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A few weeks ago I was delivering some produce with my Dad, and as we were parking the car there was a domestic dispute going on in the parking lot. There was this big tattooed guy who had pushed his girlfriend to the ground, and was yelling at her and punching her car. My Dad immediately yelled out for him to stop, and he walked over and stood in front of the girl and started talking to the guy. I was afraid the guy was going to attack my Dad so I put the tray of vegetables on the ground and stood next to my Dad but luckily the guy just cussed us out and walked away.
Afterwards I felt kind of ashamed of myself that I probably would not have gotten involved, or at most called the cops (someone else did and they soon arrived), if it was just me. It’s easy to rationalize that the guy could have had a weapon or been hyped up on drugs, but the truth is that I think I just didn’t want to engage in conflict on behalf of a total stranger. Growing up I used to watch samurai shows and stuff and fantasize how I would be brave and heroic if it came down to it. And I often thought of that scene in Saving Private Ryan where the guy is just standing there in fear while his buddy is being knifed through the heart in front of him. I always hoped I would never be that guy, but maybe I am if my inclination is to just walk by while a woman potentially gets beat up by her boyfriend in a parking lot.
As much as I feel ashamed of myself I also feel proud of my Dad. It’s always been his in his character to help people who were being bullied, but to do it in a fair and compassionate way that didn’t degrade the bullier either. I think that’s part of why he was well beloved when he was a teacher, vice principal and coach. I think it was last year there were a few students of his that called him out of the blue saying how much he meant to them. Must have been 40 or 50 years ago that he taught them, he’s in his mid 70s now. I wish I could write more about his good qualities but I am a crappy writer and fear I won’t do him justice.
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People have defined courage as the knowledge to act reasonably in all situations. Let us deliberate for a while if your dad's act was prudent. I know the initial instinct is strong and that urged your dad to act, there's no denying he was active. We have to consider if it was reasonable.
You know nothing about the situation, you see a guy yelling to a girl. What if the girl deserved the treatment? What if we go to an extreme and she butchered a baby or a cat or a dog? Highly unlikely, yes. Yet by no means impossible. Let's go to a milder case. What if she stole money from the guy? Or did something to his car? Is it so impossible to think that because of her sex and the situation she's in she's incapable of doing harm? I can come up with maybe like 15 scenarios where the girl might have done something to deserve such treatment and even more. I shouldn't need to expand further.
All in all, I would call your dad's deed rash and instinctive, not brave at all. For in courage there's an element and deliberation and reason and I think that was missing.
There's a multitude of situations where I'd excuse or even commend a citizen intervening. If it was a mere child subjected to the treatment of the involved man, then I'd say it's an admirable deed. For when a child is on the ground we need way less information to deduce that what the man is doing is most likely gravely wrong. As for adults, without knowing what's been going on previously, I wouldn't interfere. There's a procedure prescribed in the law for such situations, the one you mention, where you call a government employee who has the legal power to deal with such situation. As for me that would've been the proper course of action.
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I don't think this was an invitation to wonder why the OP's Dad was wrong and why the woman must've deserved getting hit and thrown to the ground. Indeed, I can't think of many reasons why someone would deserve getting assaulted and thrown to the ground, getting yelled at and having their property damaged. A man assaulting a woman doesn't make it any better. Can we leave out the shitty victim blaming bullshit, please?
Thanks for sharing, Starlightsun, everyone has those difficult moments that come which test our character. You always wonder what you would do in the difficult situation, but when it finally arrives it can be an all bets are off kinda deal. We all want to think we'd stand up and do the right thing, but it's rarely easy. It's something I think about a lot. I'm glad your dad was around to make a stand for someone who was in a bad moment.
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On June 25 2022 19:03 JoinTheRain wrote:
People have defined courage as the knowledge to act reasonably in all situations. Let us deliberate for a while if your dad's act was prudent. I know the initial instinct is strong and that urged your dad to act, there's no denying he was active. We have to consider if it was reasonable.
You know nothing about the situation, you see a guy yelling to a girl. What if the girl deserved the treatment? What if we go to an extreme and she butchered a baby or a cat or a dog? Highly unlikely, yes. Yet by no means impossible. Let's go to a milder case. What if she stole money from the guy? Or did something to his car? Is it so impossible to think that because of her sex and the situation she's in she's incapable of doing harm? I can come up with maybe like 15 scenarios where the girl might have done something to deserve such treatment and even more. I shouldn't need to expand further.
All in all, I would call your dad's deed rash and instinctive, not brave at all. For in courage there's an element and deliberation and reason and I think that was missing.
There's a multitude of situations where I'd excuse or even commend a citizen intervening. If it was a mere child subjected to the treatment of the involved man, then I'd say it's an admirable deed. For when a child is on the ground we need way less information to deduce that what the man is doing is most likely gravely wrong. As for adults, without knowing what's been going on previously, I wouldn't interfere. There's a procedure prescribed in the law for such situations, the one you mention, where you call a government employee who has the legal power to deal with such situation. As for me that would've been the proper course of action.
I guess if that is the definition of courage/bravery we are using then, yeah. But it seems to me like it would be very easy to reason one's way out of not helping at all in almost any case but the most extreme. I had thoughts that it's none of my business, maybe it was deserved, etc. But my feeling is that my Dad read the situation more correctly and that action was called for rather than deliberation. It was clear at a glance that this was a couple having an argument. Even if she had stolen money from him or did something to his car, I don't think it is right to beat her up (legally if not morally), which everything in their voices and posture was telegraphing. Or to look at it another way, it's better for the guy that he merely cussed us out and walked away, rather than beat her up and got arrested for assault. If my Dad had attacked him that would have been bad for everyone, but by stepping in and talking to him it gave the guy a chance to walk away and cool down, and prevented the girl from being beaten.
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On June 26 2022 01:42 NewSunshine wrote:
Thanks for sharing, Starlightsun, everyone has those difficult moments that come which test our character. You always wonder what you would do in the difficult situation, but when it finally arrives it can be an all bets are off kinda deal. We all want to think we'd stand up and do the right thing, but it's rarely easy. It's something I think about a lot. I'm glad your dad was around to make a stand for someone who was in a bad moment.
Thanks... yeah definitely on the "all bets are off". This all probably took place in the course of a minute or something. We were very lucky too that it didn't come to violence. For my Dad afterwards it was like nothing had happened but my hands were shaking because I thought I was going to have to fight. I hesitated to share this and to use a loaded word like "brave", though I can definitely attest to my own cowardice through introspection, and feel proud of my Dad knowing his character and also his skill in being firm yet not escalatory or antagonistic. I wish I could convey it better in words.
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Yeah, I would sooner say it's cowardice, rather than bravery, to wait for the world to hand you complete information before you act on a situation. It's nice to want to act in an unequivocally reasonable and measured way, but life doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you gotta react in the moment. Bravery is better expressed by taking action based on what feels right, without necessarily having other sources of validation.
And it's definitely an art to de-escalate conflict. It's hard to keep your head in tense or negative situations. Probably even harder than making the decision to stand up to somebody in the first place.
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That first reply was intense; why would it be justified to aggressively hurt someone, no matter what they did to you, unless you are acting in self defense in that same moment? Plus the rest of the reply contradicts your first philosophy, like you are saying the father should have called the police instead; if the woman had stealed from him, or harmed him previously, then by your words he should have called the police on her, and let them deal with it. By retaliating violently if that is even the case, he goes in the wrong as well; I hope for her that she leaves him, or stays away from him;
To the op: your father intervened to de-escalate the situation, and he did it without violence, and that’s when it works in these cases (if it works); but yeah, him being there, you should not take it as a test of your character, because he took care of the situation. The question is if you really are wondering about it, is what would you do if you are alone carrying produce and see that? Would you walk him on the head with a carrot? Would you stand in the middle like he did? Would you call the police? Until you are faced with that situation when you are the only one watching a scene like that you can’ t really know; but congrats on being introspective and sharing this story, some people would experience that from the outside and never ponder of it or consider it afterward
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On June 26 2022 05:05 pebble444 wrote:
To the op: your father intervened to de-escalate the situation, and he did it without violence, and that’s when it works in these cases (if it works); but yeah, him being there, you should not take it as a test of your character, because he took care of the situation. The question is if you really are wondering about it, is what would you do if you are alone carrying produce and see that? Would you walk him on the head with a carrot? Would you stand in the middle like he did? Would you call the police? Until you are faced with that situation when you are the only one watching a scene like that you can’ t really know; but congrats on being introspective and sharing this story, some people would experience that from the outside and never ponder of it or consider it afterward
Yeah I guess I can't really know what I would have done had he not intervened. I just strongly suspect that I would have tried to avoid the situation entirely or maybe call the cops. I wish I had more of my Dad's decisive character.
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I think not trying to get involved is just the normal reaction and it's the recognition that it's cowardice that allows us to step up. We often look to these people who are brave and step up, but often they have to overcome their own hesitation and fear first as well.
Recognizing that we're not brave by nature is what allows us to learn to step up the next time. So in that regard I'd see it as a valuable lesson to learn from.
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On June 27 2022 02:06 Archeon wrote:
I think not trying to get involved is just the normal reaction and it's the recognition that it's cowardice that allows us to step up. We often look to these people who are brave and step up, but often they have to overcome their own hesitation and fear first as well.
Recognizing that we're not brave by nature is what allows us to learn to step up the next time. So in that regard I'd see it as a valuable lesson to learn from.
That's a good way to look at it.
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Let me be more direct:
So, you feel like a coward?
That is only your ego and self judgment speaking,
Don’ t judge yourself that harshly; your father is in your circle the alpha man, and he took care of that situation and succeeded against what you portrayed to be a gang member;
One day you will succeed in his footsteps, and you will not have any doubt any more as to who is now in charge of protecting innocent people from those around them.
When the occasion will arise, starlight sun will surmise
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Just wanna highlight that it's more important to de-escalade the situation than to be 'brave'.
The objective is that nobody gets hurt, not to teach the guy a LESSON, or to show the girl you are a real MAN.
So it may be better to try to calm the man down and play to his character, rather than stand between the two.
Or buy time by talking senselessly, or try to attract the attention of the crowd, etc. Many techniques are available here.
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On June 27 2022 12:50 Jubinell wrote:
Just wanna highlight that it's more important to de-escalade the situation than to be 'brave'.
The objective is that nobody gets hurt, not to teach the guy a LESSON, or to show the girl you are a real MAN.
So it may be better to try to calm the man down and play to his character, rather than stand between the two.
Or buy time by talking senselessly, or try to attract the attention of the crowd, etc. Many techniques are available here.
Certainly. I didn't intend to say that it would be brave to go on the offense. Just that there was a risk of violence to interfere at all and it would have been easy to look the other way. I'm sure my Dad wouldn't have chosen the word brave but I still think it was. When I told him afterwards I was afraid he was going to be attacked he joked "Nah that would have been stupid. Elder abuse."
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Bisutopia19332 Posts
I think responsibility is very important when considering you actions. This is how it has been for me. As a kid/teen I have a responsibility to myself to keep myself safe. As a 6'3 young single adult I always stepped up, especially in a physical or violent situation without a second thought. A drunk guy was once chasing his gf down a stair well and I had to take a pretty good hit from him as I pinned him down until he was able to get calm. Now, married with a family in my thirties, I would still step up in most situations, but I have to consider whether my actions would leave my family without a father and income earner.
My large size probably plays a huge role in my bravery. I always think of the dynamic like with dogs. Large dogs are usually more quiet and less confrontational compared those very small dogs that bark aggressively at anything that alerts their senses. I think I have less confrontations because of my size and when I do have them I'm fortunate I can end them quickly. But smaller people have to really be brave and much more street/word savvy to handle situations.
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On June 27 2022 20:25 BisuDagger wrote:
I think responsibility is very important when considering you actions. This is how it has been for me. As a kid/teen I have a responsibility to myself to keep myself safe. As a 6'3 young single adult I always stepped, especially in a physical or violent situation without a second thought. A drunk guy was once chasing his gf down a stair well and I had to take a pretty good hit from him as I pinned him down until he was able to get calm. Now, married with a family in my thirties, I would still step up in most situations, but I have to consider whether my actions would leave myself without a father and income earner.
My large size probably plays a huge role in my bravery. I always think of the dynamic like with dogs. Large dogs are usually more quiet and less confrontational compared those very small dogs that bark aggressively at anything that alerts their senses. I think I have less confrontations because of my size and when I do have them I'm fortunate I can end them quickly. But smaller people have to really be brave and much more street/word savvy to handle situations.
Good on you for making it a habit of helping. I'm pretty small so like you're saying about the aggressive dog, I may have had an exaggerated reaction to the potential of violence in this situation.
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On June 27 2022 20:25 BisuDagger wrote:
I think responsibility is very important when considering you actions. This is how it has been for me. As a kid/teen I have a responsibility to myself to keep myself safe. As a 6'3 young single adult I always stepped up, especially in a physical or violent situation without a second thought. A drunk guy was once chasing his gf down a stair well and I had to take a pretty good hit from him as I pinned him down until he was able to get calm. Now, married with a family in my thirties, I would still step up in most situations, but I have to consider whether my actions would leave my family without a father and income earner.
My large size probably plays a huge role in my bravery. I always think of the dynamic like with dogs. Large dogs are usually more quiet and less confrontational compared those very small dogs that bark aggressively at anything that alerts their senses. I think I have less confrontations because of my size and when I do have them I'm fortunate I can end them quickly. But smaller people have to really be brave and much more street/word savvy to handle situations.
I recognized myself in your words. Even before the appearance of seven, and especially before the birth of my daughter, I was ready to get into a conflict in any situation. But now I will think a hundred times before getting into a fight and recently caught myself thinking, have I become somewhat weak? I did not find the answer for myself, I just decided that I had become too old for this shit.
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On June 28 2022 22:30 SergZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 20:25 BisuDagger wrote:
I think responsibility is very important when considering you actions. This is how it has been for me. As a kid/teen I have a responsibility to myself to keep myself safe. As a 6'3 young single adult I always stepped up, especially in a physical or violent situation without a second thought. A drunk guy was once chasing his gf down a stair well and I had to take a pretty good hit from him as I pinned him down until he was able to get calm. Now, married with a family in my thirties, I would still step up in most situations, but I have to consider whether my actions would leave my family without a father and income earner.
My large size probably plays a huge role in my bravery. I always think of the dynamic like with dogs. Large dogs are usually more quiet and less confrontational compared those very small dogs that bark aggressively at anything that alerts their senses. I think I have less confrontations because of my size and when I do have them I'm fortunate I can end them quickly. But smaller people have to really be brave and much more street/word savvy to handle situations. I recognized myself in your words. Even before the appearance of seven, and especially before the birth of my daughter, I was ready to get into a conflict in any situation. But now I will think a hundred times before getting into a fight and recently caught myself thinking, have I become somewhat weak? I did not find the answer for myself, I just decided that I had become too old for this shit.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Every learning experience brings you closer. Digesting the ones that leave a bitter aftertaste is something you can work on.
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I commend your dad on his reaction, and I also commend you for your thoughts and ponderings.
I must live a very sheltered existence. I am 32 years old and have never experienced a situation like the one you described; I've heard a ton of stories like this but have never seen anything of the sort happen first-hand. I either walk around blindfolded or am very lucky. So I'm still stuck with just wondering what I would do if the situation did occur. Of course I want to say I would react the way your dad did, but I am not sure I would. I may well be too cowardly, even though I have a strong sense of what is right and wrong. Having a wife and two cats makes it easier to rationalise not getting into a situation than it would have been a few years back, too.
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On June 30 2022 04:31 Schelim wrote:
I commend your dad on his reaction, and I also commend you for your thoughts and ponderings.
I must live a very sheltered existence. I am 32 years old and have never experienced a situation like the one you described; I've heard a ton of stories like this but have never seen anything of the sort happen first-hand. I either walk around blindfolded or am very lucky. So I'm still stuck with just wondering what I would do if the situation did occur. Of course I want to say I would react the way your dad did, but I am not sure I would. I may well be too cowardly, even though I have a strong sense of what is right and wrong. Having a wife and two cats makes it easier to rationalise not getting into a situation than it would have been a few years back, too.
It's probably not that common depending on where you live... I think vast majority of the time stuff like this happens behind closed doors. First time I've had such an encounter too in 37 years. Yeah since you have a wife and dependents I imagine that would change the decision making.
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On June 24 2022 15:53 Starlightsun wrote:
A few weeks ago I was delivering some produce with my Dad, and as we were parking the car there was a domestic dispute going on in the parking lot. There was this big tattooed guy who had pushed his girlfriend to the ground, and was yelling at her and punching her car. My Dad immediately yelled out for him to stop, and he walked over and stood in front of the girl and started talking to the guy. I was afraid the guy was going to attack my Dad so I put the tray of vegetables on the ground and stood next to my Dad but luckily the guy just cussed us out and walked away.
I lived near Sherbourne Avenue and Queen Street in Toronto for three stints of four months each. On any fifteen minute walk I'd see confrontations like this going on all the time. I stayed out of them. It was impossible to assess who was at fault or who was instigating what.
I didn't consider myself "brave" or a "coward". I considered myself ruthless with how i spend my time. If I got involved in every yelling/shoving altercation I'd be 30 minutes late for work every day.
I don't have the time to get involved in every mild physical confrontation I see. Queen and Sherbourne is a fucking warzone filled with barely coherent, borderline sane/insane people. its sorta like a popular video game franchise called "Borderlands".
Statistics speak for themselves, right? Here are the crime statistics in Regent Park; In the area around Gerrard Street to Dundas Street, there is an average crime rate of 11.97 per 1000 people.
The crime against property stands at 18.53. On the South of Dundas Street to Queen Street, the area around the parliament, the average crime rate stands at 12.99 against people and the crime against property stands at 22.39.
Source: https://newcanadianlife.com/worst-neighborhoods-in-toronto-guide-for-newcomers/
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On July 01 2022 09:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2022 15:53 Starlightsun wrote:
A few weeks ago I was delivering some produce with my Dad, and as we were parking the car there was a domestic dispute going on in the parking lot. There was this big tattooed guy who had pushed his girlfriend to the ground, and was yelling at her and punching her car. My Dad immediately yelled out for him to stop, and he walked over and stood in front of the girl and started talking to the guy. I was afraid the guy was going to attack my Dad so I put the tray of vegetables on the ground and stood next to my Dad but luckily the guy just cussed us out and walked away.
I lived near Sherbourne Avenue and Queen Street in Toronto for three stints of four months each. On any fifteen minute walk I'd see confrontations like this going on all the time. I stayed out of them. It was impossible to assess who was at fault or who was instigating what. I didn't consider myself "brave" or a "coward". I considered myself ruthless with how i spend my time. If I got involved in every yelling/shoving altercation I'd be 30 minutes late for work every day. I don't have the time to get involved in every mild physical confrontation I see. Queen and Sherbourne is a fucking warzone filled with barely coherent, borderline sane/insane people. its sorta like a popular video game franchise called "Borderlands". Show nested quote +Statistics speak for themselves, right? Here are the crime statistics in Regent Park; In the area around Gerrard Street to Dundas Street, there is an average crime rate of 11.97 per 1000 people.
The crime against property stands at 18.53. On the South of Dundas Street to Queen Street, the area around the parliament, the average crime rate stands at 12.99 against people and the crime against property stands at 22.39. Source: https://newcanadianlife.com/worst-neighborhoods-in-toronto-guide-for-newcomers/
Yeah I guess if it was such a common occurrence one couldn't help but tune it out after awhile. Where I live is very tame in comparison.
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