Every time one of these comes on I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone. They're always the same, some beautiful person is frolicking through idyllic scenes of domestic bliss, while a voice in the background reads "side effects may include diarrhea, projectile vomiting, heart attack, paralysis and death". They're on the verge of being funny but I find it kind of disturbing and infuriating for some reason. Like who is watching these things and finding them appealing? Do they go and badger their doctor for a prescription? I would be pissed if I was a doctor.
Growing up I remember commercials were mostly hedonistic fun for things like toys or beer. It's unsettling to see the same paradigm being used but for the reverse side of the coin: pain and illness rather than joy and hedonism. I guess maybe it's just the shows I watch too, mostly Jeopardy and the evening news, so I guess they are targeted at the old. Even still, I find it degrading and insulting to people's dignity somehow. It seems worse than "buy this tasty gum" or "guzzle this beer". I don't know if it's my growing disgust of advertising in general or maybe squeamishness of growing old.
I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
It’s extremely bizarre surreal to me to consider even having such drug commercials at all, all we have over here are ones for cough syrups and basic painkillers etc.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
It’s really fucking insidious.
Really no coincidence that the US has such a problem with opioid painkillers, but also that rates of use of prescription anti-depressant, relaxants and stimulants far, far outweighs use in other comparable countries.
It is irrelevant that you are pissed off. What matters is that people who think they are in need of such drugs will really go above and beyond to urge their doctors to prescribe them. As for your opinion - you can always not watch them, I guess. Thus your frustration will disappear. Or something else will trigger it, idk.
I admit I usually find these commercials funny, the background voice reading out horrendous side effects always cuts in at a comical time in the onscreen paradise.
A mother cradles her child while the audience is reminded that this product can, in fact, cause full-body rashes, hemmoraging, and organ failure; there's something so twisted about it but I guess since I've seen these all my life you forget just how absurd it is in a vacuum.
It's gotta be profitable for them in the long run though, considering the age of most TV viewers now.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
I would love to hear some specific examples of that, seriously.
Overall, the US health system is insanely inefficient, spending record amounts of money with outcome measures (such as survival rates for various conditions) lagging deep behind any other developed country and that should be an argument even for a right-leaning person.
Us leftists also take issue with how immoral it is, but I accept that that's a matter of personal values that can easily differ.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
You aren't supposed to be a consumer in a medical system. You are supposed to be a patient.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
I would love to hear some specific examples of that, seriously.
Overall, the US health system is insanely inefficient, spending record amounts of money with outcome measures (such as survival rates for various conditions) lagging deep behind any other developed country and that should be an argument even for a right-leaning person.
Us leftists also take issue with how immoral it is, but I accept that that's a matter of personal values that can easily differ.
I find it most disturbing when it pertains to various prescription meds that alter the brain in some way and are prescribed for specific mental health problems post diagnosis in the rest of the world.
These side effects do not fuck around, dependency does not fuck around. Some people benefit from them but many people are needlessly on a cumulative list of meds I would refuse to take.
I don’t use the term ‘disturb’ lightly I mean it really does disturb me deeply talking to some Americans.
Remember talking to some 18 year old I’d befriended via the magic of the internet and her casually talking about the 5 meds she was on, with no diagnosis of any specific mental health condition.
Diazapem was one, few others I can’t recall but she was also on (can’t remember which one) an atypical antipsychotic which the only people I knew who were on were schizophrenics on my psych ward.
I was in the US only one time for a few days and I was absolutely baffled by those commercials I was watching from my hotel room. I have to agree with OP, there's something absolutely off-putting about them.
Then again, most advertising is cynical and fucked up, we only have come to accept the fact that they constantly insult our intelligence with obscene BS because of decades of getting used to it. Try to watch a TV ad, any ad, without your conditioning to them in the back of your mind and you'll see just how stupid they know we are.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
I would love to hear some specific examples of that, seriously.
Overall, the US health system is insanely inefficient, spending record amounts of money with outcome measures (such as survival rates for various conditions) lagging deep behind any other developed country and that should be an argument even for a right-leaning person.
Us leftists also take issue with how immoral it is, but I accept that that's a matter of personal values that can easily differ.
Just three of dozens of examples... MRI , Prolotherapy and PRP. What is really sad is the best Prolotherapy practitioner on planet earth started off in Toronto and ended up in New York.
Torontonians routinely go to upstate New York to get an MRI in a timely manner. 95% of the Canadian population lives close to the US border. Lots of people have 3rd party extended medical insurance packages that cover procedures performed in the USA.
I spend ~100 days a year in Canada servicing my Canadian customers and ~250 days a year in the USA. So I can opt to continue with Canadian medical coverage or go with US coverage.
Foreign Service Benefits underwritten by Aetna offers better medical coverage than you can get in Ontario. Ontario is Canada's most prosperous province. 10+ years Ontario's OHIP was as good as the absolute best coverage you could get in the USA. Sadly, that is no longer the case.
Foreign Services Benefits underwritten by Aetna costs about $1700 USD/year per person. I get that thru my American gf. I'm happy with it. Its better than OHIP. If that changes in the future and OHIP becomes a better option I'll alter my coverage accordingly. One of my biggest customers in Canada, in Guelph Ontario, offers a plethora of medical benefits options. So I can get a pretty sweet deal if I want one.
For now, I'm happy with Aetna and the medical coverage they give me in the USA.
On November 29 2019 03:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
You aren't supposed to be a consumer in a medical system. You are supposed to be a patient.
Where do you want me to go to get a fast MRI? I can't get it in Canada. So I go to upstate New York. Plenty of Canadians that live near New York do this. I imagine other Canadians near the border in other parts of the country do the same thing.
It is alleged that Canada has socialized medicine and USA is alleged to be an open free market. This is a vast oversimplification. 66% of all medical procedures in Canada are covered by a government single payer plan. 34% are not covered. Its a free and open market for things like Dental, Physiotherapy, and other procedures. Likewise in the USA 33% are covered by a government single payer system. 67% is free, and open market.
My gf and I did a lot of research and leg work to get the best 3rd party extended medical benefits package that we could for ourselves. We don't expect to be taken care of by the welfare state.
Smart consumers who are smart, careful and shrewd with the management of their health will live longer than dumb, impulsive, foolish people. This is natural selection occurring in real time. Welcome to the real world.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
I would love to hear some specific examples of that, seriously.
Overall, the US health system is insanely inefficient, spending record amounts of money with outcome measures (such as survival rates for various conditions) lagging deep behind any other developed country and that should be an argument even for a right-leaning person.
Us leftists also take issue with how immoral it is, but I accept that that's a matter of personal values that can easily differ.
Just three of dozens of examples... MRI , Prolotherapy and PRP. What is really sad is the best Prolotherapy practitioner on planet earth started off in Toronto and ended up in New York.
Torontonians routinely go to upstate New York to get an MRI in a timely manner. 95% of the Canadian population lives close to the US border. Lots of people have 3rd party extended medical insurance packages that cover procedures performed in the USA.
I spend ~100 days a year in Canada servicing my Canadian customers and ~250 days a year in the USA. So I can opt to continue with Canadian medical coverage or go with US coverage.
Foreign Service Benefits underwritten by Aetna offers better medical coverage than you can get in Ontario. Ontario is Canada's most prosperous province. 10+ years Ontario's OHIP was as good as the absolute best coverage you could get in the USA. Sadly, that is no longer the case.
Foreign Services Benefits underwritten by Aetna costs about $1700 USD/year per person. I get that thru my American gf. I'm happy with it. Its better than OHIP. If that changes in the future and OHIP becomes a better option I'll alter my coverage accordingly. One of my biggest customers in Canada, in Guelph Ontario, offers a plethora of medical benefits options. So I can get a pretty sweet deal if I want one.
For now, I'm happy with Aetna and the medical coverage they give me in the USA.
On November 29 2019 03:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On November 29 2019 01:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
You aren't supposed to be a consumer in a medical system. You are supposed to be a patient.
Where do you want me to go to get a fast MRI? I can't get it in Canada. So I go to upstate New York. Plenty of Canadians that live near New York do this. I imagine other Canadians near the border in other parts of the country do the same thing.
It is alleged that Canada has socialized medicine and USA is alleged to be an open free market. This is a vast oversimplification. 66% of all medical procedures in Canada are covered by a government single payer plan. 34% are not covered. Its a free and open market for things like Dental, Physiotherapy, and other procedures. Likewise in the USA 33% are covered by a government single payer system. 67% is free, and open market.
My gf and I did a lot of research and leg work to get the best 3rd party extended medical benefits package that we could for ourselves. We don't expect to be taken care of by the welfare state.
Smart consumers who are smart, careful and shrewd with the management of their health will live longer than dumb, impulsive, foolish people. This is natural selection occurring in real time. Welcome to the real world.
This is gross, being a smart consumer should have fuck all to do with your right to live.
I sincerely hope that if you ever get mugged you think to yourself that that's just the real world and natural selection naturally selecting your wallet away from you.
Incidentally as a participant in the US healthcare system I've spent actual fucking hours waiting in hospitals for the simplest shit. This is WITH decent insurance. US healthcare is just shit for the cost.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
I would love to hear some specific examples of that, seriously.
Overall, the US health system is insanely inefficient, spending record amounts of money with outcome measures (such as survival rates for various conditions) lagging deep behind any other developed country and that should be an argument even for a right-leaning person.
Us leftists also take issue with how immoral it is, but I accept that that's a matter of personal values that can easily differ.
Just three of dozens of examples... MRI , Prolotherapy and PRP. What is really sad is the best Prolotherapy practitioner on planet earth started off in Toronto and ended up in New York.
Torontonians routinely go to upstate New York to get an MRI in a timely manner. 95% of the Canadian population lives close to the US border. Lots of people have 3rd party extended medical insurance packages that cover procedures performed in the USA.
I spend ~100 days a year in Canada servicing my Canadian customers and ~250 days a year in the USA. So I can opt to continue with Canadian medical coverage or go with US coverage.
Foreign Service Benefits underwritten by Aetna offers better medical coverage than you can get in Ontario. Ontario is Canada's most prosperous province. 10+ years Ontario's OHIP was as good as the absolute best coverage you could get in the USA. Sadly, that is no longer the case.
Foreign Services Benefits underwritten by Aetna costs about $1700 USD/year per person. I get that thru my American gf. I'm happy with it. Its better than OHIP. If that changes in the future and OHIP becomes a better option I'll alter my coverage accordingly. One of my biggest customers in Canada, in Guelph Ontario, offers a plethora of medical benefits options. So I can get a pretty sweet deal if I want one.
For now, I'm happy with Aetna and the medical coverage they give me in the USA.
On November 29 2019 03:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On November 29 2019 01:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
You aren't supposed to be a consumer in a medical system. You are supposed to be a patient.
Where do you want me to go to get a fast MRI? I can't get it in Canada. So I go to upstate New York. Plenty of Canadians that live near New York do this. I imagine other Canadians near the border in other parts of the country do the same thing.
It is alleged that Canada has socialized medicine and USA is alleged to be an open free market. This is a vast oversimplification. 66% of all medical procedures in Canada are covered by a government single payer plan. 34% are not covered. Its a free and open market for things like Dental, Physiotherapy, and other procedures. Likewise in the USA 33% are covered by a government single payer system. 67% is free, and open market.
My gf and I did a lot of research and leg work to get the best 3rd party extended medical benefits package that we could for ourselves. We don't expect to be taken care of by the welfare state.
Smart consumers who are smart, careful and shrewd with the management of their health will live longer than dumb, impulsive, foolish people. This is natural selection occurring in real time. Welcome to the real world.
This is gross, being a smart consumer should have fuck all to do with your right to live.
I sincerely hope that if you ever get mugged you think to yourself that that's just the real world and natural selection naturally selecting your wallet away from you.
Incidentally as a participant in the US healthcare system I've spent actual fucking hours waiting in hospitals for the simplest shit. This is WITH decent insurance. US healthcare is just shit for the cost.
my Aetna package is better than Ontario, Canada's OHIP. OHIP is better than Kaiser though. Several of my American gf's relatives go with Kaiser because its easy and convenient. They know its crap... they don't care. LOL.
If someone doesn't take the management of their health seriously... there is nothing a government paid medical person can do.
Roy Halladay couldn't get medical and accident insurance because he liked to fly custom hobby airplanes that he repaired and maintained himself. Again, its a hobby its not his profession. He died in a plane crash. It is sad he is dead... but he was wreckless with his health and didn't deserve insurance due to his silly lifestyle choices.
On November 30 2019 09:15 Wombat_NI wrote: Oh fuck off.
its exactly this attitude that allows a coverage package like the one Kaiser offers to exist. If many more Americans took their health seriously a "1 stop shop for every medical need" would not exist. Its why Kaiser exists and also why obesity in the USA continues to climb to epidemic levels.
Again, when bad things inevitably happen to you I hope you're able to see it in this light, the bad things happen because you deserve them to happen to you.
Or maybe you can develop a world view that takes factors into account beyond personal responsibility, such as someone born with a disease that systematically financially dooms them because American for profit healthcare is fucked. I'm not sure how good diet and exercise is supposed to help someone who needs an expensive drug to live, but I suppose you think they deserve to die, natural selection in favor of the all important monied.
It takes that weird sort of privilege to be able to see US healthcare in such a positive light
The US whose systems actually do incentivise and benefit a ‘savvy consumer’ over comparable socialised healthcare systems and yet has higher obesity rates, opioid addictions and unnecessary dependency on psychiatric medication than basically all other comparable countries?
People should take agency over their health more regardless of the system underpinning it, which I agree with entirely, you can make the point without sounding like a social Darwinist.
Aside from the pesky issue of being poor’ that afflicts people, bad information and snake oil salesmen abound, and even if they didn’t some people aren’t bright enough to manage conditions, I’ve lived with enough of such people. Alternatively some people just don’t have 20/20 foresight, a superpower I most certainly lack.
I manage my health rather well these days, doesn’t particularly matter when it comes to insurance related things. Despite even when committed/sectioned and at my worst never being suicidal (too much of an ego if nothing else), stuff like travel insurance is marked up hugely because of risks of behaviours I don’t partake in, and bipolar disorder having the highest suicide rate of basically all mental disorders. Doesn’t matter one iota how well I manage myself in this specific instance.
Again I agree people should manage their health better, mental or physical, regardless of what healthcare system is in place it reduces strain, but the content and tone of your post is profoundly insulting to anyone who personally, knows, or doesn’t know but has basic empathetic skills somebody who has had health problems that were not due to some lack of intelligence or savvy.
I’d have to look into the specifics but I imagine the yank equivalent of Wombat in some parallel universe would have been fuuuuuuccccked if my health issues were transplanted over there, especially pre-ACA.
Yankbat ‘Hm I’m like 25 and broke and have a kid just arrived, I’m in pretty good health so I can skimp on this right now though, I’m a savvy consumer so this makes sense with the financial strain, especially as my partner is finishing her Masters degree so I’m the sole earner. With the information I’m privy to this is actually the prudent course of action’.
*Spends a year in hospital for an undiagnosed condition that numerous doctors I’d sought specifically over concerns on said condition had misdiagnosed and said wasn’t the case*
On November 30 2019 09:41 Zambrah wrote: Again, when bad things inevitably happen to you I hope you're able to see it in this light, the bad things happen because you deserve them to happen to you.
Or maybe you can develop a world view that takes factors into account beyond personal responsibility, such as someone born with a disease that systematically financially dooms them because American for profit healthcare is fucked. I'm not sure how good diet and exercise is supposed to help someone who needs an expensive drug to live, but I suppose you think they deserve to die, natural selection in favor of the all important monied.
It takes that weird sort of privilege to be able to see US healthcare in such a positive light
No one has let me know where I go for a timely MRI. Right now, my best option is Buffalo MRI in the United States of America.
US Healthcare can't be judged in such a simplistic way as "positive" or "negative". For me, it is the best option, right now.
US Healthcare operates in much the same way 33% of the Canadian healthcare system does. Its paid via 3rd party extended medical benefits insurers or cash. Canadians have to make the same savvy, shrewd decisions that Americans do when it comes to dental care, physiotherapy, eye care and eye exams, casts, splints, etc, etc.
I am taking the best options possible for me and my family. If a Canadian option, namely OHIP, were the best option as it was 10 years ago I'd still be using it.
The coverage Aetna gives me has not dramatically improved over the past 10 years. OHIP has gotten worse. I'm reacting accordingly.
On November 30 2019 10:03 Wombat_NI wrote: The US whose systems actually do incentivise and benefit a ‘savvy consumer’ over comparable socialised healthcare systems and yet has higher obesity rates, opioid addictions and unnecessary dependency on psychiatric medication than basically all other comparable countries?
People should take agency over their health more regardless of the system underpinning it, which I agree with entirely, you can make the point without sounding like a social Darwinist.
so does the Canadian system for 33% of all medical procedures. People claiming Canada has "socialized medicine" are making an oversimplified statement. A great many medical procedures and expenses are not covered by the government.
Canadians deal with this by getting private insurance plans that are often offered by the same companies that offer medical insurance plans to Americans.
Doctor shopping is also prevalent in Ontario, Canada. This is a consumer activity where the consumer picks the best general practitioner for their needs. This process is all about being ruthless and savvy and smart.
Why does it have to be ruthless, and savvy to deal with your health? Impoverished people don't have the luxury of growing up in situations where they develop that sort of savvy. People born with debilitating diseases have to be ruthless because American healthcare (and just about every form of insurance) exists to try and screw you out of money if they can do it, and a big tool of how they'll do it relies on that lack of common savvy.
I can read and understand an insurance contract because I've worked in insurance and gotten licensed to understand that shit, but most people haven't and don't know.
A system that dictates something so fundamentally important shouldn't rely on fucking RUTHLESSNESS to function fairly.
The only RUTHLESSNESS I want to see is at the gallows and guillotines when the billionaires refuse to relinquish their wealth.
I live in a country with fully socialized medicine - everyone pays insurance as mandated by the state and everyone gets the same treatment. If you need to get an MRI, you get it when needed - if you can wait, you have to wait. I seriously wonder what your condition is that you need a "timely MRI" and whether it really could not wait without serious consequences and whether you won't be given it faster if you actually needed it that fast.
I get every medical expense paid by the state insurance system, barring some trivial copay for medicines and even that has a yearly cap which is a small fraction of the average income. All of that is automatically affordable to everyone with an income, because you pay the insurance as a fraction of income (it's essentially a tax) so poor people pay less. If you are unemployed, you can get the state to pay the insurance for you, provided you are looking for jobs; kids and elderly are covered by the state as well.
This is how a humane medical system works. If you are rich enough, sure there are US plans that provide you with the same amount of services (I have a hard time believing it's "better" because I get pretty much everything already), but if you are poor, you can't afford those, you are forced to plans with significant copays and many people get financially ruined by unexpected illnesses. There is nothing relevant in how "savvy" you are, because a lot of serious diseases happen completely at random, even many types of cancer are mostly random. In the US system, you get punished for bad luck and the punishment may be a death penalty if you can't afford the right treatment. This has no place in civilized society.
I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
On November 30 2019 22:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
Boy oh boy, pulling the classic "I could of engaged intelligently but instead I realized that I have put x poster into a box that allows me to easily turn every one of their arguments into a strawman based on their assigned negative identity I've projected onto them."
Really is conducive to the discussion being had. Great stuff.
On November 30 2019 22:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
Boy oh boy, pulling the classic "I could of engaged intelligently but instead I realized that I have put x poster into a box that allows me to easily turn every one of their arguments into a strawman based on their assigned negative identity I've projected onto them."
Really is conducive to the discussion being had. Great stuff.
To be fair, his posts in this thread only may discourage many people from replying. On the other hand, I also think that the only way to deal with people like JJR is to try to engage them in a civil way, so I am disappointed that DMCD gave up on him. I don't think JJR is a bad person, he is just so deeply unwilling to see world from any other perspective than his own, which seems to be quite privileged one.
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
I would love to hear some specific examples of that, seriously.
Overall, the US health system is insanely inefficient, spending record amounts of money with outcome measures (such as survival rates for various conditions) lagging deep behind any other developed country and that should be an argument even for a right-leaning person.
Us leftists also take issue with how immoral it is, but I accept that that's a matter of personal values that can easily differ.
Just three of dozens of examples... MRI , Prolotherapy and PRP. What is really sad is the best Prolotherapy practitioner on planet earth started off in Toronto and ended up in New York.
Torontonians routinely go to upstate New York to get an MRI in a timely manner. 95% of the Canadian population lives close to the US border. Lots of people have 3rd party extended medical insurance packages that cover procedures performed in the USA.
I spend ~100 days a year in Canada servicing my Canadian customers and ~250 days a year in the USA. So I can opt to continue with Canadian medical coverage or go with US coverage.
Foreign Service Benefits underwritten by Aetna offers better medical coverage than you can get in Ontario. Ontario is Canada's most prosperous province. 10+ years Ontario's OHIP was as good as the absolute best coverage you could get in the USA. Sadly, that is no longer the case.
Foreign Services Benefits underwritten by Aetna costs about $1700 USD/year per person. I get that thru my American gf. I'm happy with it. Its better than OHIP. If that changes in the future and OHIP becomes a better option I'll alter my coverage accordingly. One of my biggest customers in Canada, in Guelph Ontario, offers a plethora of medical benefits options. So I can get a pretty sweet deal if I want one.
For now, I'm happy with Aetna and the medical coverage they give me in the USA.
On November 29 2019 03:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On November 29 2019 01:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
On November 28 2019 21:56 opisska wrote: I presume you live in the US? Because I have never seen such thing in Europe, I am not even sure it's legal. Generally, this is only a symptom of how fucked up the US for-profit medical system is.
mmmm part of it is fucked up. A shrewd, savvy consumer can use the medical system for great results as well.
You aren't supposed to be a consumer in a medical system. You are supposed to be a patient.
Where do you want me to go to get a fast MRI? I can't get it in Canada. So I go to upstate New York. Plenty of Canadians that live near New York do this. I imagine other Canadians near the border in other parts of the country do the same thing.
It is alleged that Canada has socialized medicine and USA is alleged to be an open free market. This is a vast oversimplification. 66% of all medical procedures in Canada are covered by a government single payer plan. 34% are not covered. Its a free and open market for things like Dental, Physiotherapy, and other procedures. Likewise in the USA 33% are covered by a government single payer system. 67% is free, and open market.
My gf and I did a lot of research and leg work to get the best 3rd party extended medical benefits package that we could for ourselves. We don't expect to be taken care of by the welfare state.
Smart consumers who are smart, careful and shrewd with the management of their health will live longer than dumb, impulsive, foolish people. This is natural selection occurring in real time. Welcome to the real world.
You're right that Canadian Health Care doesn't cover every surgery or procedure, but you're not necessarily right that the procedures you're suggesting have a net positive health impact. For private 'medicine' in Canada is often riddled with confusing information and cosmetic procedures being sold as medical necessities. The nice thing about Canadian Health Care is that at least you know if it's covered by our health care it has probably been medically validated and there are systemic protections in place to limit corruption. Because the purpose of Canadian Health Care is to keep as healthy a working force as possible, not to make ludicrous profits mutilating people and giving them chronic pain because you scared them into thinking that their lives were going to be miserable if they didn't do what you said. Procedures without sufficient medical data cannot be backed by the Canadian government, what a tragedy. I'm sure there's some things with medical data that are too expensive to back, or procedures that would be more effective if they could be done in a more timely fashion but I'll take that any day over private medicine where you have no idea if you're being lied to or not.
On November 30 2019 22:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
Boy oh boy, pulling the classic "I could of engaged intelligently but instead I realized that I have put x poster into a box that allows me to easily turn every one of their arguments into a strawman based on their assigned negative identity I've projected onto them."
Really is conducive to the discussion being had. Great stuff.
To be fair, his posts in this thread only may discourage many people from replying. On the other hand, I also think that the only way to deal with people like JJR is to try to engage them in a civil way, so I am disappointed that DMCD gave up on him. I don't think JJR is a bad person, he is just so deeply unwilling to see world from any other perspective than his own, which seems to be quite privileged one.
You're certainly not wrong that it's difficult to see the world in a different way than through the lens that your environment has given you. I suspect it's the source of so much of the conflict in the TL political sphere. I hadn't chimed into the discussion because I'm not particularly well informed on the extremely complex differences medical systems of the world. In my life, private health care has worked quickly, effectively, and been very human-centered. I feel like I am genuinely well cared for and treated well even though its a capitalistic system. Any experiences with governmental clinics have been far worse.
Of course, not everyone is as fortunate as me, so I don't go around saying "socialized medicine bad, private healthcare good get recked kids." I think if there could be a system where a robust social safety net provides free healthcare to the lower-income community, while a private healthcare system is allowed to flourish and compete for those who can afford it, The best of both systems could be combined. I appreciate the points that Jimmy was making because it adds another perspective to the disussion, maybe private healthcare has value in certain circumstances, but certainly not for the down and out population.
What is really frustrating to me is the behavior that people have which makes them think because they associate a certain poster with x views, they have a free pass to add low quality digs at them and even go the trouble to post " I was going to reply, but then I saw it was you ha!" which is just developed form of straw-manning.
On November 30 2019 22:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
Boy oh boy, pulling the classic "I could of engaged intelligently but instead I realized that I have put x poster into a box that allows me to easily turn every one of their arguments into a strawman based on their assigned negative identity I've projected onto them."
Really is conducive to the discussion being had. Great stuff.
Are you really expecting an intelligent conversation with someone who writes
"Smart consumers who are smart, careful and shrewd with the management of their health will live longer than dumb, impulsive, foolish people. This is natural selection occurring in real time. Welcome to the real world."
as a response to these American depression drug ads?
I originally responded to him without looking at his name. I was writing about how his so called shrewd consumer is just simply hoping he wouldn't get serverely injured in USA and a host of other stuff about how I am less reliant than he is on medical care, whilst being happy that others too in my country can receive medical care even though in essence I am paying for others treatment who wouldn't normally be able to avoid it and social responsibility and a whole load of other stuff.
But then looking at his name, I remembered that this was a guy who claims to be able to read the mind of various Blizzard CEO and figures, who make up alt accounts to run whole imaginary conversations. So I deleted it. I don't need to get in another argument. There's no point to replying to someone who is either a troll or just makes up alt reality stories in his head.
On November 30 2019 22:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
Boy oh boy, pulling the classic "I could of engaged intelligently but instead I realized that I have put x poster into a box that allows me to easily turn every one of their arguments into a strawman based on their assigned negative identity I've projected onto them."
Really is conducive to the discussion being had. Great stuff.
To be fair, his posts in this thread only may discourage many people from replying. On the other hand, I also think that the only way to deal with people like JJR is to try to engage them in a civil way, so I am disappointed that DMCD gave up on him. I don't think JJR is a bad person, he is just so deeply unwilling to see world from any other perspective than his own, which seems to be quite privileged one.
You're certainly not wrong that it's difficult to see the world in a different way than through the lens that your environment has given you. I suspect it's the source of so much of the conflict in the TL political sphere. I hadn't chimed into the discussion because I'm not particularly well informed on the extremely complex differences medical systems of the world. In my life, private health care has worked quickly, effectively, and been very human-centered. I feel like I am genuinely well cared for and treated well even though its a capitalistic system. Any experiences with governmental clinics have been far worse.
Of course, not everyone is as fortunate as me, so I don't go around saying "socialized medicine bad, private healthcare good get recked kids." I think if there could be a system where a robust social safety net provides free healthcare to the lower-income community, while a private healthcare system is allowed to flourish and compete for those who can afford it, The best of both systems could be combined. I appreciate the points that Jimmy was making because it adds another perspective to the disussion, maybe private healthcare has value in certain circumstances, but certainly not for the down and out population.
What is really frustrating to me is the behavior that people have which makes them think because they associate a certain poster with x views, they have a free pass to add low quality digs at them and even go the trouble to post " I was going to reply, but then I saw it was you ha!" which is just developed form of straw-manning.
Yes let’s engage earnestly with ‘if you make bad decisions you deserve to die’ rhetoric.
That system does exist in some form in a bunch of places, and despite my political leanings I think it’s a good blend when the mix is right.
Entirely free everything and people clog up the system with all sorts of bollocks that doesn’t need medical attention, because it’s free, and despite protestations from some that does bring a degree of entitlement and inefficient use of medical resources. Which ends up in waiting lists that impact those in need of said resources, this absolutely is an issue.
But one can make those points without phrasing it in a way that is profoundly insulting to people of varying circumstances.
Also not sure how we got here anyway, on a blog about American advertisements for said drugs, in a country with statistically measured widespread issues of abuse of said drugs to a discussion about the ills of socialised medicine.
It's always confused me whenever I saw these kinds of commercials play on American networks. It's like peering into a corporate dystopia and mostly just feels gross.
On November 30 2019 06:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Smart consumers who are smart, careful and shrewd with the management of their health will live longer than dumb, impulsive, foolish people. This is natural selection occurring in real time. Welcome to the real world.
On November 30 2019 22:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
Boy oh boy, pulling the classic "I could of engaged intelligently but instead I realized that I have put x poster into a box that allows me to easily turn every one of their arguments into a strawman based on their assigned negative identity I've projected onto them."
Really is conducive to the discussion being had. Great stuff.
To be fair, his posts in this thread only may discourage many people from replying. On the other hand, I also think that the only way to deal with people like JJR is to try to engage them in a civil way, so I am disappointed that DMCD gave up on him. I don't think JJR is a bad person, he is just so deeply unwilling to see world from any other perspective than his own, which seems to be quite privileged one.
You're certainly not wrong that it's difficult to see the world in a different way than through the lens that your environment has given you. I suspect it's the source of so much of the conflict in the TL political sphere. I hadn't chimed into the discussion because I'm not particularly well informed on the extremely complex differences medical systems of the world. In my life, private health care has worked quickly, effectively, and been very human-centered. I feel like I am genuinely well cared for and treated well even though its a capitalistic system. Any experiences with governmental clinics have been far worse.
Of course, not everyone is as fortunate as me, so I don't go around saying "socialized medicine bad, private healthcare good get recked kids." I think if there could be a system where a robust social safety net provides free healthcare to the lower-income community, while a private healthcare system is allowed to flourish and compete for those who can afford it, The best of both systems could be combined. I appreciate the points that Jimmy was making because it adds another perspective to the disussion, maybe private healthcare has value in certain circumstances, but certainly not for the down and out population.
What is really frustrating to me is the behavior that people have which makes them think because they associate a certain poster with x views, they have a free pass to add low quality digs at them and even go the trouble to post " I was going to reply, but then I saw it was you ha!" which is just developed form of straw-manning.
I can see how your idea of the system makes perfect sense at first sight, but there is an important point that it really needs to work in the way that everyone must compulsorily pay for the public part, even if they don't plan on using it and yhe contribution needs to be a tax on your income, not flat fee. The problem is that if we don't want people dieing or getting bankrupt we need a huge amount of solidarity and redistribution. Simply said: the ill and the poor don't make collectively enough money to fund their healthcare. A working public system needs the healthy and the rich - if you allow them to "escape" in their own world, the heatlhcare of the rest collapses. If we just accept that the "health insurance" thing i makes no sense and stop pretending it's not a tax, then I can easily imagine privatr systems above it and this is actually what works in many places in Europe anyway.
On November 30 2019 22:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
Boy oh boy, pulling the classic "I could of engaged intelligently but instead I realized that I have put x poster into a box that allows me to easily turn every one of their arguments into a strawman based on their assigned negative identity I've projected onto them."
Really is conducive to the discussion being had. Great stuff.
To be fair, his posts in this thread only may discourage many people from replying. On the other hand, I also think that the only way to deal with people like JJR is to try to engage them in a civil way, so I am disappointed that DMCD gave up on him. I don't think JJR is a bad person, he is just so deeply unwilling to see world from any other perspective than his own, which seems to be quite privileged one.
You're certainly not wrong that it's difficult to see the world in a different way than through the lens that your environment has given you. I suspect it's the source of so much of the conflict in the TL political sphere. I hadn't chimed into the discussion because I'm not particularly well informed on the extremely complex differences medical systems of the world. In my life, private health care has worked quickly, effectively, and been very human-centered. I feel like I am genuinely well cared for and treated well even though its a capitalistic system. Any experiences with governmental clinics have been far worse.
Of course, not everyone is as fortunate as me, so I don't go around saying "socialized medicine bad, private healthcare good get recked kids." I think if there could be a system where a robust social safety net provides free healthcare to the lower-income community, while a private healthcare system is allowed to flourish and compete for those who can afford it, The best of both systems could be combined. I appreciate the points that Jimmy was making because it adds another perspective to the disussion, maybe private healthcare has value in certain circumstances, but certainly not for the down and out population.
What is really frustrating to me is the behavior that people have which makes them think because they associate a certain poster with x views, they have a free pass to add low quality digs at them and even go the trouble to post " I was going to reply, but then I saw it was you ha!" which is just developed form of straw-manning.
I can see how your idea of the system makes perfect sense at first sight, but there is an important point that it really needs to work in the way that everyone must compulsorily pay for the public part, even if they don't plan on using it and yhe contribution needs to be a tax on your income, not flat fee. The problem is that if we don't want people dieing or getting bankrupt we need a huge amount of solidarity and redistribution. Simply said: the ill and the poor don't make collectively enough money to fund their healthcare. A working public system needs the healthy and the rich - if you allow them to "escape" in their own world, the heatlhcare of the rest collapses. If we just accept that the "health insurance" thing i makes no sense and stop pretending it's not a tax, then I can easily imagine privatr systems above it and this is actually what works in many places in Europe anyway.
Indeed, although the rich aren’t really doing the poor a favour it’s mutually beneficial and suits the abstract interests of the state too.
Healthcare expenditure isn’t a flat line across age demographics, it’s generally higher with infant care and also peaks sharply in old age when we get into the dementia risk zone.
The wealthy tend to live a fair bit longer into that zone by virtue of the other advantages of their wealth, but costs of care if one develops dementia and doesn’t die quickly are massive. Complicated further as they aren’t lucid enough to be in charge of their own financial affairs.
At least in the UK smokers actually save the NHS money because the sales tax on cigarettes is huge, but also they tend to die before the dementia risk zone much more often.
Which is just a factoid I thought I’d put in, because I’ve had the ‘Why should the NHS pay for your bad choices?’ argument thrown at me in the past so I think people’s understanding of the facts and costs of the system the frequently wrong.
As a (far too heavy) smoker I’m happy to pay that extra sales tax as it’s appropriate for a nationalised health service to recoup from me and a bad life choice.
Any attempts to tax booze or fatty foods are met with a load of complaining and whining which frustrates me. Booze adds both a lot of expense on to the NHS, but also has an associated societal cost with violence, traffic accidents etc too.
On November 30 2019 22:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I was going to write a long reply but deleted it all when I realised it was jimmyjraynor . Says it all really.
Also that Cymbalta advert. WTF, that kind of thing would be illegal in about 3 different ways here. Also at one point the subtitles on the screen says "tell your doctor if you are pregnant or nursing" but the voiceover is "tell your doctor right away if your depression worsens."
Boy oh boy, pulling the classic "I could of engaged intelligently but instead I realized that I have put x poster into a box that allows me to easily turn every one of their arguments into a strawman based on their assigned negative identity I've projected onto them."
Really is conducive to the discussion being had. Great stuff.
To be fair, his posts in this thread only may discourage many people from replying. On the other hand, I also think that the only way to deal with people like JJR is to try to engage them in a civil way, so I am disappointed that DMCD gave up on him. I don't think JJR is a bad person, he is just so deeply unwilling to see world from any other perspective than his own, which seems to be quite privileged one.
You're certainly not wrong that it's difficult to see the world in a different way than through the lens that your environment has given you. I suspect it's the source of so much of the conflict in the TL political sphere. I hadn't chimed into the discussion because I'm not particularly well informed on the extremely complex differences medical systems of the world. In my life, private health care has worked quickly, effectively, and been very human-centered. I feel like I am genuinely well cared for and treated well even though its a capitalistic system. Any experiences with governmental clinics have been far worse.
Of course, not everyone is as fortunate as me, so I don't go around saying "socialized medicine bad, private healthcare good get recked kids." I think if there could be a system where a robust social safety net provides free healthcare to the lower-income community, while a private healthcare system is allowed to flourish and compete for those who can afford it, The best of both systems could be combined. I appreciate the points that Jimmy was making because it adds another perspective to the disussion, maybe private healthcare has value in certain circumstances, but certainly not for the down and out population.
What is really frustrating to me is the behavior that people have which makes them think because they associate a certain poster with x views, they have a free pass to add low quality digs at them and even go the trouble to post " I was going to reply, but then I saw it was you ha!" which is just developed form of straw-manning.
Yes let’s engage earnestly with ‘if you make bad decisions you deserve to die’ rhetoric.
That system does exist in some form in a bunch of places, and despite my political leanings I think it’s a good blend when the mix is right.
Entirely free everything and people clog up the system with all sorts of bollocks that doesn’t need medical attention, because it’s free, and despite protestations from some that does bring a degree of entitlement and inefficient use of medical resources. Which ends up in waiting lists that impact those in need of said resources, this absolutely is an issue.
But one can make those points without phrasing it in a way that is profoundly insulting to people of varying circumstances.
Also not sure how we got here anyway, on a blog about American advertisements for said drugs, in a country with statistically measured widespread issues of abuse of said drugs to a discussion about the ills of socialised medicine.
I don't think free healthcare leads to excessive clogging, most people don't go to the doctor if they're fine, and being able to just go to the doctor when you feel unwell helps promote preventative care compared to the American way where we don't go to the doctor unless it's in an ambulance.
Most Canadians I know tell me if they need to see the doctor they just go, they don't wait in crazy lines or anything beyond the pale half hour wait or so sometimes.
People don't want to dick around at the doctor forever, theyd rather not go if they don't have to, if they're sick less and able to go for small easily treated stuff once in a while compared to going just the once for something that demands immediate and serious treatment money, time, lives all get saved.
The only version of US healthcare that's half decent is the rich people kind. Last time I had to go to the hospital I waited 3 hours for a doctor to show up. That's the kind of thing that proponents of US healthcare would say happens in OTHER countries where they spend less on healthcare.
The issue stems from the extremely short-sighted yet seemingly sensical idea that self-worth = your net worth.
Premise: I have more money than others because I am a better person (smarter, stronger, more savvy, etc.).
Premise: People deserve to have more than those they are better than.
Given: Universal health care disproportionately helps the poor over non-poor.
Given: Lack of private health care disables the ability to have ones money play a role in quality of health care.
Conclusion: If universal health care and removal of PHC are implemented, I am punished for being a better person, and those who are worse than me are rewarded. Due to premise 2, this is nonsensical.
Conclusion: The most just/fair system is one that is the most dependent on money/“finding good deals”, as this maximally rewards the person based on how good they are.
The trick is to address the two premises. JJR, not only is it conceivable but I’d argue highly probable that there exists an individual who is “better” than you in all qualities that you define the word, with the exception that they have less money than you.
EDIT-Wombat and GreenHorizons posts on page 1921 in US Politics thread touch on this as well.
EPT
