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Global warming doesnt exist?

Blogs > Schones_Chaos
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Schones_Chaos
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States226 Posts
January 14 2008 03:29 GMT
#1
In my debate class I got into an argument about global warming. I saying that it was a natural earth cycle because of the previous ice ages and those all ending without any human impact. Are there any good websites about this topic that I could use as a source for the debate?

Please, I don't want this to turn into a discussion about if its real or not thats why I posted in the blogs. Just would like helpful sites about global warming.

*
"Dont kill two birds with one stone, Bring a shotgun and get all the birds..."
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24770 Posts
January 14 2008 03:36 GMT
#2
Good luck finding credible sources on that...
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-14 03:41:08
January 14 2008 03:37 GMT
#3
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html - One of the more objective sources I could find about global warming.

Can the observed changes be explained by natural variability, including changes in solar output?

Since our entire climate system is fundamentally driven by energy from the sun, it stands to reason that if the sun's energy output were to change, then so would the climate. Since the advent of space-borne measurements in the late 1970s, solar output has indeed been shown to vary. There appears to be confirmation of earlier suggestions of an 11 (and 22) year cycle of irradiance. With only 20 years of reliable measurements however, it is difficult to deduce a trend. But, from the short record we have so far, the trend in solar irradiance is estimated at ~0.09 W/m2 compared to 0.4 W/m2 from well-mixed greenhouse gases. There are many indications that the sun also has a longer-term variation which has potentially contributed to the century-scale forcing to a greater degree. There is though, a great deal of uncertainty in estimates of solar irradiance beyond what can be measured by satellites, and still the contribution of direct solar irradiance forcing is small compared to the greenhouse gas component. However, our understanding of the indirect effects of changes in solar output and feedbacks in the climate system is minimal. There is much need to refine our understanding of key natural forcing mechanisms of the climate, including solar irradiance changes, in order to reduce uncertainty in our projections of future climate change.

In addition to changes in energy from the sun itself, the Earth's position and orientation relative to the sun (our orbit) also varies slightly, thereby bringing us closer and further away from the sun in predictable cycles (called Milankovitch cycles). Variations in these cycles are believed to be the cause of Earth's ice-ages (glacials). Particularly important for the development of glacials is the radiation receipt at high northern latitudes. Diminishing radiation at these latitudes during the summer months would have enabled winter snow and ice cover to persist throughout the year, eventually leading to a permanent snow- or icepack. While Milankovitch cycles have tremendous value as a theory to explain ice-ages and long-term changes in the climate, they are unlikely to have very much impact on the decade-century timescale. Over several centuries, it may be possible to observe the effect of these orbital parameters, however for the prediction of climate change in the 21st century, these changes will be far less important than radiative forcing from greenhouse gases.


From what we seem to know, humans are the main cause. The problem is that we don't know enough.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
CaucasianAsian
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Korea (South)11596 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-14 04:14:25
January 14 2008 04:05 GMT
#4
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7299668110171032533&q=the great global warming swindle&total=115&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
+ Show Spoiler +

1. Most scientists do not believe human activities threaten to disrupt the Earth’s climate. More than 17,000 scientists have signed a petition circulated by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine saying, in part, “there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.” (Go to www.oism.org for the complete petition and names of signers.) Surveys of climatologists show similar skepticism.

2. Our most reliable sources of temperature data show no global warming trend. Satellite readings of temperatures in the lower troposphere (an area scientists predict would immediately reflect any global warming) show no warming since readings began 23 years ago. These readings are accurate to within 0.01ºC, and are consistent with data from weather balloons. Only land-based temperature stations show a warming trend, and these stations do not cover the entire globe, are often contaminated by heat generated by nearby urban development, and are subject to human error.

3. Global climate computer models are too crude to predict future climate changes. All predictions of global warming are based on computer models, not historical data. In order to get their models to produce predictions that are close to their designers’ expectations, modelers resort to “flux adjustments” that can be 25 times larger than the effect of doubling carbon dioxide concentrations, the supposed trigger for global warming. Richard A. Kerr, a writer for Science, says “climate modelers have been ‘cheating’ for so long it’s almost become respectable.”

4. The IPCC did not prove that human activities are causing global warming. Alarmists frequently quote the executive summaries of reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, to support their predictions. But here is what the IPCC’s latest report, Climate Change 2001, actually says about predicting the future climate: “The Earth’s atmosphere-ocean dynamics is chaotic: its evolution is sensitive to small perturbations in initial conditions. This sensitivity limits our ability to predict the detailed evolution of weather; inevitable errors and uncertainties in the starting conditions of a weather forecast amplify through the forecast. As well as uncertainty in initial conditions, such predictions are also degraded by errors and uncertainties in our ability to represent accurately the significant climate processes.”

5. A modest amount of global warming, should it occur, would be beneficial to the natural world and to human civilization. Temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period (roughly 800 to 1200 AD), which allowed the Vikings to settle presently inhospitable Greenland, were higher than even the worst-case scenario reported by the IPCC. The period from about 5000-3000 BC, known as the “climatic optimum,” was even warmer and marked “a time when mankind began to build its first civilizations,” observe James Plummer and Frances B. Smith in a study for Consumer Alert. “There is good reason to believe that a warmer climate would have a similar effect on the health and welfare of our own far more advanced and adaptable civilization today.”

6. Efforts to quickly reduce human greenhouse gas emissions would be costly and would not stop Earth’s climate from changing. Reducing U.S. carbon dioxide emissions to 7 percent below 1990’s levels by the year 2012--the target set by the Kyoto Protocol--would require higher energy taxes and regulations causing the nation to lose 2.4 million jobs and $300 billion in annual economic output. Average household income nationwide would fall by $2,700, and state tax revenues would decline by $93.1 billion due to less taxable earned income and sales, and lower property values. Full implementation of the Kyoto Protocol by all participating nations would reduce global temperature in the year 2100 by a mere 0.14 degrees Celsius.

7. Efforts by state governments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are even more expensive and threaten to bust state budgets. After raising their spending with reckless abandon during the 1990s, states now face a cumulative projected deficit of more than $90 billion. Incredibly, most states nevertheless persist in backing unnecessary and expensive greenhouse gas reduction programs. New Jersey, for example, collects $358 million a year in utility taxes to fund greenhouse gas reduction programs. Such programs will have no impact on global greenhouse gas emissions. All they do is destroy jobs and waste money.

8. The best strategy to pursue is “no regrets.” The alternative to demands for immediate action to “stop global warming” is not to do nothing. The best strategy is to invest in atmospheric research now and in reducing emissions sometime in the future if the science becomes more compelling. In the meantime, investments should be made to reduce emissions only when such investments make economic sense in their own right.

This strategy is called “no regrets,” and it is roughly what the Bush administration has been doing. The U.S. spends more on global warming research each year than the entire rest of the world combined, and American businesses are leading the way in demonstrating new technologies for reducing and sequestering greenhouse gas emissions.


Calendar@ Fish Server: `iOps]..Stark
Schones_Chaos
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States226 Posts
January 14 2008 04:07 GMT
#5
On January 14 2008 13:05 CaucasianAsian wrote:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7299668110171032533&q=the great global warming swindle&total=115&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Thank you.
"Dont kill two birds with one stone, Bring a shotgun and get all the birds..."
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-14 04:16:37
January 14 2008 04:12 GMT
#6
On January 14 2008 13:05 CaucasianAsian wrote:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7299668110171032533&q=the great global warming swindle&total=115&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


Nice look at the IPCC in the first 10 minutes there. Their latest report was not 2001, however. The newer one is much more damning of human activity. I don't think any of us here know enough to say either way, but it wouldn't surprise me if a UN organization such as the IPCC was driven more by politics than science.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
January 14 2008 06:03 GMT
#7
On January 14 2008 13:05 CaucasianAsian wrote:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7299668110171032533&q=the great global warming swindle&total=115&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
+ Show Spoiler +

1. Most scientists do not believe human activities threaten to disrupt the Earth’s climate. More than 17,000 scientists have signed a petition circulated by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine saying, in part, “there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.” (Go to www.oism.org for the complete petition and names of signers.) Surveys of climatologists show similar skepticism.

2. Our most reliable sources of temperature data show no global warming trend. Satellite readings of temperatures in the lower troposphere (an area scientists predict would immediately reflect any global warming) show no warming since readings began 23 years ago. These readings are accurate to within 0.01ºC, and are consistent with data from weather balloons. Only land-based temperature stations show a warming trend, and these stations do not cover the entire globe, are often contaminated by heat generated by nearby urban development, and are subject to human error.

3. Global climate computer models are too crude to predict future climate changes. All predictions of global warming are based on computer models, not historical data. In order to get their models to produce predictions that are close to their designers’ expectations, modelers resort to “flux adjustments” that can be 25 times larger than the effect of doubling carbon dioxide concentrations, the supposed trigger for global warming. Richard A. Kerr, a writer for Science, says “climate modelers have been ‘cheating’ for so long it’s almost become respectable.”

4. The IPCC did not prove that human activities are causing global warming. Alarmists frequently quote the executive summaries of reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, to support their predictions. But here is what the IPCC’s latest report, Climate Change 2001, actually says about predicting the future climate: “The Earth’s atmosphere-ocean dynamics is chaotic: its evolution is sensitive to small perturbations in initial conditions. This sensitivity limits our ability to predict the detailed evolution of weather; inevitable errors and uncertainties in the starting conditions of a weather forecast amplify through the forecast. As well as uncertainty in initial conditions, such predictions are also degraded by errors and uncertainties in our ability to represent accurately the significant climate processes.”

5. A modest amount of global warming, should it occur, would be beneficial to the natural world and to human civilization. Temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period (roughly 800 to 1200 AD), which allowed the Vikings to settle presently inhospitable Greenland, were higher than even the worst-case scenario reported by the IPCC. The period from about 5000-3000 BC, known as the “climatic optimum,” was even warmer and marked “a time when mankind began to build its first civilizations,” observe James Plummer and Frances B. Smith in a study for Consumer Alert. “There is good reason to believe that a warmer climate would have a similar effect on the health and welfare of our own far more advanced and adaptable civilization today.”

6. Efforts to quickly reduce human greenhouse gas emissions would be costly and would not stop Earth’s climate from changing. Reducing U.S. carbon dioxide emissions to 7 percent below 1990’s levels by the year 2012--the target set by the Kyoto Protocol--would require higher energy taxes and regulations causing the nation to lose 2.4 million jobs and $300 billion in annual economic output. Average household income nationwide would fall by $2,700, and state tax revenues would decline by $93.1 billion due to less taxable earned income and sales, and lower property values. Full implementation of the Kyoto Protocol by all participating nations would reduce global temperature in the year 2100 by a mere 0.14 degrees Celsius.

7. Efforts by state governments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are even more expensive and threaten to bust state budgets. After raising their spending with reckless abandon during the 1990s, states now face a cumulative projected deficit of more than $90 billion. Incredibly, most states nevertheless persist in backing unnecessary and expensive greenhouse gas reduction programs. New Jersey, for example, collects $358 million a year in utility taxes to fund greenhouse gas reduction programs. Such programs will have no impact on global greenhouse gas emissions. All they do is destroy jobs and waste money.

8. The best strategy to pursue is “no regrets.” The alternative to demands for immediate action to “stop global warming” is not to do nothing. The best strategy is to invest in atmospheric research now and in reducing emissions sometime in the future if the science becomes more compelling. In the meantime, investments should be made to reduce emissions only when such investments make economic sense in their own right.

This strategy is called “no regrets,” and it is roughly what the Bush administration has been doing. The U.S. spends more on global warming research each year than the entire rest of the world combined, and American businesses are leading the way in demonstrating new technologies for reducing and sequestering greenhouse gas emissions.



I like how you have no sources for your claims and just spew a bunch of BS. The EPA disagrees with you on point 2, unless you think the government is lying to you:
* For the period 1958-2006, temperatures measured by weather balloons warmed at a rate of 0.22°F per decade near the surface and 0.27°F per decade in the mid-troposphere. The 2006 global mid-troposphere temperatures were 1.01°F above the 1971-2000 average, the third warmest on record.
* For the period beginning in 1979, when satellite measurements of troposphere temperatures began, various satellite data sets for the mid-troposphere showed similar rates of warming — ranging from 0.09°F per decade to 0.34°F per decade, depending on the method of analysis.
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recenttc.html
man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
January 14 2008 06:23 GMT
#8
http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2007/01/22/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-global-warming-argument/
http://www.livescience.com/environment/070201_ap_climate_report.html
I'm too lazy to look for more, maybe later
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
January 14 2008 06:30 GMT
#9
Wikipedia seems like an obvious place to go. The References section of the "Global Warming" article is huge.

Probably a matter of wording, but to answer the original question: Yes. Global temperatures have been steadily increasing over the past 50 years. This is not open to interpretation, this is not ambiguous at all. This is simply reading the thermometer and recording the temperature. The globe is warming. I usually hesitate to openly insult people, but anyone who disagrees on this point is an idiot. There is logically no difference between that and insisting that the sun did not rise this morning.

What is disputed is what is causing the warming, and whether or not we should do anything about it (the trend might stop, or reverse, before it causes damage).
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
January 14 2008 06:46 GMT
#10
about the ice ages and CO2 http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=13
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
January 14 2008 06:50 GMT
#11
The problem with Wikipedia when it comes to bleeding edge science (bleeding edge anything for that matter) is that the people on the forefront have jobs and lives, meanwhile the people who make Wikipedia entries do not and have way too much free time.

So it works well for general information and the listing of sources is great, but generally the people with the greatest expertise have more important things to do.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Schones_Chaos
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States226 Posts
January 14 2008 14:10 GMT
#12
On January 14 2008 15:03 man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2008 13:05 CaucasianAsian wrote:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7299668110171032533&q=the great global warming swindle&total=115&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
+ Show Spoiler +

1. Most scientists do not believe human activities threaten to disrupt the Earth’s climate. More than 17,000 scientists have signed a petition circulated by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine saying, in part, “there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.” (Go to www.oism.org for the complete petition and names of signers.) Surveys of climatologists show similar skepticism.

2. Our most reliable sources of temperature data show no global warming trend. Satellite readings of temperatures in the lower troposphere (an area scientists predict would immediately reflect any global warming) show no warming since readings began 23 years ago. These readings are accurate to within 0.01ºC, and are consistent with data from weather balloons. Only land-based temperature stations show a warming trend, and these stations do not cover the entire globe, are often contaminated by heat generated by nearby urban development, and are subject to human error.

3. Global climate computer models are too crude to predict future climate changes. All predictions of global warming are based on computer models, not historical data. In order to get their models to produce predictions that are close to their designers’ expectations, modelers resort to “flux adjustments” that can be 25 times larger than the effect of doubling carbon dioxide concentrations, the supposed trigger for global warming. Richard A. Kerr, a writer for Science, says “climate modelers have been ‘cheating’ for so long it’s almost become respectable.”

4. The IPCC did not prove that human activities are causing global warming. Alarmists frequently quote the executive summaries of reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, to support their predictions. But here is what the IPCC’s latest report, Climate Change 2001, actually says about predicting the future climate: “The Earth’s atmosphere-ocean dynamics is chaotic: its evolution is sensitive to small perturbations in initial conditions. This sensitivity limits our ability to predict the detailed evolution of weather; inevitable errors and uncertainties in the starting conditions of a weather forecast amplify through the forecast. As well as uncertainty in initial conditions, such predictions are also degraded by errors and uncertainties in our ability to represent accurately the significant climate processes.”

5. A modest amount of global warming, should it occur, would be beneficial to the natural world and to human civilization. Temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period (roughly 800 to 1200 AD), which allowed the Vikings to settle presently inhospitable Greenland, were higher than even the worst-case scenario reported by the IPCC. The period from about 5000-3000 BC, known as the “climatic optimum,” was even warmer and marked “a time when mankind began to build its first civilizations,” observe James Plummer and Frances B. Smith in a study for Consumer Alert. “There is good reason to believe that a warmer climate would have a similar effect on the health and welfare of our own far more advanced and adaptable civilization today.”

6. Efforts to quickly reduce human greenhouse gas emissions would be costly and would not stop Earth’s climate from changing. Reducing U.S. carbon dioxide emissions to 7 percent below 1990’s levels by the year 2012--the target set by the Kyoto Protocol--would require higher energy taxes and regulations causing the nation to lose 2.4 million jobs and $300 billion in annual economic output. Average household income nationwide would fall by $2,700, and state tax revenues would decline by $93.1 billion due to less taxable earned income and sales, and lower property values. Full implementation of the Kyoto Protocol by all participating nations would reduce global temperature in the year 2100 by a mere 0.14 degrees Celsius.

7. Efforts by state governments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are even more expensive and threaten to bust state budgets. After raising their spending with reckless abandon during the 1990s, states now face a cumulative projected deficit of more than $90 billion. Incredibly, most states nevertheless persist in backing unnecessary and expensive greenhouse gas reduction programs. New Jersey, for example, collects $358 million a year in utility taxes to fund greenhouse gas reduction programs. Such programs will have no impact on global greenhouse gas emissions. All they do is destroy jobs and waste money.

8. The best strategy to pursue is “no regrets.” The alternative to demands for immediate action to “stop global warming” is not to do nothing. The best strategy is to invest in atmospheric research now and in reducing emissions sometime in the future if the science becomes more compelling. In the meantime, investments should be made to reduce emissions only when such investments make economic sense in their own right.

This strategy is called “no regrets,” and it is roughly what the Bush administration has been doing. The U.S. spends more on global warming research each year than the entire rest of the world combined, and American businesses are leading the way in demonstrating new technologies for reducing and sequestering greenhouse gas emissions.



I like how you have no sources for your claims and just spew a bunch of BS. The EPA disagrees with you on point 2, unless you think the government is lying to you:
* For the period 1958-2006, temperatures measured by weather balloons warmed at a rate of 0.22°F per decade near the surface and 0.27°F per decade in the mid-troposphere. The 2006 global mid-troposphere temperatures were 1.01°F above the 1971-2000 average, the third warmest on record.
* For the period beginning in 1979, when satellite measurements of troposphere temperatures began, various satellite data sets for the mid-troposphere showed similar rates of warming — ranging from 0.09°F per decade to 0.34°F per decade, depending on the method of analysis.
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recenttc.html


Learn to read. The second thing I said is that I do not want to turn this into a discussion.
"Dont kill two birds with one stone, Bring a shotgun and get all the birds..."
Schones_Chaos
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States226 Posts
January 14 2008 14:14 GMT
#13
On January 14 2008 15:30 BottleAbuser wrote:
Wikipedia seems like an obvious place to go. The References section of the "Global Warming" article is huge.

Probably a matter of wording, but to answer the original question: Yes. Global temperatures have been steadily increasing over the past 50 years. This is not open to interpretation, this is not ambiguous at all. This is simply reading the thermometer and recording the temperature. The globe is warming. I usually hesitate to openly insult people, but anyone who disagrees on this point is an idiot. There is logically no difference between that and insisting that the sun did not rise this morning.

What is disputed is what is causing the warming, and whether or not we should do anything about it (the trend might stop, or reverse, before it causes damage).


Go online, read about earths orbit around the sun and the natural wobble which causes variations in the distance from the sun. Since the only known source of enough heat to sustain life on earth is the sun, the sun obviously has the largest impact on it. Imo its a natural cycle (look at all the other ice ages supposedly caused by heating and then decreasing of the earths temperature). How can we, humans be causing the earth to heat up when theres proof it already happens without humans?
"Dont kill two birds with one stone, Bring a shotgun and get all the birds..."
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
January 14 2008 14:32 GMT
#14
The acceleration at which it occurs, damage to the ozone layer and the greenhouse effect. I don't know how truthful it is but you're going to get slaughtered in a debate by saying

How can we, humans be causing the earth to heat up when theres proof it already happens without humans?


Fires occur without the help of humans, but we also know we can cause them.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32132 Posts
January 14 2008 14:36 GMT
#15
Hey man, I'm pretty sure all those chemicals we dump into the atmoshere have no effect on anything! GL winning this debate lulz
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
January 14 2008 18:38 GMT
#16
On January 14 2008 13:05 CaucasianAsian wrote:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7299668110171032533&q=the great global warming swindle&total=115&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

I finished watching and it has some good points but it's pretty clearly a propaganda film, just like An Inconvenient Truth. There's a lot of criticism on both sides, but I think the most important aspect of the film is in the last 5-10 minutes, with regards to developing countries that are being strangled by the environmental movement.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-15 02:55:56
January 15 2008 02:42 GMT
#17
On January 14 2008 23:14 Schones_Chaos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2008 15:30 BottleAbuser wrote:
Wikipedia seems like an obvious place to go. The References section of the "Global Warming" article is huge.

Probably a matter of wording, but to answer the original question: Yes. Global temperatures have been steadily increasing over the past 50 years. This is not open to interpretation, this is not ambiguous at all. This is simply reading the thermometer and recording the temperature. The globe is warming. I usually hesitate to openly insult people, but anyone who disagrees on this point is an idiot. There is logically no difference between that and insisting that the sun did not rise this morning.

What is disputed is what is causing the warming, and whether or not we should do anything about it (the trend might stop, or reverse, before it causes damage).


Go online, read about earths orbit around the sun and the natural wobble which causes variations in the distance from the sun. Since the only known source of enough heat to sustain life on earth is the sun, the sun obviously has the largest impact on it. Imo its a natural cycle (look at all the other ice ages supposedly caused by heating and then decreasing of the earths temperature). How can we, humans be causing the earth to heat up when theres proof it already happens without humans?

Wrong, thermal vents in the ocean support life without the sun. Also, the ice ages are a poor example to use because we are not coming out of an ice age, yet the earth is warming. Therefore, current warming is not part of that cycle.
man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
January 15 2008 02:45 GMT
#18
On January 14 2008 23:10 Schones_Chaos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2008 15:03 man wrote:
On January 14 2008 13:05 CaucasianAsian wrote:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7299668110171032533&q=the great global warming swindle&total=115&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
+ Show Spoiler +

1. Most scientists do not believe human activities threaten to disrupt the Earth’s climate. More than 17,000 scientists have signed a petition circulated by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine saying, in part, “there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.” (Go to www.oism.org for the complete petition and names of signers.) Surveys of climatologists show similar skepticism.

2. Our most reliable sources of temperature data show no global warming trend. Satellite readings of temperatures in the lower troposphere (an area scientists predict would immediately reflect any global warming) show no warming since readings began 23 years ago. These readings are accurate to within 0.01ºC, and are consistent with data from weather balloons. Only land-based temperature stations show a warming trend, and these stations do not cover the entire globe, are often contaminated by heat generated by nearby urban development, and are subject to human error.

3. Global climate computer models are too crude to predict future climate changes. All predictions of global warming are based on computer models, not historical data. In order to get their models to produce predictions that are close to their designers’ expectations, modelers resort to “flux adjustments” that can be 25 times larger than the effect of doubling carbon dioxide concentrations, the supposed trigger for global warming. Richard A. Kerr, a writer for Science, says “climate modelers have been ‘cheating’ for so long it’s almost become respectable.”

4. The IPCC did not prove that human activities are causing global warming. Alarmists frequently quote the executive summaries of reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, to support their predictions. But here is what the IPCC’s latest report, Climate Change 2001, actually says about predicting the future climate: “The Earth’s atmosphere-ocean dynamics is chaotic: its evolution is sensitive to small perturbations in initial conditions. This sensitivity limits our ability to predict the detailed evolution of weather; inevitable errors and uncertainties in the starting conditions of a weather forecast amplify through the forecast. As well as uncertainty in initial conditions, such predictions are also degraded by errors and uncertainties in our ability to represent accurately the significant climate processes.”

5. A modest amount of global warming, should it occur, would be beneficial to the natural world and to human civilization. Temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period (roughly 800 to 1200 AD), which allowed the Vikings to settle presently inhospitable Greenland, were higher than even the worst-case scenario reported by the IPCC. The period from about 5000-3000 BC, known as the “climatic optimum,” was even warmer and marked “a time when mankind began to build its first civilizations,” observe James Plummer and Frances B. Smith in a study for Consumer Alert. “There is good reason to believe that a warmer climate would have a similar effect on the health and welfare of our own far more advanced and adaptable civilization today.”

6. Efforts to quickly reduce human greenhouse gas emissions would be costly and would not stop Earth’s climate from changing. Reducing U.S. carbon dioxide emissions to 7 percent below 1990’s levels by the year 2012--the target set by the Kyoto Protocol--would require higher energy taxes and regulations causing the nation to lose 2.4 million jobs and $300 billion in annual economic output. Average household income nationwide would fall by $2,700, and state tax revenues would decline by $93.1 billion due to less taxable earned income and sales, and lower property values. Full implementation of the Kyoto Protocol by all participating nations would reduce global temperature in the year 2100 by a mere 0.14 degrees Celsius.

7. Efforts by state governments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are even more expensive and threaten to bust state budgets. After raising their spending with reckless abandon during the 1990s, states now face a cumulative projected deficit of more than $90 billion. Incredibly, most states nevertheless persist in backing unnecessary and expensive greenhouse gas reduction programs. New Jersey, for example, collects $358 million a year in utility taxes to fund greenhouse gas reduction programs. Such programs will have no impact on global greenhouse gas emissions. All they do is destroy jobs and waste money.

8. The best strategy to pursue is “no regrets.” The alternative to demands for immediate action to “stop global warming” is not to do nothing. The best strategy is to invest in atmospheric research now and in reducing emissions sometime in the future if the science becomes more compelling. In the meantime, investments should be made to reduce emissions only when such investments make economic sense in their own right.

This strategy is called “no regrets,” and it is roughly what the Bush administration has been doing. The U.S. spends more on global warming research each year than the entire rest of the world combined, and American businesses are leading the way in demonstrating new technologies for reducing and sequestering greenhouse gas emissions.



I like how you have no sources for your claims and just spew a bunch of BS. The EPA disagrees with you on point 2, unless you think the government is lying to you:
* For the period 1958-2006, temperatures measured by weather balloons warmed at a rate of 0.22°F per decade near the surface and 0.27°F per decade in the mid-troposphere. The 2006 global mid-troposphere temperatures were 1.01°F above the 1971-2000 average, the third warmest on record.
* For the period beginning in 1979, when satellite measurements of troposphere temperatures began, various satellite data sets for the mid-troposphere showed similar rates of warming — ranging from 0.09°F per decade to 0.34°F per decade, depending on the method of analysis.
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recenttc.html


Learn to read. The second thing I said is that I do not want to turn this into a discussion.

I just wanted to point out that you should be careful where you get your information. You don't want to go into a debate with a bunch of "facts" that someone pulled out of their ass, do you?
CaucasianAsian
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Korea (South)11596 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-15 03:21:49
January 15 2008 03:14 GMT
#19
I didn't pull them out of my ass. They come from the heartland institute, meeting with the Iowa Government Oversight Committee.

source:

http://staffweb.legis.state.ia.us/lfb/subcom/oversight/Interim_2004/docs_handouts/12_08_04Lehr Testimony .pdf
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man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
January 15 2008 03:35 GMT
#20
The Heartland Institute is not a credible source, my friend. They receive funding from Exxon, what do you expect they are going to say about global warming?? http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Institute
Schones_Chaos
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States226 Posts
January 15 2008 04:23 GMT
#21
On January 15 2008 11:42 man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2008 23:14 Schones_Chaos wrote:
On January 14 2008 15:30 BottleAbuser wrote:
Wikipedia seems like an obvious place to go. The References section of the "Global Warming" article is huge.

Probably a matter of wording, but to answer the original question: Yes. Global temperatures have been steadily increasing over the past 50 years. This is not open to interpretation, this is not ambiguous at all. This is simply reading the thermometer and recording the temperature. The globe is warming. I usually hesitate to openly insult people, but anyone who disagrees on this point is an idiot. There is logically no difference between that and insisting that the sun did not rise this morning.

What is disputed is what is causing the warming, and whether or not we should do anything about it (the trend might stop, or reverse, before it causes damage).


Go online, read about earths orbit around the sun and the natural wobble which causes variations in the distance from the sun. Since the only known source of enough heat to sustain life on earth is the sun, the sun obviously has the largest impact on it. Imo its a natural cycle (look at all the other ice ages supposedly caused by heating and then decreasing of the earths temperature). How can we, humans be causing the earth to heat up when theres proof it already happens without humans?

Wrong, thermal vents in the ocean support life without the sun. Also, the ice ages are a poor example to use because we are not coming out of an ice age, yet the earth is warming. Therefore, current warming is not part of that cycle.


The earth is still warming up from the last age (within the last 10000 years)....
"Dont kill two birds with one stone, Bring a shotgun and get all the birds..."
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
January 15 2008 05:14 GMT
#22
You seem to have misunderstood my post.

That the earth's average temperature has been steadily increasing is agreed on by... well, everyone. Judging from your post, you agree.

The real debate is about three questions:

Did we cause it?

Can we stop it?

Should we try to stop it?

For some people, the first question isn't very interesting. For some people, the second question eclipses the third question. There are no definite, clear-cut answers to these questions (thanks to imperfect and incomplete climate models, which do include gas emissions and solar cycles and whatnot), which is why there is a debate.

And no thanks to the "go read" comment. I know how to read, and I don't bother commenting on things I'm clueless about. The variations in solar radiation falling on Earth (excepting the yearly seasons) are nearly insignificant, and even the largest of these has a period of less than 2 decades. The evidence says that the lasting trend of increasing temperature over the last half century is probably not caused by Earth's orbit (or solar cycles, either).

The purpose of this thread is to get you sources, so I should cite the ones I'm using in this post (sorry they're long):

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_Ch09.pdf
http://royalsociety.org/downloaddoc.asp?id=1630

There are plenty more good ones listed on the Global Warming page of Wikipedia. No, these will probably not be ones put out there yesterday, but I haven't heard of any breaking developments in the field in the past year or two. The arguments and data are still (!) valid.
Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
Schones_Chaos
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States226 Posts
January 15 2008 05:40 GMT
#23
BottleAbuser the statement im trying to disprove is, "Humans have the most significant impact on the climate change of the earth."
So im saying that its more of a natural cycle of the earth then humans contributing to it.

These are my personal opinions based on what I read


Did we cause it?
An insignificant part of it, not enough to affect the natural cycle

Can we stop it?
Stop our impact on it, we could but it would be hard for all of humanity to learn to live without gasoline and modern life.

Should we try to stop it?
If its going to affect us then of course.

"Dont kill two birds with one stone, Bring a shotgun and get all the birds..."
CaucasianAsian
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Korea (South)11596 Posts
January 15 2008 11:51 GMT
#24
On January 15 2008 12:35 man wrote:
The Heartland Institute is not a credible source, my friend. They receive funding from Exxon, what do you expect they are going to say about global warming?? http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Institute


I am aware of what they say. They do not believe that the main factor of global warming is humans, so they fund those who believe the same.

It is retarded to think that global warming is not happening. But to think humans are, is a controversial matter. Of which you obviously do not stand on the side that I do, and that's ok. The research they have is old, yes, but it is/was still valid.
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