work of man, perhaps not influenced by a higher being in some cases. That being said, the word you've seemed to have missed here is "empirical". It may well be evidence for God's existence, but it is NOT proof. On January 30 2008 03:44 TechniQ.UK wrote: My reasons : I was an aethiest but turned Christian over 2 days where i just started having these thoughts which i did not think about myself, i believe in relevance to the bible that it was my calling from my Father or the Holy Spirit because of how sudden it was. I've witnessed the power of the Lord in me even before i read more than 5 pages of the bible, just by taking the prayer i was instantly changed in many ways. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i helped another Christian that was getting chased and bullied for being known to be an ultra-religious kinda geeky person where as i usually would be laughing at him as normal. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i asked for a specific thing to happen and it did 4 minutes later which was so specific that it can't have been a coincidence, the way it happened was like 1 in a million chance for this to happen the way it did. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i was in church for the first time and i was half way through a hymn when i got like complete happiness that was not my own, i was getting bored of the song and then it came to a part about Jesus rising from the dead and its like i didnt take much notice but when i sang that line a huge euphoria came over me. I couldn't stop smiling and just being happy for about 10 minutes straight, I'm pretty sure it was the Holy Spirit that day. So basically its my view that anyone who doesn't believe, make that leap of faith, take the sinners prayer in complete clean intentions and you will witness the power of the Lord in your own way, he will show you what you need to be shown, trust me, anyone who calls themselves aethiest etc... i don't think can truely justify themselves until you take that step and see what happens. Throw yourself out there and you will experience the truth first hand. These reasons are of course, rational and therefore highly commendable. Though I would wager that for every atheist/agnostic like yourself who asked something of God and were granted their wish, there will be 50 who weren't. Though there obviously will be reasons for this if God does exist. On January 30 2008 03:44 TechniQ.UK wrote: What are good reasons for a belief in Christianity or indeed any religion? Which reasons are not valid reasons? Which reason(s) do you base your own beliefs upon? Reasons in general: You really think we got put on this earth, so perfectly designed, more intellegent and different than anything else here without a higher being to create us. You think that if there was a superior designer he would be so un-intellegent to just be some floating spiritual substense that doesn't observe judge or communicate? There has been several people cured of illnesses and diseases in this day and age, an example would be doyle brunsons wife who was cured of cancer when a christian spiritual healer came to see her. There has also been supernatural events that people have experienced from all over the world. Supernatural events that involve things like ghosts seem to stop dead when someone rebukes that spirit or demon in the name of Jesus. Real Exorcisms.... Here is where I must disagree with you. Your reasons in general falter under the microscope. We are not, by any stretch, perfect; nor are we perfectly designed. Even from a Christian standpoint you must admit this is true. If we were all perfectly designed (by God) then there would be no war, no genetic diseases such as down's syndrome and most importantly... we would all be perfect Christians destined for heaven. I would also challenge your use of the word "different". Our differences from Monkeys for instance (sharing a common ancestor or not) are far less marked than those separating viruses from mammals... they truly are weird. People are cured of cancer every day. The cancer clears up. Perhaps God is responsible. However, this happens with the same frequency in Devil worshiping rapists as in nuns, so pinning it upon the spiritual healer is rather invalid. With ghosts and demons... you would admit that a large proportion of them are tricks of the mind right? They are often show as such on the discovery channel. By invoking Jesus, your belief allows you confidence that Jesus will banish the demons, and in so thinking, a persons mind can overcome the fear, see that the "demon" is in fact a pitchfork in hay and believe the demon banished. As of yet, I have not seen any evidence showing that any "supernatural" events are more than just fantasy. I can see that your faith is strong. Despite what you might think, I'm actually in approval. You faith in God is grounded and justified by personal experience. My next question, if I may, concerns different religions. Hindus, Muslims, Pagans the world over have had similar experiences with a god or gods. They, being in a different part of the world or living at a different time, chalk their experience up to a different entity. Presumably they are all wrong, what makes you think you are correct? | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On January 30 2008 13:13 oneofthem wrote: modern christians, or any religion that has undergone some social transformatino for that matter, do not much engage the original theology. the religious framework is sectioned off, only invoked during rituals and such, and this is a good thing for the most part. the contradictions and such in the belief system are never brought out, because nobody really believes in any of the stuff. That's kind of what I was getting at before. Making your own interpretation of the Bible and cherry picking which parts to follow (or not to follow certain parts like the "stone your relatives" section I referred to) is admitting that morality and Goodness exist independent and possibly prior to God. Socrates went over it a couple millenia ago. The fact that there's so many contradictions in the text makes things even cloudier. In that line of thought, I think it's fair to say that in some sense morality is relative and man made, which might scare people because they might infer that our definition might just as easily be flipped around in different circumstances. First, the same problem could be applied if Goodness was defined solely by God's will - good could be evil and so forth. Second, I agree with the utilitarian line of thinking that our current general ideals of morality and Goodness are beneficial both to our survival and our happiness, and those reasons alone are enough reason to abide by it. It may even be argued that under non-desperate circumstances, animals are biologically "good" or at least obey morality. After all, the 10 Commandments dealing with general morality (5-10) certainly did not begin with Christianity and they may not even have begun with human beings, as many animals observe these behaviors amongst their species. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
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Alethios
New Zealand2765 Posts
On January 30 2008 07:17 FieryBalrog wrote: I could, because that isn't any rational basis for morality. Its just a form of Hobbesian social contract where people are nice to each other and enforce lawful/unlawful behaviors for purely self-interested reasons. The problem with that is, well first of all, thats not the only or even major reason why people actually refrain from immoral behavior. Second, if you punch someone in the face they might beat you up, sure, great reason not to hit someone. However if you steal their money or woman or whatever and blame it on someone else, you get free stuff and someone else gets fucked. Sounds like a great advantage so must be a good thing to do, right? The idea behind basing morality on "do the most advantageous thing" is that it in order to be logically consistent, if the most advantageous thing happens to be to fuck someone over and get away with it, well that must be the right thing to do then. I feel as if I must respond to this. However, i'm weary of getting too off topic, so to that end, i've been compelled to create my own blog for such matters. You can read it here. Back on topic, ilj.psa. While i'm sure there is much of the story you aren't telling us (causing you to say that you are 100% sure of the reasons) Would you admit that, perhaps for some people, merely convincing oneself that something is about to go away causing it to go away. It is commonly known as the placebo effect. Also to FieryBalrog: On January 29 2008 22:49 FieryBalrog wrote: Only true if you have a narrow minded, literal interpretation of religion. Scientology is basically a cloistered cult created by a documented charlatan (L Ron Hubbard) with the intent to defraud. Can we not also apply this to Islam and Christianity? Like Hubbard, we cannot truly tell whether the founders of both religions truly believed what they were spouting (and does it matter anyway?). This shows us that like those currently profiting from the Scientology racket, high ranking religious individuals and organisations have profited from the beliefs of those underneath them. Your case for Scientology being a cult is accepted, but not your case for it being any different from the established religions. Perhaps the only difference is membership numbers and age. | ||
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TechniQ.UK
United Kingdom391 Posts
The way it works is that diety's like hindu gods, allah etc... (and allah is not the god of the bible so lets not even go there) they are a front for the devil, any man made false gods, or idols such as rocks etc... that are used in islam, this is also a front for the devil, therefore the belief and power from this worship goes to him and not the true living God of the bible, this is why its a sin. Now any experiences they got from their belief in islam, hinduism etc... is basically this, the devil throwing his worshippers a bone, to keep them believing and to rail them in deeper and deeper to do his bidding, this is how we get suicide bombers, islamic extremists. I mean how does the living God of the bible go from saying hey, your all saved by Yah'shua so stop sinning and hating, to sending another prophet muhammmad who is instructing people to kill and to go crazy and get angry for their religion, as i said before its also said that allah went down to hell to torture souls from time to time, do you really think his Holyness, the greatest being the most Holy and powerful and kind and loving God the father, went down to hell to satisfy his amusement? Ofcourse not. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On January 30 2008 17:44 TechniQ.UK wrote: My next question, if I may, concerns different religions. Hindus, Muslims, Pagans the world over have had similar experiences with a god or gods. They, being in a different part of the world or living at a different time, chalk their experience up to a different entity. Presumably they are all wrong, what makes you think you are correct? The way it works is that diety's like hindu gods, allah etc... (and allah is not the god of the bible so lets not even go there) they are a front for the devil, any man made false gods, or idols such as rocks etc... that are used in islam, this is also a front for the devil, therefore the belief and power from this worship goes to him and not the true living God of the bible, this is why its a sin. Now any experiences they got from their belief in islam, hinduism etc... is basically this, the devil throwing his worshippers a bone, to keep them believing and to rail them in deeper and deeper to do his bidding, this is how we get suicide bombers, islamic extremists. I mean how does the living God of the bible go from saying hey, your all saved by Yah'shua so stop sinning and hating, to sending another prophet muhammmad who is instructing people to kill and to go crazy and get angry for their religion, as i said before its also said that allah went down to hell to torture souls from time to time, do you really think his Holyness, the greatest being the most Holy and powerful and kind and loving God the father, went down to hell to satisfy his amusement? Ofcourse not. god, how can you read this paragraph and not feel like a piece of trash? I'm really not so much trying to insult you....I really want to know:/ Do you see nothing wrong with this...because you "know" it's the truth without any evidence? Just remember, this is similar to what someone devout to another religion would say about Christianity and other religions. From an objective viewpoint, people of different religions arguing are like kids trying to have a snowball fight without any snow;( | ||
vGl-CoW
Belgium8305 Posts
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f0rgiv3n
United States112 Posts
 . Just thought i might put this in there : ) | ||
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chicken`
Germany3478 Posts
On January 30 2008 18:03 Yuljan wrote: A question not directly related to christianity. But did you have alot of self esteem issues? You sound like some overzealous fanatic and I met many muslims who arent as hateful as you are. Some of you claim the bible isnt meant to be taken literally, but those muslims say the same about the quran. I would consider you the same as those hardcore muslim suicide bombers, because you have the perfect personality. Im sure a young boy like you can easily be influenced to die for his religion and thinking its honorable. Its funny you hate those who are most similar to yourself. so true. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On January 30 2008 05:13 Jibba wrote: f0rgiv3n, -Jesus confirming the Old Testament in the New Testament. Why wouldn't you follow the passage from Deuteronomy? Personally, I wouldn't because I believe it's immoral. As for Pascal, my point was that he is not using rational thinking. Rational thinking entails both a sound and valid argument. His argument is structurally valid (if you believe the premises, the conclusion is 100% true), but its premises are bad therefore it isn't sound. I can think of plenty of reasons to believe in God, but rational thinking is not one of them. That is the point of faith, and on that I cannot dispute you. The old testament is known in the bible as "The Law". Since people are naturally born sinners and always were.. How could humanity earn a moral compass for good without a set of law/punish system if we are born sinners? The Law is self-explanatory word of what God instruct us to do and punished sin and corruption of man to acquire a moral compass. How would we know whats wrong and whats right without a set of punishments to make humanity better and morally right? I believe thats an example of how God wants the best for us and the love of God for humanity. Exactly like Father and Son. Father punishes son when he does wrong, so the son grow up right and to understand whats wrong/right thing to do. | ||
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man
United States272 Posts
On January 30 2008 17:44 TechniQ.UK wrote: My next question, if I may, concerns different religions. Hindus, Muslims, Pagans the world over have had similar experiences with a god or gods. They, being in a different part of the world or living at a different time, chalk their experience up to a different entity. Presumably they are all wrong, what makes you think you are correct? The way it works is that diety's like hindu gods, allah etc... (and allah is not the god of the bible so lets not even go there) they are a front for the devil, any man made false gods, or idols such as rocks etc... that are used in islam, this is also a front for the devil, therefore the belief and power from this worship goes to him and not the true living God of the bible, this is why its a sin. Now any experiences they got from their belief in islam, hinduism etc... is basically this, the devil throwing his worshippers a bone, to keep them believing and to rail them in deeper and deeper to do his bidding, this is how we get suicide bombers, islamic extremists. I mean how does the living God of the bible go from saying hey, your all saved by Yah'shua so stop sinning and hating, to sending another prophet muhammmad who is instructing people to kill and to go crazy and get angry for their religion, as i said before its also said that allah went down to hell to torture souls from time to time, do you really think his Holyness, the greatest being the most Holy and powerful and kind and loving God the father, went down to hell to satisfy his amusement? Ofcourse not. Allah is the God of the Bible, just as the God of the Bible is the God of the Torah. Each one just added their own crap to what was already there. | ||
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man
United States272 Posts
On January 31 2008 06:41 ilj.psa wrote: The old testament is known in the bible as "The Law". Since people are naturally born sinners and always were.. How could humanity earn a moral compass for good without a set of law/punish system if we are born sinners? The Law is self-explanatory word of what God instruct us to do and punished sin and corruption of man to acquire a moral compass. How would we know whats wrong and whats right without a set of punishments to make humanity better and morally right? I believe thats an example of how God wants the best for us and the love of God for humanity. Exactly like Father and Son. Father punishes son when he does wrong, so the son grow up right and to understand whats wrong/right thing to do. Human morality does not come from Christianity. If you followed Old Testament laws, you would be thrown in jail. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
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TechniQ.UK
United Kingdom391 Posts
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man
United States272 Posts
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
http://www.gospelway.com/morality/index.php ill give you a link if you want to read some more about this | ||
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suresh0t
United States295 Posts
ONCE AGAIN I WILL RESTATE...THE MUSLIM GOD IS THE SAME AS THE JEWISH GOD! CHRISTIANS DON'T HAVE THEIR OWN GOD, THEY STOLE IT FROM THE JEWS. DEAL WITH IT. | ||
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On January 31 2008 06:41 ilj.psa wrote: The old testament is known in the bible as "The Law". That's incorrect. The Torah is The Law, and the Torah is only one part of the Tanakh. | ||
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Dr.Dragoon
United States1241 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On January 31 2008 08:05 ilj.psa wrote: So you support the stoning of friends/family/anyone who tries to lead you astray from Christianity? At certain points in the Bible, Jesus supports the Golden Rule, but there are many other religions who do a much more consistent job of teaching love/compassion, and there are clearly points within the Bible where the word of God is NOT compassionate or forgiving. sure you would, we now understand the concept of right/wrong thanks to the set of law/punish system that god made for us to acquire a moral compass on whats wrong to do and right. Do you believe slavery is morally admissible because the New Testament does? These are contradictions that you cannot ignore, and leaving them up for "interpretation" in the 21st century is not a viable option, because they are still moral according to the word of God. If you believe they are immoral, which I hope you do, then you're doing so based on a set of morals that are independent of the Bible. Belief set Z is consistent with set Y in the Bible, but inconsistent with set X in the Bible. You support set Z, therefore you reject set X. That's fine, but clearly set Z does not exist because the Bible says it does. | ||
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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
On January 31 2008 08:47 TechniQ.UK wrote: i dont hate muslims i think there the greatest religious followers in the world, i just hate they follow the wrong religion. Wow, just wow... I don't hate you, I just hate that you follow the wrong lifestyle. What a fool you are. Religion is for the weak. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On January 31 2008 10:14 Mindcrime wrote: That's incorrect. The Torah is The Law, and the Torah is only one part of the Tanakh. No your wrong, The Old testament is the Torah in Judaism. Jews also know the Torah as the Tanakh. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On January 31 2008 10:54 Jibba wrote: So you support the stoning of friends/family/anyone who tries to lead you astray from Christianity? At certain points in the Bible, Jesus supports the Golden Rule, but there are many other religions who do a much more consistent job of teaching love/compassion, and there are clearly points within the Bible where the word of God is NOT compassionate or forgiving. Do you believe slavery is morally admissible because the New Testament does? These are contradictions that you cannot ignore, and leaving them up for "interpretation" in the 21st century is not a viable option, because they are still moral according to the word of God. If you believe they are immoral, which I hope you do, then you're doing so based on a set of morals that are independent of the Bible. Belief set Z is consistent with set Y in the Bible, but inconsistent with set X in the Bible. You support set Z, therefore you reject set X. That's fine, but clearly set Z does not exist because the Bible says it does. Thats a misleading argument, since Slavery was like a job(kinda like a servant nowadays) and a way of life back then in the Roman empire which is not at all like slavery is today, which its horrible Ill give you a link to read if your interested about this and if you have enough time: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 01 2008 07:58 ilj.psa wrote: Thats a misleading argument, since Slavery was like a job and a way of life back then in the Roman empire which is not at all like slavery is today. Ill give you a link to read if your interested about this and if you have enough time: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html It wasn't a job. I agree that it can be misleading because American slavery was uniquely fueled by hatred, whereas most ancient forms of slavery were essentially with the use of POWs. With that said, it's still control of another human being. You can go beyond the slavery example. There's plenty of other examples in the Bible of support of unscrupulous behavior that most people would find despicable by our current moral standards. | ||
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f0rgiv3n
United States112 Posts
On February 01 2008 07:35 Phyre wrote: Wow, just wow... I don't hate you, I just hate that you follow the wrong lifestyle. What a fool you are. Religion is for the weak. I don't want to put words in his mouth but what he's trying to say I think is "don't hate the person, hate the sin" and that is by what I try to live my life. | ||
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GeneralZap
United States172 Posts
On January 29 2008 20:49 CaucasianAsian wrote: Why don't christians find ways to die when they "know" for a fact that when they do they will end up in a utopia where you can only be euphoric because its fuckin heaven? So that we are not selfish, and point out the way to Heaven. Only through believing/trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. | ||
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GeneralZap
United States172 Posts
On January 31 2008 07:51 man wrote: Allah is the God of the Bible, just as the God of the Bible is the God of the Torah. Each one just added their own crap to what was already there. There is one God. If there was another God against a God, then he would no longer be omnipotent, for he could not destroy another. As far as the Trinity, the Trinity is God, God can make himself into a flesh/image, or be a spirit. God is omnipresent, he can be anywhere, anytime, in many different places if he wants. Jesus, Holy Ghost/Spirit, and Father, are in general God. God can time travel. Let me find some instances where people believe Old Testament figures were Jesus giving hope to the Jews, and it is true. Every time someone worships an angel they are punished, but if they worship God, they are not. I'll try and find some verses soon. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On February 01 2008 08:03 Jibba wrote: It wasn't a job. I agree that it can be misleading because American slavery was uniquely fueled by hatred, whereas most ancient forms of slavery were essentially with the use of POWs. With that said, it's still control of another human being. You can go beyond the slavery example. There's plenty of other examples in the Bible of support of unscrupulous behavior that most people would find despicable by our current moral standards. Slavery in the past was essencially that the servant worked for another man in his home, the servant worked for him in exchange for food, cloth, place to sleep, roof to live etc.That way both gained something. Not like we know slavery now. The bible accept this as a way of life. and also specifically demands that the person would not be threated badly, hurt, beaten, anything unhuman. But those people who violate this obviously God condemned them "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1). There were also a lot of verses in the bible were it condemned slavery which i think your not taking into account and cherrypicking since some slave-owners threated them bad thus violating the word of God. + Show Spoiler + Against forced Hebrew enslavement: "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death." (Exodus 21:16) Against returning escaped slaves: "You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him." (Deuteronomy 23:15-16) Against a specific incident by foreigners enslaving and selling Hebrews: "This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because she took captive whole communities and sold them to Edom, I will send fire upon the walls of Gaza that will consume her fortresses." (Amos 1:6-7) [edit] Apostle Paul on slavery in the Roman Empire Slave traders condemned: "... law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God." (1 Timothy 1: 9-11) Slaves should gain their freedom and not become slaves: "Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people; similarly, those who were free when called are Christ's slaves. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." (I Corinthians 7:21-23, NIV) Christianity makes no distinctions in the worthiness of all Christians, including slaves: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28) "...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:11) | ||
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GeneralZap
United States172 Posts
Jesus met Joshua, and Joshua worshipped him, and wasn't rebuked or punished, so it was obiously Jesus/God. Joshua5:13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? 15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. | ||
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man
United States272 Posts
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." JESUS SUPPORTS BEATING SLAVES Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it." | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On February 01 2008 09:55 man wrote: Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever." Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." JESUS SUPPORTS BEATING SLAVES Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it." eh wtf post the REST OF THE VERSE instead of cherry picking, or dont post anything. 2:43 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. -------------------- 3:5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 3:6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 3:7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken [it]. (its The Justice of the Lord, note that he is not encouraging it, towards people who had children of Judah as slaves) | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 01 2008 08:30 ilj.psa wrote: Slavery in the past was essencially that the servant worked for another man in his home, the servant worked for him in exchange for food, cloth, place to sleep, roof to live etc.That way both gained something. Not like we know slavery now. The bible accept this as a way of life. and also specifically demands that the person would not be threated badly, hurt, beaten, anything unhuman. But those people who violate this obviously God condemned them "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1). There were also a lot of verses in the bible were it condemned slavery which i think your not taking into account and cherrypicking since some slave-owners threated them bad thus violating the word of God. + Show Spoiler + Against forced Hebrew enslavement: "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death." (Exodus 21:16) Against returning escaped slaves: "You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him." (Deuteronomy 23:15-16) Against a specific incident by foreigners enslaving and selling Hebrews: "This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because she took captive whole communities and sold them to Edom, I will send fire upon the walls of Gaza that will consume her fortresses." (Amos 1:6-7) [edit] Apostle Paul on slavery in the Roman Empire Slave traders condemned: "... law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God." (1 Timothy 1: 9-11) Slaves should gain their freedom and not become slaves: "Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people; similarly, those who were free when called are Christ's slaves. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings." (I Corinthians 7:21-23, NIV) Christianity makes no distinctions in the worthiness of all Christians, including slaves: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28) "...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." (Colossians 3:11) It was not a work exchange program like you're insinuating. Slaves were prisoners of war, people who were conquered. Historically, we know the Hebrews weren't enslaved by the Egyptians. And you're just pointing out more of the contradictions within the Bible. You simply can't agree with "eye for an eye" while promoting forgiveness and redemption. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On February 01 2008 12:02 Jibba wrote: It was not a work exchange program like you're insinuating. Slaves were prisoners of war, people who were conquered. Historically, we know the Hebrews weren't enslaved by the Egyptians. And you're just pointing out more of the contradictions within the Bible. You simply can't agree with "eye for an eye" while promoting forgiveness and redemption. oh and btw I dont know much about slaves back then, but if you ask me and they were indeed prisioners of war of the enemy, and they worked for them ( God said, to provide them with a good food,shelter,cloth and not treat bad and inhumane the enemy's prisioners) , we can see a much more forgiving/compassionate God. | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On February 01 2008 12:38 ilj.psa wrote: oh and btw I dont know much about slaves back then, but if you ask me and they were indeed prisioners of war of the enemy, and they worked for them ( God said, to provide them with a good food,shelter,cloth and not treat bad and inhumane the enemy's prisioners) , we can see a much more forgiving/compassionate God. you have your arguments well rehearsed, but doesn't the fact that you have to go so far out of your way to try and explain away the clear contradictions in the bible act as a red flag? The cherry picking is obvious to any objective observer....don't you think that you would be a little more critical of christianity if you didn't have so much stake in it?;/ | ||
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Dr.Dragoon
United States1241 Posts
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lugggy
450 Posts
On January 30 2008 03:44 TechniQ.UK wrote: What is it in particular that convinces you Christianity is the one true religion? i.e. What makes it more "correct" than any other religion in the world. Basically if you look at the main stream religions that exist today, if you believe in a god you can narrow it down to about 4, This seems like repetition of the either-or fallacy to me. What makes you think the main religions have it right? What makes you think it has to be any of them? Maybe no one has it right yet, etc. We don't have to choose between the extant beliefs. And when you say "if you believe in a god", what does "a god" mean exactly? I think we have a pretty solid grasp on the physical world and what does "a god" mean, other than some "guy" we don't understand who does things "we can't see/know about" except through discredited methods of truth (such as "infallible" holy texts) and the like. Saying other religions don't follow "The God Of The Bible" doesn't discredit them, let alone prove yours. Agree with this logic? I think we should be able to, which means your apparent reason for believing Christianity isn't a very good one (it starts with the presupposition that Christianity's take on divine texts is right, a priori). What are good reasons for a belief in Christianity or indeed any religion? Which reasons are not valid reasons? Which reason(s) do you base your own beliefs upon? Reasons in general: You really think we got put on this earth, so perfectly designed, more intellegent and different than anything else here without a higher being to create us. You think that if there was a superior designer he would be so un-intellegent to just be some floating spiritual substense that doesn't observe judge or communicate? Anthropomorphic argument plus evolution solves this more elegantly than trusting old texts as revelations from God, agree or disagree? I have to assume you aren't clear on what these arguments show, or you wouldn't respond in this way. Or if not, I don't understand your answer in light of such readily available information. There has been several people cured of illnesses and diseases in this day and age, an example would be doyle brunsons wife who was cured of cancer when a christian spiritual healer came to see her. There has also been supernatural events that people have experienced from all over the world. Supernatural events that involve things like ghosts seem to stop dead when someone rebukes that spirit or demon in the name of Jesus. Real Exorcisms.... Even if these are true, freak occurances can and do happen, and even if these are indeed the hand of supernatural beings at work, it doesn't imply the truth of any religion, extant or not. No? My reasons : I was an aethiest but turned Christian over 2 days where i just started having these thoughts which i did not think about myself, i believe in relevance to the bible that it was my calling from my Father or the Holy Spirit because of how sudden it was. What if this happened to someone else, but regarding a different religion? I think experiences like this "back up" almost every religion on the globe, so you have to either accept theirs also, or discredit yours also. No? I've witnessed the power of the Lord in me even before i read more than 5 pages of the bible, just by taking the prayer i was instantly changed in many ways. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i helped another Christian that was getting chased and bullied for being known to be an ultra-religious kinda geeky person where as i usually would be laughing at him as normal. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i asked for a specific thing to happen and it did 4 minutes later which was so specific that it can't have been a coincidence, the way it happened was like 1 in a million chance for this to happen the way it did. I've witnessed the power of the Lord when i was in church for the first time and i was half way through a hymn when i got like complete happiness that was not my own, i was getting bored of the song and then it came to a part about Jesus rising from the dead and its like i didnt take much notice but when i sang that line a huge euphoria came over me. I couldn't stop smiling and just being happy for about 10 minutes straight, I'm pretty sure it was the Holy Spirit that day It sounds like you have learned to interpret events and emotions in terms of The Lord or some kind of language like that, but again, this could be done for any religion I am pretty sure, so it is not compelling for anyone but yourself. Every religion offers stories like this as proof of their divinity. So basically its my view that anyone who doesn't believe, make that leap of faith, take the sinners prayer in complete clean intentions and you will witness the power of the Lord in your own way, he will show you what you need to be shown, trust me, anyone who calls themselves aethiest etc... i don't think can truely justify themselves until you take that step and see what happens. Throw yourself out there and you will experience the truth first hand. Well again, have you taken that step with all the other faiths out there, as well as "lack of faith" faiths? My hypothesis is that we can get people to believe in things through your method, that we know are false, that are completely made up, as long as we don't tell them that's what we're doing. This is not to say your religion is made up, only that the methods you're offering us to see the truth of your religion, are faulty methods that can lead us to false results. So I am not convinced. Please help me out if you can. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On February 01 2008 13:42 OverTheUnder wrote: you have your arguments well rehearsed, but doesn't the fact that you have to go so far out of your way to try and explain away the clear contradictions in the bible act as a red flag? The cherry picking is obvious to any objective observer....don't you think that you would be a little more critical of christianity if you didn't have so much stake in it?;/ No im not going out of my way to explain anything, its just a common misconception and poor understanding on the bible that I feel needs to be addresed and explained. I find that funny cause any objective observer would also read the rest of the verse and not pick words to intentionally mislead. | ||
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Romance_us
Seychelles1806 Posts
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
On February 01 2008 15:00 Dr.Dragoon wrote: What does God do in his spare time? These are serious questions that I'm curious about, thanks GeneralZap for answering my last one. he masterbates, duh. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On April 14 2012 16:06 emc wrote: if the devil is evil then why does he punish evil people? Because they bumps age old threads. | ||
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Jay Chou
45 Posts
On April 14 2012 16:06 emc wrote: if the devil is evil then why does he punish evil people? If God is good why did He create the Devil? | ||
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Artline
177 Posts
On April 14 2012 16:31 Jay Chou wrote: If God is good why did He create the Devil? Cause there is no good without evil. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
That is anime-philosophy. | ||
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
On April 14 2012 16:06 emc wrote: if the devil is evil then why does he punish evil people? User was temp banned for this post. Wow...epic bump man. Because why would he show love for people, even those that have similar outlooks? That would be love, not evil. | ||
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