• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 14:02
CET 20:02
KST 04:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13
Community News
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation12Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7
StarCraft 2
General
Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview [TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle What happened to TvZ on Retro? SnOw's ASL S20 Finals Review BW General Discussion Brood War web app to calculate unit interactions
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
PvZ map balance Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers How to stay on top of macro?
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1988 users

Harder Math/CS Problem

Blogs > Slithe
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 03:17:08
January 23 2008 03:16 GMT
#1
So this one is quite tough. If you haven't done my first one, I recommend trying that one out first as it's much easier. I actually was not able to solve this one, but several of the possible answers were revealed to me, and I'm confident I would not have been able to solve it even if I kept trying.

I don't expect anyone to get a correct answer, but I think it's a nice thinking exercise to try and figure it out. I recommend contributing whatever ideas you have and discussing it with others. If you do get this one on your own, then mad props.

OK so here's the problem.

You have a randomized 8x8 bit matrix, meaning that all entries of the matrix are either 0 or 1 with equal probability. You are required to flip exactly one entry in the matrix from either 0 to 1 or 1 to 0. The only flexibility you get is that you can choose which entry you get to flip. What you want to do with this matrix is communicate messages to your friend by sending this matrix to him.

The problem is, create a protocol such that you can send the maximum number of messages to your friend.

Now the description might have been confusing, so a few clarifications.
1) Your friend does not know the randomized matrix when you send a message, only you do.
2) You have to be able to send any message from any starting matrix.
3) It might be useful first to try and figure out how many possible messages you can send before trying to create the protocol.

To give an example with a simple 1x2 matrix case. Let's suppose we just want to send 2 messages, Hello, and Bye. The protocol I agree upon with my friend is that if the first index is "1", then the message is Hello. If the first index is "0", then the message is Bye.

[1 0], [1 1] = Hello
[0 0], [0 1] = Bye

It's pretty easy to prove with brute force that this protocol works no matter what random matrix we start with. Any matrix in the 1x2 bit matrix space can become either Hello or Bye with 1 bit flip.


*****
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 03:45:31
January 23 2008 03:42 GMT
#2
I think the maximum possible number of messages is 2^64, since the matrix is 8x8 binary.
edit: I had a protocol, but it didn't follow specifications cuz I forgot you could only change one bit.
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21550 Posts
January 23 2008 04:01 GMT
#3
I came up with a brilliant solution it in my head, but then I had to go engage in some violence (I work as a bouncer), and now I've forgotten the whole thing.
Administrator
Dr.Dragoon
Profile Joined November 2007
United States1241 Posts
January 23 2008 04:07 GMT
#4
On January 23 2008 13:01 SonuvBob wrote:
I came up with a brilliant solution it in my head, but then I had to go engage in some violence (I work as a bouncer), and now I've forgotten the whole thing.
Yeah, I wrote my answer on a piece of paper, but I had to stop a fight (as a bouncer too), and the paper was missing when I returned.

PS: Do two of the same joke make the joke lame? Or just mine?
~o~ I have returned
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
January 23 2008 04:07 GMT
#5
I'm still kinda confused by the description. I can't really say where I'm confused, because I'm confused everywhere.

Could you give another example, maybe greater than a 1x2?
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 04:15:50
January 23 2008 04:14 GMT
#6
On January 23 2008 13:07 mikeymoo wrote:
I'm still kinda confused by the description. I can't really say where I'm confused, because I'm confused everywhere.

Could you give another example, maybe greater than a 1x2?

It's sort of like: "if the matrix has a 1 as the first bit, then it's hello, if 0, then it's bye."
then you get a _random_ matrix like this each time:
10101101
01010010
10101010
01010101
10111001
11010010
10110110
and you can only change one thing, since you've agreed with your friend to only pay attention to the first bit then,

10101101
01010010
10101010
01010101
10111001
11010010
10110110

is "hello"

and

00101101
01010010
10101010
01010101
10111001
11010010
10110110

is "bye"
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
January 23 2008 04:23 GMT
#7
Thank you. I'll sleep on this one and get back.
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
January 23 2008 04:25 GMT
#8
OK let's see if this helps. We'll still work with the 1x2 matrix though.

The matrix is completely random, so it has 4 possibilities.
[0 0]
[0 1]
[1 0]
[1 1]

Now what happens is, you start with one of these matrices, and you switch 1 entry, and then send the result to your friend. Let's suppose the matrix we randomly started with was [0 0].

Now, let's use the protocol I mentioned earlier. If I want to say hello to my friend, I should flip the first bit, and make the matrix [1 0]. If I want to say bye, I should flip the second bit, and make the matrix [0 1].

Let's start with another matrix, [1 0].
To say Hello, I flip the second bit to get [1 1].
To say Bye, I flip the first bit to get [0 0].

Now, this is a very simple protocol that only has 2 messages, and it can trivially be used with bigger matrices, but the hope of course is that we can make a protocol that sends more than 2 messages.

Remember that you always have to flip exactly one bit. Also, you need to be able to send any message from any starting matrix.

If you need more clarification, feel free to ask.
jkillashark
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States5262 Posts
January 23 2008 04:29 GMT
#9
I have enough trouble with Evil level Sudoku as it is.
Do your best, God will do the rest.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21550 Posts
January 23 2008 04:31 GMT
#10
Another example (though no more useful) would be to use the parity (whether there's an odd or even number of ones) of the matrix, since you can always change that with a single bit change. That still only gives you two possible messages (even or odd).


Seems like the best max you could possibly get is 64, since there's only 64 choices for a switch.

This reminds me a lot of that prisoner problem.
Administrator
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
January 23 2008 04:46 GMT
#11
SonuvBob, I think your idea for odd and even parity is slightly flawed, because from a given matrix, you can only get an odd number of ones or only get an even number of ones. I think it's more like, if you have 4n or 4n+1 ones, then it's hello, and if you have 4n+2 or 4n+3 ones, then it's bye.

Your reasoning for the upper bound of 64 I believe is correct.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 04:50:21
January 23 2008 04:47 GMT
#12
SonuvBob, I think that does put an upper limit on the number of possible messages.

I'm guessing that the actual limit is a binary message. Even with only 2 bits, you have to assign 2 possibilities to mean 1 message.

You can't use parity, because you HAVE to flip one bit every message, so the result is random anyways.

And since the matrix is random, you might end up with n 1s to start with. What do you do if you want to say "bye" then?

Er, I misunderstood? It looks like (# of 1s) mod 4 is what you're proposing... hm.....
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 05:11:07
January 23 2008 04:49 GMT
#13
You could technically use this kind of protocol: "if the first bit is 0, wait for my next message; if the first bit is 1, then count the number of digits until the first instance of '00' "
then just keep generating matrices until you get one that has a an instance of 00 where you want it, and change the first bit to 1. terribly inefficient, but it works

illustration:
say I wanted to send message number 5. I would keep generating matrices and putting the first bit as 0 until I got something like this:
11011001
01010010
10101010
01010101
10111001
11010010
10110110

then I would change the first bit to 1, and counting from the first bit to the 00, you get 5, meaning message 5.
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
January 23 2008 04:53 GMT
#14
If you can throw away a given matrix and randomly generate a new matrix until you get one you want, you could have 2^64 possible matrices, each with a unique meaning, and keep generating until you get the one you want. I don't think that's the problem we're dealing with.

Using (# of 1s) mod m might be the way to go.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
January 23 2008 04:56 GMT
#15
Yeah, but you wouldn't be "throwing away" the matrix in my case, you'd still be sending it, it's just that the 0 as the first bit would translate to "wait for my next message" or something.
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
January 23 2008 04:59 GMT
#16
If you're content with using multiple matrices, then you can make every one count by using the first bit as another bit in a string, with a predetermined byte length. Much better average throughput.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21550 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 05:09:25
January 23 2008 05:02 GMT
#17
On January 23 2008 13:46 Slithe wrote:
SonuvBob, I think your idea for odd and even parity is slightly flawed, because from a given matrix, you can only get an odd number of ones or only get an even number of ones. I think it's more like, if you have 4n or 4n+1 ones, then it's hello, and if you have 4n+2 or 4n+3 ones, then it's bye.

Ah yeah, in my head I was thinking of the parity of just one row of the matrix, leaving plenty of ignored bits to pick if you don't want to change the parity. Anyway, either way it's useless other than as just an example, since you only get 2 messages. (Honestly it's not even different from changing just the first bit, but mikey wanted another example :p)

To clarify the problem some more for mikey/zdd/whoever else is reading, you want to maximize the number of possible messages you can relay with one 8x8 matrix. You must be able to do this with any random 8x8 bit matrix.
Administrator
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
January 23 2008 05:14 GMT
#18
Oh yeah, my protocol is breaking this rule:

2) You have to be able to send any message from any starting matrix

man I'm stumped.
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 05:52:24
January 23 2008 05:42 GMT
#19
You can send at least 4 messages.

If we look at the parity of the first two lines, they will be {(0,0), (0,1), (1,0), (1,1)} for any given matrix.

Now, we can assign signal A = (0,1), signal B = (1,0), signal C = (1,1), and signal D = (0,0).

Also, signal A can be shown as Signal B with the parity of lines 3 and 4 being the same, and vice versa. So, given some matrix M,

x = (# of 1s in first line) mod 2
y = (# of 1s in second line) mod 2
z = (# of 1s in third line) mod 2 == (# of 1s in fourth line) mod 2

Then, the signals A, B, C, and D can be represented as follows:
A = {(0, 1, 0), (1, 0, 1)}
B = {(1, 0, 0), (0, 1, 1)}
C = {(0, 0, 0), (1, 1, 1)}
D = {(1, 1, 0), (0, 0, 1)}

Given any sequence of 3 bits, we can turn them into any of the 4 signals we wish to by flipping just one of these bits. Or if the sequence is one we already want, we can flip something on an ignored line.

I have a feeling that using the remaining 4 lines will be useful, too.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-23 05:55:06
January 23 2008 05:52 GMT
#20
Huh, using the fourth line is redundant. We can just use the third line's parity for z.

If we map signals in this fashion, we can send 2^(# of lines) signals! Maybe. I dunno how to go about proving it

Given any sequence of 4 bits, we can change it into any of 8 signals we wish to by flipping one of these bits, right? Um... let me think more...

Well duh, 2^(# of lines) isn't right, because it breaks down at 2^3. We still only have 4 signals.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
19:00
Masters Cup #150: Group B
davetesta27
Liquipedia
IPSL
17:00
Ro16 Group D
ZZZero vs rasowy
Napoleon vs KameZerg
Liquipedia
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
15:55
FSL teamleague CNvsASH, ASHvRR
Freeedom44
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Railgan 177
IndyStarCraft 129
BRAT_OK 50
MindelVK 33
EmSc Tv 11
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 20672
Calm 2244
Shuttle 809
Dewaltoss 123
Rock 52
Shine 40
NaDa 12
Dota 2
Gorgc5065
qojqva1662
Dendi976
League of Legends
rGuardiaN23
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1188
byalli655
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor521
Other Games
tarik_tv4919
gofns2159
Beastyqt556
DeMusliM332
Lowko200
Fuzer 200
Grubby120
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream7341
Other Games
EGCTV829
gamesdonequick563
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 11
EmSc2Tv 11
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 37
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach44
• HerbMon 12
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3173
• WagamamaTV401
• Ler87
League of Legends
• Nemesis3653
Other Games
• imaqtpie1420
• Shiphtur314
Upcoming Events
BSL 21
58m
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
14h 58m
RSL Revival
14h 58m
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
16h 58m
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs TBD
WardiTV Korean Royale
16h 58m
BSL 21
1d
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
IPSL
1d
Dewalt vs WolFix
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Wardi Open
1d 16h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 21h
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Korean Royale
2 days
BSL: GosuLeague
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
BSL: GosuLeague
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
6 days
IPSL
6 days
Julia vs Artosis
JDConan vs DragOn
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-14
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.